Vancouver Off-Topic / Current Events The off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum. | | |
07-27-2013, 08:09 PM
|
#226 | 14 dolla balla aint got nothing on me!
Join Date: May 2011 Location: 1966 Mustang
Posts: 617
Thanked 1,979 Times in 262 Posts
|
@ CIC
Please, if you think someone is "calling you out", don't use your primal monkey urges and throw feces at them. Instead, try using your (I hope) well developed forebrain and try to argue the idea rather than the person.
This way everyone can learn, agree, or agree to disagree.
Personal attacks will get you nothing but ridicule, so save yourself the effort. Also, when arguing please avoid ad hominem attacks, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacyThese arguments have a very weak foundation, will not hold up, and only serve to discredit your point.
|
| |
07-28-2013, 06:27 PM
|
#227 | NEWBIE ACCOUNT!
Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: V
Posts: 22
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
|
anybody actually buy a reader to check the readings?
|
| |
07-28-2013, 08:41 PM
|
#228 | I WANT MY 10 YEARS BACK FROM RS.net!
Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Abbotstan
Posts: 20,721
Thanked 12,136 Times in 3,361 Posts
|
Of course not, it's far cheaper and easier to pluck random YouTube videos that fit your point while ignoring those that don't.
__________________ Quote:
Originally Posted by Godzira Does anyone know how many to a signature? | .. Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianrietta Not a sebberry post goes by where I don't frown and think to myself "so..?" | |
| |
07-28-2013, 08:44 PM
|
#229 | I subscribe to Revscene
Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,996
Thanked 663 Times in 384 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by finbar @ CIC
Please, if you think someone is "calling you out", don't use your primal monkey urges and throw feces at them. Instead, try using your (I hope) well developed forebrain and try to argue the idea rather than the person.
This way everyone can learn, agree, or agree to disagree.
Personal attacks will get you nothing but ridicule, so save yourself the effort. Also, when arguing please avoid ad hominem attacks, straw man arguments and logical fallacies
These arguments have a very weak foundation, will not hold up, and only serve to discredit your point. | Youve mistaken me for a scholar and a gentleman |
| |
07-28-2013, 09:40 PM
|
#230 | The Lone Wanderator
Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Burnaby
Posts: 12,090
Thanked 4,367 Times in 1,137 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesInCharge Youve mistaken me for a scholar and a gentleman | A rare moment where CiC speaks the truth.
|
| |
07-29-2013, 06:55 AM
|
#231 | I *heart* Revscene.net very Muchie
Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Van, BC
Posts: 3,666
Thanked 728 Times in 435 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Graeme S Now, don't get me wrong, it's entirely possible that there is a group of people who have somehow evolved an EM sensitivity. There is as yet, however, no proof of such. I would very much like to see research on those people who claim sensitivity to see if there is some way to either suppress or promote this sense, as it may be either advantageous or disadvantageous in the future. | THIS. Those who are saying "you are crazy, no symptoms can possibly exist" become a barrier to new research which may prove otherwise 10, 20, 50 years down the road. We simply don't know enough right now. Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesInCharge | That article you quoted is a bit of a load IMO. If that whole cascade of events is going on, it would not be difficult to prove it definitively. To me it sounds like a reach: "well WiFi may affect this part, which may lead to that over time, which may cause this and that eventually, and if all of that happens then there may be a chance that it is harmful". They are just using smarter bigger words, but they are not actually saying anything new we don't already know, nor are they proving a causation.
|
| |
07-29-2013, 07:51 AM
|
#232 | Willing to sell body for a few minutes on RS
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Cloverdale
Posts: 11,534
Thanked 3,731 Times in 1,322 Posts
|
Edited: CIC can believe what he wants regardless what my view on his posts are.
__________________
“The world ain't all sunshine and rainbows. It's a very mean and nasty place... and I don´t care how tough you are, it will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently, if you let it. You, me or nobody, is gonna hit as hard as life. But ain't about how hard you hit... It's about how hard you can get hit, and keep moving forward... how much you can take, and keep moving forward. That´s how winning is done. Now, if you know what you worth, go out and get what you worth.” - Rocky Balboa
Last edited by quasi; 07-29-2013 at 11:27 AM.
|
| |
07-29-2013, 04:06 PM
|
#234 | Head Moderator
Join Date: Dec 1982 Location: Great White Nor
Posts: 22,661
Thanked 6,462 Times in 2,081 Posts
|
Global Research... |
| |
07-29-2013, 04:07 PM
|
#235 | The Lone Wanderator
Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Burnaby
Posts: 12,090
Thanked 4,367 Times in 1,137 Posts
|
I'm, not a university student any more, so I don't get access to journals; is there any way someone who is can get ahold of the full statement? Scientific panel on electromagnet... [Rev Environ Health. 2010 Oct-Dec] - PubMed - NCBI
There's nothing more than quotes released, and the abstract is much more vague than the anti-EM people would like to admit: "Scientific panel on electromagnetic field health risks: consensus points, recommendations, and rationales."
As far as the Radiofrequency [sic] Radiation article, there's so much in there that just makes me cringe, even just from a stylistic point.
First, the title: Radiofrequency Radiation: The Invisible Hazards of "Smart" Meters
The proper way to use quotes around Smart Meters is around the entire thing--it's the name they've been given. By only putting them around the word "Smart" it leaves an implication that the word smart is undeserved or improperly used. This mistake (or rather, stylistic choice) is repeated throughout.
It then opens with a quote from the Seletun Scientific Statement suggesting that new limits be proposed--though not why nor what research or evidence has caused them to suggest this.
It then goes on to say that: Quote:
The US nationwide program is “driven, in part by funding for the Smart Grid Program approved as part of the American Recovery[sic] and Reinvestment Act [AARA] of 2009.”(3) “There is great concern because exposure to microwave and radiowave radiation from these meters in involuntary and continuous. The transmitting meters may not even comply with FCC ‘safety’ standards. …These standards [are totally outdated and] were not designed to protect a diverse population from non-thermals effects of continuous exposure to microwave and radiowave radiation. Therefore, these ‘safety’ standards were not designed to protect the public from health problems under the circumstances which the meters are being used.”(4)
| (Emphases added are mine)
I have bolded the areas in which they have used square-parentheses or quotes in order to slightly change or spin the quotes. In order:
"...as part of the American Recovery[sic] and Reinvestment Act [AARA] of 2009."
For those of you unaware, the sign [sic] in newspapers and other print media sources is used to indicate that this is a direct quote, and that any mistakes within are either intentional or were contained within the original source media. The fact that there is no typo here--which is often the reason [sic] will be used-- would seem to indicate that the author of this particular article doesn't believe that American Recovery is either the intent of this law, or that American Recovery is not necessary. Either way, it is pushing their mentality on an otherwise neutral statement.
"The transmitting meters may not even comply with FCC 'safety' standards..."
and
"Therefore, these 'safety' standards were not designed to protect the public..."
In each of these quotes, the word safety has been put in quotes, without any reason given for it. This simple and small change is used to undermine the idea that existing regulations are there to regulate safety.
"These standards [are totally outdated and] were not designed to protect..."
There is no reason why the words within the square quotes would be added, especially given that this is supposed to be a direct quote; when one is directly quoting someone and using this as evidence for why they are right it's not exactly a good idea to put more words in their mouth.
Then, in the next paragraph, it does absolute wonders. Allow me to post it here: Quote:
As Marti Oakley has just written, the best way to look at what’s happening is to: “follow the money. In late October 2009, the [US] Department of Energy announced the $3.4 billion in stimulus grants under AARA. Award selections were announced for 100 smart grid projects that are intended to lead to the rollout of approximately 18-million smart meters, 1-million in-home energy management displays, and 170,000 smart thermostats, as well as numerous advanced transformers and load management devices.”(5)
| So we have now gone from 'the dangers of radiation' to a quote from a woman who is the host of TS Radio (I tried to find out what the TS stands for--no joy), and author of the PPJ Gazette (Also no idea what PPJ stands for).
I did read the entire article, and while some of its points may show some validity, the manner in which they're presented stretches reason a fair bit.
|
| |
07-29-2013, 04:30 PM
|
#236 | I WANT MY 10 YEARS BACK FROM RS.net!
Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Abbotstan
Posts: 20,721
Thanked 12,136 Times in 3,361 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Graeme S I did read the entire article, and while some of its points may show some validity, the manner in which they're presented stretches reason a fair bit. | To summarize: the author comes across as someone with an agenda of his/her own beyond (or likely completely separate from) mere "safety concerns", who is simply (mis)using others' safety arguments to prop up that agenda.
Why would someone do this? Well, not that THIS is an actual theory, but just an example: who (safety and privacy aside) stands to lose the most from the proliferation of smart meters? Well, meter readers, for starters, who are seeing their jobs outright negated... and the makers and maintainers of the old analog meters, who are watching their market quickly disappear. If either group (or both, together??) were to, say, generate enough FUD around the new technology that they could convince utility companies and regulators to stop or even reverse their adoption... hmmm...
HMMMMMM.
I wonder if Vivan Krause has looked into this at all?
__________________ Quote:
Originally Posted by Godzira Does anyone know how many to a signature? | .. Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianrietta Not a sebberry post goes by where I don't frown and think to myself "so..?" | |
| |
07-29-2013, 10:27 PM
|
#237 | Head Moderator
Join Date: Dec 1982 Location: Great White Nor
Posts: 22,661
Thanked 6,462 Times in 2,081 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by KingVR4 | Okay, I'll respond a little more than how I originally did.
I'll admit I didn't read the whole thing, though I did skim from paragraph to paragraph and a few things stood out for me. Quote:
The US nationwide program is “driven, in part by funding for the Smart Grid Program approved as part of the American Recovery[sic] and Reinvestment Act [AARA] of 2009.”(3) “There is great concern because exposure to microwave and radiowave radiation from these meters in involuntary and continuous. The transmitting meters may not even comply with FCC ‘safety’ standards. …These standards [are totally outdated and] were not designed to protect a diverse population from non-thermals effects of continuous exposure to microwave and radiowave radiation. Therefore, these ‘safety’ standards were not designed to protect the public from health problems under the circumstances which the meters are being used.”
| Smart meters aren't CSA approved because they aren't consumer products. They are, however, IEEE, IEC, and ANSI approved. Quote:
“Smart” Meters are a new type of electronic device that monitors electricity, natural gas, and water usage via radio frequency (RF or rf) in an invisible but dangerous range, between 2.4GHz [GigaHertz] and 5.8Ghz.
| Wrong. They operate in the 900MHz range.
Plus what's so dangerous in the 2.4-5.8Ghz range? Funny, I've got routers that run in that range and I've yet to grow a third eye or an elephant tail. Quote:
In many areas, customers were given no notice that their meters would be changed, or the new meter was put in a day after a brief notice was sent.
| Read the fine print of the contract you signed. I'll guarantee there's a section in there that allows your service provider to upgrade existing units without having to inform you. Quote:
Radiofrequency interference that causes malfunctioning of wireless equipment, such as Wi-Fi and Netflix (7) *Radiofrequency interference that causes malfunctioning of medical and critical-care equipment, such as pacemakers, wireless insulin pumps, pain pumps, ventilators, and baby monitors *Radiofrequency spikes causing appliances to break or malfunction, such as garage doors that won’t open or close properly
| So much facepalm but I'm going to focus on just the pacemaker one...
Actually, no. I'm going to let the AARL speak for me: Pacemaker
Basically as long as you aren't standing inches directly away from the meter, you're fine.
Etc, etc.
You'll also dig up some interesting information when you start researching the different names involved in that article (and those of that website). I know everyone has a bias of some kind, but it's hard to take certain articles seriously when they have a history of harsh line towing.
|
| |
07-30-2013, 01:44 PM
|
#238 | NEWBIE ACCOUNT!
Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: V
Posts: 22
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
|
thanks Lomac, just trying to be more informed Radio Frequency and BC Hydro's Smart Meters
Smart meters communicate using very low power signals.
Unlike other wireless infrastructure, smart meters use very low power signals – about one watt. This is less than 2 microwatts per square centimetre (μW/cm2) when standing adjacent to the meter. A microwatt is one millionth of a watt.
BC Hydro's smart meter signals are far lower than some of the strictest thresholds in the world.
Europe has some of the world’s strictest radiofrequency regulations. Switzerland, for example, has a precautionary limit of 4.5 μW/cm2 for highly sensitive areas like schools and hospitals. In comparison, BC Hydro smart meter signals – at the same distance of 20 centimetres (8 inches) – are less than 2 μW/cm2.
|
| |
07-31-2013, 09:43 AM
|
#239 | Head Moderator
Join Date: Dec 1982 Location: Great White Nor
Posts: 22,661
Thanked 6,462 Times in 2,081 Posts
|
Oh, look what I found in BC Hydro's TOS: Quote:
13.(d) - BC Hydro, but not the Customer, may test, calibrate, remove, install, substitute or otherwise change the revenue metering equipment from time to time at any reasonable time and the Customer may have a representative present at such time.
| Also: Quote:
14.(a) B.C. Hydro may install at its cost at the Customer's Plant any equipment or device which, in BC Hydro's judgement, is required for BC Hydro use or convenience in exercising its rights, or carrying out its obligations under this Agreement and all such equipment or devices, whether affixed or otherwise, by BC Hydro at the Customer's Plant shall remain the property of BC Hydro.
14.(b) To the extent that it may be necessary, the Customer herby grants to BC Hydro, its servants or agents, for the initial term, any extension, and a reasonable time thereafter, the free and uninterrupted right to enter the Customer's Plant for any purpose related to this Agreement.
| |
| |
07-31-2013, 10:03 AM
|
#240 | I WANT MY 10 YEARS BACK FROM RS.net!
Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Abbotstan
Posts: 20,721
Thanked 12,136 Times in 3,361 Posts
|
In short: if we're providing you power, then we have the right to dictate how it's delivered. You signed on the dotted line, therefore you will abide by this, or you don't get our power.
"Oh well, I didn't actually read the fine print" has NEVER stood up in court as a valid excuse, especially when it's not something unreasonable.
And again: nobody has the RIGHT to electric power, and nobody is REQUIRED to use BC Hydro's service. Put up your own windmill, or burn candles - there's always a choice.
__________________ Quote:
Originally Posted by Godzira Does anyone know how many to a signature? | .. Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianrietta Not a sebberry post goes by where I don't frown and think to myself "so..?" | |
| |
07-31-2013, 01:37 PM
|
#241 | My homepage has been set to RS
Join Date: May 2005 Location: #604
Posts: 2,267
Thanked 2,454 Times in 813 Posts
|
^^ It's what happens when you have only 1 corporation supplying power. Working in the high-voltage power business, we've gotten used to: Whatever BC Hydro wants, you give it to them. Or else you're SOL.
__________________ Quote: [17-03, 09:23] Amuro Ray is it normal for my dick to have things growing on it? | Quote: [15-05, 13:34] FastAnna You guise are like diet coke and I am the mentos
[15-05, 13:34] FastAnna Incredible. How easy it is. | Quote:
Originally Posted by murd0c I'm scared of spiders... When I see one I toss my cats at it | |
| |
07-31-2013, 02:43 PM
|
#242 | RS has made me the bitter person i am today!
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,968
Thanked 2,459 Times in 1,126 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by melloman ^^ It's what happens when you have only 1 corporation supplying power. Working in the high-voltage power business, we've gotten used to: Whatever BC Hydro wants, you give it to them. Or else you're SOL. | How many jurisdictions in the developed world have competing electric companies? Look what happened when we let the chains off of BC/Terasen Gas. Lots of people got duped into signing bad deals for gas. But, I guess allowing bad choices is better than no choice?
There are many reasons why a government allows a monopoly for electricity. Posted via RS Mobile |
| |
07-31-2013, 03:23 PM
|
#243 | In RS I Trust
Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Mission
Posts: 20,633
Thanked 17,581 Times in 4,297 Posts
|
If you don't like it run your house on propane like a lot of places up north
|
| |
07-31-2013, 04:24 PM
|
#244 | ...in the world.
Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Richmond
Posts: 28,466
Thanked 7,636 Times in 2,321 Posts
|
Isn't this a pretty open and shut case? How is it that a judge hasn't thrown it out yet? It's in the TOS.
|
| |
07-31-2013, 04:52 PM
|
#245 | The Lone Wanderator
Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Burnaby
Posts: 12,090
Thanked 4,367 Times in 1,137 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin Isn't this a pretty open and shut case? How is it that a judge hasn't thrown it out yet? It's in the TOS. | Due process is, unfortunately, process. Can't just look at a case and go "HAH!" in a Krebapple way and then throw it out. As much as they may be inclined to.
|
| |
08-02-2013, 08:16 PM
|
#246 | RS Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: vancouver
Posts: 8,778
Thanked 1,265 Times in 618 Posts
|
Lol. Traum and cic rambling bs in the same thread
|
| |
08-02-2013, 08:36 PM
|
#247 | The Lone Wanderator
Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Burnaby
Posts: 12,090
Thanked 4,367 Times in 1,137 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Spidey Lol. Traum and cic rambling bs in the same thread | Thank you for your incredibly detailed and informative post. It's rare that people take so much time out of their day on Revscene to elaborate on their points of view in such precise detail and with such gusto as you.
I tip my hat to you, good sir.
|
| |
08-02-2013, 10:54 PM
|
#248 | I WANT MY 10 YEARS BACK FROM RS.net!
Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Abbotstan
Posts: 20,721
Thanked 12,136 Times in 3,361 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by murd0c If you don't like it run your house on propane like a lot of places up north | Like I've said before, I have a friend lives up behind Boston Bar that's running his place completely off-the-grid, yet has internet access from no fewer than three different providers (local WiFi service, satellite, and Bell 4G) so he can view his home cameras remotely... runs his own power generation off a local stream (including some really brilliant engineering) and solar with a shitload of batteries for storage and some big-ass inverters... yeah, it took some time and money to set up, but he pays no electric bills, doesn't have or need an electric meter of ANY kind, and doesn't have to worry about anyone's TOS.
And to once again quote a famous TV character, "There is always choice. We say that there is no choice only to comfort ourselves with a decision we have already made."
People want their utilities spoon-fed to them, don't want to have to put in any effort... then complain when the people who DO put in the time and the effort and front all the money for the service, want to do something to make THEIR lives easier and more efficient. Well sorry, fucktards - suck it up, or ship out. Nobody fucking OWES you anything, least of all BC Hydro. You DO NOT have a Constitutional fucking right to electricity, you ARE NOT fucking REQUIRED to use BC Hydro's service, and you ARE FUCKING REQUIRED to abide by the TOS of any service provider you CHOOSE to use... be it for power, or cable, or internet, or phone service, or satellite TV, or...
__________________ Quote:
Originally Posted by Godzira Does anyone know how many to a signature? | .. Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianrietta Not a sebberry post goes by where I don't frown and think to myself "so..?" | |
| |
08-03-2013, 05:49 PM
|
#249 | RS Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: vancouver
Posts: 8,778
Thanked 1,265 Times in 618 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Graeme S Thank you for your incredibly detailed and informative post. It's rare that people take so much time out of their day on Revscene to elaborate on their points of view in such precise detail and with such gusto as you.
I tip my hat to you, good sir. | anytime my friend. I didn't get to my post count doing it paragraph by paragraph.
|
| | | |
Posting Rules
| You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts HTML code is Off | | | All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:54 AM. |