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Soundy 08-19-2011 04:51 PM
Nice...
 
Next time you whiners wanna complain about the traffic fines out here... just be glad you're not in Alberta. Just got a letter from the rental company from my visit to Edmonton last month, with a red-light ticket for $287(!!! - compare to the measly $167 they charge here, and they don't give you a $25 break for prompt payment)... with the rental company's administration fees and whatever else they tack on, it's a total of $312.

Naturally, it can only be disputed in person, which means it would cost me less to just pay the ticket than it would to fight it. (Not that I plan to - the only possible defense I'd have is that the semi right ahead of me - clearly visible in the photo - blocked my view of the light until it was too late... and somehow I doubt anyone would buy that as an excuse).

sebberry 08-19-2011 05:37 PM
This is what happens to people who make simple errors in pro-enforcement nanny state regimes.


What did you say to me earlier? "Let me know when you're driving in the LMND so I can stay home" I think it was.

jlenko 08-19-2011 07:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundy
the only possible defense I'd have is that the semi right ahead of me - clearly visible in the photo - blocked my view of the light until it was too late...
I saw that same scenario yesterday... but it didn't end too well. I was sitting at a red light on the SFPR project road, when a semi blew the very stale yellow (turned red as he entered the intersection) on the intersecting road. Old Yale Road, I believe it is. Anyway, there was a car so close behind the semi, no way he could see the light.. he just followed the semi through the now-red light.

Well.. as luck would have it.. a driver coming the opposite direction to me.. saw the light green and kept coming at full speed (I'd say, around 60 km/h) when he broadsided the now-red-light-running Honda Civic. Guy didn't look too good. All that, because he was following too closely.

And yes, I did stay as a witness. I may be an e-thugging asshole, but not enough to leave the scene.

sebberry 08-19-2011 07:29 PM
This is why you have longer yellow lights and more time between one light changing to red and the cross road changing to green. We should adopt UK style lights that feature a pre-green orange as well.

Clearly red light cameras don't stop people who couldn't see the light from running it. And chances are, someone tailgating a truck that close isn't thinking about the red light cameras anyway.

Setting appropriate light timings doesn't generate revenue, but it sure makes intersections safer.

jlenko 08-19-2011 07:52 PM
It's a pretty long yellow as it is. The problem is idiot drivers who don't respect the yellow (or red), and people following too close.

Don't penalize the drivers who can and do stop when they're supposed to.

sebberry 08-19-2011 08:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlenko (Post 7551357)
It's a pretty long yellow as it is. The problem is idiot drivers who don't respect the yellow (or red), and people following too close.

Don't penalize the drivers who can and do stop when they're supposed to.
In the situation you gave, I think the guy who proceeded on green and hit the red-runner was penalized.

Longer lights and a longer red-to-green delay for the cross street (even a second longer, hardly penalizing anyone) sounded like it would have prevented this collision.


There must be some stats collected on red light collisions. Do most red light runners cause a collision in the first two seconds of the light being red, or do most red light collisions happen after the light has been red for several seconds?

Soundy 08-19-2011 08:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebberry (Post 7551240)
This is what happens to people who make simple errors in pro-enforcement nanny state regimes.
Did anyone ask for your opinion? No? Didn't think so. Kindly fuck off now (sorry mods). As usual, you completely ignore the point in order to inject your socialist drivel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlenko (Post 7551326)
I saw that same scenario yesterday... but it didn't end too well. I was sitting at a red light on the SFPR project road, when a semi blew the very stale yellow (turned red as he entered the intersection) on the intersecting road. Old Yale Road, I believe it is. Anyway, there was a car so close behind the semi, no way he could see the light.. he just followed the semi through the now-red light.

Well.. as luck would have it.. a driver coming the opposite direction to me.. saw the light green and kept coming at full speed (I'd say, around 60 km/h) when he broadsided the now-red-light-running Honda Civic. Guy didn't look too good. All that, because he was following too closely.

And yes, I did stay as a witness. I may be an e-thugging asshole, but not enough to leave the scene.
Actually, in my case, it's clear I was a good couple car lengths behind the semi... and entering the intersection barely a second after the light changed. Keep in mind that the lights in Edmonton are all mounted horizontally, so the yellow and red don't stick up higher than the green... from the look of it, it probably just turned yellow as the semi started to block the light... and given that it's actually a city street and we were probably doing 60 *max*, that's lots of time for the light to turn red before the truck had even cleared the intersection.

I don't know how ICBC would call your story above, but it sounds to me like a split fault - yeah, the Civic blew the red, but the other guy has a responsibility to ensure the intersection is clear before blowing into it, too...

Szeto 08-19-2011 08:44 PM
never follow any vehicle too closely to the point you can't see the traffic light... but what puzzles me is in jlenko's scenario, which he witnessed, the guy who went full speed on green, could he have not seen the trailing car behind the semi and applied brake? o.o

jlenko 08-20-2011 02:32 PM
Whoever puts lights up at intersections came up with a neat solution... lights on the sides as well, not just the one in the air.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundy
the other guy has a responsibility to ensure the intersection is clear before blowing into it, too...
I agree... there's a big pile of sand there though.. if you're not paying attention to the intersection (and just the light) this kind of stuff can happen.

Vancouver drivers just suck.

sebberry 08-20-2011 04:50 PM
Yes, drivers "should" pay attention to the side lights, but sometimes for whatever reason some drivers don't.

This is why with proper light timings we can allow for mistakes to happen without the potentially drastic consequences.

Instead, the government feels catching someone in the act of running a light would be more appropriate than preventing a collision should someone actually race the light.



I was slowing down for a yellow light today and the guy behind me a good 30 meters back made a lane change and sped up with every intention of running the light.

I somehow don't think that someone with that sort of attitude will be "transformed" into a safe driver with red light cameras.


Red light cameras don't stop red light runners, accidental or intentional. But you can stop collisions such as the one jlenko witnessed.

Graeme S 08-20-2011 06:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebberry (Post 7552114)
Yes, drivers "should" pay attention to the side lights, but sometimes for whatever reason some drivers don't.

This is why with proper light timings we can allow for mistakes to happen without the potentially drastic consequences.

Instead, the government feels catching someone in the act of running a light would be more appropriate than preventing a collision should someone actually race the light.



I was slowing down for a yellow light today and the guy behind me a good 30 meters back made a lane change and sped up with every intention of running the light.

I somehow don't think that someone with that sort of attitude will be "transformed" into a safe driver with red light cameras.


Red light cameras don't stop red light runners, accidental or intentional. But you can stop collisions such as the one jlenko witnessed.
If you want to put it like that, then longer yellows will simply encourage more of the people who were going to run reds to do it more and later.

There comes a time where you have to just draw a line. Some idiocy cannot be cured as long as there is a heartbeat.

sebberry 08-20-2011 07:03 PM
Which is why you have a longer period between one light going red and the cross street getting the green to allow any idiot who does blow the red to clear the intersection before the crossing traffic can go.

wing_woo 08-22-2011 02:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlenko (Post 7552027)
Whoever puts lights up at intersections came up with a neat solution... lights on the sides as well, not just the one in the air.
I don't like following trucks for the reason that they cover traffic lights. It happened to me once when I was behind a truck. Ended up going through a solid red because of the truck.

Didn't get caught or anything, but had quite the scolding from my mom who was the passenger. Mind you this was not long after getting my license.

Ever since then, when behind a truck and I can't see the light above, I look for the side ones to see what's happening with the traffic lights. I used to never look at those ones before that happened.

zulutango 08-22-2011 07:46 PM
So a safe driver who is scanning 12-15 sceonds ahead and is alert for vision obstructions ( like large trucks), would see the light and not end up running it. Like wing woo said...can't see the overhead lights, back off and see the side ones.

bloodmack 08-22-2011 07:56 PM
I find it pretty hard to accidentally run a red light. There's more then just lights telling you "the driver" that its going to be a red. If people actually scanned the area of an intersection they'd notice it, unless its a empty intersection :P

sebberry 08-22-2011 08:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodmack (Post 7554292)
I find it pretty hard to accidentally run a red light. There's more then just lights telling you "the driver" that its going to be a red. If people actually scanned the area of an intersection they'd notice it, unless its a empty intersection :P
It's simple. Don't proceed unless you can see that it is legal for you to do so (can't see the green light? don't go.)

The trouble is when you have people who are dealing with driving in unfamiliar areas. You're always going to have someone who genuinely makes a mistake. Knowing this, you adjust light timing to give sufficient time for the intersection to clear up before the cross street gets a green.

You don't need to beat people until they're red and bloody with a rolled up red light camera ticket and call it "making the streets safer".

Spidey 08-22-2011 08:14 PM
In the case that trucks/ buses that are in front of you, it is shitty luck...

For other cases though, the yellow is pretty long, and if you were not deliberately trying to beat the light, you would be able to stop in time. I see so many morons trying to beat the light and/or do not anticipite the light is going to turn yellow/red when they see the pedestrian crossing has been flashing stop for a while. Moreso of a jackass move when they know people are waiting to turn left on the opposing side.

Anyways, back to your situation, sorry to hear about the ticket.....

Bainne 08-23-2011 01:21 AM
Ahhh Alberta (and especially Calgary)

While they may not have a provincial sales tax, they sure make up for lost revenue with red light cameras and some seriously aggressive enforcement.

Mind you, I'd speed all the time too if everything was flat, straight and nothing but hay for miles. Forget the 1/4 mile.... its the 14 mile :fullofwin:

unxetas 08-23-2011 09:34 AM
To be honest, I don't think I've read that part of the book here in Canada, but in Portugal, a green light does NOT mean 'go'. It means go through the intersection if it's safe to do so (meaning, if the intersection is clear). Still the guys fault for running a red light, but what kind of idiot runs full tilt through an intersection when a semi is just moving away?

wing_woo 08-23-2011 11:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueG2 (Post 7554310)
. Moreso of a jackass move when they know people are waiting to turn left on the opposing side.
What I hate is the jackass running the light not even knowing they ran it and get all pissy when the left turner honks them.

A lady in a minivan ran a red and fingered me for honking her. She was on the phone or something else while driving and obviously wasn't paying attention.

underscore 09-20-2011 11:23 PM
I wouldn't rely solely on the side lights either, some jerkof went and turned a bunch of them around so that they were facing the wrong way the same night as my story below. The first one I saw was pretty confusing because it's not what you expect (seeing a red light and a green light aimed at you at the same time). It messed up a few drivers and nearly caused several accidents that I saw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundy (Post 7551388)
Did anyone ask for your opinion? No? Didn't think so. Kindly fuck off now (sorry mods). As usual, you completely ignore the point in order to inject your socialist drivel.


Actually, in my case, it's clear I was a good couple car lengths behind the semi... and entering the intersection barely a second after the light changed. Keep in mind that the lights in Edmonton are all mounted horizontally, so the yellow and red don't stick up higher than the green... from the look of it, it probably just turned yellow as the semi started to block the light... and given that it's actually a city street and we were probably doing 60 *max*, that's lots of time for the light to turn red before the truck had even cleared the intersection.

I don't know how ICBC would call your story above, but it sounds to me like a split fault - yeah, the Civic blew the red, but the other guy has a responsibility to ensure the intersection is clear before blowing into it, too...
I got hit by one a few nights ago in a similar situation, but with a big lifted truck, around a curve, and trees blocking the side lights. I never saw the yellow, except for a fraction of a second before I went in as it quickly changed red and I got the *poof poof* of the camera. I was in a rush trying to get to my gf who locked her keys in her car late at night, but after that I realised I'm not saving much time rushing around, especilly if it gets me $$$ tickets.

Limitless 09-21-2011 08:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebberry (Post 7554306)
It's simple. Don't proceed unless you can see that it is legal for you to do so (can't see the green light? don't go.)

The trouble is when you have people who are dealing with driving in unfamiliar areas. You're always going to have someone who genuinely makes a mistake. Knowing this, you adjust light timing to give sufficient time for the intersection to clear up before the cross street gets a green.

You don't need to beat people until they're red and bloody with a rolled up red light camera ticket and call it "making the streets safer".
I know I'm replying to a somewhat old post, but which part of Graeme S' post did you not understand? Changing the duration of the lights won't do anything, as soon as drivers catch on they'll just use that extra time to be able to run a yellow light a few seconds later then they could have before. You just keep repeating the same thing over and over..
Posted via RS Mobile

sebberry 09-21-2011 09:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Limitless (Post 7585436)
I know I'm replying to a somewhat old post, but which part of Graeme S' post did you not understand? Changing the duration of the lights won't do anything, as soon as drivers catch on they'll just use that extra time to be able to run a yellow light a few seconds later then they could have before. You just keep repeating the same thing over and over..
Posted via RS Mobile
While you're certainly entitled to say what you feel might happen, taking a look at the facts might change your mind...

Quote:
Red Light Citations Drop Below One Per Day
Increasing Yellow Light Time at Fairfax Red Light Camera Intersection Results in 94 percent Drop in "Red Light Violations."

Eric Skrum, Communications Director for the National Motorists Association said, "Records from Fairfax County show that increasing the time of yellow lights significantly decreases the number of red light violations. The Virginia Department of Transportation increased the yellow time on the traffic lights at US50 and Fair Ridge Drive by 1.50 seconds on March 26, 2001. This increase in yellow time from 4.00 seconds to 5.50 seconds resulted in a 94 percent drop in citations, less than one per day, at this red light camera enforced location."

[...]
Red Light Citations Drop Below One Per Day

.

SumAznGuy 09-21-2011 09:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebberry (Post 7585485)
While you're certainly entitled to say what you feel might happen, taking a look at the facts might change your mind...



Red Light Citations Drop Below One Per Day

.
:heckno:

My first instinct tells me that there is less red light tickets because those people who should have gotten the tickets are now running yellow lights because of the increased 1.5 seconds.

It is just a matter of time before those people realize the delayed yellow light and start running red lights again.

zulutango 09-21-2011 11:11 AM
Just like increasing the speed limits because people choose to speed. Limit goes up, speeds go up.


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