Idle No More

[Soundy]

Originally Posted by MindBomber

'Idle No More' is about establishing equality

Originally Posted by Jason00S2000

No more indian act, no more chiefs, no more special treatment for anyone.

We will then, and only then, be equal.

Which makes it all the more ironic - and sad, to those with a legitimate stake in the movement - that some also-rans would be (allegedly) using the movement to further their own agendas to grab power...

[dinosaur]

Originally Posted by Jason00S2000

Are indian chiefs elected by individual bands? How long is the term for?


There are many, many Chiefs that make more annual income than Harper, yet they manage much, much smaller populations.

Why?

The whole Chiefs system is corrupt from top to bottom. They are poverty pimps that have to keep other indians down to stay relevant.

Yes, they are elected by the members of the band. Usually the term in 2 years.

Like any group of politicians, some are corrupt. SOME. You can not paint the whole system as being bad. There are a lot of FANTASTIC Chiefs that do great things for their Nations, develop economic strategies, promote education, encourage personal health and development, and strength their bands.

[MindBomber]

Originally Posted by Soundy

It's a lesson Quebec has learned well: threaten to leave Canada, get tons of money thrown at you. Classic "Squeaky Wheel" theory in both cases.

Except, First Nations and Aboriginal people are not having, "tons of money thrown at [them];" a primary concern is simply to receive equal funding to non-indigenous Canadians.

Originally Posted by Jason00S2000

No more indian act, no more chiefs, no more special treatment for anyone.

We will then, and only then, be equal.

...until then? Pay, pay, pay...

The Indian Act could not be considered suitable to govern any community of people worldwide.

A primary objective of 'Idle No More' is its removal and replacement with a fundamentally restructured agreement.

Band Councils and Chiefs could not be considered an issue, and will not be eliminated; any attempt to do so would violate Supreme Court rulings, negating the legitimacy of the Government.

Band Councils and Chiefs lead and represent distinct communities with specific interests, the majority of whom earn very low salaries or volunteer, a minority of whom lead large businesses or large populations and receive market-rate salaries in return, and an even smaller minority of whom receive unjustly high salaries (and I point you to IA for an explanation). There are small communities throughout the Province and Country led by a Mayor and City Council, a very similar structure to those seen in Aboriginal communities.

Aboriginal people are not interested in the special treatment they receive, communities have volunteered to rescind them; a minor and selective tax break is moot if your child cannot receive a reasonable quality education.

[Jason00S2000]

Originally Posted by MindBomber

Except, First Nations and Aboriginal people are not having, "tons of money thrown at [them];" a primary concern is simply to receive equal funding to non-indigenous Canadians.

How much money was spent last year by the department of Indian affairs?

Why is there no department of Asian affairs? Or Caucasian affairs?

Why is there even a department of Indian affairs at all? Why are we not equals?

[Graeme S]

Originally Posted by Jason00S2000

How much money was spent last year by the department of Indian affairs?

Why is there no department of Asian affairs? Or Caucasian affairs?

Why is there even a department of Indian affairs at all? Why are we not equals?

Because of a treaty that was signed more than a hundred years ago which made all FN issues the sole responsibility of the Federal Government.
And at the time their mentality was "okay, great, we'll make them assimilate by sending them to residential schools and teach them to be good Canadians", then the administrators refused to allow families to stay together, beat kids for using their own names or languages, did some extremely quiestionable shit which helped to destroy their culture, and then let them go.

Oh, and the government gave them some land to live on ('cause, y'know, fair's fair, right?) but that land happens to be a teeeeeeeeeeeeensy tiny fraction of what they used to live and survive and forage on from before Canada was colonized. Oh, and then there's some places like Haida Gwaii where there were villages of a couple hundred people that were decently successful on their own, but then Europeans came and brought diseases that wiped out LITERALLY 90% of the population there, resulting in a village and culture which could no longer exist on its own.

So then people say "well, get an education to get a job!". But then the Federal government doesn't provide as much per native student as non-native students do because they get a combination of federal and provincial funding. Which means they can't afford the same quality of schools or teachers. And because of the abuses and issues from residential schools, many children have suffered from various forms of abuse, neglect or disabilities (including numerous cases of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome). Also, many FN people are distrustful of the schooling system in general. Why? Because of residential schools.

"But it's okay, we've learned!"
"...so what are you gonna do that's better?"
"We're not gonna destroy your culture this time!"
"prove it"
"you have our word"
...



And this is just the tip of the ranty iceberg. One of the things that annoys me about the ranty things that you've been posting recently (annoys, not causes excessive problems for me) is the fact that you've ignored the several posts that MB's made about the fact that the Indian Act is completely and totally fucked and is causing a fuckton of problems on reservations because of the wording and the ancient legalese and the fact that successive governments have been afraid to go in and make changes for fear of being labelled racist or what have you.

The system is broken. Bitching about how badly it's broken will not change the fact that it's broken as fuck. At least this way they are lobbying for change so that there's some pressure from somewhere inside the native community so that the government can finally fucking start fixing this shit up.



[/rant]

[Jason00S2000]

Originally Posted by Graeme S

The system is broken.
[/rant]

The school's closed, the prison's open!

Dude, as long as we have a separate system for NATIVES over EVERY OTHER CANADIAN this shit will never, ever end. Hands will be out looking for money until the end of fucking time.


In case nobody notices, culture advances rapidly in our modern times. I've changed so much in the last 10 years. My life is a constant ebb and flow of change.

If natives want to hold onto a prehistoric culture of beating drums, being angry about the past, and blocking roads to get more government money, they're going to be fucked forever. This is fucking 2013, get with the times. Beating a drum, learning how to speak your native language, making beadwork, and wearing feather headresses ain't going to get you JACK or SHIT in today's world.

Imagine if I woke up one day and decided to go full-on German. Like, Charlemagne-German. I wore a suit of armor, got really good at swinging a broadsword. Then I would block roads and be like "OH FUCK I CAN'T GET MONEY OR WORK BECAUSE OF DISCRIMINATION AGAINST MY FUCKING ARMOR AND SWORD FUUUUUCKKKK!"

...

Idle No More is a fucking racist movement designed to make white people feel guilty while Natives continue to want to get paid for living in the past.

This is 2013. Modernize or be left in the dust. Their choice.

[Eastwood]

I have a question for the First Nations on this board.

In regards to the future of your movement, would it be better for the people to outright become owners of individual properties from reserves that could be bought and sold to outsiders? For instance the Harper government would give you titles to your house and land and I could purchase it.

Also do you think there should come a time when First Nations should pay tax equivalent to the rest of society? I understand at the moment why they don't, as they are far behind in areas of poverty, education, and employment and need every opportunity to get ahead. But eventually the probability the money train will stop within our lifetime is highly likely.

[Soundy]

Originally Posted by MindBomber

Except, First Nations and Aboriginal people are not having, "tons of money thrown at [them];" a primary concern is simply to receive equal funding to non-indigenous Canadians.

I guess our definitions of "tons" differ. Attawapiskat has received, what, $90M from the Federal government since 2005? That's not including provincial input, or what they bring in themselves (which according to this article, all-in amounts to $34M+ in annual revenues).

For a single town of under 1400 people... I'd call that "tons". And that's just ONE town.

So from the article, the Federal government in the 2010-11 fiscal year, gave Attawapiskat around $17.6M. That's on the order of nearly $13,000 per person coming into the town... now if we're going to talk "equality", and assuming around one million status natives in Canada (I believe that's the last number I heard reported), that means the feds are shoveling $13,000,000,000 ($13 billion) at FNs every year. Obviously the actual figures vary from one group to the next, but by any reckoning, I think that rates as "tons of money".

[Jason00S2000]

Originally Posted by Graeme S

some pressure from somewhere inside the native community so that the government can finally fucking start fixing this shit up.

[/rant]

Individual responsibility?


Incredible idea, that MORE government is somehow going to fix this.


Absolutely laughable.


The only way this is going to get fixed is if there is no status indian. We need to all be Canadians and Canadians only.

[Graeme S]

I see no reason why there are absolutes that need to be created, nor why changes need to be instantaneous. But changes need to be made. If we say "take it or leave it", we all lose because everyone will just hate each other even more. Each side needs to listen to the other and figure out what the fuck to do about this.

I think there are very few people who are insisting on a purely return-to-the-land lifestyle. But that having been said, if I've got some land in the sticks and there's minerals under the ground, those rights are mine. But if it's a reserve where that's the case, the negotiations have to go through the Federal Government first (if I recall correctly from earlier discussions). If loans or development wants to be made or gotten, they have to go through the Federal Government. Everything goes through the fucking Federal Government. We need a systematic method of addressing the issues that the native peoples currently face and figure out a way to gradually bring them into mainstream society in an orderly way.

The 'take it or leave it' idea was tried with residential schools. And we can see how successful that's been. Any kind of absolute solution, even going back to prohibition has done nothing but cause more mistrust, disagreement and crime than existed before.

[CharlesInCharge]

Jason tell us how the latest Alberta energy deal to China for 15 billion dollars is going to benefit us more if Harper spent it then the first nations?

[Graeme S]

Just wanted to bring these statistics back to the front since they seem to have been missed.

Originally Posted by MindBomber

British Columbia and the Federal government spent $15,332 per capita in 2010.

Alberta and the Federal government spent $16,888 per capita in 2010.

Saskatchewan and the Federal government spent $16,335 per capita in 2010.

Manitoba and the Federal government spent $17,070 per capita in 2010.

Ontario and the Federal government spent $15,324 per capita in 2010.

Quebec and the Federal government spent $11,148 per capita 2010.

New Brunswick and the Federal government spent $16,680 per capita in 2010.

Prince Edward Island and the Federal government spent $16,943 per capita in 2010.

Nova Scotia and the Federal government spent $15,673 per capita in 2010.

Newfoundland and the Federal government spent $19,623 per capita in 2010.

The following is an outline of the Consolidated Government Revenue and Expenditures

Spoiler!

Health, Social Services, Education, Housing, and Regional Planning and Development costs equal an average conservative total of $12,077 per capita.

As required by the Indian Act - the Federal Government assumes expenses associated with First Nations education, housing, community infrastructure (water and sewage systems), social support services, and health benefits. Including the cost of ongoing treaty negotiations, the Federal government spent $6168 per capita total on First Nations and Aboriginal people in 2011.

That amounts to a spending difference of at least $5909 per capita, greater than a 49% disparity.

Not surprisingly - one of the most fundamental complaints arising from reserves such as Attawapiskat is the low quality of education, health care, and infrastructure.

Given these figures, I'm straining to understand the perpetuation of the myth that First Nations people are severely entitled, and receiving benefits greatly above that of 'ordinary' Canadians.

Everyone screams - FUCK DAMN ENTITLED DRUNK INDIANS, but the real problem is THE DAMN ENTITLED DRUNK NEWFIE FISHERMAN. (I'm being facetious, of course).

I both welcome and strongly encourage a person to dispute my points.



Nothing, and that's the essential point, and the source of so much frustration among First Nations people.

The Lubicon Cree currently have no treaty ceding land rights. A treaty has been sought for decades, no official agreement has currently been reached, but $14 billion in oil and gas has been extracted from the lands in question. I'm sure a treaty will be reached, and the timing will coincide with resource extraction being totally ceased.

The Algonquins of Barriere Lake have no treaty ceding land rights, but an are seeking an agreement. The land in question generates $100 million in annual revenue including logging and hydroelectric revenue. Imagine a significant portion of the land were transferred back to the Algonquins, and a typical self-governance treaty were assumed surrendering all tax exemptions and entitlements. The result - a preservation of culture, an ending of 'white guilt' money transfers, and a continued revenue stream via the jobs created by an environmentally sensitive logging. I see no downside, except for the Government, who lose a measure of control, do you?

The requests made are not unreasonable; they're beneficial to First Nations people and 'ordinary' Canadian Citizens, but perhaps not Government.

The only method of compelling Government to consider First Nations requests more seriously is to exert public pressure, and that's the objective of Idle No More.

[Eastwood]

Is my question going to go unanswered Graeme S?

[Jason00S2000]

Originally Posted by Graeme S

Just wanted to bring these statistics back to the front since they seem to have been missed.

Misleading, sensationalist crap.


Health, Social Services, Education, Housing, and Regional Planning and Development costs equal an average conservative total of $12,077 per capita.

As required by the Indian Act - the Federal Government assumes expenses associated with First Nations education, housing, community infrastructure (water and sewage systems), social support services, and health benefits. Including the cost of ongoing treaty negotiations, the Federal government spent $6168 per capita total on First Nations and Aboriginal people in 2011.

That amounts to a spending difference of at least $5909 per capita, greater than a 49% disparity.



So they're trying to tell me that they can break down all the expenditures of a province down on an absolute "Non-native spending" and "Native spending" basis?

As if. Natives obviously are a part of the base per-capita spending, and the $6168 is ON TOP of what is already spent on the "general population."


Any way we look at it, the Chiefs are going to continue getting fat paid while the poor natives are used as examples of why the Chiefs need MORE MONEY without proper audits.

Where's Chief Spence's expense reports? Why are 80% of them untraceable?

[MindBomber]

Originally Posted by Jason00S2000

How much money was spent last year by the department of Indian affairs?

Why is there no department of Asian affairs? Or Caucasian affairs?

Why is there even a department of Indian affairs at all? Why are we not equals?

The Indian Act states 'Indians' are wards of the Federal Government.

The Federal Government therefore must manage services otherwise managed by Provincial Governments like Education, Health Care, Social Services, and Infrastructure. Indian Affairs is the consolidated branch of the Federal Government managing the aforementioned services; treaty negotiations aside it is not a special branch.

The annual budget of Indian Affairs is approximately $7 billion. Conservatively, Indian Affairs spends only 51% per capita to remunerate the aforementioned services, proportionate to that spent per capita by other individual branches combined to provide the same services for non-Aboriginal people.

Originally Posted by Jason00S2000

So they're trying to tell me that they can break down all the expenditures of a province down on an absolute "Non-native spending" and "Native spending" basis?

As if. Natives obviously are a part of the base per-capita spending, and the $6168 is ON TOP of what is already spent on the "general population."

I wrote that, it is most assuredly not misleading or sensationalist.

If a service provided by the Provincial Government is designated the responsibility of the Federal Government, the cost is billed back to Indian Affairs.

[Jason00S2000]

Originally Posted by MindBomber

The Indian Act states 'Indians' are wards of the Federal Government.

Yeah for us to be equal, that has to end.

[MindBomber]

Originally Posted by Jason00S2000

Yeah for us to be equal, that has to end.

Yes, it is an extremely high priority of the 'Idle No More' movement for it to end.

Originally Posted by Soundy

I guess our definitions of "tons" differ. Attawapiskat has received, what, $90M from the Federal government since 2005? That's not including provincial input, or what they bring in themselves (which according to this article, all-in amounts to $34M+ in annual revenues).

For a single town of under 1400 people... I'd call that "tons". And that's just ONE town.

So from the article, the Federal government in the 2010-11 fiscal year, gave Attawapiskat around $17.6M. That's on the order of nearly $13,000 per person coming into the town... now if we're going to talk "equality", and assuming around one million status natives in Canada (I believe that's the last number I heard reported), that means the feds are shoveling $13,000,000,000 ($13 billion) at FNs every year. Obviously the actual figures vary from one group to the next, but by any reckoning, I think that rates as "tons of money".

Indian Affairs department budgets are public information, you'll see they are under $7 billion.

[Graeme S]

Originally Posted by Eastwood

I have a question for the First Nations on this board.

Originally Posted by Eastwood

Is my question going to go unanswered Graeme S?

I'm not first nations, actually. I'm fifth generation Scotch-English descended Canadian, so I didn't really feel a duty to answer what you aimed at the FN people of the board. Since you've asked, though...

In regards to the future of your movement, would it be better for the people to outright become owners of individual properties from reserves that could be bought and sold to outsiders? For instance the Harper government would give you titles to your house and land and I could purchase it.

Do I think that they should have title to their land? I don't see why not, but I think it would greatly depend on the nature of the band; in urban areas where most people have their own home/yard and there's not a lot of unused or empty common space it may be very simple to say "that's your house now". Of course, some of those houses may be old and have problems--so what if you are given title to a house which has problems you were unaware of and are now stuck with the repairs on?

One of my exes worked with a woman who lived on the reserve, and it turned out that she had a slow leak in her roof; it had taken a few years to really soak in but mould had taken hold. Let's say she had gotten title to the house. She would then be stuck with the costs of repairing a pre-existing condition that she was not aware of at all. And because she lacks the capital to repair it (she didn't purchase the house, after all), how does one determine who should be held liable? It's entirely possible she may end up having to sell because the cost of repairing it is more than she would be able to afford.

In the rural areas where the land is more open, how would you do that? I haven't even got the faintest idea how land is organized there, whether or not it's done in a similar way to the reserves here or not. So while I agree in principle, it's a question of whether or not the kinks could be properly ironed out.

Also do you think there should come a time when First Nations should pay tax equivalent to the rest of society? I understand at the moment why they don't, as they are far behind in areas of poverty, education, and employment and need every opportunity to get ahead. But eventually the probability the money train will stop within our lifetime is highly likely.

I do believe that when things reach parity and the native bands themselves are essentially at the point of self-sufficiency that they should face the same tax barriers that we do. Whether or not this will be seen within our lifetimes is a big question, though. What we see as sweeping changes that make a difference now are not always. Think about it like this: if we make a change to education and housing policy now, the effects won't be seen for another...let's say five years. One thing about governments is that everything moves fucking slowly. So five years from now new education programs, housing programs, and all that other jazz goes into effect.

So the kids five years from now will start improving. Now they'll find a mixture of levels of success because they'll still face many of the pressures that currently exist on reserves and within FN communities. If the programs are done right and successfully educate the kids and start integrating them into mainline society, then they'll become more successful. But it won't be until the generation raised by those kids that things will truly turn around.

This isn't a quick fix; it's not something that can be changed overnight or be done instantly. It's going to take time. And everyone fucking hates that it's going to take time. But it's a question of taking time and doing it right, or saying "fuck you, my way or the highway" which, as we all know, has been soooooooooo successful for both sides so far.





As a random aside, I find it kind of offensive that you assumed I was First Nations simply because I wasn't casting blame and feel that the answer is not just a one-sided blame game. This kind of mentality, the "if he disagrees with me he has to be one of them!" is one of the reasons that the negotiations are so challenging. Each side sees the other's view as untenable, which means nobody even wants to try finding a compromise.

And for the record, no, I haven't had many dealings with native people, and the ones I have had have been an extremely mixed bag; some extremely unpleasant and some quite nice. But when people are dicks to me I don't instantly assume that they're assholes, I wonder what's wrong, if they've had a bad day, if I've done something to set them off, or anything else of the sort. I try not to be too terribly judgmental; you'll notice that most of what I've been typing to this point is requests for clarification, requests for civility, points and counterpoints on issues of logic and the like.

And sometimes, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[MindBomber]

Originally Posted by Eastwood

I have a question for the First Nations on this board.

In regards to the future of your movement, would it be better for the people to outright become owners of individual properties from reserves that could be bought and sold to outsiders? For instance the Harper government would give you titles to your house and land and I could purchase it.

Also do you think there should come a time when First Nations should pay tax equivalent to the rest of society? I understand at the moment why they don't, as they are far behind in areas of poverty, education, and employment and need every opportunity to get ahead. But eventually the probability the money train will stop within our lifetime is highly likely.

Thank you, Eastwood; you've asked two intelligent, well-informed questions.

I personally believe, community ownership of property is a more significant benefit than divided ownership. Issues with community ownership undoubtedly exist, it is not as simple a system as individual ownership. Many of the current issues exist purely as a result of Indian Act wording and Government ownership, however, and during a transfer to self-governance a system for community ownership can be established quite effectively. I think community ownership might sound odd too people who are not aboriginal, but I can't think of anything better than the ways its been implemented in some places.

The Tsawwassen Band voluntarily rescinded all tax exemptions when a self-governance agreement was negotiated, and they've become a model for other communities pursuing similar goals. I would feel confident saying, equal taxation across all Aboriginal communities is very plausible within the immediate future. I say its plausible in the immediate future, because the only tax exemptions the majority of Aboriginal people receive are applied to HST/GST for a few purchases annually. The qualifications for exemptions are highly limited.

[Jason00S2000]

Originally Posted by MindBomber

The Tsawwassen Band voluntarily rescinded all tax exemptions when a self-governance agreement was negotiated

How can I negotiate self-governance for residents of Gastown?

[Eastwood]

Originally Posted by Graeme S

As a random aside, I find it kind of offensive that you assumed I was First Nations simply because I wasn't casting blame and feel that the answer is not just a one-sided blame game. This kind of mentality, the "if he disagrees with me he has to be one of them!" is one of the reasons that the negotiations are so challenging. Each side sees the other's view as untenable, which means nobody even wants to try finding a compromise.

And sometimes, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Thank you Graeme S and MindBomber.

Holy shit I was just asking a question, and nowhere in my question did I cast blame or played a one-sided game? Where did you get the idea that I was giving any mentality of "if he disagrees with me has to be one of them"?

I just assumed you were FN because it appeared the thread was an open forum for asking FN questions.

Thanks for the response regardless, but you're an asshole not based on FN issues.

[Soundy]

Originally Posted by Jason00S2000

How can I negotiate self-governance for residents of Gastown?

[toyobaru]

Everyone should be equal, no special treatment. Free up some money for the government. Im tired of hearing people whine for more free shit and abuse our system.

[MindBomber]

Originally Posted by toyobaru

Everyone should be equal, no special treatment. Free up some money for the government. Im tired of hearing people whine for more free shit and abuse our system.

Your comment is not relevant to the discussion, because people are not requesting, "free shit."

[MindBomber]

I believe, Douglas echos many of our thoughts...

It turns out that writing a column about Idle No More and the ongoing battle by Indians in Canada for fair treatment attracts racists the way a wet lawn calls out to worms....

...

As CBC.ca reported, Galloway talked to a Toronto aboriginal artist named Keesic Douglas, who said he has read the comment threads and has had to make himself stop.

“I keep thinking, who are these people who write these things?” Douglas said. “Is that my next-door neighbour?”

full article