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Vancouver Off-Topic / Current EventsThe off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.
OTTAWA — The first of a group of 200 temporary Chinese workers approved by the federal government will start arriving in B.C. in coming weeks to work in the burgeoning northeast coal industry, a mine project spokeswoman confirmed Tuesday.
In total, anywhere from 1,600 to just under 2,000 Chinese nationals could find full-time work in four projects being proposed in coming years for the region, due to the shortage of underground mining skills in Canada, according to industry officials.
The four projects could create an estimated 480 to 800 full-time mining jobs for Canadians.
Canadians “just don’t have the experience” operating the equipment needed to safely extract coal in underground mines, said John Cavanagh, chief executive of Vancouver-based Canadian Dehua International Mines Group Inc., a company founded by China-born Vancouver businessman Naishun Liu.
“Without the Chinese and the technology they’re bringing … these particular mines would not have been developed.”
The companies backing the mine projects say their goal is to gradually train Canadians to replace the Chinese.
Cavanagh noted that it will be “many years” between the projected 2015 opening of the first mine and the fourth mine, due to the need for more exploration, mine design, environmental review, and government approval for all projects.
The necessity of foreign workers wasn’t mentioned in B.C. Premier Christy Clark’s Nov. 9, 2011, news release from Beijing, in which she announced $1.4 billion in Chinese funding for two of the four coal projects.
“This investment clearly shows how confident China is in British Columbia’s world-class mining resources and strong investment climate,” Clark said.
“These two projects support our B.C. Jobs Plan and according to the companies will create over 6,700 jobs and other economic benefits for British Columbians.”
Cavanagh stressed that the four mines will create numerous spinoff jobs for British Columbians – three for every one full-time job generated — as well as significant personal and corporate tax revenues.
The 200 workers who got federal government approval under the Temporary Foreign Worker (TFW) program will participate in a 100,000-tonne bulk sampling of a coal seam at the proposed Murray River underground coal mine located on the eastern side of the Rocky Mountains about 10 kilometres southwest of Tumbler Ridge.
This is the most advanced of four underground mines being developed in the region by a number of Chinese companies working with Canadian Dehua. Each is expected to employ an estimated 600 workers.
Up to 480 of those employees at the Murray River project will be Chinese nationals brought in under the TFW program, said Jody Shimkus, vice-president of environmental and regulatory affairs at HD Mining International Ltd., Canadian Dehua’s major partner in the project.
Canadian Dehua’s Cavanagh said all four mines will have roughly the same number of overall workers, and roughly the same proportion of Chinese workers who are being brought in because they are familiar with equipment used in a form of underground coal extraction called longwall mining.
However, he said it could be misleading to assume all four projects will have a full complement of 400-480 Chinese nationals working underground at the same time, since all are at various stages of development.
The earliest project to be fully operational is the Murray River mine, in 2015.
Stephen Hunt, western director for the United Steelworkers union, ridiculed Tuesday the suggestion Canadians couldn’t be trained to work underground.
“Bullshit,” he said of Cavanagh’s assertions.
“That’s just a cop-out, a way to bring in guest workers who are going to go into a camp, contribute virtually nothing to the economy, and then when they’re done they’ll be sent back to China,” he said.
Citizenship and Immigration Canada spokeswoman Nancy Caron said the TFW program is employer-driven and usually requires that companies prove they are unable to find suitable Canadians to fill the job posts.
She and various industry officials said Canada’s labour shortage in the mining sector is well-documented.
Caroline McAndrews, spokeswoman for Jobs, Tourism and Innovation Minister Pat Bell, said the B.C. government is working with Ottawa and the mining, construction and technology sectors to meet “urgent” labour and skills shortages.
“The province continues to invest in efforts to ensure that British Columbians have the skills and training required to take advantage of employment opportunities across B.C., as outlined in the recently released Skills and Training Plan for B.C.,” she said in a statement.
Mining Association of B.C. president Karina Brino said there will be a widespread shortage of skilled labour over the next decade in B.C. even without expected growth in the mining sector.
There is only one underground mine in B.C., on Vancouver Island, she noted. “So definitely there’s going to be a need for that specific skill set.”
An internal C.I.C. document made public Tuesday noted the growth of coal mine development involving Chinese firms in northeastern B.C.
“These mining operations could eventually see several hundreds of … underground miners coming to Canada” under the TFW program, concluded the C.I.C. document obtained by immigration lawyer Richard Kurland.
Cavanagh said the Chinese workers in northeastern B.C. will receive a “competitive” wage, but Steelworkers spokesman Hunt said the company is clearly hoping to keep labour costs down by using Canada’s TFW program to make sure it has low-wage workers.
Hunt also warned of safety concerns, citing the numerous coal mining deaths that occur in China.
“We’ve been tracking coal mine disasters weekly and the numbers are staggering again this year. It’s just a terrible place to be for a coal miner.”
The China Mine Disaster Watch, a website kept by the U.S. Mine Rescue Association, says there were more than 50,000 coal mine deaths in the 2001-2011 period. But deaths have declined over that time, from a high of 6,995 in 2002 to 1,973 last year.
Cavanagh said there are old mines using old technology in China, and more modern ones using “state of the art” systems. He said the Canadian mines will use the latter technology.
“We have to operate under Canadian and British Columbia rules. The standards are not Chinese standards,” he said.
The C.I.C. report said the federal government is working closely with the B.C. government to ensure workers have enough English language skills to help in the “transition” of knowledge from Chinese to Canadian workers.
Cavanagh said the training will involve teaching Chinese workers roughly 100 English words, all related to safety. There will also be translators on site with technical expertise, he added.
Not a fan of this as most of the Chinese workers will just save up all their money and send it back home. If we can get workers from other provinces ie. newfoundland and nova scotia (if they can be trained to work on Oil rigs, they can be trained to work coal mines). Rather have canadians working and keeping the money within Canada.
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that's just wrong same with bringing in mexicans to farm
as long as there are people on welfare and living on the streets they shouldn't be allowed to
if they claim a lack of experience the companies should have to pay for training programs and then be allowed temporary foreign workers until locals are finished with training and yet in this case we'll be training the chinese workers... how does that make sense
its obvious, as noted, this is just a move to try and keep wages down
Not a fan of this as most of the Chinese workers will just save up all their money and send it back home. If we can get workers from other provinces ie. newfoundland and nova scotia (if they can be trained to work on Oil rigs, they can be trained to work coal mines). Rather have canadians working and keeping the money within Canada.
Of course there going to sent money back to the place they live and have family. You think people from out of province working in Alberta don't send monwy back?
Quote:
Originally Posted by StylinRed
that's just wrong same with bringing in mexicans to farm
as long as there are people on welfare and living on the streets they shouldn't be allowed to
You think every one on welfare or on the want's to work or is capable of holding down a job?
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Wouldn't the exception be the people on welfare and living on the streets that are willing to work and are capable of keeping a job?
And I'm willing to bet most of RSers wouldn't be here if not for cheap chinese labour
Legally if a company applies to hire temporary workers, they cannot pay them less than they would pay a local worker. So the workers they are importing are not necessarily cheap. The government is also not stupid, they won't grant them the ability to hire abroad if there are people here willing to do the job.
Of course there going to sent money back to the place they live and have family. You think people from out of province working in Alberta don't send monwy back?
Well, that money is still being spent/kept within Canada, which imo is still preferable than overseas.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boostaholic
The government is also not stupid, they won't grant them the ability to hire abroad if there are people here willing to do the job.
Except if they're making exceptions just to build better relations with China in hopes that it will lead to something better; that may or may not happen but it doesn't take away that this is a bad deal for locals even more so if nothing else comes from it
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boostaholic
Legally if a company applies to hire temporary workers, they cannot pay them less than they would pay a local worker. So the workers they are importing are not necessarily cheap. The government is also not stupid, they won't grant them the ability to hire abroad if there are people here willing to do the job.
Legally, no.
But you have to consider it this way, they are hiring foreign workers because they have are more of a blank slate.
- they don't know how to fight for their rights
- they have less expectation of raises
- they are used to worse working conditions
- less socializing (oh, how are your kids, oh what party did you go to over the weekend)
- they are less trained when they arrive, and will pay them that amount. so no, they can't pay them less than a local, but they can pay somebody less who has less experience, but is trainable and turn build them into somebody better while cheaper than a local.
I think the big question we have to ask here is the ethics behind this....
- should the government be obligated to intervene or allow the free market to run it's course?
- does the company benefit?
- do the locals benefit?
- do the foreigners benefit?
- does the country benefit? (short and long term implications).
Legally if a company applies to hire temporary workers, they cannot pay them less than they would pay a local worker. So the workers they are importing are not necessarily cheap. The government is also not stupid, they won't grant them the ability to hire abroad if there are people here willing to do the job.
The Chinese managers are not stupid either. They will charge the workers for passage, "visa fees", accomodation, food, etc, etc, at inflated rates so the workers end up making a little more than what they would in China. That's the only reason they are using Chinese workers. You need a couple of workers with specialized skills to operate the machinery and manage the process, not 1600 grunts.
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If this was really about hiring skilled miners, there are lots of countries that you can recruit from, some of which who can actually speak English and train Canadians. Why all from China?
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Is fine with me as long as after the contract is up they are not allow to stay in Canada under any reason. I bet a few will try to stay here though..........
The reasons I think overseas outsourcing is justified are:
1. Low cost of manufacturing means low cost of consumer products. An iPhone cost $8 in labor. It would probably cost $200+ in labor if made in the US. If you're not willing to pay $1500 for your iPhone 5, then quit bitching about how it's made in China.
2. No one is willing to do these jobs for the money or even minimum wage.
I see this as almost the same idea. If BC residents are willing to do the work at the wages offered, then great...give them the jobs but if they're not, outsourcing is fine by me.
However, I don't think this should be "entry level citizenship".
The reasons I think overseas outsourcing is justified are:
1. Low cost of manufacturing means low cost of consumer products. An iPhone cost $8 in labor. It would probably cost $200+ in labor if made in the US. If you're not willing to pay $1500 for your iPhone 5, then quit bitching about how it's made in China.
2. No one is willing to do these jobs for the money or even minimum wage.
I see this as almost the same idea. If BC residents are willing to do the work at the wages offered, then great...give them the jobs but if they're not, outsourcing is fine by me.
However, I don't think this should be "entry level citizenship".
Your theory is based entirely on you believing that any cost savings measures are passed onto the consumer. They simply are not. I can't think of a single product that got cheaper because they moved manufacturing from North America to China... the only thing that changed was the company's profit margin.
No one is willing to do the jobs here for that money because you can't build a life here on that money... if you want to turn the country into a place that only produces work for people in college who just need a part time job or people from out of country that are willing to live in some craphole up North freezing their nuts off sleeping in bunk bed camps just because it's more money than they could make back in their own country so they're willing to do it to send that money back home to family...... I think that's pretty asinine and destructive to community building in Canada.
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