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Old 12-17-2015, 11:55 AM   #4426
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To be clear ICEBOY, I'm not calling all places in POCO dumpsters. Just likely what you can rent for $650 to house a family to be a dumpster.
I knew what you meant lol.

2br, 1ba, 700-900sqft, basement suites around here, rent for roughly $900-1200.

PoCo is a dump, full of rednecks and inbred hillbillies. It's so far out of the way, no restaurants, hardly anywhere to go after 5pm, no transit and don't forget that damned pig farm is here. There are much better places to live in Bby, NW and even Surrey. If I were looking for a place, it wouldn't be in this city.
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Old 12-17-2015, 12:01 PM   #4427
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The whole "can't afford in Vancouver" is completely true, and it really boils down to: get fucking used to it.

If you want to buy, and don't want to compromise on anything, go East. Chiliwack has beautiful, brand new homes for 1/4 of the price of a Vancouver special. Yet again the issue with this is, "I don't want to commute that far", well then bash your head into a wall because that's what you get.

With this whole "work harder" issue, it certainly comes down to: compromise. People have voiced they don't have the drive to move up in their fields, they don't want to have 2 jobs, they don't want to work FT and go to nightschool to upgrade. Well then, please and stop complaining. Ofcourse for some people, luck is involved and they just cruise through life, yet lots of people work 2-3 jobs, work 14 hour days, or continuously go to school to learn more and be a more valuable person to their company (you get paid more this way).

Lifestyle plays a part where people don't want to give up going out to eat 4 times a week, or going to bars drinking every weekend.. or going golfing/go-karting/movie nights/dancing/etc. Well, it's either you make more money or you save more money. Again it comes down to fucking compromise.

The younger generation is spoiled to the sense that, they expect to put in a certain amount of work, and get a certain amount back. But we as adults should be able to clearly recognize, that's not how life works. I have many friends that went to university and took easy classes to enjoy their younger years, they got a degree that is more then useless, and then they wonder why they can't find a job in a field that isn't in demand locally. Now they're going back to trade schools to get something more useful locally. (Good way to waste alot of money, and waste 4-5 years of your life)

This is how I can call the younger generation lazy. Sure there are lots of them who have a well thought-out plan for their future, but so many just want to enjoy themselves and cruise through life. When that doesn't happen they bitch and moan. "Why can't I get a $80k+ job? I have my degree in arts!"
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Old 12-17-2015, 12:21 PM   #4428
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The thing is I don't disagree with you for the most part. Its just that I think you haven't acknowledged HOW ridiculous its gotten. There are going to be serious negative consequences when teachers, police officers, nurses, chefs, etc. can't/won't afford to live here.
Either wages go up, or housing goes down. There is a breaking point.
Speaking of police officers, I was seriously considering an RCMP or CBSA application in the past. "Recruiters" from both agencies basically told me that if I wanted to go back to the Lower Mainland instead of getting deployed elsewhere in Canada, it would be very easy, as the majority of new officers don't want to live here b/c the cost of living is too high compared to their rate of pay. Basically, for them it comes down to scraping by in the Lower Mainland, or having a pretty great quality of life pretty much anywhere else. Same reason most companies establish plants, corporate HQs, etc, in Ontario rather than here. So yes, in a sense this is already happening. Will we see a drastic "brain drain" in our lifetime? Honestly, in the next 10-20 years it's a possibility if housing goes up and wages stay relatively the same...
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Old 12-17-2015, 12:43 PM   #4429
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Lots of arts majors are making 80K in this city. You're just hanging with the wrong crowd.

The problem is that at that salary (X2), it's difficult to afford the lifestyle that our parents had who were far less educated, worldly, and people savvy than us (typically blue-collar first/second gen immigrants). I reckon that many of us are far more knowledgeable when it comes to investing, probably more risk tolerant, and add more value to any organization than they ever did. Many of us who are now entering our 30s have to juggle saving for our own family's collective future (RESPs, TFSAs), the demands of the daily grind, while keeping an eye on our inlaws and our own parents to ensure they don't entirely screw up their retirement and become reliant on us (chances are if they make it to 60, they'll live into their 80s.)

On a personal note, sure, I could move but there's no guarantee that I'll be able to find a similar paying job elsewhere that offers the benefits I currently enjoy. And as my parents/inlaws age, someone is going to have to manage their affairs. We're both the oldest in our respective families, so it will be up to us to do it. Will spending thousands on cross-country flights to visit, manage medical conditions, sell the family homes and assets, and overall estate planning be worth it?
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Old 12-17-2015, 01:00 PM   #4430
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Originally Posted by fliptuner View Post
I knew what you meant lol.

2br, 1ba, 700-900sqft, basement suites around here, rent for roughly $900-1200.

PoCo is a dump, full of rednecks and inbred hillbillies. It's so far out of the way, no restaurants, hardly anywhere to go after 5pm, no transit and don't forget that damned pig farm is here. There are much better places to live in Bby, NW and even Surrey. If I were looking for a place, it wouldn't be in this city.


i know what you mean about rednecks and hillbillies though, the proportion is definitely higher here
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Old 12-17-2015, 02:00 PM   #4431
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i know what you mean about rednecks and hillbillies though, the proportion is definitely higher here
You will see that crowd slowly changing and migrating to pitt meadows and maple ridge
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Old 12-17-2015, 04:44 PM   #4432
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Renting isn't acceptable? Paying 650-800 a month to house a family seems pretty reasonable to me
1 BR + den suite available Feb 1st.


I am not going to comment on the price or location of that place but simply point you to the bottom of the ad - "Employment, credit and references required & will be checked."

I am very surprised the landlord did not require to know what car the tenant's drives and have the tenant do criminal background check as well as talking to their grade 10 high school teachers.

Now look, I have nothing against landlords doing their DDs on potential tenants. But by your callous comment you have to be seriously deluding yourself if you believe renting is a simple and easy alternative to buying.

Ironically, getting a mortgage at the bank requires almost the same thing. Anyone who's got a few brain cells knows renting is ultimately a sucker's game and all the long-term tenants in greater Vancouver paid dear prices (pun intended) for not buying 10 or even 5 years ago.
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Old 12-18-2015, 02:31 AM   #4433
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The whole "can't afford in Vancouver" is completely true, and it really boils down to: get fucking used to it.

If you want to buy, and don't want to compromise on anything, go East. Chiliwack has beautiful, brand new homes for 1/4 of the price of a Vancouver special. Yet again the issue with this is, "I don't want to commute that far", well then bash your head into a wall because that's what you get.

With this whole "work harder" issue, it certainly comes down to: compromise. People have voiced they don't have the drive to move up in their fields, they don't want to have 2 jobs, they don't want to work FT and go to nightschool to upgrade. Well then, please and stop complaining. Ofcourse for some people, luck is involved and they just cruise through life, yet lots of people work 2-3 jobs, work 14 hour days, or continuously go to school to learn more and be a more valuable person to their company (you get paid more this way).

Lifestyle plays a part where people don't want to give up going out to eat 4 times a week, or going to bars drinking every weekend.. or going golfing/go-karting/movie nights/dancing/etc. Well, it's either you make more money or you save more money. Again it comes down to fucking compromise.

The younger generation is spoiled to the sense that, they expect to put in a certain amount of work, and get a certain amount back. But we as adults should be able to clearly recognize, that's not how life works. I have many friends that went to university and took easy classes to enjoy their younger years, they got a degree that is more then useless, and then they wonder why they can't find a job in a field that isn't in demand locally. Now they're going back to trade schools to get something more useful locally. (Good way to waste alot of money, and waste 4-5 years of your life)

This is how I can call the younger generation lazy. Sure there are lots of them who have a well thought-out plan for their future, but so many just want to enjoy themselves and cruise through life. When that doesn't happen they bitch and moan. "Why can't I get a $80k+ job? I have my degree in arts!"
Or people will move to another area which has better jobs and cheaper homes.

Please don't kid yourself, other than ok weather, Vancouver is not a world-class city (just look at how sad public transportation is). There are very few unique industries in the city and outside of government or healthcare jobs, there are very few good paying careers available. Even the business capital of Canada, Toronto doesn't have as severe unaffordability problems as Vancouver.

To give you perspective, my job in Vancouver paid me about 82k per year (52k net), topping out at about 90k-100k if I become a manager. The same job in Hong Kong pays me 110k net to start, so it was a no-brainer. I'm sure many others could make way more elsewhere. Eventually more and more younger people will be fed up and just leave.

Well guess what happens when you guys retire and you have this big empty void of taxpayers because you chased out the young from the city?
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Old 12-18-2015, 09:02 AM   #4434
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Enough of the Hong Kong bs, apples and oranges.
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Old 12-18-2015, 10:38 AM   #4435
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Old 12-18-2015, 01:37 PM   #4436
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You will see that crowd slowly changing and migrating to pitt meadows and maple ridge
Just like their parents and grandparents did when they moved further east to PoCo because all us chinamen and turban heads started buying and living in East Vancouver and parts of Burnaby.


Eventually, their offspring grow up and get fed up with living far east in the sticks and will want to move west. Renting the same scuzzy old homes that our coloured parents and grandparents bought from their parents and grandparents.

ah, the racial demographics of real estate in Vancouver.
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Old 12-18-2015, 05:09 PM   #4437
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Enough of the Hong Kong bs, apples and oranges.
Do you really think so? Look at your source of immigrants, look at the source of funding for the upper end housing. Is it a coincidence that Vancouver is bearing the brunt of Chinese money(including HK money) and unaffordability? If you can call it apples and oranges, then so be it. If you think Vancouver is an uncomparable fairyland, then so be it. It isn't a coincidence Hong Kong are number 1 and 2 on the list of housing unaffordability, just like how it isn't a coincidence its nickname is Hongcouver. If you want, you can show me another city that is more comparable. Or are you going to say you cant compare cities?

Instead of giving an unintelligent statement on apples and oranges without providing anything to refute my arguments and then covering your head in sand, you should acknowledge the problem and work to resolve it. Do it or don't, only affects your own future.

Edit:
Here's some stats for you:

Least Affordable Major Markets: (based on median house price divided by median household income);http://www.demographia.com/dhi.pdf
1. Hong Kong 17.0
2. Vancouver, BC 10.6
3. Sydney, Australia 9.8
4. San Francisco, CA 9.2
5. San Jose, CA 9.2
6. Tweeds Heads, Australia 9.0
7. Bournemouth & Dorsett, UK 9.0
8. Honolulu, HI 9.0
9. Melbourne, Australia 8.7
10. Santa Cruz, Cali 8.6
Look at the top 3, and guess why they're in the top 3? And you know what's surprising? All of them except Vancouver has property cooling measures in place (stamp duties, foreign ownership restriction), except Vancouverites think they're special. That some god decided their land was holy. Australia was smarter and realized that those cities clearly weren't world-class cities comparable to New York, London, etc and there was no reasonable explanation for prices there and acted.

Look at Singapore. World-class city, world-class city incomes and jobs, but no real democracy. Yet people there are generally happy. Why? Home ownership restrictions so that the middle class doesn't get left behind.

There. Cities other than Hong Kong. Every city on that list that doesn't have home ownership restrictions actually belong on that list for various reasons.

Here's some more stats (http://www.newgeography.com/content/...money-object):
Metropolitan Areas (GDP Per Capita):
Hong Kong: $35,700
Vancouver: $37,600
Sydney: $40,100
San Francisco: $65400
San Jose: $78,700
Melbourne: $37,100

Hey look! Hong Kong and Vancouver almost have identical gdps per capita. Oh sorry my bad, we can't compare them. "Apples and oranges" - Hondaracer

Here's a good read on how your landscape is changing based on immigration. Pay close attention to the number of "investor immigrants" from china.
http://www.scmp.com/comment/blogs/ar...e-why?page=all

Last edited by twdm; 12-18-2015 at 06:00 PM.
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Old 12-18-2015, 07:59 PM   #4438
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Spoiler!
While I can appreciate that you've provided some statistics they don't necessarily support your argument in any way.

Data is open to interpretation, you've elected to believe that the statistics you posted somehow support the idea that that HK'ers are responsible for the rapid appreciation in home prices in Vancouver. Others may not feel that these statistics really support your position...

Believe whatever you want to believe I guess. If you believe that HK'ers are the reason we have to live in shoe boxes would you care to speculate on when the madness ends and how? Do prices go up forever? Do they stabilize? When do they stabilize? Will the HK'ers make a dramatic flee for the hills one day? etc.

I'm currently considering buying a place in N.Van worth just >1M, even though I think the prices are bananas, the interest rates make it attractive to me. What does that tell you? It tells you that moderately well-to-do Canadian yuppies are willing to take on massive mortgages because money is cheap.
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Old 12-18-2015, 08:08 PM   #4439
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Originally Posted by twdm View Post
Do you really think so? Look at your source of immigrants, look at the source of funding for the upper end housing. Is it a coincidence that Vancouver is bearing the brunt of Chinese money(including HK money) and unaffordability? If you can call it apples and oranges, then so be it. If you think Vancouver is an uncomparable fairyland, then so be it. It isn't a coincidence Hong Kong are number 1 and 2 on the list of housing unaffordability, just like how it isn't a coincidence its nickname is Hongcouver. If you want, you can show me another city that is more comparable. Or are you going to say you cant compare cities?

Instead of giving an unintelligent statement on apples and oranges without providing anything to refute my arguments and then covering your head in sand, you should acknowledge the problem and work to resolve it. Do it or don't, only affects your own future.

Edit:
Here's some stats for you:

Least Affordable Major Markets: (based on median house price divided by median household income);http://www.demographia.com/dhi.pdf
1. Hong Kong 17.0
2. Vancouver, BC 10.6
3. Sydney, Australia 9.8
4. San Francisco, CA 9.2
5. San Jose, CA 9.2
6. Tweeds Heads, Australia 9.0
7. Bournemouth & Dorsett, UK 9.0
8. Honolulu, HI 9.0
9. Melbourne, Australia 8.7
10. Santa Cruz, Cali 8.6
Look at the top 3, and guess why they're in the top 3? And you know what's surprising? All of them except Vancouver has property cooling measures in place (stamp duties, foreign ownership restriction), except Vancouverites think they're special. That some god decided their land was holy. Australia was smarter and realized that those cities clearly weren't world-class cities comparable to New York, London, etc and there was no reasonable explanation for prices there and acted.

Look at Singapore. World-class city, world-class city incomes and jobs, but no real democracy. Yet people there are generally happy. Why? Home ownership restrictions so that the middle class doesn't get left behind.

There. Cities other than Hong Kong. Every city on that list that doesn't have home ownership restrictions actually belong on that list for various reasons.

Here's some more stats (http://www.newgeography.com/content/...money-object):
Metropolitan Areas (GDP Per Capita):
Hong Kong: $35,700
Vancouver: $37,600
Sydney: $40,100
San Francisco: $65400
San Jose: $78,700
Melbourne: $37,100

Hey look! Hong Kong and Vancouver almost have identical gdps per capita. Oh sorry my bad, we can't compare them. "Apples and oranges" - Hondaracer

Here's a good read on how your landscape is changing based on immigration. Pay close attention to the number of "investor immigrants" from china.
Here are immigration statistics Vancouver isn?t supposed to see. Why the secrecy? | South China Morning Post
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Old 12-18-2015, 09:08 PM   #4440
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you cant cite singapore and happiness... whenever I go to singapore they are the most miserable bunch and nobody smiles. They don't even have minimum wage. Have you noticed how every menial job in singapore from hawker centre cleaners to mcdonalds are all elderly folks? And a corolla is like $60K USD plus licensing fee.
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Old 12-18-2015, 09:28 PM   #4441
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The only person in here in the last few pages that is a complete idiot has been you. Wether you agree with twdm or not, at least he forms cognitive thoughts and uses reasons and data to represent his opinion. There are lots of people in here I agree or disagree with, however unlike you, they all represent their opinions with reasons for them.
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Old 12-18-2015, 09:34 PM   #4442
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From my understanding the only people that can afford houses in Singapore are foreigners and a Civic costs 100K plus you have to have a parking spot before you can buy the car.
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Old 12-18-2015, 09:53 PM   #4443
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Quoting blogs is all fine and good. It comes down to desirability.

North America sees Vancouver as an attractive city. Europe sees Vancouver as an attractive city. Asia sees Vancouver as an attractive city.

Who willingly wants to move to HK outside of the predominantly Chinese RS population?

With the global climate going the way it is, literal "safe havens" like Vancouver are looking more and more attractive each day. To -everyone-

It's a lot like posters on the last few pages have said. Whether you like it or not, you better get into the market or move out of the way, because things are moving with or without you.

Also this whole "brain drain" thing sure isn't effecting like, literally everyone I know/associate myself with? Lol young professionals at every level, entry level workers, trades, nurses, etc all have jobs and doing well?

Is the "brain drain" effecting those who can punch numbers and pass tests in school but couldn't pass an interview at mcdicks?
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Old 12-18-2015, 10:04 PM   #4444
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Originally Posted by jasonturbo View Post
While I can appreciate that you've provided some statistics they don't necessarily support your argument in any way.

Data is open to interpretation, you've elected to believe that the statistics you posted somehow support the idea that that HK'ers are responsible for the rapid appreciation in home prices in Vancouver. Others may not feel that these statistics really support your position...

Believe whatever you want to believe I guess. If you believe that HK'ers are the reason we have to live in shoe boxes would you care to speculate on when the madness ends and how? Do prices go up forever? Do they stabilize? When do they stabilize? Will the HK'ers make a dramatic flee for the hills one day? etc.

I'm currently considering buying a place in N.Van worth just >1M, even though I think the prices are bananas, the interest rates make it attractive to me. What does that tell you? It tells you that moderately well-to-do Canadian yuppies are willing to take on massive mortgages because money is cheap.
Nowhere did I say that Hker's were responsible for the dramatic rise in housing prices. I am saying the markets run parallel to each other because they have the similar influences affecting them. You are misinterpreting my argument. I am saying they are comparable.

Hong Kong is affected significantly by mainland money and upper class money which drives up unaffordability. The same is happening in Vancouver. You can deny it all you want, but the data on immigration matches with housing trends and with the city councillor's data.

Vancouver is different from Hong Kong in that people are free to leave and move to other cities in Canada at whim. People in Hong Kong cannot do that, so instead it manifests as social discord and disorder. So what will end up happening in Vancouver is one of the two scenarios or somewhere in between:
1. Social disorder/protests which will either be addressed, or if they're stupid enough ignored, leading to further escalation of conflict; which is what you see in Hong Kong now
2. Young families are driven out to more affordable cities with better career prospects leading to major problems for the city as the current people retire

These two scenarios will play out to eventually cause decreasing property values as either crime increases or demand decreases. When companies can't find people willing to relocate for work due to housing costs, they move to other cities which worsens the problem. It becomes a self-destructive cycle, which is why it needs to be addressed before the ball starts rolling down the hill. Not only that, Chinese money is going to stop flowing in eventually, as the investor program was largely stopped by the conservative government. Xi Jinping's government in China is also cracking down on cross-border money laundering, and unlike western countries, they will do it however they want (arrest family, blackmail them, execute family members). Actually recently they just abducted one of the richest men in China for a week and no one knew where he went, so if you think the gravy train will continue forever, think again. People break down when they're at the end of a gun barrel.

To answer your question about your house buying situation. A 900k (1 mil minus 100k down) mortgage requires almost $5k monthly to service at today's interest rates.
https://www.tdcanadatrust.com/mortga...alculator.form
(I used 5 year fixed, amortized over 25 years)

So firstly, let's talk about your "moderate well-to-do" statement. To make $5k net, your annual income, you need to make 60k net a year. You need to make $80k a year and you'll have 0 money for food, gas, insurance etc. So realistically, you need to make $100k+ to service this debt and live like a pauper. If you have children, a non-working spouse etc, this will go up even more.

The median household income in Vancouver from 2013 was $73k. So assuming the worse case scenario for me and you barely scrape by 100k a year. How would you be considered only moderately well-to-do? How many people in Canada make 100k+ and have 100k just sitting in the bank? I would guess it would at least be at the top 5% or better.

Last edited by twdm; 12-18-2015 at 10:13 PM.
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Old 12-18-2015, 10:31 PM   #4445
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Quoting blogs is all fine and good. It comes down to desirability.

North America sees Vancouver as an attractive city. Europe sees Vancouver as an attractive city. Asia sees Vancouver as an attractive city.

Who willingly wants to move to HK outside of the predominantly Chinese RS population?

With the global climate going the way it is, literal "safe havens" like Vancouver are looking more and more attractive each day. To -everyone-

It's a lot like posters on the last few pages have said. Whether you like it or not, you better get into the market or move out of the way, because things are moving with or without you.

Also this whole "brain drain" thing sure isn't effecting like, literally everyone I know/associate myself with? Lol young professionals at every level, entry level workers, trades, nurses, etc all have jobs and doing well?

Is the "brain drain" effecting those who can punch numbers and pass tests in school but couldn't pass an interview at mcdicks?
Firstly, it's "affecting" (just as an FYI, not as an insult).

Secondly most young professionals are not at the point where they want to settle down yet and own their own place. When that time comes, and they can either for instance, work in Seattle for $100k USD, and own a decent place for 4-500k near town, or work in Vancouver for $80k CAD and live in a 500k place in Abbotsford, I'm sure most people would go for the latter. It may not be everyone, but there will be a brain drain.

Thirdly, I'm not quite sure what your point is about Hong Kong. I merely stated the two situations are similar. I never said Hong Kong is in a better situation than Vancouver. In fact, I've been saying Hong Kong is what Vancouver will become if they don't act now.

Lastly, I'm not quite sure whether your last comment is a veiled attempt to insult me or not, but as part of the healthcare profession, I can say many professionals with more education than nurses (university trained and above) have moved to other cities in Canada or even within BC. A brain drain is supposed to be slow and gradual, so the fact not every single "professional" you know has moved away is a normal observation. Maybe you should ask your nursing friends why they have such significant manpower shortages, and constantly have to work overtime/shortstaffed etc, since you believe Vancouver is the best place to be. Vancouver is very uncompetitive in the global workforce market, and as the population ages, healthcare professionals are going to be lured away to other cities that pay better and have better affordability.

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Old 12-18-2015, 10:52 PM   #4446
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there is still a lot of room for the housing price to grow. the price for land is still at a bargain compared to many cities. Since canada has lost its attraction as the one of the top destination for the average chinese immigrants, but this will only make Vancouver stand out even more for the somewhat wealthy.
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Old 12-18-2015, 11:16 PM   #4447
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To answer your question about your house buying situation. A 900k (1 mil minus 100k down) mortgage requires almost $5k monthly to service at today's interest rates.
https://www.tdcanadatrust.com/mortga...alculator.form
(I used 5 year fixed, amortized over 25 years)
Agree with everything in your post.

However, the quoted part - those are posted rates, your 900K mortgage would probably have a monthly payment closer to $3900-$4400 depending on bank, terms (variable/3 yr / 5 yr, etc.)

still a shit load of money to service every month though. And you can't even get a tear down for a $1 million anymore in east van, so expect to pay more.
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Old 12-19-2015, 01:25 AM   #4448
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A brain drain is supposed to be slow and gradual, so the fact not every single "professional" you know has moved away is a normal observation. Maybe you should ask your nursing friends why they have such significant manpower shortages, and constantly have to work overtime/shortstaffed etc, since you believe Vancouver is the best place to be. Vancouver is very uncompetitive in the global workforce market, and as the population ages, healthcare professionals are going to be lured away to other cities that pay better and have better affordability.
Nursing shortages has nothing to do with being short nurses, it has to do with a messed up healthcare system. My wife is a nurse and as a result I know lots of nurses. They are pumping out so many RNs/LPNs that there are not enough positions for them. There will always be places offering more money but the majority of people chose to stay, a good example is Dubai, you can make a hell of a lot of money there in healthcare but very few actually do go.
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Old 12-19-2015, 03:55 AM   #4449
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Nursing shortages has nothing to do with being short nurses, it has to do with a messed up healthcare system. My wife is a nurse and as a result I know lots of nurses. They are pumping out so many RNs/LPNs that there are not enough positions for them. There will always be places offering more money but the majority of people chose to stay, a good example is Dubai, you can make a hell of a lot of money there in healthcare but very few actually do go.
Well, I actually have access to Fraser Health's Internal hiring systems and both my parents work as nurses in BC. So I think I might have a little more insight than you.

This is in addition to the 591 postings to their external website. Note, these are ones that have gone through the internal process and were unable to hire anyone.

https://careers.fraserhealth.ca/Sear...ngs&search=all
Just filter Nurse

This is in addition to the other Health authorities in BC/Renal Agency/Cancer Agency/Providence Health/Vancouver Coastal and whatever I missed.
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Old 12-19-2015, 11:10 AM   #4450
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I work in the healthcare system also and what I do see is that the older people do move away from Vancouver to maple ridge or Langley. Then their position gets filled by either single new out of school people or people from out of country who wants to live here for a couple years. Then those out of towers moves away again or the young out of school person gets marry have kids and the again move away from Vancouver. So the turn over rate is high, and every time there's a turn over there's training time, which means we need. Extra nurse to cover while the one person is training and so we r now short because we can try to find a casual to cover but it's difficult. Smaller community hospital do not see much turnover because that's where people go to retire, much easier work than a trauma centre like vgh rch or smh. Which is why the big hospital is always short, due to the turnover mostly. And the turnover cost a lot of money when ur paying to train and find extra person to cover if u can. Retention is a difficult problem from those places
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