Dispute a ticket for red light?

[Soundy]

Originally Posted by Graeme S

LONG POST WARNING. TL;DR: I refute Timpo's arguments in a long-winded way.

...this is why you need to start doing research before you start commentating....

....you're cherry picking your arguments.

You're new around here, aren't you?

[Graeme S]

Naw, just felt like using the same lines on someone other than Sebbery for once.

[zulutango]

My experience in the VT system is, at best, the money involved is "revenue neutral" or even a loss. If you take everything involved...including the cost of the Cop, car,equipment,training, operational expenses repairs, fuel etc), the cost of the ticket processing units at ICBC, their expenses, equipment, rent, wages, benifits....the cost of the court system, front counter staff & their expenses, the courtroom running costs, the JP and court officer saleries, benifits etc...you see where I'm going?

The $138 for your basic speeding VT or even $483 for an excessive speed, hardly pays the bills. Just because you take in money at the front end does not mean you end up with 100% "profit" at the end of the day.

If you had a system where the VTs were issued at no expense at all and paid without dispute, then you could say they had a money grab. There is no way that could happen.

[Soundy]

Hey zulu, next time you have a quota to fill, I got about a dozen real good fishing holes for ya, all within 5 minutes of home - places where dozens if not hundreds of drivers do stupid, selfish, and/or assholish shit on a daily basis, that I would LOVE to see cops set up to reel them in.

Oddly, I almost never see cops in these locations, which leads me to believe that it really isn't about the money... imagine that.

[dared3vil0]

The thing that gets me, Is what about those systems in the states (Still applies in a sense) where you can pay a double fine to avoid points. How ISN'T that a money grab?

[CRS]

Originally Posted by dared3vil0

The thing that gets me, Is what about those systems in the states (Still applies in a sense) where you can pay a double fine to avoid points. How ISN'T that a money grab?

Completely off subject, But i'm coming home like 10 mins ago, and there is 2 RCMP crusiers parked in opposite directions so they can talk, No biggy, I wait (no room to go around) and after a solid ~ 5 minutes, I roll down my window, And all i hear is "YEAH I THINK LUONGO IS GOING TO-" And there's at least 4 cars waiting to get past, and these guys are discussing hockey blocking a road...? They moved after like 7 minutes, But the point is they clearly weren't doing police business...

How does that apply to us at all?

[Timpo]

Originally Posted by zulutango

My experience in the VT system is, at best, the money involved is "revenue neutral" or even a loss. If you take everything involved...including the cost of the Cop, car,equipment,training, operational expenses repairs, fuel etc), the cost of the ticket processing units at ICBC, their expenses, equipment, rent, wages, benifits....the cost of the court system, front counter staff & their expenses, the courtroom running costs, the JP and court officer saleries, benifits etc...you see where I'm going?

The $138 for your basic speeding VT or even $483 for an excessive speed, hardly pays the bills. Just because you take in money at the front end does not mean you end up with 100% "profit" at the end of the day.

If you had a system where the VTs were issued at no expense at all and paid without dispute, then you could say they had a money grab. There is no way that could happen.

You should consider the economic impact if they didn't issue any speeding tickets or insurance premium.

Let's say the violation ticket system is completely gone today. Suddenly JPs, court officers, workers, ICBC and Police employees, etc have no tax payers to pay their wages. They're going to lose their job or get less hours.

I might be completely wrong but if you look at how money circulates in our society, it will be better to have more tickets issued than less.
Because in your theory, more tickets issued = more loss for government.

ICBC | Second phase of life-saving intersection cameras rolled out
ICBC says "All ticket revenue goes to B.C. municipalities" whatever that means?

[Timpo]

Nanaimo News Bulletin - Traffic fine revenue adds up to millions for B.C. communities

[dared3vil0]

Originally Posted by CRS

How does that apply to us at all?

Because it shows that tickets are out there for revenue #1. Just happens to be a bit more obvious.

[Spidey]

Originally Posted by dared3vil0

The thing that gets me, Is what about those systems in the states (Still applies in a sense) where you can pay a double fine to avoid points. How ISN'T that a money grab?

It isn't a money grab, because you have the choice NOT to pay, and take the points. In the end, you broke the law, now you have an extra option. It is up to you whether you want to pay double or take the hit in points, both of which you deserve, and should suck up, for breaking the law.

[zulutango]

Originally Posted by Timpo

Nanaimo News Bulletin - Traffic fine revenue adds up to millions for B.C. communities

The provincial Govt is giving them gross income from traffic tickets because there would be no money coming back if it was "only after profit". I guess obama isn't the only one doing "income redisbribution".

[Timpo]

Originally Posted by BlueG2

It isn't a money grab, because you have the choice NOT to pay, and take the points. In the end, you broke the law, now you have an extra option. It is up to you whether you want to pay double or take the hit in points, both of which you deserve, and should suck up, for breaking the law.

It doesn't matter, no matter how you wanna look at it, "money talks".
In this case, money is solving the problem.

This is showing money can beat the law. Same things goes for bailout money.

The more money you have, more things you get away with it. The law is controlled by human, not god. They're politicians, business executives, whatever you wanna call them. They do in fact, get attracted to money. Sadly.

If you truly think it is NOT a money grab, then they should NOT even give out this option to "buy" the points.

[Timpo]

Originally Posted by dared3vil0

Because it shows that tickets are out there for revenue #1. Just happens to be a bit more obvious.

yeah this could be due to cultural difference between Americans and us.

Americans just happen to be open minded and not hiding it and be straight up about it.

[Graeme S]

You'll remember that I said all fines to go the 'general revenue' pool. Many municipalities pay for their own policing services without subsidies from the Province and what have you. So that means that in Burnaby, where the RCMP are here and are subsidized by the province, our speeding ticket revenues will go to places like Nanaimo that pay everything. The money that is collected from the tickets has to go somewhere, right?

Also. People have been saying that these things are cash grabs and different ways to get cash and all that. Let's think. What's the purpose of these tickets? To provide punishment for those who have failed to obey the law (and get caught--not everyone will get caught, obviously). Now when it comes to punishing people who have broken the law, what options do we have?

Generally speaking, we have three options:
-Fines
-Community service
-Jail

Now I'm fairly certain that people think jail is an inappropriate punishment for MVA offences. Community service is annoying and frustrating--some people would probably prefer community service to fines, but just as many would rather pay money than lose 200 hours of their life.

So what's left? Fines. And remember, it's not just about speed. Driving without due care. Driving while under the influence. Roadside suspensions. All of these things result in the same form of punishment.

People who get caught speeding use all kinds of justifications: "Everyone was" "that's the speed people normally drive at" "he was picking on me" "I didn't notice" "I didn't know the limit changed" And a quintrillion others. People complain that the fines are too high, or that they're unfair. And then for people who get caught with a DUI they get their cars taken away, and people claim that is unfair too.

If you feel that fines are unfair, then maybe you should start thinking of the other forms of punishment that you could be hit with if the government stops issuing fines. Do you want to lose your car instead? Go to jail? No? Then be glad you don't live in Sweden where the traffic fines are relative to your income.

[Soundy]

Originally Posted by Timpo

Let's say the violation ticket system is completely gone today. Suddenly JPs, court officers, workers, ICBC and Police employees, etc have no tax payers to pay their wages. They're going to lose their job or get less hours.

I might be completely wrong...

"MIGHT"??

Do you have any idea how insanely fucking clogged up the courts are? Cases are taking months if not years to come to trial - the trial over the Queen of the North sinking just started a week ago, nearly SIX YEARS after the sinking. My buddy disputed a red light ticket and just last week got his court date, *9 months* after he filed the dispute.

Trust me, nobody's jobs would be lost if the need for VTs suddenly disappeared - people working in the justice system have job security for years to come.

[Timpo]

Originally Posted by Graeme S

You'll remember that I said all fines to go the 'general revenue' pool. Many municipalities pay for their own policing services without subsidies from the Province and what have you. So that means that in Burnaby, where the RCMP are here and are subsidized by the province, our speeding ticket revenues will go to places like Nanaimo that pay everything. The money that is collected from the tickets has to go somewhere, right?

Also. People have been saying that these things are cash grabs and different ways to get cash and all that. Let's think. What's the purpose of these tickets? To provide punishment for those who have failed to obey the law (and get caught--not everyone will get caught, obviously). Now when it comes to punishing people who have broken the law, what options do we have?

Generally speaking, we have three options:
-Fines
-Community service
-Jail

Now I'm fairly certain that people think jail is an inappropriate punishment for MVA offences. Community service is annoying and frustrating--some people would probably prefer community service to fines, but just as many would rather pay money than lose 200 hours of their life.

So what's left? Fines. And remember, it's not just about speed. Driving without due care. Driving while under the influence. Roadside suspensions. All of these things result in the same form of punishment.

People who get caught speeding use all kinds of justifications: "Everyone was" "that's the speed people normally drive at" "he was picking on me" "I didn't notice" "I didn't know the limit changed" And a quintrillion others. People complain that the fines are too high, or that they're unfair. And then for people who get caught with a DUI they get their cars taken away, and people claim that is unfair too.

If you feel that fines are unfair, then maybe you should start thinking of the other forms of punishment that you could be hit with if the government stops issuing fines. Do you want to lose your car instead? Go to jail? No? Then be glad you don't live in Sweden where the traffic fines are relative to your income.

I have to say you're wrong.

I can say this because of my personal experience.
Back in the day, I kept losing hours from work and my boss was being really anal about everything. You know, we all have hard time in our lifetime.
I was driving everywhere because I worked at so many places at once. Because I could only get part time work.

Sometimes I was late for work, stuck in traffic jam, I got speeding tickets...(yes i know its dumb)
And shortly after I lost most of my hours due to my employers cost cutting and all.

I disputed all the speeding tickets, because I could not afford them.
I called officers who issued the tickets, went to the police stations, talked the JPs, etc...

I tried explain them I am not trying to get away with what I have done, but the financial situation was terrible.
I offered them community services and everything, I told them I am willing to do whatever.

However, to make a long story short, violation tickets are "Motor Vehicle Act" and the only way of punishment is money. Plain and simple.

They all told me that community services are for actual criminals. Not for tickets.

I did feel unfair because the price of speeding ticket is not that expensive people who make 6 figure salary. (for example)
And judges and officers make good money, so maybe few hundred bucks is nothing to freak out about, but at the end. The money was only solution.

But the judge was being very nice about it and gave me price reduction + more time to pay though. But he said that's the best he could do for it and my offer for community service was rejected.

Well it was a long time ago and I'm over it, but just so you know, unless you commit serious crime, DUI and kill people, etc, community services do not apply.

[Spidey]

Originally Posted by Timpo

It doesn't matter, no matter how you wanna look at it, "money talks".
In this case, money is solving the problem.

This is showing money can beat the law. Same things goes for bailout money.

The more money you have, more things you get away with it. The law is controlled by human, not god. They're politicians, business executives, whatever you wanna call them. They do in fact, get attracted to money. Sadly.

If you truly think it is NOT a money grab, then they should NOT even give out this option to "buy" the points.

So what if money talks? What would you suggest be a proper form of punishment for traffic offences? Jail? ummmm yea, that will go well. A criminal record for someone who went 10 over the speed limit. No matter how you look at it, it will cost you money if you do something wrong. You fight the ticket, and go to court, you are losing money as time =money. You get your car towed, you PAY for it back. Everything comes down to money, so i don't see why you are crying about fines. Fines are just a DIRECT way collecting money. You may think rich people may get away with more as it is less of a hit, but if they have the mentality that "it's only 100 bucks", and keep violating traffic laws (or whatever laws), they are just going to keep paying 100+ bucks every time. Even for wealthy people, you would think that there would be a point where they will realize all the tickets are adding up.... and even if money isn't an issue, all the tickets they accumulate will possibly cost them a licence suspension.

[Spidey]

Originally Posted by Timpo

I have to say you're wrong.

I can say this because of my personal experience.
Back in the day, I kept losing hours from work and my boss was being really anal about everything. You know, we all have hard time in our lifetime.
I was driving everywhere because I worked at so many places at once. Because I could only get part time work.

Sometimes I was late for work, stuck in traffic jam, I got speeding tickets...(yes i know its dumb)
And shortly after I lost most of my hours due to my employers cost cutting and all.

I disputed all the speeding tickets, because I could not afford them.
I called officers who issued the tickets, went to the police stations, talked the JPs, etc...

I tried explain them I am not trying to get away with what I have done, but the financial situation was terrible.
I offered them community services and everything, I told them I am willing to do whatever.

However, to make a long story short, violation tickets are "Motor Vehicle Act" and the only way of punishment is money. Plain and simple.

They all told me that community services are for actual criminals. Not for tickets.

I did feel unfair because the price of speeding ticket is not that expensive people who make 6 figure salary. (for example)
And judges and officers make good money, so maybe few hundred bucks is nothing to freak out about, but at the end. The money was only solution.

But the judge was being very nice about it and gave me price reduction + more time to pay though. But he said that's the best he could do for it and my offer for community service was rejected.

Well it was a long time ago and I'm over it, but just so you know, unless you commit serious crime, DUI and kill people, etc, community services do not apply.

like I previously said.. even if you had to perform community service, do you not think your time is worth money? either way it is money.. I believe paying a fine is actually cheaper than community service, or going to court.

So you are crying because you couldn't afford tickets you had..... how may tickets did you collect over the years? If you couldn't afford tickets, oh lets say, after the FIRST time, maybe you should have NOT broken any MVA's. Everyone who speeds does it knowing there's a risk even if they go 1km over the speed limit. So the fact that you couldn't afford to pay for tickets because of your situation, and kept doing so, makes me wonder WTF is wrong with you.

btw. how old are you?

[Timpo]

Originally Posted by Soundy

"MIGHT"??

Do you have any idea how insanely fucking clogged up the courts are? Cases are taking months if not years to come to trial - the trial over the Queen of the North sinking just started a week ago, nearly SIX YEARS after the sinking. My buddy disputed a red light ticket and just last week got his court date, *9 months* after he filed the dispute.

Trust me, nobody's jobs would be lost if the need for VTs suddenly disappeared - people working in the justice system have job security for years to come.

ohh ok yeah good point

[Timpo]

Originally Posted by BlueG2

like I previously said.. even if you had to perform community service, do you not think your time is worth money? either way it is money.. I believe paying a fine is actually cheaper than community service, or going to court.

So you are crying because you couldn't afford tickets you had..... how may tickets did you collect over the years? If you couldn't afford tickets, oh lets say, after the FIRST time, maybe you should have NOT broken any MVA's. Everyone who speeds does it knowing there's a risk even if they go 1km over the speed limit. So the fact that you couldn't afford to pay for tickets because of your situation, and kept doing so, makes me wonder WTF is wrong with you.

btw. how old are you?

yeah I was afraid of losing jobs I guess, just so you know I was not speeding for a joy or just to act like a racer on the road.
and i was not saying it was not fair, i was just saying that his point of community services option was wrong.

[Timpo]

Originally Posted by BlueG2

So what if money talks? What would you suggest be a proper form of punishment for traffic offences? Jail? ummmm yea, that will go well. A criminal record for someone who went 10 over the speed limit. No matter how you look at it, it will cost you money if you do something wrong. You fight the ticket, and go to court, you are losing money as time =money. You get your car towed, you PAY for it back. Everything comes down to money, so i don't see why you are crying about fines. Fines are just a DIRECT way collecting money. You may think rich people may get away with more as it is less of a hit, but if they have the mentality that "it's only 100 bucks", and keep violating traffic laws (or whatever laws), they are just going to keep paying 100+ bucks every time. Even for wealthy people, you would think that there would be a point where they will realize all the tickets are adding up.... and even if money isn't an issue, all the tickets they accumulate will possibly cost them a licence suspension.

you're kinda missing point...the 'time' you spent won't benefit to the government, it's your own thing.

also if you were to value 'time' to 'money', well kids who work at McDonald's time will only worth minimum wage, whereas corporate executives time will worth $500+/hr.

[Graeme S]

Originally Posted by Timpo

yeah I was afraid of losing jobs I guess, just so you know I was not speeding for a joy or just to act like a racer on the road.
and i was not saying it was not fair, i was just saying that his point of community services option was wrong.

Timpo, you misread or misunderstood my post. My post was a 'what if', not a 'your choice'. IF fines WERE NOT an option, then the only others would be community service, confiscation, or jail. $137 is 13 hours at minimum wage (let's say 15 to account for taxes and deductions). 200 hours of community service is much more than that. Confiscation means you can't go to work anymore. Jail means your life is ruined.

Nobody likes fines, mostly because nobody likes punishments. But everyone knows that if you get caught, you get punished. Your circumstances resulted in a bad situation, and I'm not saying that what happened to you was fair. But the alternatives to fines for VTs are overly harsh in many (but not all) cases.

Originally Posted by Timpo

you're kinda missing point...the 'time' you spent won't benefit to the government, it's your own thing.

also if you were to value 'time' to 'money', well kids who work at McDonald's time will only worth minimum wage, whereas corporate executives time will worth $500+/hr.

Actually, the time you spend does benefit the government. By doing community service (speaking to people, picking up garbage, helping at a soup kitchen) you help to reduce the burden on the government. And yes, that's true about the time vs money. But if you'll look up a bit, you'll see that VTs are still less 'punishing' than anything else.

[Spidey]

Originally Posted by Timpo

you're kinda missing point...the 'time' you spent won't benefit to the government, it's your own thing.

also if you were to value 'time' to 'money', well kids who work at McDonald's time will only worth minimum wage, whereas corporate executives time will worth $500+/hr.

how much you make, generally equates to your cost of living. so it actually wouldn't make that big of a difference in what your "time is worth". Someone who makes who loses 1000 a day for community service takes the same percentage of his/her income as someone who makes 100 a day. The person who makes 100 a day would probably have significantly less bills (you would hope/think) compared to the wealthier person.

I don't believe the argument that rich people get away with more if fines were just money, and that poor people would if it was community service.

so, for the second time, how old are you

[sho_bc]

Originally Posted by Timpo

......snip......I got speeding tickets...(yes i know its dumb)

....snip........I disputed all the speeding tickets, because I could not afford them.

......snip......I tried explain them I am not trying to get away with what I have done, but the financial situation was terrible.
I offered them community services and everything, I told them I am willing to do whatever.

.....snip......I did feel unfair because the price of speeding ticket is not that expensive people who make 6 figure salary. (for example)

If you couldn't afford to pay the speeding tickets, it all could have been avoided by not speeding. If you don't like the price of a ticket, don't commit the offence. All I read in your post is excuses for doing something you know you shouldn't have been doing. Don't want to spend 25 to life in prison? Don't commit murder. Don't want to get a $138 ticket, don't speed. Super simple.

[Soundy]

Originally Posted by Timpo

I have to say you're wrong.

I can say this because of my personal experience.

I don't care if it gets me points, I have to say it: you're a fucking retard.

For the safety of C-lais everywhere, just stay off the road.