GM Doesn't have enough cash to make it through a few months

[mr.slave]

dont spend billions of dollars on dinosaur companies.

give it to a new electric car company or something and see what they can fucking do with it.

[Type R]

Originally Posted by OffroadZuki

1. Thats why I said tested, not produced. If you want more info, do some research yourself.

too lazy...I don't give a crap about the upcoming Camaro..I just wish you said the WHOLE story, not just the part that suited you

Nevertheless.. Lets do the math for 09 then.

09 Honda Civic Si MSRP: $26,680 (before incentives)
09 Chevrolet Cobalt SS MSRP: $26,570 (before incentives)

I thought you said the GM garbage is cheaper? I didn't think $90 really factored into most people buying a new vehicle...

1. Apparently you are too lazy to read what I posted. I said tested, not producing (second time I've had to clarify this)

2. First comparison was N/A Cobalt SS, or G5 GT (2.4L non supercharged) and it still nipped at the heals of the honda. So we again are talking thousands. And for $90 less than a honda civic, hell yea i'd buy a turbo'd cobalt.

As for the GM garbage comment. Time to give away your S10 (cuz its resale value must suck) and slap a Type R badge to your ass, and VTEC logo on your shoes, cuz you are a Honda fanboi..

This debate has turned childish

[Fastam]

Originally Posted by dustinb

That's not news at all. Been going on since pre WW2. But come on, the North American markets are given gifts all the time. Look at the 25 Billion dollar money that is going to be given to the big three to help them develop more environmentally friendly cars. Wtf is that? It all comes down to the fact that Japan had a way better business model then North America did/does, and the US fucked it all up when they forced Japan to mess with their currency.

How did the USA force Japan to undervavle their own currency? That was all the Japanese' idea.

[Timpo]

Originally Posted by dustinb

Here it is, the US government is bailing them out, but with a lot less money, and not from the 700 billion bailout package, but instead from the package that was supposed to help them develop fuel efficient cars... so instead of developing fuel efficient cars, they're getting the money to do whatever they want with essentially... I'm sure there's some terms, like scaling the operations down a lot. Anyways, I'm not surprised, but I am at the same time. Probably going to be a lot of people screaming bloody murder.
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/1...s-autoaid.html

stupid decision...

seriously, might as well give those money to Toyota or Honda, let them get even bigger and hire more American nation, they have much better understanding of car business, that would be better for American economy.

If they give that much of money to the Big 3, they're pretty much draining it for nothing.

60% of American already said no to the bailout, I don't understand how they made that decision.

[Type R]

Because the loss of the Big 3 would multiply the economic blow that the US is already going through. We are talking Trillions of dollars in a 10 year windfall. People simply don't realise how much they rely on the Auto industry and how much it fuels the American (and pretty much any) economy.

[OffroadZuki]

Originally Posted by Type R

Because the loss of the Big 3 would multiply the economic blow that the US is already going through. We are talking Trillions of dollars in a 10 year windfall. People simply don't realise how much they rely on the Auto industry and how much it fuels the American (and pretty much any) economy.

That's utter bullshit. It's not like all the support industries would disappear and those people would never get jobs. It's like when a pulp mill or a mine closes down. Sure it's shitty, but people move on, move to a new town and start a new life.

Let the Big 3 fend for themselves.

[OffroadZuki]

Originally Posted by Timpo

stupid decision...

seriously, might as well give those money to Toyota or Honda, let them get even bigger and hire more American nation, they have much better understanding of car business, that would be better for American economy.

If they give that much of money to the Big 3, they're pretty much draining it for nothing.

60% of American already said no to the bailout, I don't understand how they made that decision.

Koichi...you're completely right.

[OffroadZuki]

Originally Posted by Type R

As for the GM garbage comment. Time to give away your S10 (cuz its resale value must suck) and slap a Type R badge to your ass, and VTEC logo on your shoes, cuz you are a Honda fanboi..

This debate has turned childish

Think comments like that have anything to do with it? And that's exactly it, though...I LOVE my S10, but it's like a parent loving a retarded child with three noses and an IQ of 18.

By the way, THANK YOU for bringing up the resale comment. I've neglected to mention that...sure your G5 GT is a few bucks cheaper than an Si, but if you wanna sell it anytime in the next 20 yrs, you'll sell it for peanuts compared to a CivAk (equipped with VTEC!)

You've owned ONE GM that you got while being a corporate slave. I've owned half a dozen...so if I've owned a whole bunch and I STILL think higher of Honda, that should tell you something.

By the way...I drove a Kia Rio today and (despite its many shortcomings) I liked it better than the Chevy Aveo. That's pretty sad.

[Fastam]

Actually its not BS. Many economists in the USA have said that if GM goes down, pretty much the entire US auto industry goes with it. GM ,Ford, Chyrsler and even Honda and Toyota all share some US suppliers. GM is by far the largest buyer from these suppliers. If GM goes down , these suppliers will fail too, the loss of GM buying their products would be too much of a blow to continue.


http://paultan.org/archives/2008/11/...-gm-collapses/
Yes its a GM video, but its true.

[Type R]

Originally Posted by OffroadZuki

That's utter bullshit. It's not like all the support industries would disappear and those people would never get jobs. It's like when a pulp mill or a mine closes down. Sure it's shitty, but people move on, move to a new town and start a new life.

Let the Big 3 fend for themselves.

If you believe that, than you are a bigger idiot than I thought. Heres the scenario:

Big 3 closes their doors. Hundreds of thousands of jobs are lost (GM alone employs 252,000 people worldwide today). Suppliers shut their doors (since the 3 sub contract to seperate parts suppliers for every aspect of their vehicles) so more jobs lost. Lost jobs mean loss of economy (no one spending money). Thats a loss of tax dollars. Factor in loss of taxes on fuel, new car sales, used car sales (can't tax used cars through private sales). Thousands of dealerships close their doors, so thousands more jobs lost (sales).

100s of thousands of unemployed people look to social security, EI, and welfare to pay bills. Think of the strain that would cause on an already taxed system.

You honestly think the import companies can soak that up? Again, do your research, cuz you have a bad habit of running your mouth without being informed. If it was as petty as you are letting on, congress wouldn't give it a second thought.

http://gmfactsandfiction.com/

[OffroadZuki]

Originally Posted by mr.slave

dont spend billions of dollars on dinosaur companies.

give it to a new electric car company or something and see what they can fucking do with it.

Again, a great idea. Those billions of dollars they're throwing down the drain would subsidize someone like Tesla (who's working on a 4 door electric car, in addition to their roadster) a very happy and prosperous company that could churn out impressive cars.

Oh...and it would get the Yanks off the foreign oil they love to hate...

[Type R]

Originally Posted by OffroadZuki

Think comments like that have anything to do with it? And that's exactly it, though...I LOVE my S10, but it's like a parent loving a retarded child with three noses and an IQ of 18.

By the way, THANK YOU for bringing up the resale comment. I've neglected to mention that...sure your G5 GT is a few bucks cheaper than an Si, but if you wanna sell it anytime in the next 20 yrs, you'll sell it for peanuts compared to a CivAk (equipped with VTEC!)

You've owned ONE GM that you got while being a corporate slave. I've owned half a dozen...so if I've owned a whole bunch and I STILL think higher of Honda, that should tell you something.

By the way...I drove a Kia Rio today and (despite its many shortcomings) I liked it better than the Chevy Aveo. That's pretty sad.

Resale sucks on Hondas too, I was screwed twice by that whole myth. Hondas have a street following among kids, they don't book as well as you would think.

Originally Posted by Fastam

How did the USA force Japan to undervavle their own currency? That was all the Japanese' idea.

In 1985, the United States and some European countries forced Japan to appreciate its currency by 35-50%. Consequently the cost of exports rose dramatically, and screwed Japan pretty bad.

[Timpo]

ok, i apologize for my ignorance, but can someone explain this to me? why do people say Japanese and European companies will suffer for parts or suppliers if the Big 3 goes down?

here is an example, let's say momo, they make steering wheels.
(I am just using this as an example, i know they probably use other company's steering wheel)
GM collapses, momo lose business from GM, but that just means momo will get more business from Honda and Toyota instead.

here is why,

for example, people who are thinking about buying Chevy Cobalt right now, well if GM goes down, those people won't give up buying cars, they will just look for an alternative. Perhaps Mazda 3 or Civic.
in this case, the number of steering wheels sold does not change. momo will just sell the steering wheel to other company anyways.

another example, same thing as spark plugs. If NGK(the company who makes spark plugs) lose millions of $ of potential business from Big 3, but that just means European or Japanese company will buy more spark plugs because those car makers are now selling cars to potential domestic car buyers.

Same thing as companies who sell raw material, like companies who sell steel, aluminum, copper, iron, glass, whatever, if they lose millions of $$ business from GM, Ford and Chrysler, they will get more business from other companies anyways. why do they get more business from other companies? as I said, people who were looking for Cobalt will settle with Civic, people who were looking for Cadillac will settle with Lexus or Mercedes.

I do not think the total number of cars sold will change just because the Big 3 collapse. Maybe a little, but not that significantly. Maybe some diesel truck market, but other than that, not really.

so yeah....I know it's not that simple, but I still think the suppliers would not hurt as much as manufactures(GM, Ford and Chrysler).

I know the total numbers of car sales are decreasing due to downturn of global economy, but that just means there isn't enough market space for all car manufactures that exist right now.

[OffroadZuki]

Originally Posted by Type R

Resale sucks on Hondas too, I was screwed twice by that whole myth. Hondas have a street following among kids, they don't book as well as you would think.

you always lose bad on modified cars. But apples to apples. Look up the resale value for something like an '01 Civic and an '01 Cavalier and lemme know what you find

[cococly]

Originally Posted by Timpo

ok, i apologize for my ignorance, but can someone explain this to me? why do people say Japanese and European companies will suffer for parts or suppliers if the Big 3 goes down?

here is an example, let's say momo, they make steering wheels.
(I am just using this as an example, i know they probably use other company's steering wheel)
GM collapses, momo lose business from GM, but that just means momo will get more business from Honda and Toyota instead.

here is why,

for example, people who are thinking about buying Chevy Cobalt right now, well if GM goes down, those people won't give up buying cars, they will just look for an alternative. Perhaps Mazda 3 or Civic.
in this case, the number of steering wheels sold does not change. momo will just sell the steering wheel to other company anyways.

another example, same thing as spark plugs. If NGK(the company who makes spark plugs) lose millions of $ of potential business from Big 3, but that just means European or Japanese company will buy more spark plugs because those car makers are now selling cars to potential domestic car buyers.

Same thing as companies who sell raw material, like companies who sell steel, aluminum, copper, iron, glass, whatever, if they lose millions of $$ business from GM, Ford and Chrysler, they will get more business from other companies anyways. why do they get more business from other companies? as I said, people who were looking for Cobalt will settle with Civic, people who were looking for Cadillac will settle with Lexus or Mercedes.

I am not sure about this, as the world's demand of automobile is decreasing at this moment..

If a person wanted to buy a Cadillac only, why the hell would they settle on a Lexus?

[OffroadZuki]

'Cuz Caddy's gone out of business...

[Timpo]

Originally Posted by cococly

I am not sure about this, as the world's demand of automobile is decreasing at this moment..

If a person wanted to buy a Cadillac only, why the hell would they settle on a Lexus?

They would have to, because there will be no Cadillac available.
Let's say you were looking for a Cadillac, then GM bankrupted. Would you give up buying a car at all? or would you look for something else, such as Lexus, Mercedes, Audi, etc.

[OffroadZuki]

Originally Posted by Timpo

They would have to, because there will be no Cadillac available.
Let's say you were looking for a Cadillac, then GM bankrupted. Would you give up buying a car at all? or would you look for something else, such as Lexus, Mercedes, Audi, etc.

lol...exactly.

[aspect]

I'm not sure why so many people think that when a big company goes into receivership, they just kick everybody out, auction off the equipment and knock down the factories. It's not like that, at all. If GM/etc became insolvent, the government would then step in to complete a restructuring of the company. If they DID need to get rid of assets, it's quite likely that factories would be purchased as a whole unit with workers and everything by other companies, as the infrastructure is worth a huge amount. The douche moves that GM has made in the past, like closing down factories and firing thousands of workers so they could open a new factory in mexico or overseas, would not be allowed by court-appointed monitors.

[Fastam]

Originally Posted by dustinb

In 1985, the United States and some European countries forced Japan to appreciate its currency by 35-50%. Consequently the cost of exports rose dramatically, and screwed Japan pretty bad.

Japan had deliberately undervalued their currency to give their auto companies(and other exporting companies) an unfair advantage in global trading. So really they were screwing everyone else, until they were forced bring their currency up to market value.

[Type R]

CNN today claimed that economists believe that 3 million people would be affected directly by the collapse of the big 3. Thinking that the import brands would just simply pick up the slack when the big 3 are gone is very short sited. 3 million people feel the windfall of that collapse, thats at LEAST 3 million people that aren't buying cars, or anything for that matter.

[OffroadZuki]

Trust me. They'll survive.

Besides, where do you draw the line? CanWest-Global cut nearly 600 jobs a few weeks ago...should they get a gov't bailout too? Would the world have been a better place if the gov't bailed Edsel out a few decades ago? It's survival of the fittest and GM is a sick and wounded antelope. Throw it to the lions, I says!

[Fastam]

Let me ask you a question.

Did Bombardier deserve the many goverment bail outs they have received over the years?

[Timpo]

$15 billion bailout approved

http://blogs.carpoint.ca/2008/12/15-bn-fund-for.html