Bitcoins anyone?

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp

As much as I want bitcoin to work, stating that it "works" or "doesn't work" this early is just stupid.

You keep bringing this up, but it only affects people who are buying and selling on the exchanges. If you don't trust the exchanges, or aren't interested in buying and selling, there is absolutely no reason why you need to consider using them.

With Bitcoin, you can do absolutely anything you want with it. If you want to "buy low and sell high" on an exchange to make a quick buck, go for it. If you don't trust ANY of the exchanges but still want to make a quick buck, use localbitcoins or see if someone here wants to buy.

If you want to actually hold or spend your bitcoins, you can completely ignore the exchanges and everyone else, and just control your own wallet. Nobody can take it from you - not a poorly run exchange, not the government which can put limits on bank withdrawals if they want, not anyone.

The thing here is fundamental flaws in Btc nature. We can argue all we want, but the fact is, the only way to securely use Btc is in p2p setting as you suggest. Which in term implies that it can never become a mainstream instrument as the idea of money was a tool to facilitate trades. If the only way to spend this "money" is that the other party must be willing to accept it, (as it is dangerous to trust an exchange with it), this money isn't exactly useful. With cash, I can always bring it to a bank to deposit it. I know they will happily take it and I don't have to worry of this bank disappears overnight.

I make my opinion based on facts about Btc. It is a great idea. But it would take a perfect world for it to function properly. Otherwise, these features (notably the fact of being unregulated and untraceable) become fundamental flaws.

[MindBomber]

Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp

You keep bringing this up, but it only affects people who are buying and selling on the exchanges. If you don't trust the exchanges, or aren't interested in buying and selling, there is absolutely no reason why you need to consider using them.

With Bitcoin, you can do absolutely anything you want with it. If you want to "buy low and sell high" on an exchange to make a quick buck, go for it. If you don't trust ANY of the exchanges but still want to make a quick buck, use localbitcoins or see if someone here wants to buy.

If you want to actually hold or spend your bitcoins, you can completely ignore the exchanges and everyone else, and just control your own wallet. Nobody can take it from you - not a poorly run exchange, not the government which can put limits on bank withdrawals if they want, not anyone.

When exchanges show themselves to be untrustworthy the value of all bitcoin drops. I could mine bitcoins or buy them on localbitcoins and never be involved with an exchange but because they still have their value set by them the intrinsic issue with them is still important.

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by Hehe

The thing here is fundamental flaws in Btc nature. We can argue all we want, but the fact is, the only way to securely use Btc is in p2p setting as you suggest. Which in term implies that it can never become a mainstream instrument as the idea of money was a tool to facilitate trades. If the only way to spend this "money" is that the other party must be willing to accept it, (as it is dangerous to trust an exchange with it), this money isn't exactly useful. With cash, I can always bring it to a bank to deposit it. I know they will happily take it and I don't have to worry of this bank disappears overnight.

I make my opinion based on facts about Btc. It is a great idea. But it would take a perfect world for it to function properly. Otherwise, these features (notably the fact of being unregulated and untraceable) become fundamental flaws.

Yes, this is much better

Bank nearly goes bankrupt, is deemed "too big to fail" Government bails them out with £46 billion from the taxpayer who has no choice in the matter. Bank then loses that £46 BILLION. Of course this doesn't include the £576 million that was set aside for executive bonuses.. they still got those of course.

When something bad happens at an poorly run exchange, people stay the hell away and find someone else to deal with. When this happens with a bank, regulations kick in and take people from the money for the bank to lose all over again.

And let's not even get started with how fucked wall street is.

I understand that change is a scary thing. However the paradigm needs to shift, IMO.

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp

Yes, this is much better

Bank nearly goes bankrupt, is deemed "too big to fail" Government bails them out with £46 billion from the taxpayer who has no choice in the matter. Bank then loses that £46 BILLION. Of course this doesn't include the £576 million that was set aside for executive bonuses.. they still got those of course.

When something bad happens at an poorly run exchange, people stay the hell away and find someone else to deal with. When this happens with a bank, regulations kick in and take people from the money for the bank to lose all over again.

And let's not even get started with how fucked wall street is.

I understand that change is a scary thing. However the paradigm needs to shift, IMO.

You have a point. Poorly run exchanges/banks/whatever can make catastrophic damages no matter what kind of asset we hold.

Nevertheless, it still doesn't change the fact that BTC is fundamentally unable to do what regular currency can because of its nature.

BTC is unregulated and untraceable; making nerds and hippies to go nuts because now it's "free" of control. However, without a governing body, very little (if any) can be done when shit happens.

For this reason, it's very hard to believe that BTC would be able to sustain any long term stability because the more stable BTC becomes, the more valuable it is. And the more valuable it is, the more incentive it gives people to go bad. It's simply human nature. And the best part? There is really no serious law in any country that penalize such.

There are people suing MtGox in US... and from my understanding in some commercial law in US, the most they would get from MtGox or its founder would be a few years of prison (up to 5years from what I read) and minimal financial penalty because the status of BTC is null in a court of law. Even if convicted and the judge feels like setting a precedent, there is no law they can use as BTC is not part of the financial system and therefore the laws applied on financial market don't mean jack here.

And even if he gets the full setence, 5 years in a low security jail for 400M? Heck, I wouldn't think twice.

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by Hehe

You have a point. Poorly run exchanges/banks/whatever can make catastrophic damages no matter what kind of asset we hold.

Nevertheless, it still doesn't change the fact that BTC is fundamentally unable to do what regular currency can because of its nature.

BTC is unregulated and untraceable; making nerds and hippies to go nuts because now it's "free" of control. However, without a governing body, very little (if any) can be done when shit happens.

For this reason, it's very hard to believe that BTC would be able to sustain any long term stability because the more stable BTC becomes, the more valuable it is. And the more valuable it is, the more incentive it gives people to go bad. It's simply human nature. And the best part? There is really no serious law in any country that penalize such.

There are people suing MtGox in US... and from my understanding in some commercial law in US, the most they would get from MtGox or its founder would be a few years of prison (up to 5years from what I read) and minimal financial penalty because the status of BTC is null in a court of law. Even if convicted and the judge feels like setting a precedent, there is no law they can use as BTC is not part of the financial system and therefore the laws applied on financial market don't mean jack here.

And even if he gets the full setence, 5 years in a low security jail for 400M? Heck, I wouldn't think twice.

However, without a governing body, very little (if any) can be done when shit happens

So let's compare "shit happens" with losing your bitcoin wallet, and losing the wallet in your pocket that has money in it.

What do 'regulations' do when someone steals your bitcoin wallet? The police can look into the theft. Maybe they'll recover it.

What happens when someone steals your wallet and cash? Police can look into the theft. Maybe they'll recover it. At most, you'll get your wallet back.

How do regulations help you in this case?

And the more valuable it is, the more incentive it gives people to go bad. It's simply human nature.

So just like money then...

The funny thing about the anti bitcoin sentiment is that people seem to forget that there is no inherent safety in dealing with cash either, for the most part. You are protected if you keep your deposits in a bank that goes under, but beyond that, how else are you more protected? If you invest with some shitty mutual fund and they lose all your money, where are you going to go to get your money back? So instead, you would smartly go to a more established institution. You would do the same with Bitcoin. Thing is, it is literally brand new, and these institutions are in the process of establishing themselves right now.

As for suing Gox, who knows. Everything is so new right now. Which is why i keep saying it is literally stupid to say you know something has failed or not failed, or will fail. It may, but I think enough people WANT it to work, and the design is nearly perfect (if not perfect) that I don't see how it would. So far some things have happened, but people kept it going. It is going through growing pains, and each time something happens, the old school crowd says "bitcoin failed, I was right". Only to see it bounce back, because so many people want it to work.

[SkinnyPupp]

Bitcoin co-founder just launched this site, backed by Google Ventures. Looks really easy to buy and sell

https://buttercoin.com/

[PiuYi]

From my understanding, mt. Gox didn't STEAL the lost BTC's right? the bits of code representing those BTCs were compromised, lost, and those BTCs will never be recovered (which is what i'm assuming mt. Gox spent the past half month trying to do)

so in the end, nobody has benefited from mt. Gox's downfall, correct? well, except maybe central banks, governments, and other up and coming virtual currencies (cue the conspiracy theorists)

anyway, if there are ZERO people benefiting from exchange crashes like these, then BTC is already arguably superior to stock markets and currencies controlled by central banks, where for every crash/policy manipulation there are losers but also SOME winners

[SkinnyPupp]

Nobody knows 100% exactly what happened.

According to them, someone was stealing from them for years. Like for as long as they have been around, when BTC was like $2. For this to be possible, people have had to have been stealing almost all the money they had from day 1, without them noticing. Either that, or the majority was gone when they first started.

However people have found wallets attributed to them, accounting for about 200-300K worth if bitcoin.

One of the theories is that he simply lost the keys for their cold storage. Like he had it on an USB, lost it, or put it in the wash or something like that.

Unfortunately it is literally impossible to crack a private key (at least until quantum computing becomes a thing - then it becomes theoretically feasible at least) so if this is the case, they are truly gone.

[MindBomber]

I don't think a neutral observer would exonerate mt. Gox that easily, PiuYi.

The general sentiment seems to be that mt. Gox stole from the exchange.

The similar exchange issues, like Silkroad 2.0, are nearly confirmed to be insiders stealing from their exchanges.

I like the comparison to communism on the other page - great on paper, not so in practice - because greed is the issue hurting the bitcoin cause the most.

Of course, greed is the issue hurting most every cause the most, so maybe that's a moot point.

[Presto]

With BTC and crypto value sitting on the low side, I went and bit the bullet on an ASIC: Bitmain Antminer S1. Cost was 1.37BTC shipping included. It's rated at 180GH/s @ less than 500 watts.

[SkinnyPupp]

Cool let us know how it goes. It better arrive asap! Every minute you spend not mining after paying for it is a waste

[Presto]

The thread I was reading on some cryptocurrency forum had great for reviews for this manufacturer. Usually, they're delivered in a couple days!

[SkinnyPupp]

Kind of lame that it doesn't have PCI-E plugs on it, so you have to take apart an extender and solder it yourself

So does it connect directly to a network? Or does it connect to a PC via USB?

[Presto]

Specs say WIFI / LAN:

ANTMINER S1 Dual Blades Spec

Hash rate: 180 GH/s
Power consumption: about 360 W from the wall
Power supply: 3 +12V DC input
Power efficiency: 2 W/GH/s on wall
Size: 135 mm x 155 mm x 300 mm
Network connection: Ethernet Cable / WIFI
Cooling: 12cm PWM fans and customized heat sink

[SkinnyPupp]

I see.. it also has a USB port.. I'll look at some guides and see how it works

Part of me wonders if it's smarter to just buy the bitcoin... It's usually nearly impossible to break even on mining hardware

[SkinnyPupp]

I'm curious about the pro-government regulation people... You trust these regulators so much, yet they are the ones who let everyone down with the financial crisis and housing crash. Those are totally regulated banking industries, yet it still happened. And guess what, US equities dropped more in price than Bitcoin did when this happened...

Also, just because something isn't regulated by the government doesn't mean it can't have checks and balances, and safety nets in place. There's nothing about bitcoin not being regulated that says a company can't offer insurance, or groups of companies can't join and create their own regulations people must follow, etc. Like I keep saying, it's still brand new - we are still at day 1.

It's just weird that people want so bad for the government to control everything they do. Then when they get screwed over by policy, they bitch and moan.. but keep going along with status quo.

Maybe the internet is the thing that is needed to empower people, and until now there wasn't a way to set up a system like this. If you look at how different things were before the internet, this is absolutely clear to me.

WHich brings up, maybe this is an age thing. Mindbomber your profile says you are 22... well when I was 22, the dot com bubble just burst. But more imporatantly was the time before that. Going to high school when there was no internet, yet finishing high school when there was. It really is incredible how different things were back then, but during this time you were still being potty trained....

Looking at all the 'haters' (well, by this I mean the people who "thank" every anti-bitcoin post, and the ones making jokes) this trend seems to be true. Almost all of these people are between 18-22 with one or two who are in their late 20's. That is quite interesting.

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

people are not born equal.

there are followers and there are leaders. followers encompass like 75-85% of all people. they are literally incapable of following anything but the status quo. if left to their own, it would be utter chaos. the hive, without the hive mind.

the regulators we have are the best that we can come up with. which is better than nothing. they fail us because they are human.

the companies you speak of that will rise and gain reputation with time... they'll be supported by the followers, or be voted in by the followers and gain enough power to eventually be at the same level as these same regulators you talk about.

it's just the birth of the same shit happening again. it always leads to the same thing.

well that's how i see it.

the birth of a new market is only a mirror of any mature market. they all rise and fall.

i cant really think of any "market/group" in recorded history that has matured into something that is "unregulated".

the nature of humans is to grasp and control... I don't see how we will avoid that. nothing will change, until the human element changes. until humanities genetic values change.

[MindBomber]

Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp

I'm curious about the pro-government regulation people... You trust these regulators so much, yet they are the ones who let everyone down with the financial crisis and housing crash. Those are totally regulated banking industries, yet it still happened. And guess what, US equities dropped more in price than Bitcoin did when this happened...

Also, just because something isn't regulated by the government doesn't mean it can't have checks and balances, and safety nets in place. There's nothing about bitcoin not being regulated that says a company can't offer insurance, or groups of companies can't join and create their own regulations people must follow, etc. Like I keep saying, it's still brand new - we are still at day 1.

It's just weird that people want so bad for the government to control everything they do. Then when they get screwed over by policy, they bitch and moan.. but keep going along with status quo.

Maybe the internet is the thing that is needed to empower people, and until now there wasn't a way to set up a system like this. If you look at how different things were before the internet, this is absolutely clear to me.

I don't trust present government regulatory policy or its regulators and, as a result, I support a paradigm shift. But, because I do not support government regulatory policy and its regulators in their present state does not mean I do not support the notion of government regulatory policy and regulators in a paradigm shift. I believe, the state of humanity still requires these systemic safeguards due to greed, unsophisticated understandings of systems by participants, etc. It's an unfortunate necessity in a still minimally advanced society.

I would love to see bitcoin become self-regulating because that would solve the most significant of a series of issues which I believe will hinder or prevent its progress. The question is how bitcoin would prevent its self-regulation becoming like present government regulation and, in turn, negating its advantage. I never said I don't support the idea of bitcoin, I just see issues that need to be addressed. Think of it as constructive criticism.

WHich brings up, maybe this is an age thing. Mindbomber your profile says you are 22... well when I was 22, the dot com bubble just burst. But more imporatantly was the time before that. Going to high school when there was no internet, yet finishing high school when there was. It really is incredible how different things were back then, but during this time you were still being potty trained....

Looking at all the 'haters' (well, by this I mean the people who "thank" every anti-bitcoin post, and the ones making jokes) this trend seems to be true. Almost all of these people are between 18-22 with one or two who are in their late 20's. That is quite interesting.

I'm 26. I don't see where on my profile my age is listed. I didn't have internet access outside of the school library/lab until mid high school, which was the case for most of my friends. I didn't even have a computer at home until mid elementary school. I very much remember how different things were.

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

for the note i am not anti bitcoin. I just like predicting price action, which I have done already. lol.

whether or not bitcoin will be useful beyond what it is now, I can't predict. The possibilities are still too open to make any prediction that isn't just... based on whether you support the idea of btc or not.

ideally, yeah I like the idea of bitcoin. Although I see a lot of flaws. Maybe another "bitcoin" will come about in the future when we're in a real financial crisis. another real depression with real hyper inflation. where enough people will just dump their shit and transfer over and when things settle people are too ingrained in the new system to wanna switch back. timing is everything.

edit: which site is best for following bitcoin prices?

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by Ulic Qel-Droma

for the note i am not anti bitcoin. I just like predicting price action, which I have done already. lol.

whether or not bitcoin will be useful beyond what it is now, I can't predict. The possibilities are still too open to make any prediction that isn't just... based on whether you support the idea of btc or not.

ideally, yeah I like the idea of bitcoin. Although I see a lot of flaws. Maybe another "bitcoin" will come about in the future when we're in a real financial crisis. another real depression with real hyper inflation. where enough people will just dump their shit and transfer over and when things settle people are too ingrained in the new system to wanna switch back. timing is everything.

edit: which site is best for following bitcoin prices?

I know you're not anti bitcoin and I also know you like to predict financial trends (which you have yet to come close to doing regarding bitcoin btw... Also, MtGox hasn't counted for months, and literally doesn't count at all now)

I give you a bit of a hard time for the 'prediction' thing because I don't think something like this is predictable. It's not like commodities or equities where it's just "whatever happens happens" and people doing the same thing over and over again (including doing what you're doing). IMO, this is something truly new and epic, with some power behind trying to keep it alive and as useful as possible.

For basic price worldwide, use preev.com or bitcoinaverage.com (the latter tells you which exchanges are being ignored). To see the price that most people are trading at, use bitstamp

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by MindBomber

I don't trust present government regulatory policy or its regulators and, as a result, I support a paradigm shift. But, because I do not support government regulatory policy and its regulators in their present state does not mean I do not support the notion of government regulatory policy and regulators in a paradigm shift. I believe, the state of humanity still requires these systemic safeguards due to greed, unsophisticated understandings of systems by participants, etc. It's an unfortunate necessity in a still minimally advanced society.

I would love to see bitcoin become self-regulating because that would solve the most significant of a series of issues which I believe will hinder or prevent its progress. The question is how bitcoin would prevent its self-regulation becoming like present government regulation and, in turn, negating its advantage. I never said I don't support the idea of bitcoin, I just see issues that need to be addressed. Think of it as constructive criticism.



I'm 26. I don't see where on my profile my age is listed. I didn't have internet access outside of the school library/lab until mid high school, which was the case for most of my friends. I didn't even have a computer at home until mid elementary school. I very much remember how different things were.

I realize that you're just asking questions, and that's a good thing. I think a lot fewer people would have been screwed by Gox had they done the same.

Regarding the age, apparently the "Age" section of RS profiles is just based on whatever you enter when you register. I went back and looked at actual birthdates, and everyone is 22-26, with one guy who is 34 but he's pretty much a troll, so hardly counts

I still think it's an interesting trend. I would have thought this age group would be on the leading edge of something like this, but in Canada at least, it doesn't look to be the case.

I definitely think the internet revolution (and it truly is a revolution, probably the biggest in our history) would have been much more profound to someone my age (35) compared to someone born 10 years later. Especially since I was on the cutting edge of that as well.

[SkinnyPupp]

HM Revenue & Customs: Revenue & Customs Brief 09/14

HMRC (UK's version of Revenue Canada or IRC) gives specifics on how Bitcoin is to be handled.

- Income from miners is VAT exempt
- Charges for arranging transactions in crypto-currencies is VAT exempt
- Crypto-currencies transferred to fiat is VAT exempt
- VAT due as normal for selling goods/services paid in crypto-currencies (calculated in GBP at point of transaction)
- Corporation Tax: no special rules apply, it will be treated as foreign exchange and loan relationships
- Income Tax: business profits from crypto-currencies taxed as normal income
- Capital Gains: gains or losses from crypto-currencies allowable as CG for an individual or corporation tax for a business
- Gambling gains are not taxable although losses cannot be offset against other gains

In case you were wondering why the price shot up today. Most interesting to me is that they consider it a currency, and for corporate tax, is treated as foreign exchange.

[Hondaracer]

Tempted to pull some $$$ out
Posted via RS Mobile

[SkinnyPupp]

Go for it, you'll never get it back

Until the next fuckup happens

I'd rather just keey buying on the fuckups. Then when they stop happening, it's TOO THE MOON~! ┗(°0°)┛

[SkinnyPupp]

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