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You're worse than Harper, do you even realise the complications of having a communist state run company having control of one of our most important natural resources?
You do understand that 40% of America's oil comes from Canada, right? Having a huge chunk of that being controlled (literally) by China is not okay.
You'll be eating your words if the Chinese decide that they want to up the price of oil.
This is just mad capitalism, any sign of responsible government has gone down the drain. The Canadian political landscape is so corrupted and fucked up beyond belief it's appalling. And part of it can be attributed to our lousy SMP electoral system that put Harper into Office in the first place. We collapse under any sort of pressure other nations give us, Canadian politicians really need to grow a spine and think about the people for once, not just the 150 CEOs of Canada.
Here's the thing, if this was Statoil - a Norwegian state-owned company, we wouldnt give a shiet about state owned companies taking over Nexen.
But because it's China, it becomes a political issue. Yes I don't want foreign chinese workers coming in here or china doing whatever they want with our oil.
I'm not a Fan of Harper by any means. But I was pretty satisfied by the way he played this thing. He approved Both takeovers, and said that this is "The end of a TREND"!
and that future state owned deals WONT be approved unless its for exceptional circumstances. Harper played this one perfectly, he needed the extra capital that the Chinese will bring in to Alberta (as well as BC with petronas building in kitimat), so he gave the Chinese a bone here, and said this is the last one.
Let's face it, the CNOOC payed a huge premium for Nexen, look at the stock price before and after, Nexen's earnings isnt as great as it use to be and the stock price would have probably went down below pre-takeover prices.
As long as he keeps his word, and these are the two last deals, I think it's the right move.
Here's the thing, if this was Statoil - a Norwegian state-owned company, we wouldnt give a shiet about state owned companies taking over Nexen.
But because it's China, it becomes a political issue. Yes I don't want foreign chinese workers coming in here or china doing whatever they want with our oil.
I'm not a Fan of Harper by any means. But I was pretty satisfied by the way he played this thing. He approved Both takeovers, and said that this is "The end of a TREND"!
and that future state owned deals WONT be approved unless its for exceptional circumstances. Harper played this one perfectly, he needed the extra capital that the Chinese will bring in to Alberta (as well as BC with petronas building in kitimat), so he gave the Chinese a bone here, and said this is the last one.
Let's face it, the CNOOC payed a huge premium for Nexen, look at the stock price before and after, Nexen's earnings isnt as great as it use to be and the stock price would have probably went down below pre-takeover prices.
As long as he keeps his word, and these are the two last deals, I think it's the right move.
Ha...haha...hahaha
Firstly, Norway is not a corrupted communist nation who constantly abuses its power to further its own interests
And secondly, Harper keeping his word?!
If I could find that video on YouTube where Harper explicitly states that Canada's national resources are not for sale to any other foreign nation from a couple years back, I would.
^ one thing that scares me is that even the USA rejected a bid by CNOOC in 2005, and Canada approved them. US has to still approve of the Gulf oil assets, which many of the politicians there dont want.
Harper also said today he's tightening take-over rules for all industries from now on, not just oil. Let's hope he keeps his word. He better because I know the Chinese want our Potash and fertilizer resources as well. I'd be pissed if he approves takeover of our fertilizer companies.
I'm surprised there are still people who take Harper's words seriously
Via Vancouver Observer
Quote:
China National Offshore Oil Corporation (CNOOC)'s business with Iran came under fire on The Rachel Maddow Show in late September. Maddow highlighted CNOOC's $16 billion natural gas development deal with Iran in 2006.
Quote:
Given the scale of potential Chinese investment in Canada's natural resources, a major question that should be on many Canadians' minds is what percentage of ownership by the Chinese state is acceptable to Canadians in natural resources? Canadians are not happy about profits of their natural resources going out the state
Quote:
China National Offshore Oil Corporation (CNOOC)'s business with Iran came under fire on The Rachel Maddow Show in late September. Maddow highlighted CNOOC's $16 billion natural gas development deal with Iran in 2006.
Firstly, Norway is not a corrupted communist nation who constantly abuses its power to further its own interests
that's exactly what Im trying to say, we wouldnt care if this was norway, but many (myself included) care because its fcking China. china is going to abuse their power and wont be playing by the same rules as western countries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by akinari-kun
And secondly, Harper keeping his word?!
yea, this I agree with you on, im kinda afraid of this, it's a slippery slope here, first oil, fertilizers next. . .. . .
Does anyone remember the Sinopec file? And Sinopec isn't even as bad as CNOOC...
Spoiler!
Sinopec, Enbridge's Chinese business partner for the Northern Gateway Project, has a long record of corruption, human rights violations, environmental pollution and doing business with terrorist-linked governments.
A Tyee investigation found that the world's seventh largest corporation has been the subject of major bribery scandals at home and has systemically invested in rogue petro states from Angola to Myanmar.
The state-owned company has tried to improve its image in recent years with a series of multi-billion dollar investments in North America and the oil sands.
Yet Sinopec's earlier deals in Syria and Iran now are the subject of intense global controversy as the United States and European Union intensify sanctions against both countries.
"Today, energy is already the main driver of China's international behavior. Its energy needs have brought Beijing to turn a blind eye to human rights violations in Sudan, Myanmar and Uzbekistan," testified oil analyst Gal Luft before the U.S. House Committee on Foreign Affairs last year. "China's energy deals with Iran have already brought Beijing to block U.S. attempts to the UN Security Council to impose crippling sanctions against Tehran for continuing to develop nuclear weapons."
Sinopec also stands accused of violating Canadian law. In 2007 the collapse of several storage tanks at Canadian Natural Resources Horizon oil sands mine site killed two temporary Chinese workers and injured several others. A subsidiary of Sinopec flew the workers in for the job yet may have defrauded many of their wages, according to the Alberta government.
Two years later, the Alberta government served Sinopec and CNRL with an unprecedented 53 charges for failing to ensure worker health and safety. (Each charge comes with a maximum fine of $500,000.) Ever since then, Sinopec has stubbornly fought the charges, saying that its subsidiary has no presence in Canada and that the charges weren't served properly.
Sinopec's legal team now wants the Supreme Court of Canada to overturn a ruling that would force it to stand trial for ignoring Alberta's health and safety regulations.
"I've been watching Sinopec ever since the tank farm collapse and nothing has lessened my concern about this company. It's not my idea of a good corporate citizen," says Gil McGowan, president of the Alberta Federation of Labour.
He says that Canadians should be asking if Sinopec's investments in the country are "in Canada's interest or in China's best interest?"
Biggest refinery complex in Asia
Transparency International and Revenue Watch gives Sinopec one of the lowest rankings for fighting graft and corruption (32 per cent) in their most recent report on oil companies. Sinopec ranks ninth out of 44 leading oil and gas companies.
Formed in 1998 by the Communist Party of China, Sinopec (China Petrochemical Corporation) now operates the greatest refinery complex in Asia with annual operating revenues of nearly US$290 billion and some 600,000 employees.
Yet the firm, whose 30,000 filling stations make it a familiar brand among Chinese citizens, reports meagre profits due to state subsidization of gasoline and diesel fuel prices.
Sinopec is one of three Chinese national oil companies that went public in 2000. The China National Petroleum Corp (CNPC) is now the world's fifth largest oil company while Sinopec is the largest state-owned firm in terms of revenue. The China National Offshore Oil Corporation (CNOOC) remains the smaller of the three monopolies.
Directors of all three companies are appointed by Chinese Communist Party (CCP) through its Organization Department, an agency created by Chairman Mao in 1924. The CCP still holds 80 per cent of the company's shares. Every executive of China's three oil monopolies are, as the Economist magazine puts it, "cadres first and company men second."
Aided by state banks that provided soft loans and supported by China's "Going Abroad" policy, Sinopec and CNCP went on a global prowl for energy to feed China's growing economy. China, the world's second largest energy consumer, now imports half its oil.
In recent years Sinopec has amassed more overseas assets (oil fields and refineries) than any other Chinese company and recently conducted more mergers and acquisitions (74 deals worth nearly $50 billion since 2004) than Exxon Mobile.
'Human rights? We care about oil'
After Canada weakened its foreign investment rules in 2010, Sinopec bought a nine per cent stake in Syncrude (Canada's largest bitumen producer) for $4.5 billion. The controversial deal gave the refining giant the right to veto any Syncrude decision on where to upgrade and refine bitumen.
Sinopec, which also partnered with Total on another oil sands project, is also a key financial backer of the Northern Gateway pipeline.
The $6-billion proposal would pump raw bitumen from Alberta to the port of Kitimat and expose the pristine waters of British Columbia's Pacific coast to massive supertanker traffic and potential oil spills.
The Canadian government backs the project, but First Nations, environment groups, labour unions and other civic groups oppose it for a variety of economic, political and environmental reasons.
But Sinopec began its dramatic climb in the global oil business by systematically acquiring assets in troubled petro states throughout Africa and the Middle East, including Myanmar, Sudan and Iran.
"No matter if it's rogue's oil or a friend's oil, we don't care," explained one Chinese energy advisor to the Washington Post in 2005. "Human rights? We don't care. We care about oil. Whether Iran would have nuclear weapons or not is not our business. America cares, but Iran is not our neighbor. Anyone who helps China with energy is a friend."
Michael Klare, a U.S. oil expert at Hampshire College, says Sinopec choose "the pariah states because that's where there was an opening. The good stuff was already locked up by western companies."
Multi-billion dollar investments in Myanmar's oil and gas fields in 2004 financially strengthened that nation's brutal military junta. Church groups and non-governmental organizations have strongly criticized CNCP and Sinopec for cooperating closely with the Burmese military rulers.
Darfur and other investments
The Sudan has been another hotspot. Sinopec's investments combined China's weapons sales to Sudan's genocidal government even prompted Harvard University to divest its stock in the company in 2006 due to "deep concerns about the grievous crisis that persists in the Darfur region of Sudan and about the role of Sinopec Corporation."
Investments in extreme political environments for oil has been part of a coordinated overseas investment strategy that often includes political support for petro states at the United Nations, says a 2007 report published in the Australian journal Security Challenges.
"China is securing deals with the kinds of sweeteners that only its state-controlled entities can provide: billions of dollars in economic and military aid; access to China's growing markets; and diplomatic support at the United Nations where China can wield its veto power in the Security Council."
In 2004, Sinopec bought $2-billion worth of oil assets in worn-torn Angola and then invested billions more in the country (China now gets third of its oil from Africa). Although western oil companies (Chevron and Exxon Mobile) and governments have benefited from rampant corruption in the petro state, Sinopec has not raised the bar.
Human Rights Watch reported in 2010: "The rise of China as Angola's main trading partner has helped the Angolan government resist reforms, not least because China and Chinese companies do not call for good governance."
In another Africa controversy, Sinopec seismic crews dynamited wildlife habitat, hunted bush meat and contaminated rivers with oil waste in Gabon's famous Loango National Park.
The incident even prompted a reprimand from the European Union. After the government of Gabon stopped the exploration program, the company explained that they were just acting like other oil companies and weren't aware of Loango's sensitive ecological status.
"China is wrecking international efforts to bring economic and political sanity to impoverished and conflict-ridden communities in Africa by bankrolling corrupt and repressive regimes," declared a 2007 report by AfricaPractice.
Libya, Iran and Syria
Sinopec's investments in the Libya, Iran and Syria have also drawn widespread criticism.
After Sinopec purchased $2-billion worth of heavy oil assets from a Canadian firm (Tanganyika Oil) in 2008, China has steadfastly defended the regime of President Bashar al-Assad. Last week its Security Council members blocked a UN resolution that called for Syrian President Bashar al-Assad to step aside.
Back in China, a country without a free press, a variety of corruption scandals and chronic environmental violations have quietly dogged the company.
In one celebrated case, a bribery scandal involving the company's former chairman Chen Tonghai put a spotlight on the extreme level of corruption in China's powerful state-owned companies.
In 2010, Beijing No. 2 Intermediate People's Court convicted Chen, former chairman of Asia's largest oil refiner, for taking $29-million yuan in bribes (US$4 million) between 1999 and 2007. Chen allegedly helped individuals "seeking illegal interests." The verdict did not name the bribers.
According to the China Times, the Sinopec chairman confessed to his crimes and received a suspended death sentence. Sinopec did not comment on the case at the time but later urged Beijing to crack down on "corrupt" foreign business practices.
Here's the thing, if this was Statoil - a Norwegian state-owned company, we wouldnt give a shiet about state owned companies taking over Nexen.
But because it's China, it becomes a political issue. Yes I don't want foreign chinese workers coming in here or china doing whatever they want with our oil.
I'm not a Fan of Harper by any means. But I was pretty satisfied by the way he played this thing. He approved Both takeovers, and said that this is "The end of a TREND"!
and that future state owned deals WONT be approved unless its for exceptional circumstances. Harper played this one perfectly, he needed the extra capital that the Chinese will bring in to Alberta (as well as BC with petronas building in kitimat), so he gave the Chinese a bone here, and said this is the last one.
Let's face it, the CNOOC payed a huge premium for Nexen, look at the stock price before and after, Nexen's earnings isnt as great as it use to be and the stock price would have probably went down below pre-takeover prices.
As long as he keeps his word, and these are the two last deals, I think it's the right move.
Incorrect, any foreign takeover of a major Canadian resource firm is cause for arguement and rejection. This is not about racism, this is about the security of the country, and letting another country take the reigns of a chunk of oil production is not okay.
We collapse under any sort of pressure other nations give us, Canadian politicians really need to grow a spine and think about the people for once, not just the 150 CEOs of Canada.
Don't even get me started on the F-35 deal.
He did think about the people, which is why he changed the rules and said this is the end of the line, where that be true is another thing.
He also has to please the business world and approve the takeover.
I voted NPD the last election, and even I can see why harper did what he did and its pretty obvious. Your sending the wrong signal to the markets by rejecting these deals.
It's easy for you to sit behind your computer and fail everyone who disagrees with your views, but maybe if your not just a student and understand the management side of business you will understand the importance of capital investment.
He did think about the people, which is why he changed the rules and said this is the end of the line, where that be true is another thing.
He also has to please the business world and approve the takeover.
I voted NPD the last election, and even I can see why harper did what he did and its pretty obvious. Your sending the wrong signal to the markets by rejecting these deals.
It's easy for you to sit behind your computer and fail everyone who disagrees with your views, but maybe if your not just a student and understand the management side of business you will understand the importance of capital investment.
You are not considering the part about this investment being largely influenced by a foreign government's interests, this is not a company as we know it to be, this is a branch of their government wanting control over our resources.
I do not disagree that investment in Canada is a good thing, but money is not the pressing issue here.
Incorrect, any foreign takeover of a major Canadian resource firm is cause for arguement and rejection. This is not about racism, this is about the security of the country, and letting another country take the reigns of a chunk of oil production is not okay.
I disagree, most people I talked to in the capital markets basically telling me that the Petronas deal probably would have been approved if the Nexen deal by China didnt come in. They couldnt just approve Progress (petronas) and reject Nexen.
Petronas is malaysian and they have a better "reputation" than china. Plus singapore is pretty open and free in a business sense.
It's political, if Statoil bid for Progress or Nexen, it wouldnt have been an issue.
Statoil actually owns quite a bit in Alberta already.
I disagree, most people I talked to in the capital markets basically telling me that the Petronas deal probably would have been approved if the Nexen deal by China didnt come in. They couldnt just approve Progress (petronas) and reject Nexen.
Petronas is malaysian and they have a better "reputation" than china. Plus singapore is pretty open and free in a business sense.
It's political, if Statoil bid for Progress or Nexen, it wouldnt have been an issue.
Statoil actually owns quite a bit in Alberta already.
My issue is not with private enterprise, as I have already stated, this issue lies with a foreign government calling the shots. Statoil's 67% government ownership is cause for arguement.
You are not considering the part about this investment being largely influenced by a foreign government's interests, this is not a company as we know it to be, this is a branch of their government wanting control over our resources.
I do not disagree that investment in Canada is a good thing, but money is not the pressing issue here.
Yes but Petronas and CNOOC have made many concessions and altered their bids in order to get approved. ie. having board members being Canadian, headquarters in Calgary etc etc.
Listen, I'm 100% in agreement with you here that I dont want China state owned companies operating in Alberta.
But that's not the deck of hands we are playing with here. Given that we have Harper and a conservative majority (keep in mind I dont like harper and dont vote conserative), this was the best, most realistic possible outcome that came out of this decision.
He got concessions by the companies before the approval, and approved the deal, pleasing his political base, and is changing the rules so that these type of deals wont happen in the future.
Yes but Petronas and CNOOC have made many concessions and altered their bids in order to get approved. ie. having board members being Canadian, headquarters in Calgary etc etc.
Listen, I'm 100% in agreement with you here that I dont want China state owned companies operating in Alberta.
But that's not the deck of hands we are playing with here. Given that we have Harper and a conservative majority (keep in mind I dont like harper and dont vote conserative), this was the best, most realistic possible outcome that came out of this decision.
He got concessions by the companies before the approval, and approved the deal, pleasing his political base, and is changing the rules so that these type of deals wont happen in the future.
While those changes to the terms of their bids are more realistic, it does not change the fact that the company it's self is a foreign government entity.
I find it slightly more comforting that Harper has changed the rules for future engagements, but this deal has decreased my faith in Harper's government.
Last edited by Yodamaster; 12-07-2012 at 10:20 PM.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azndude69
Harper also said today he's tightening take-over rules for all industries from now on, not just oil. Let's hope he keeps his word. He better because I know the Chinese want our Potash and fertilizer resources as well. I'd be pissed if he approves takeover of our fertilizer companies.
something along the lines of closing the barn door after the horse has bolted comes to mind
Remember that China needs and relies on our exports to fuel their growth. If they piss us off we can turn off the taps. We are the ones in control.
This is untrue. With society so reliant on Chinese exports nowadays, can you REALLY turn off the taps? Look in your house, make a list of things not made in china, not very many. Even if you do find an alternative source, are you able to suck in the increase in price for the same merchandise? That's the problem with relying on imported goods, exactly like you said, tit for tat.
Nexen is a nobody. They've been a buyout candidate for years now and they're not very well respected in the industry. EDIT: The truth is no Western Company would be willing to pay such a ridiculous premium for Nexen.
Only 11% of their revenue comes from Canada and they are in essence a non player in this country.
I get why people buy into the whole China bogeyman mentality, if I was uneducated and unable to think and observe critically I would probably believe everything US television told me too!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodamaster
You do understand that 40% of America's oil comes from Canada, right? Having a huge chunk of that being controlled (literally) by China is not okay.
Yes and currently we send about 95% of all energy exports to the US. While you obviously enjoy riding American dick, for the Canadian economy perhaps its not prudent to hedge our entire energy industry to the American state of affairs and economy. Regardless of what you believe about the industry, we've always given the American's right of refusal before seeking any deals elsewhere.
The amount of misinformation in this thread is saddening. I work in the industry and have covered Nexen a few times, and their Canadian production accounts for roughly ~10% of their total production (majority of the total production is from North Sea). The Canadian portion of the production comes from their Long Lake SAGD project with production of only 18.2 mbbls/d as of 9/30/2012 as it has been struggling for many years with SOR being one of the highest among its peers.
I honestly have no idea why people are making such a huge fuss out of this, as if a major player like Suncor, CNRL, Cenovus, etc., was acquired or something. PotashCorp was blocked because it was the dominant player in the world with the largest potash production.
Well I think honestly he is trying to befriend with China to get more bunsiess under way, but I think this is just wrong any natural resource should be control by Canadian investors or Canadian own compnay with over 70% investor by Canadians.
We are literally selling Canada lol. What's next? Buy our Bydro company, power company and ship them to China leaving us with nothing or charge us doulbe or triple of what we pay now?
At the end of the day if they dont play by our rules they wont have permits which will mean they wont be able to do anything.
Cant even put up a smoke pit without getting a permit.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penner2k
At the end of the day if they dont play by our rules they wont have permits which will mean they wont be able to do anything.
Cant even put up a smoke pit without getting a permit.
and you think Harper won't give them the permit? LOL doesn't matter what he said. At the end of the day he can change his words or just say things have change now so we need to change as well.......
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