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Questions & info about the Motor Vehicle Act. Mature discussion only. |
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06-20-2009, 08:50 PM
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#27 | | RS Peace Officer
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Originally Posted by Great68  If asked (by the driver/owner of the vehicle), are you required to disclose what grounds you have to perform the search?
No. That is for the court system to decide.
What other legal ways other than "Maintenance inspection" could you use to get yourself access into their trunk? (or are those things you wouldn't dare tell us here)
A consent search for instance, or...something leaking from the trunk area...foe example, since we are not talking hypothetical.
IE: you pulled someone over, they don't have drugs, booze, or anything illegal in their car but they are acting sketchy/nervous enough that you get suspicious. What legal ways other than "Mainenance/safety inspection" (you could even do this on a brand new car with no visible outside rust or damage, couldn't you?) could you get into their trunk if you wanted to?
There has to be enough grounds/indicators etc that you can later justify in court as to what gave you the reasonable and probable grounds. I'm not going to publish the methods & procedures Police are trained with, to legally achieve these.
lease don't get the wrong impression, I do not engage in illegal activity, I do not drive with illegal items in my car but I am of the "If I have nothing to hide, why should I be searched" mindset. | Which could be countered with...if you have nothing to hide then way do you object to a search that would show exactly that?  | 
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06-21-2009, 11:25 AM
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#28 | | Banned (ABWS)
Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Abbotsford
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Originally Posted by Five-Oh I also wonder what causes police to be drawn to you which makes you so in favour of standing up for your rights and resent the police so much? For the most part the police don't ask everyone in the general public to search their vehicle. So what encounters have you had with the police that makes the police want to search your vehicle? And what do you do that so frequently puts you into these situations. I am all for knowing your rights and standing up for them, but what makes you so passionate about it? | I actually have a clean record. I have never been issued a ticket in my life. Just like many people on this forum, I do not believe in having my rights and violations tossed out the window. Quote:
Originally Posted by Five-Oh I can't even count the number of times during traffic stops where a person has "exercised their rights" when they had no clue what they were talking about and all they did was made their situation worse by obstructing me in the lawful execution of my duties, which is a criminal charge. | Not only are you implying that anyone who dare stands up for themselves will be left with a permanent mark. You are assuming that anyone who seems to question your authority shall be punished. Quote:
Originally Posted by Five-Oh I would say the most common example is people who watch too much American television and choose to "plead the fifth" during traffic stops by refusing to say a single word. I have had quite a few times where somebody will not say a single word to me other than that it is their "right to remain silent" and will not produce a drivers license nor state their name, address, and date of birth. I explain to them their obligations under the Motor Vehicle Act and advise them if they continue to refuse to state their name, address, and date of birth, they will be arrested for obstruction. If they continue to refuse they are arrested for obstruction, go in handcuffs, and in the back of a police car. To avoid situations like this, people should be informed on what they need to do. | If someone refuses to give you any information or to respond to you, then that is 100% their fault. I do not know anyone who would just not respond to an officer. That is an extreme case in point. Quote:
Originally Posted by Five-Oh I also wonder what causes police to be drawn to you which makes you so in favour of standing up for your rights and resent the police so much? For the most part the police don't ask everyone in the general public to search their vehicle. So what encounters have you had with the police that makes the police want to search your vehicle? And what do you do that so frequently puts you into these situations. I am all for knowing your rights and standing up for them, but what makes you so passionate about it? | I am fed up with hearing how many people are being screwed and pushed over by Police officers. I will say it again, you are here to serve and protect. Just because I am pulled over for speeding does not mean that I am holding a bag of crack in my trunk and a loaded pistol in my waistband. I always stand up for myself and I am on guard for the cop. Just because an officer has bad judgment or has a bad day, can result in serious penalties for myself. An officer would be very focused to find something wrong with me, and I will study his actions and him with the same intensity. Quote:
Originally Posted by Five-Oh Handcuffs are not comfortable as you are jammed into the back of a Crown Vic. | Its answers like this that really disgust me. Taunting with your authority. I know that cops are people too, and you guys deal with this bs everyday. Just another reason why the public needs to be informed and educated about what is right and what is wrong. Quote:
Originally Posted by zulutango IF I had to move a gym bag to inspect the vehilce and I smelled grass in it, then I would proceed accordingly under the criminal code and CDSA..I would not have authority to do as you suggested and to do so would be a charter breach and a huge waste of time and effort on my part...and I would be held personally liable for doing so. Without disclosing investigational techniques, there are a huge number of indicators that something is not as it is being presented. We enter into an investigation if we have reasonable and probable grounds to believe something illegal has happened. It's what we do. Hope that helps. | What investigation techniques could you possibly be talking about?? Your statement makes no sence at all. So what are you talking about if I did not look like I just came from the gym, that why would I have a gym bag? I am wondering what you are referring to. Its not like you would be able to test the air in the trunk if it contained a drug particle or something like that. I am guessing you would be profiling the driver to some extent if the bags or articles in a trunk matched his current profile? I still do not even see why a cop would really need to see my trunk to check structural rigidity? Cause most cars rust from the inside out right?? WRONG!! You would only need to get on the ground and look under the vehicle. Or would that be to messy for you officer? I would think it would be easier for you to pop the trunk, instead of getting down and dirty. I have never seen a car rusted so bad in the trunk and be clean beneath the car. I would like to see how you would even justify popping my trunk to check the state of my car. A simple peak under the car would give you a better idea. It would also protect my privacy. Quote:
Originally Posted by dutch | Ding ding ding!! This is where it really hits home. I am sure this is just the tip of the iceberg. The idea that we the public are constantly in breach of the law, and its so easy for you officers to come and ticket all of us. THe same can be said for officers. Sure you have IA, but so many times our rights are violated and who are we to question a peace officer? Quote:
Originally Posted by woob So there is no Canadian equivalent to the 5th amendment? | No there is nothing like that. The US and Canadian law are very different!! Quote:
Originally Posted by zulutango Which could be countered with...if you have nothing to hide then way do you object to a search that would show exactly that? | I don't care!! Why should I bend over and allow you to walk all over my rights and freedoms because you don't have enough grounds to proceed with a search? I will not consent to a search just to please you. If I have nothing to hide I will not have anymore of my time wasted. I am sure this really would tick you off to go and threaten me with some tight cuffs in the back of your cruiser. Or maybe a drug dog. Cops are great mind manipulators, you guys are great at scaring and taunting at people. People should be educated in what is right and what is wrong. This should be taught in schools. Ignorance of the law is not allowed. Education is key.
You guys hold the power to ruin my life, or my night. In this day of age, I would rather be informed and safe, then in the back of your cruiser.
Last edited by stutterr; 06-21-2009 at 11:45 AM.
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06-21-2009, 12:05 PM
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#29 | | I WANT MY 10 YEARS BACK FROM RS.net!
Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Abbotstan
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Originally Posted by woob So there is no Canadian equivalent to the 5th amendment? | Quote:
Originally Posted by stutterr No there is nothing like that. The US and Canadian law are very different!! | You're exactly what Five-Oh was talking about when he said "I can't even count the number of times during traffic stops where a person has "exercised their rights" when they had no clue what they were talking about..."
To wit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_warning#Canada
The specific laws may be different, but certain basic Constitutional rights still have the same roots:
" The Fifth Amendment of the United States Constitution, which is part of the Bill of Rights, protects against abuse of government authority in a legal procedure. Its guarantees stem from English common law which traces back to the Magna Carta in 1215. For instance, Grand Juries and the phrase "due process" both trace their origin to the Magna Carta." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_A...s_Constitution)
" Section Thirteen of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms is a section of the Charter which, along with section 11 (c), specifies rights regarding self-incrimination.
It reads:
“ 13. A witness who testifies in any proceedings has the right not to have any incriminating evidence so given used to incriminate that witness in any other proceedings, except in a prosecution for perjury or for the giving of contradictory evidence. ”
Rights against self-incrimination had existed in Canadian law even before the Charter, but these applied to cases in which an individual might incriminate him or herself while giving testimony in another person's trial. Since the enactment of the Charter, the right has been extended in case law in regard to retrials, to exclude from one's retrial self-incriminating evidence if it had been obtained during cross examination in the last trial.[1]
This section is also similar the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section...s_and_Freedoms)
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Originally Posted by Godzira Does anyone know how many to a signature? | ..
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Originally Posted by Brianrietta Not a sebberry post goes by where I don't frown and think to myself "so..?" | | |
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06-21-2009, 12:11 PM
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#30 | | Banned (ABWS)
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Originally Posted by Soundy You're exactly what Five-Oh was talking about when he said "I can't even count the number of times during traffic stops where a person has "exercised their rights" when they had no clue what they were talking about..."
To wit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_warning#Canada
The specific laws may be different, but certain basic Constitutional rights still have the same roots:
" The Fifth Amendment of the United States Constitution, which is part of the Bill of Rights, protects against abuse of government authority in a legal procedure. Its guarantees stem from English common law which traces back to the Magna Carta in 1215. For instance, Grand Juries and the phrase "due process" both trace their origin to the Magna Carta." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_A...s_Constitution)
" Section Thirteen of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms is a section of the Charter which, along with section 11 (c), specifies rights regarding self-incrimination.
It reads:
“ 13. A witness who testifies in any proceedings has the right not to have any incriminating evidence so given used to incriminate that witness in any other proceedings, except in a prosecution for perjury or for the giving of contradictory evidence. ”
Rights against self-incrimination had existed in Canadian law even before the Charter, but these applied to cases in which an individual might incriminate him or herself while giving testimony in another person's trial. Since the enactment of the Charter, the right has been extended in case law in regard to retrials, to exclude from one's retrial self-incriminating evidence if it had been obtained during cross examination in the last trial.[1]
This section is also similar the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section...s_and_Freedoms) | To my understanding they are 2 very different rights and when they can be used or referred to are quite different. From my understanding the context from which they are used in are very different as well.
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06-21-2009, 08:16 PM
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#31 | | RS Peace Officer
Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Vancouver Islan
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"Without disclosing investigational techniques, there are a huge number of indicators that something is not as it is being presented." is one answer. For the other you asked...see my previous postings on this subject.
I get the feeling that you have something against Police. Your postings here seem to contain an undercurrent of distrust and dislike for Police and laws, or leave that impression with me and the other Police here. This is a forum where civility is required by all parties. If you don't like the informed, experienced responses you get from us, then maybe you should avoid the frustration we seem to be giving you. That way you don't get stressed, nor will we. As with roadside discussions, nothing you say will make me change my mind, nothing I say will make you change yours. This way we are both happier. | |
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06-21-2009, 10:24 PM
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#32 | | I don't get it
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Not trying to hi-jack this thread, but can cops actually ban you from a restaurant? Like if they say you're not allowed at a certain place because of the people you associate with? I met a buddy after 5-6 years (we went to school together) anyways he chose his way of life and I chose to stay in school. I ran into him at cactus and we were talking and then TGTF came and took my id and his, and told me I have to leave the establishment, even though i explained to them I was there to have dinner with my gf and this guy is just a friend from along time ago. Any way to fight this? Cactus food is pretty good!
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06-21-2009, 11:37 PM
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#33 | | ninja edits your posts without your knowledge
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Originally Posted by yamahar6 Not trying to hi-jack this thread, but can cops actually ban you from a restaurant? Like if they say you're not allowed at a certain place because of the people you associate with? I met a buddy after 5-6 years (we went to school together) anyways he chose his way of life and I chose to stay in school. I ran into him at cactus and we were talking and then TGTF came and took my id and his, and told me I have to leave the establishment, even though i explained to them I was there to have dinner with my gf and this guy is just a friend from along time ago. Any way to fight this? Cactus food is pretty good! | Find another restaurant. Problem solved. Is it really worth the hassle of a possible confrontation?
I'd say choose your fights and this isn't one that is worth it.
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06-22-2009, 12:57 AM
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#34 | | Captain Happy Bubble is my Homeboy
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Originally Posted by yamahar6 Cactus food is pretty good! | cactus food sucks my friend...  | |
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06-22-2009, 01:02 AM
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#35 | | I don't get it
Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Surrey
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Originally Posted by Dan_Guy cactus food sucks my friend... | You think so? I love it man, the cajun chicken burger is the shit!  | |
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06-22-2009, 05:39 AM
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#36 | | RS Peace Officer
Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Vancouver Islan
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Release conditions can be applied to criminal charges and one could be that you not attend, or be withing a certain distance of, or communicate with...and there may be Civil restrictions that may be applied..but I know very little Civil law.
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06-22-2009, 11:32 AM
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#37 | | Retired Traffic Cop
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The property owner or their authorized rep can ask you to leave and if you don't you are committing an offence. So, in this case, the owner of the restaurant can ask the police to cause a customer that they don't want on the premises to leave and stay away. This is not a police power but delegated authority from the property owner.
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06-22-2009, 11:26 PM
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#38 | | RS Peace Officer
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Originally Posted by yamahar6 Not trying to hi-jack this thread, but can cops actually ban you from a restaurant? Like if they say you're not allowed at a certain place because of the people you associate with? I met a buddy after 5-6 years (we went to school together) anyways he chose his way of life and I chose to stay in school. I ran into him at cactus and we were talking and then TGTF came and took my id and his, and told me I have to leave the establishment, even though i explained to them I was there to have dinner with my gf and this guy is just a friend from along time ago. Any way to fight this? Cactus food is pretty good! | Quick answer to your question, yes they can ban you as Cactus Club is a member of the Restaurant Watch program.
Restaurant watch is a spin-off of the Bar Watch program. With all of the gang related shootings recently many of the bars and restaurants in the Lower Mainland have decided they do not want any gang members or gang associates inside of their establishment. In order to ensure that there is nobody with gang ties in the place, the restaurant and bar owners have requested the police to remove anybody inside of the place with gang ties. Unfortunately for you, it looks like you were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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06-23-2009, 07:12 AM
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#39 | | Rs has made me the man i am today!
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People get taken out of Cactus Club all the time under this program  | |
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06-23-2009, 10:01 AM
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#40 | | RS Peace Officer
Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Vancouver Islan
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Thanks to the LMD Members for your better-informed response. The only people that get banned from establishments over here...are over-caffeined Cops, from Timmys. | |
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06-23-2009, 03:52 PM
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#41 | | HELP ME PLS!!!
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Originally Posted by zulutango Which could be countered with...if you have nothing to hide then way do you object to a search that would show exactly that? | Although this is true, it's the police equivalent of a prenuptual agreement. If you love me and not just my money, you'd sign it. if you trust me, i wouldnt have to sign it.
A person may have nothing to hide, but that doesnt mean they're going to open all the gates and consent to all searches. I'm not about to pull the whole 'my grandfather fought for these rights blah blah blah", but rather simply state that those constitutional rights were included for a reason.
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06-23-2009, 06:29 PM
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#42 | | I contribute to threads in the offtopic forum
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Just a quick question, too late to save me now but just wondering if i get pulled over for speeding ticket, can they ask me to pop my hood? After i popped my hood they said my car was unsafe because it had a jdm front end conversion when it was not. JDM cars are being brought over here now without changing anything in the front now anyways, so would I of just been able to say no to popping my hood?
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06-23-2009, 07:29 PM
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#43 | | RS Peace Officer
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A review of this forum will show you that Police are designated as vehicle inspectors...and they can inspect your vehicle...and that permits them to open you hood.
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06-23-2009, 08:32 PM
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#44 | | Willing to sell body for a few minutes on RS
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Originally Posted by zulutango Which could be countered with...if you have nothing to hide then way do you object to a search that would show exactly that? | When did Canada become a police state?
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06-24-2009, 06:07 AM
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#45 | | RS Peace Officer
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Last edited by zulutango; 06-24-2009 at 07:16 AM.
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06-24-2009, 09:49 AM
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#46 | | ninja edits your posts without your knowledge
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Originally Posted by Great68 When did Canada become a police state? | When people chose to be shot at rather than tazed.  | |
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06-24-2009, 01:13 PM
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#47 | | Willing to sell body for a few minutes on RS
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Originally Posted by CRS When people chose to be shot at rather than tazed. | 
I'm honoured to have a fan that follows me around the website. 
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2014 F150 5.0L XTR 4x4
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06-24-2009, 03:36 PM
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#48 | | 14 dolla balla aint got nothing on me!
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Originally Posted by zulutango | Things can always get worse and things can always get better. Which one do you choose?
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06-24-2009, 05:34 PM
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#49 | | Willing to sell body for a few minutes on RS
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Originally Posted by zulutango | It's not really a light hearted topic.
Tell that to all the people that got the random backpack searches during Victoria's Canada Day fireworks last year.
Like, if those people weren't drunk already, what possible way could you say "Well I thought they had liquor in their backpack, so the search was just".
If it wasn't for a complaint, the same thing would occur this year. Too bad the complaint has to be issued AFTER it happens, it's like closing the barn door after the cows have already left.
Once an officer feels he can do no wrong, that's a scary scenario because so many of the general public would not know any better and would get walked all over.
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Last edited by Great68; 06-24-2009 at 05:42 PM.
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06-25-2009, 05:19 PM
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#50 | | ninja edits your posts without your knowledge
Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Vancouver
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Originally Posted by Great68
I'm honoured to have a fan that follows me around the website. | I'd get that head out of your ass.
If you're ever been on the police forum, I'm a frequent poster.
Ask Soundy or Zulu or even Skid, they can all tell you that I'm an active poster here.
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