Activists trying to remove Chinese signs in Richmond

[$_$]

Originally Posted by MindBomber

Are you attempting to support your claims that I'm xenophobic?

Please understand that not all my posts are directed at you. If I am not directly responding to your comments, they are usually directed at the forum at large.

[El Bastardo]

Originally Posted by $_$

Many of you still treat Chinese-Canadians as foreigners living in your country. They are not. They are full fledged Canadians. This is where the xenophobia comes from. You don't get upset at an authentic Italian restaurant or Russian restaurant written in only their respective languages.

I think the problem stems from people being upset at this one group who chooses to willingly live like foreigners, segregating themselves from everyone else and maintaining a language that is not spoken widely by the existing population.

[stewie]

congrats, i guess you've discovered that some people here are xenophobic!!! now you can sleep peacefully tonight.

now dont act like any of you guys are fucking saints, cause not one person on this forum is.

13 pages of going back and forth, and its not going to stop anytime soon. for that reason im just gonna say fuck this thread.(if you think this is my way of holding up a white flag...your more than welcome to come to my house and talk)

not everyone will have the same views as you....and theres no changing mine. no matter how hard you try to tell us to look at it from your perspective or vice versa...it will never change.

if you wanna call us xenophobic's, please feel free. if i want to think of some of you guys as wad's who have to try to analyze every single word someone says and act like your a bunch of psychologists with a phd, i will.

[pyros1]

Originally Posted by MindBomber

In Canada, there's no right to freedom of expression.

I don't see a conflict, anyway.

How does the presence of english on a sign create a conflict? Its nothing more than a marketing tool.

Mandating an official language (presumably english) ensures a business caters to all ethnicities as equally as possible, where's the conflict?

Freedom of speech in Canada is protected as a "fundamental freedom" by Section 2 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

A Right Not Exercised is a Right Lost

Next your going to tell me I can't speak any language I want in front of people who don't understand it, or because it's not an official language. No thank you.

Originally Posted by El Bastardo

I think the problem stems from people being upset at this one group who chooses to willingly live like foreigners, segregating themselves from everyone else and maintaining a language that is not spoken widely by the existing population.

So what about the Amish living in Pennsylavania. Their choice is to live a simpler lifestyle. Does that make them foreigners to all other Americans? If one's choice is to have Chinese signage that APPEARS make me live like a foreigner. Does that mean I'm actually a foreigner? Will an Amish decide that they are more Dutch and not American? What dictates who and what we are. It's all a matter of perspective.

[EmperorIS]

Originally Posted by stewie

congrats, i guess you've discovered that some people here are xenophobic!!! now you can sleep peacefully tonight.

now dont act like any of you guys are fucking saints, cause not one person on this forum is.

13 pages of going back and forth, and its not going to stop anytime soon. for that reason im just gonna say fuck this thread.(if you think this is my way of holding up a white flag...your more than welcome to come to my house and talk)

not everyone will have the same views as you....and theres no changing mine. no matter how hard you try to tell us to look at it from your perspective or vice versa...it will never change.

if you wanna call us xenophobic's, please feel free. if i want to think of some of you guys as wad's who have to try to analyze every single word someone says and act like your a bunch of psychologists with a phd, i will.

You started it.

[stewie]

Originally Posted by EmperorIS

You started it.

and im ending myself out of it now, as stated, if you'd like to continue, please feel free to pm me and meet me at my house and we can further talk 1 on 1.

[Tim Budong]

Canada is built on multiculturalism, so why can't different races live they want in their own community?

Again, Many of you have said that unless you've lived or spend time in Richmond, you wouldn't really see or understand that there is absolutely no trouble with communicating with the general public. The same mentality goes for Surrey or Abby.

It doesn't surprise me that city council rejected the notion, it wouldnt surprise me either if the province rejects it if it was ever brought up. We are not Quebec.

[Lomac]

Originally Posted by $_$

Yes, of course. Of course it's racism because it's targeted attacks on a group of people. If you want to get technical and say it's not (because they are the same race), then it's discrimination. That's only a technical difference, but the negativity is the same.

If the people of Quebec decide that they want to keep their French-Canadien heritage by enforcing a strict French signage laws then power to them. That's the culture and heritage there - I wholly respect and even support that because the majority of the people there are French Canadiens. Their elected officials made it happen through the correct political channels.

Shame on the vandals, but also shame on the store owners for not respecting the choices of the community you live in.


It's drastically different here. We are full of Chinese Canadians. And I see the point you are trying to make. The Anglo-Canadians want to keep the Canadian heritage alive by enforcing an English signage policy. The difference is that the Anglo-Canadians are not the majority here; not even by a close margin- the Asian Canadians are. And in this free, democratic society of ours majority always rules. I encourage you to garner support with your Anglo-Canadian peers and those who support you in order to rallify change. I welcome open and honest discussions - even racist ones if that is how you feel because I accept people's opinion and understand it if you can prove your side of thinking. I welcome it because it will truly show what those most opposed to this topic are thinking throughout this time as more immigrants have shown up without needing or wanting to adapt to "your view of Canadian-ization" without this bullshit veil (not directed at you specifically Lomac). What I cannot and will not accept is people pretending to care about the well being of others while being obviously racist or xenophobic underneath.

For the record, I think Bill 101 and the language police in Quebec are outrageously stupid ideas. I understand the Francophones are trying to keep the French heritage alive and not become lost in history. I get it, but it's being done entirely the wrong way and does nothing but perpetuate the existing hatred between French and English speakers.

The same thing is kinda happening here, albeit on a much much smaller scale. One the one hand, I do feel a little bit for the people who grew up in Richmond that are starting to feel like strangers in their own town. I'm sure that there likely are some racist undertones somewhere with a few of those people, but I don't believe that the majority of them are xenophobic. It's likely that they don't like change. I'm sure that instead of an influx of Chinese immigrant it was a giant French or, even, a huge Jewish community that came in instead, some of those feelings would be much the same. Imagine seeing a bunch of Hebrew on those signs instead of Mandarin or Cantonese. That written language looks just as foreign to an outsider as Mandarin characters.

On the other hand, I also understand the desire to have a business cater to a specific demographic, be they a hobbyist or someone yearning for authentic cuisine. Why bother advertising to someone who most likely will never think about stepping inside your shop? Apart from Quebec, there are no laws in Canada requiring shops to have a certain language on their storefronts. If someone really wants to get anal, however, there are packaging rules in Canada that actually have language rules that are heavily enforced before they can be sold here.

I genuinely don't care what language is on the sign out front. As I've stated previously in this thread, I'll go out of my way to find these little shops and try to interact with the shop keepers to the best of my ability. Sometimes I'll basically get thrown out of the store but other times they also do their best to make me feel comfortable even if they speak no more than five words of English. Foreign races and cultures don't bother me. My family has gone through a lot of racism and anti-semitism over the past half century that it's silly to even think of extending it to someone else (half my family was killed during the Holocaust, another large chunk was imprisoned in internment camps until the end of the war... just as an aside). I could care less if you're Chinese, Brazilian, Russian... whatever. As long as you're polite to me, you're good in my books.

[twdm]

Originally Posted by El Bastardo

I think the problem stems from people being upset at this one group who chooses to willingly live like foreigners, segregating themselves from everyone else and maintaining a language that is not spoken widely by the existing population.

So first nations can do it but no one else can? Can we ban native language on their signs and force them to chant in english because I don't understand it?

Originally Posted by MindBomber

I volunteer at Abbotsford Regional Hospital, and personally, have never had that issue.

The scenarios you've given are very different and you've again resorted to ad homs, so I won't take the time to address you further.

You are a volunteer, not someone who interacts with patients on a daily basis and has to make sure they understand their therapy. It's not difficult being a chaperon and guiding people to cafeteria. Cavemen learned to point and grunt thousands of years ago. Try explaining diseases to people who have zero knowledge of the english language and deal solely with others who are punjabi speaking.

I find it ironic how you were championing native rights in the idle no more thread, yet have no troubles trampling rights of other races. It's one of the reasons I don't take idle no more movement seriously because their society is completely self-serving and doesn't care about other Canadians.

[MindBomber]

Originally Posted by $_$

Please understand that not all my posts are directed at you. If I am not directly responding to your comments, they are usually directed at the forum at large.

Who here demonstrates those traits of xenophobic then?

Originally Posted by pyros1

Freedom of speech in Canada is protected as a "fundamental freedom" by Section 2 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

A Right Not Exercised is a Right Lost

Next your going to tell me I can't speak any language I want in front of people who don't understand it, or because it's not an official language. No thank you.

Freedom of speech is protected, but not an absolute right.

Current exemptions exist, and more may be added at any time.

Your assumption is incorrect.

Originally Posted by twdm

You are a volunteer, not someone who interacts with patients on a daily basis and has to make sure they understand their therapy. It's not difficult being a chaperon and guiding people to cafeteria. Cavemen learned to point and grunt thousands of years ago. Try explaining diseases to people who have zero knowledge of the english language and deal solely with others who are punjabi speaking.

I find it ironic how you were championing native rights in the idle no more thread, yet have no troubles trampling rights of other races. It's one of the reasons I don't take idle no more movement seriously because their society is completely self-serving and doesn't care about other Canadians.

I work with patients, and no, I'm not personally involved with cases.

I'm surrounded with them though, and friends with the nurses, there's seldom trouble finding a punjabi speaker to translate.

You've gone way off topic.

Not all people in Canada will speak an official language, but that's totally cool. We'll do our best to accommodate.

Idle No More is far removed and very different.

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

Originally Posted by MindBomber

Logic and reason is how my brain works, I realize that's not how others see things though.

that is a blessing and a curse, for deep down inside we are still animals. Hence why catering to the feelings of the masses is important. No logic is needed.

Well, you can say, the logic behind it is so you don't piss the masses off and get yourself slaughtered. Isn't that logic enough?


The problem with human logic is, you work backwards from a goal, you can make up an infinite different amount of logical sound paths that reach that conclusion. We're sly creatures. Logic can act like hindsight, which is always 20/20.

If I were to clone you, and your clone took the opposing position, he would have very logical backing as well.

Hence sometimes the logic doesn't matter. There are many truths in any scenario. But what matters most in this scenario is what the masses will do if you piss them off. We are all living in the same system. You can't cut the leg off without almost bleeding to death if you get what i mean.

[pyros1]

Originally Posted by MindBomber

Who here demonstrates those traits of xenophobic then?



Freedom of speech is protected, but not an absolute right.

Current exemptions exist, and more may be added at any time.

Your assumption is incorrect.

Exemptions exist when they create a harm. Such as yelling Fire in a crowded theatre which will cause a rampage and injure more people. I don't see who I'm hurting by having a Chinese sign up.

Your assumption that more may be added at any time is incorrect.
It has to go through a comprehensive legislative process which will go through much discussion and lots of communication between you and your representative to parliament.
You don't see words or actions being banned suddenly.

Under YOUR assumptions, your life can be forfeit if the government deems so? Canadian Charter states "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice."
But guess what that's not absolute. So you might as well jump off a bridge now. Save the government some time of making it illegal to life, liberty, and security of your person.

If a law is unjust you fight it. You don't go oh well go home sleep wake up eat shit work sleep again.

[$_$]

Originally Posted by El Bastardo

I think the problem stems from people being upset at this one group who chooses to willingly live like foreigners, segregating themselves from everyone else and maintaining a language that is not spoken widely by the existing population.

I agree. I can totally understand that it's upsetting. If I was in their position I would probably feel the same way. But being upset about something and trying force people to conform to your way of thinking are very different things. If I was in their position I would learn to adapt, not try to bring it to government and infringe their rights and freedom.

Originally Posted by stewie

congrats, i guess you've discovered that some people here are xenophobic!!! now you can sleep peacefully tonight.

My only goal is that I want to people to see and present themselves for who they really are, and not who they pretend or try to be.

Everyone wants to be an idealist: I'm a realist.

Originally Posted by MindBomber

Who here demonstrates those traits of xenophobic then?

I don't feel it is beneficial for the discussion for me to sit here and point fingers. That is completely futile. Those who read the posts will know to whom I am referring to, and sometimes it's directed to the community as a whole based on my own personal experiences. I found that a lot of people were displaying traits of xenophobia as is described were pretty adamant that they weren't, or were unwilling to admit that they were.

It made me question whether or not they really understood what it meant. The only reason I bolded and highlighted sections was to show that it's pretty evident. They could read it, and self reflect.

Or they could read it and let it completely fly over their head and continue to deny it based on "personal reasons" ie. well that's not exactly how I think. Is it really so bad that I want some English on those signs? I'm only really concerned about safety. I am more inclined that most for this provision will continue to think in the latter.

You can take from them what you want, or nothing at all. I am simply providing an alternative point of view.

[RFlush]

Originally Posted by Ulic Qel-Droma

one more thing skinnypupp. of all people i would expect you to understand this.

you're a white guy, living in asia, moving where you please, doing what you please. and because why? because you have the money to do so.

of all the nay sayers, you should understand the importance of money, and the power it holds.

of ALL people, you are the one that should be thanking my post. you are a living example. you got the money, so you can fuck off to another country as you please, and live your life, the way you want it, THERE.
BECAUSE YOU FIGURED OUT HOW TO MAKE MONEY AND GET THE POWER TO DO IT.

they are doing the same. everyone wants to do the same. the ppl bitching about it, are the ones that can't do anything about it. you should know that.


i also remember you stating that after all these years living there, that maybe you should put in the effort to learn the language. in a joking manner of course.
but of course, you don't. because you don't need to. you're comfortable with how you operate.

much like the chinese people here. don't be a hypocrite man. if anything, you're in the same group and mentality.

ROFL getting Skinnypupp to understand anything outside his bubble is useless. The guy is retarded and thinks that only 1% of Shop signs in HK are only in Chinese. The guy knows nothing and here is a prime example

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=hong+kong&hl=en&ll=22.306825,114.170544&spn=0.013876,0.026157&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=48.287373,107.138672&t=m&hnear=Hong+Kong&z=16&layer=c&cbll=22.306711,114.170507&panoid=PS6lEMxUfTPD0P7AsoNitQ&cbp=12,26.28,,0,7.83
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Tai+Kok+Tsui,+Hong+Kong&hl=en&ll=22.321356,114.159805&spn=0.006977,0.013078&sll=22.306706,114.170501&sspn=0.013956,0.026157&oq=tai+&hnear=Tai+Kok+Tsui,+Hong+Kong&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=22.322332,114.160356&panoid=bAU2XTQsS9qsx4cBoMxRWw&cbp=12,263.79,,0,1.55

[twdm]

Originally Posted by MindBomber

I'm surrounded with them though, and friends with the nurses, there's seldom trouble finding a punjabi speaker to translate.

Well there you go. You know why they can survive there? because 30-40% of the population is south asian. Do you know why they chose to move there? Because housing is cheap and there is a large punjabi population so they can go about their business without knowing a word of english.

So it's ok for none of them to know english but you have a problem with Richmond?

Originally Posted by MindBomber

Idle No More is far removed and very different.

It comes down to natives feeling ripped off from old treaties and seeing their cultures and values eroded by westerns beliefs. How ironic it is to see you spouting for the implementation of cultures and values that destroyed your people's own culture and values.

[MindBomber]

Originally Posted by twdm

Well there you go. You know why they can survive there? because 30-40% of the population is south asian. Do you know why they chose to move there? Because housing is cheap and there is a large punjabi population so they can go about their business without knowing a word of english.

So it's ok for none of them to know english but you have a problem with Richmond?

It would be difficult to go about your day speaking only Punjabi in Abbotsford, there's a number of businesses that have primarily English speaking employees. The hospital keeps a database of various language speakers, so someone from a different department can easily be called over to help. A little different than the average place.

To address your question; I've not met many South Asian Canadians lacking functional English skills, so your erroneous statement that none have them negates that portion of the question entirely, and I've never taken issue with Chinese Canadians in Richmond lacking functional English skills. It takes time to learn a language, I have no interest or intent to discriminate against immigrants.

It comes down to natives feeling ripped off from old treaties and seeing their cultures and values eroded by westerns beliefs. How ironic it is to see you spouting for the implementation of cultures and values that destroyed your people's own culture and values.

No, First Nations and current immigrant experiences are completely incomparable. First Nations culture was eradicated by Federal Policy; I've already noted, I'm opposed to the destruction or damaging of Chinese Canadian culture. This is not the place to discuss Idle No More, I won't address further questions or statements regarding it.

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by RFlush

ROFL getting Skinnypupp to understand anything outside his bubble is useless. The guy is retarded and thinks that only 1% of Shop signs in HK are only in Chinese. The guy knows nothing and here is a prime example

hong kong - Google Maps

Tai Kok Tsui, Hong Kong - Google Maps

What's funny is that you pointed out a tiny section of a street with no English on their signs... go down one block and they all have English... So basically you just proved my point for me, thanks!

Obviously "99%" was hyperbolic. It might be 95% or maybe 92%. Looking at Hong Kong as a whole, it's probably around there somewhere.

I'm not sure what "bubble" you think I live in either, you have no idea who I am, where I live, or where I spend my time on a day to day basis. It might not be buying planks of wood at a hardware store in Jordan, but that doesn't mean I am in some sort of "bubble" as you put it.

In my 10 years here on RS, this is probably the biggest fail attempt at attacking me.. and there used to be lots of those.. so congratulations

[RFlush]

Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp

What's funny is that you pointed out a tiny section of a street with no English on their signs... go down one block and they all have English... So basically you just proved my point for me, thanks!

Obviously "99%" was hyperbolic. It might be 95% or maybe 92%. Looking at Hong Kong as a whole, it's probably around there somewhere.

I'm not sure what "bubble" you think I live in either, you have no idea who I am, where I live, or where I spend my time on a day to day basis. It might not be buying planks of wood at a hardware store in Jordan, but that doesn't mean I am in some sort of "bubble" as you put it.

In my 10 years here on RS, this is probably the biggest fail attempt at attacking me..and there used to be lots of those..so congratulations

Rofl going from 99% to 92%. Don't make baseless claims with no evidence. You should try to venture out in HK, say in sham shui po, kwai fong, western NT or Northern NT.Your 92% will continue to drop.Soon you will be saying all menus are in English too!
Fyi, I can't read Chinese as well and I'm sure neither can you.But I still try to visit areas out of my comfort zone.

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by RFlush

Rofl going from 99% to 92%. Don't make baseless claims with no evidence. You should try to venture out in HK, say in sham shui po, kwai fong, western NT or Northern NT.Your 92% will continue to drop.Soon you will be saying all menus are in English too!
Fyi, I can't read Chinese as well and I'm sure neither can you.But I still try to visit areas out of my comfort zone.

OK keep making assumptions then. I am not going to argue this anymore, because it's retarded and has nothing to do with the topic. The funny thing is, you pretty much listed the areas I hang out (mostly).. so again thanks for proving my point for me

So. Much. Fail.

And yes of course a "99%" stat is hyperbolic and baseless. Do I need to explain the point of exaggeration, and that I really meant "the vast majority" and "everything everyone sees in day to day life" as it pertains to the topic? The main point being, if most of the signs (maybe not the hardware stores in Jordan) have English in Hong Kong, there's no reason why they shouldn't do the same in Richmond. If HK businesses are doing so to serve the 5% (or whatever the fuck it is) non Chinese population, why can't Richmond businesses serve the 60% non chinese population? That is the point. Everyone got it but you, because you saw some reason to launch an idiotic attack at me.

And PS my chinese reading is coming along OK at least in terms of reading menus

[Tim Budong]

I still don't see the reasoning on why segregation of certain cultures is that bad, its not like the people were forced to live there.

Times have changed, all this bullshit from a select few angry old fashioned white people making stupid claims will get eaten alive because the world is moving forward. Its not like Vancouver in general is any different.

You can't force a race of people to change their ways of doing things because angry white man say so. This isn't the 1800's

If a certain race or culture have money and can develop or re-develop an area, I don't see a problem.

[dinosaur]

Originally Posted by $_$

I don't feel it is beneficial for the discussion for me to sit here and point fingers.

Let's be honest you're calling me xenophobic....still don't understand why.

Never EVER have I indicated that I have a problem with immigration, change chinese culture, Canadian culture, language, etc.

I don't give a shit about these signs. I go to Richmond about as much as I go to Coquitlam....which is rarely. I don't avoid it because because I am scared....or racist...or some other random theory that you have. I just simply don't have a reason. I use to! I worked in Richmond for 2 years and when I lived in Delta I was in Richmond a fair bit.

All I simply did in the thread use use ONE example as to why these petitioners may have a valid argument. I don't want to strip away identities, I don't want to take away your language or religion, I simply point to one valid I thought they had.

You don't know me. Don't sit behind your computer screen pretending you do and type out the easiest argument to any debated by calling me xenophobic and racist. No matter how many times you say it, it isn't true.

Furthermore, I don't think anyone you are arguing with is racist or xenophobic either. I have met a few IRL, had private conversations, and discussed a whole host of issues completely un-related to RS. They are good people.

You and others like you (using the word "xenophobic" like you get paid per use) have turned this discussion into a pathetic diatribe. You should note that NOT ONE have you been called anything....where as some of us who have expressed an argument that you don't agree with have been.

[Gridlock]

Question:

What economic/business benefit is there to having a Chinese(or any other non-english language) only sign?

**Please answer as clearly as possible, and as short as possible. Please make your answer stay within the economic/business realm. Ultimately, a business has as a primary purpose to create product and sell for profit. Please demonstrate how Chinese only signs assist in the generation of extra revenue and/or profit.

It was pointed out that this has been addressed, so I'll advance the plot. The answer to this question is the same thing now being thrown about in this thread: xenophobia. Don't argue something that your case is strongly supporting.

[MarkyMark]

I think a lot of people in this thread don't know what a real racist looks like. News flash, not agreeing with how a certain ethnicity does something does not make you racist or a xenophobe.
Posted via RS Mobile

[drunkrussian]

Some of the people here being sensitive about a part of a sign having English and accusing that of being racism are the same people making all these passive aggresive 'fuck china' threads
Posted via RS Mobile

[GLOW]

Originally Posted by dinosaur

I also brought up the concern for safety and emergency response people being able to find the business in a reasonable time.

you know 1 time i was at a chinese restaurant for dinner and an older guy next to us had some episode and needed medical help.

ambulance came for him, and it was dark and rainy...i'm sure they told them the street and building number and have GPS and all, and someone waited outside,

but it probably didn't hurt that the place had english and chinese lettering b/c if it was me i would have given the address and described the location as "restaurant with the yellow tarp that read "xxx chinese food restaurant"