Israel Gaza Conflict thread

[MindBomber]

Originally Posted by CharlesInCharge

Shakespear's early writing is the only thing I can think of which dealt with usury in that time, I just remember the Al Pacino Merchant of Venice movie where he wanted some guys limb cut off for not being able to pay his debts.

Lastly, it cool of you to throw the word anti-semite around without explaining why.

Shakespear's, The Merchant of Venice, is a response to Marlowe's, The Jew of Malta, which is a much more harsh depiction of Jewish people and usury. There are numerous other examples. Distasteful, and often inaccurate, criticism of Jews was a popular subject at the time. One might liken it to criticism of Islam, such as is somewhat popular now.

The taking of a pound of flesh symbolizes religious chastization, and is related to the physical circumcision in Judaism and metaphorical circumcision in Christianity. In the terms of an Elizabeathen playwright, "flesh" actually means penis.

A Hollywood depiction of Shakespeare has roughly the same accuracy as a Westboro Baptist Church depiction of Islam. These types of gross misinterpretations are the reason why Shakespeare went to enormous lengths to try and ensure everything he ever produced died with him (he was partially, and very nearly entirely successful).

I use the word anti-semite, because you expressed an irrational suspicion of Jewish people in your post.

[CharlesInCharge]

Nice, the suspension is killing me, what suspicion of Jews did I post to make me an anti-semite?

Its a fact that Jews were expelled from many European countries, do you know why?
Ive read its because usury was against Christianity and some Jews practiced this... it also doesnt sound too great if some sects of Judaism, or is it believed as a whole?, saying they are a superior human then everyone else. These could be believable reasons as to why they've been expelled as a whole. Im no history buff, only things Ive read on the internet, so maybe you can educate us rather then tease.

[MindBomber]

Originally Posted by CharlesInCharge

Nice, the suspension is killing me, what suspicion of Jews did I post to make me an anti-semite?

Its a fact that Jews were expelled from many European countries, do you know why?
Ive read its because usury was against Christianity and some Jews practiced this... it also doesnt sound too great if some sects of Judaism, or is it believed as a whole?, saying they are a superior human then everyone else. These could be believable reasons as to why they've been expelled as a whole. Im no history buff, only things Ive read on the internet, so maybe you can educate us rather then tease.

Jews were expelled because they were not Christian, no other reason.

Prominent Christian families practiced usury, debilitating interest rates and harsh punishment for lack of payment was the standard practice for anyone who loaned money to anyone. It was like the mafia today, no regulation and greed overriding morals.

You have a strangely significant bias against Judaism for someone who isn't an anti-semite, but maybe you're just going to all the wrong websites for information and its morphing your perspective. I retract my statement if it offends you, I was just calling it as I see it.

[Manic!]

Originally Posted by CharlesInCharge

only things Ive read on the internet.

[G-spec]

well I'm sure some of you are wondering how the recent ceasefire came about....
if you want the western perspective, go watch western news...

the real truth that's being talked about now within the muslim community is that Hamas just received delivery (from Iran) of guided rockets that are actually able to hit targets within Israel with accuracy like never before, I'm talkin like if they wanna hit Israeli military bases they can now, if they want to hit downtown Tel Aviv, they can now, it's nothing like they've had before.....
this offcourse has Israel reconsidering their approach, because now they know they are not free to launch their own attacks into Palestine killing women and children without similar repercussions happening on their own soil.

It's also one of the few reasons why Israel so urgently insists that Iran basically be invaded and overthrown, they are a clear threat to Israel and they don't just sit around try and pass acts uselessly like the UN (just how Israel likes it)

[Graeme S]

Originally Posted by G-spec

well I'm sure some of you are wondering how the recent ceasefire came about....
if you want the western perspective, go watch western news...

the real truth that's being talked about now within the muslim community is that Hamas just received delivery (from Iran) of guided rockets that are actually able to hit targets within Israel with accuracy like never before, I'm talkin like if they wanna hit Israeli military bases they can now, if they want to hit downtown Tel Aviv, they can now, it's nothing like they've had before.....
this offcourse has Israel reconsidering their approach, because now they know they are not free to launch their own attacks into Palestine killing women and children without similar repercussions happening on their own soil.

It's also one of the few reasons why Israel so urgently insists that Iran basically be invaded and overthrown, they are a clear threat to Israel and they don't just sit around try and pass acts uselessly like the UN (just how Israel likes it)

But if the rockets are guided, then it would seem to me that the Iron Dome would be even more effective at knocking them down (good targeting = predictable course = easier to hit).

It's also my understanding that in the first strikes that Israel made, they knocked out launch pads for any type of serious rocket, as well as smuggling routes for further missiles and warheads.



Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it usually a good idea to move from a position of strength? If you've got big guns, open with them and say "Want more of that? No? Then let's negotiate."

It's what the Yanks did to Japan.

[CharlesInCharge]

I hear things like how Zionist calculated how many calories the Gazan's needed just to stay alive on the brink of starvation and how they restricted things like tomato paste and chocolate from being imported.

Why open the boarders and let them cross into Egypt now if this was to teach a lesson.
edit - they also get more farm land back and are able to fish farther with this truce.

Also a rocket or rockets have landed in Tel aviv, so its dome has flaws... even if they where guided by GPS, I doubt any special interceptors are made to intercept their course.

@MindBomber. I dont think things are that simple. Jews expelled from Europe... because Jewish.
And I dont have a bias against the Jewish religion or ethnic peoples, just isrealis and Zionists.

[belka]

Originally Posted by G-spec

the real truth that's being talked about now within the muslim community is that Hamas just received delivery (from Iran) of guided rockets that are actually able to hit targets within Israel with accuracy like never before, I'm talkin like if they wanna hit Israeli military bases they can now, if they want to hit downtown Tel Aviv, they can now, it's nothing like they've had before.....

I can guarantee you that if any of those guided rockets lands in a populated area with serious casualties then Israel would unleash hell on Gaza, there won't be stopping the IDF then. That little shit strip of land will get reoccupied and more Palestinians will die. Another generation wasted away....

[drunkrussian]

Originally Posted by Graeme S

But if the rockets are guided, then it would seem to me that the Iron Dome would be even more effective at knocking them down (good targeting = predictable course = easier to hit).

It's also my understanding that in the first strikes that Israel made, they knocked out launch pads for any type of serious rocket, as well as smuggling routes for further missiles and warheads.



Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it usually a good idea to move from a position of strength? If you've got big guns, open with them and say "Want more of that? No? Then let's negotiate."

It's what the Yanks did to Japan.

Originally Posted by belka

I can guarantee you that if any of those guided rockets lands in a populated area with serious casualties then Israel would unleash hell on Gaza, there won't be stopping the IDF then. That little shit strip of land will get reoccupied and more Palestinians will die. Another generation wasted away....

actually i read that this time around mosques and hospitals are not off limits for bombing, because israel wanted to stress that they are not fucking around this time. Like what you're saying with "want more of that? no? let's negotiate". Not saying i support this, jut saying what i've read.

[wasabisashimi]

I am kinda noob in these international politic stuff, but can someone explain why north korea and south korea don't fire missles at each other and China doesnt drop bombs to Taiwan. This Middle East situation hasn't changed with all the car/bus bombs and lives taken in like past 30yrs.

[drunkrussian]

^my opinion:

because n korea/s korea and twaiwan/china is government vs. government, whereas israel vs. <whatever terrorist group is currently calling shots in palestine> is government vs. terrorist group

terrorists do not participate in political discussion

[Lomac]

The Korean War technically never ended, actually. An armistace was signed, but no peace treaty as ever made. As for why it doesn't simply continue, there have been minor instances between the two countries, but considering NK has China backing them and SK has the USA, any war between the Koreas will suddently become a superpower battle.

[Jason00S2000]

I can't imagine what a nightmare it would be to be born in North Korea... I am fucking thankful for being in Canada, fuck yeah

[Graeme S]

Originally Posted by wasabisashimi

I am kinda noob in these international politic stuff, but can someone explain why north korea and south korea don't fire missles at each other and China doesnt drop bombs to Taiwan. This Middle East situation hasn't changed with all the car/bus bombs and lives taken in like past 30yrs.

North and South Korea don't nuke each other for several reasons. As has been stated previously, they are both still at war. Unfortunately, because this war started back during the days of the cold war, it was (at the time) essentially a proxy war between the US and the USSR. Initially, the US was actually reluctant to support Korea at all, but when they discovered the level of support China and the USSR was providing to "The Commies" (Kim Il Sung, Kim Jung Il's dad), they were like "aw fuck, I guess we have to do something about this". So they sent in tanks and whatnot, and fought back to the line that exists now.

Since there was never an official end to the war, both sides have built up armaments assuming fighting will begin again. However because Korea is a fucking TINY country, each side has armaments all over their respective countries that could completely level the other side. Truthfully, North Korea doesn't need nuclear bombs. They have artillery which could destroy much of the capital city, and can reach about 80% of the rest of the country.

They are aware, however, that as soon as they launched an attack, there would be instant reprisals from the extremely strong and well armed South Korean military, as well as the American military forces currently stationed in and around the Korean peninsula. And since the US has been doing the whole "shit we gotta worry about China" pivot, there's been a lot more forces stationed in the Pacific.

All of that having been said, one of the main reasons neither side has truly tried to take control of the other is that each side believes that the other part belongs to them. The Southerners I used to teach would often talk about the double-edged sword they faced; on one hand they wanted Korea to be reunited again, but on the other they were worried about a much larger scale version of the East/West Germany issue--it is gonna take HUGE amounts of money, time, and effort to reunite the two.

Also causing problems in the other direction is that if the South attacks, North Korea has a defence pact with China: if the North gets attacked and needs assistance, China will come in with aid. Now, nobody really knows what that means and whether or not China would really come in, but...it's a big concern. Some of my students suggest that even if the North Korean government collapses on its own, that China would happily move in and annex North Korea in order to present a further buffer between China proper and the American forces.


As far as China and Taiwan, that issue is just as complicated and I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about it. Much of it again, however, comes down to the fact that the US has forces stationed in and around Taiwan and each side is extremely worried about the reprisals from the other should something happen.

In pretty much all of these cases in Asia it's leftovers from WW2 and/or the Cold War with mutual defence pacts which have resulted in giant large-scale Mexican standoffs. Nobody wants to lose what they have, and nobody wants to lose more than the other guy if a war starts.

[drunkrussian]

so essentially with korea/china, both sides know that if they act with nukes, the U.S and other powers would step in and level them.

With Israel/Gaza similarly, supporting gaza means supporting terrorism, which means the U.S coming after you. Nobody wants that. Exactly what happened in the gulf war when sadam supported gaza/threatened israel and the u.s stepped in.

So essentialy, nobody steps in for gaza...and therefore gaza's terrorist leadership attacks israel. Israel retaliates, and there we have the shit show that we have

[Graeme S]

Originally Posted by drunkrussian

so essentially with korea/china, both sides know that if they act with nukes, the U.S and other powers would step in and level them.

With Israel/Gaza similarly, supporting gaza means supporting terrorism, which means the U.S coming after you. Nobody wants that. Exactly what happened in the gulf war when sadam supported gaza/threatened israel and the u.s stepped in.

So essentialy, nobody steps in for gaza...and therefore gaza's terrorist leadership attacks israel. Israel retaliates, and there we have the shit show that we have

First off, quick sidenote: South Korea has no nuclear weapons. North Korea has begun development of them, but so far their tests have been (on a relative scale) unsuccessful. And they don't have a missile system with which to deliver a nuclear payload. So the nuclear option in Korea isn't really viable. As far as China and Taiwan goes, China still claims Taiwan as its own (in their books, they categorize it as an SAR, similar to HK) so if they were to deploy nuclear weapons they'd be doing it "on their own soil" which would be extremely counterproductive.

Moving back to the main point of this thread, it all depends on how you frame it; violent governments are still governments. Given the level of sophistication that has been managed in these attacks and the fact that while living conditions in the region are poor but still livable, I would dispute your assertion that Hamas is unorganized. Assuming we remove that assertion, then the "group of terrorists running things" could be applied to North Korea as well. And Syria. And Burma/Myanmar. And possibly many others.

A violent government is not the same as a group of terrorists. Why? To steal and butcher an old phrase "Treason never prospers. Why? If it prospers, it is not treason."

Terrorists are only terrorists when they oppose a larger or more widely spoken group. I'm fairly certain that in areas of Pakistan, Afghanistan, and many other nations America is called "the biggest terrorists in the history of the world". With the number of drone strikes and bombs dropped by the US, one could argue that they are doing much more killing and murder than Hamas.


Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not trying to imply that the US and Hamas are by any means equals on any level. What I am trying to say is that debates like this are often difficult because of the loaded nature of the words and the framing used in them. If you're not comfortable calling Hamas the government of the Gaza Strip, then why not use the expression "De Facto government"?

Slinging mud in either direction simply gets both sides more dirty. If we want to stop more people from dying, we need to back away from the rhetoric and move towards active discourse--real discussions, not just labels.

[ProBoostin]

I found this article very interesting. My History teacher gave the class this website to check out and I found some other articles through some of the sources used. Which is this one: Top Ten Steps that are Necessary for Lasting Gaza-Israel Peace (or, Good Luck!) | Informed Comment.

I haven't been able to look through much of the articles on these sites yet, but from what my prof said this isn't western media stuff.

[Manic!]

If a rocket is controlled by GPS it's not a rocket it's a missile. Rockets cannot change trajectory mid air only missiles can. The US military/government invented the GPS system and controls the satellites. If GPS missiles became a real threat they could simply just turn off the satellites in a certain region or change the signal to misguide the missiles.


Sooner the world realizes Israel and Palestine are just like 6 year old kids fighting the better.

[wasabisashimi]

Originally Posted by Graeme S

First off, quick sidenote: South Korea has no nuclear weapons. North Korea has begun development of them, but so far their tests have been (on a relative scale) unsuccessful. And they don't have a missile system with which to deliver a nuclear payload. So the nuclear option in Korea isn't really viable. As far as China and Taiwan goes, China still claims Taiwan as its own (in their books, they categorize it as an SAR, similar to HK) so if they were to deploy nuclear weapons they'd be doing it "on their own soil" which would be extremely counterproductive.

Moving back to the main point of this thread, it all depends on how you frame it; violent governments are still governments. Given the level of sophistication that has been managed in these attacks and the fact that while living conditions in the region are poor but still livable, I would dispute your assertion that Hamas is unorganized. Assuming we remove that assertion, then the "group of terrorists running things" could be applied to North Korea as well. And Syria. And Burma/Myanmar. And possibly many others.

A violent government is not the same as a group of terrorists. Why? To steal and butcher an old phrase "Treason never prospers. Why? If it prospers, it is not treason."

Terrorists are only terrorists when they oppose a larger or more widely spoken group. I'm fairly certain that in areas of Pakistan, Afghanistan, and many other nations America is called "the biggest terrorists in the history of the world". With the number of drone strikes and bombs dropped by the US, one could argue that they are doing much more killing and murder than Hamas.


Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not trying to imply that the US and Hamas are by any means equals on any level. What I am trying to say is that debates like this are often difficult because of the loaded nature of the words and the framing used in them. If you're not comfortable calling Hamas the government of the Gaza Strip, then why not use the expression "De Facto government"?

Slinging mud in either direction simply gets both sides more dirty. If we want to stop more people from dying, we need to back away from the rhetoric and move towards active discourse--real discussions, not just labels.

It just seems foolish that Israel and Hamas drops bombs on each other while NK, SK, China and Taiwan are all living normal without death and destruction to their cities despite the ambition of claiming the others land.

Like someone said above " bunch of 6 year olds fighting at the cost of living souls"

[Graeme S]

Originally Posted by wasabisashimi

It just seems foolish that Israel and Hamas drops bombs on each other while NK, SK, China and Taiwan are all living normal without death and destruction to their cities despite the ambition of claiming the others land.

Like someone said above " bunch of 6 year olds fighting at the cost of living souls"

While all of these are disputes over land, territory, and systems of governing, none of these are direct parallels to any of the others. Even comparing China/Taiwan to North/South Korea is full of foibles, and both of those situations are both literally and figuratively thousands of kilometres away from the Israel/Palestine situation.

The biggest difference? Each of the Asian countries you listed believes that the other side is, essentially, a misguided offshoot of their own peoples. "They are us, but misguided and so we just need to make them understand".

Muslims and Jews (or Palestinians and Israelis, depending on how you frame the debate) have been in dispute for (if you'll pardon the pun) ages. Neither side believes that the other is anywhere near right, and in fact each side's religion essentially states that "All who don't believe what we believe are wrong and cannot live in the lands that were granted to you by God."

It's extremely difficult to look at the totality of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, because there are cultural and religious conflicts which go back more than a thousand years. It's hard to say where it started and when, because everyone's ideas of "the start" are different. These things make Israel/Palestine a completely different ball game from TW/CN and DPRK/ROK.

[rsx]

Originally Posted by wasabisashimi

It just seems foolish that Israel and Hamas drops bombs on each other while NK, SK, China and Taiwan are all living normal without death and destruction to their cities despite the ambition of claiming the others land.

Like someone said above " bunch of 6 year olds fighting at the cost of living souls"

My opinion.

The middle east is in a shit hole because of influences from the East and West. What's going on right now is a proxy war. The US and her allies have a long list of overthrowing leaders that aren't friendly to their interests. In my opinion, this doesn't allow proper political evolution for a country that's constantly being influenced/arm twisted by other governments and it only cultivates insurrection.

[belka]

Originally Posted by rsx

My opinion.

The middle east is in a shit hole because of influences from the East and West. What's going on right now is a proxy war. The US and her allies have a long list of overthrowing leaders that aren't friendly to their interests. In my opinion, this doesn't allow proper political evolution for a country that's constantly being influenced/arm twisted by other governments and it only cultivates insurrection.

We should leave Arab countries to their own demise. We had no right to interfere in Libya, if those idiots want to kill each other then why should we stop them. I'm glad we left Syria and Egypt alone to sort themselves out.

[Graeme S]

Originally Posted by belka

We should leave Arab countries to their own demise. We had no right to interfere in Libya, if those idiots want to kill each other then why should we stop them. I'm glad we left Syria and Egypt alone to sort themselves out.

Egypt was, on a relative scale, orderly. Libya was essentially clear-cut on who the rebels and the government were, and was very spread out. A very clean war.

Syria has been left alone for the time being, but with the formation of a new opposition that is slowly gaining more and more backing from western countries, Syria may not be "left alone" for that much longer.

[wasabisashimi]

Religion didn't teach about peace according to these people/terrorists i guess. Sounds like a scam to me.

[Graeme S]

Originally Posted by wasabisashimi

Religion didn't teach about peace according to these people/terrorists i guess. Sounds like a scam to me.

It all comes down to what parts you want to listen to. it's often much easier to hate or blame others than it is to listen to their feelings and/or concerns and help. Hating isn't isolated to these groups. Westboro Church anyone?