Education and Debt: Scandinavian vs. United States Models

[Sid Vicious]

hopefully this will spark some interesting debates. i am kinda on the fence as i dont believe tuition should be 100% free, but the pic raises some good points

and americas justice system is beyond fucked

[snails]

when i injured my shoulder last year i was out of work for about 3 months

I had alot of free time so i watched alot of documentaries and researched them afterwards, a few of them were about education in the states, for-profit, public, all that stuff. I was amazed by how many people spent 10's of thousands of dollars for an education that got them no further in life, they are selling education.. hence "for profit"

eventually I got into documentaries about loans, student loans, visas and stuff like that and I was further disgusted by the efforts made to put these students in the hole so companies could feed of the interest, and debt these people would get themselves into, there was one point that got to me

a non working student can obtain a visa/mastercard EASIER than a working person with fewer debts, seems the whole system over there is to bury their people to then live off their debts

[noventa]

I think the USA has it right. Americans are smart enough to realize that their population academic abilities are normally distributed.

[Ludepower]

errrmerica..fuck yeaa!

[tool001]

capitalism


... isn't Canada heading that way also..

[gars]

Originally Posted by tool001

capitalism


... isn't Canada heading that way also..

Our education is still affordable enough. I met a girl in Portland who was lucky enough to have dual citizenship, and that she was moving to Vancouver in 6 months to attend UBC. She told me it was more expensive to attend a community college in Portland than it was to attend UBC. It's kind of a no-brainer.

[GabAlmighty]

Ever tried becoming a pilot? Shit's expensive and I get to pay for it allllll by myself, mostly.

[westopher]

The price of education is a huge factor in the increasing wealth gap in North american (more so american than canadian, but still here as well) combined with a social pressure to "have it all" by a certain age. Kids coming from poor to middle class homes are feeling the increased pressure to keep up appearances and it makes them more likely to go straight into a decent paying job so they can keep up with what the internet tells them they need. Its easy for an 18 year old kid to come out of school and think "oh fuck, making 3k a month can buy me lots of shit" because the understanding of the adult expenses haven't hit yet, like a trip to the dentist for example. While the richer kids can have all these luxuries without needing a job to pay for it, which allows them to hop into whichever university program their parents pay them to take. Working a full time job to pay for school or ending up in drastic student loan debt prevents the luxury of time for people to develop their potential and discover a path to their success, and forces them into the quickest path of being able to pay the bills they have racked up.

If school was free, or much more publicly funded, it would allow some of the people that were born in to poverty, or just above, to claw their way out, at a much more reasonable pace. Of course restrictions I imagine would be in place, to make sure students weren't wasting taxpayer money and time, but as it stands, only the rich and INCREDIBLY driven can make their way through the highest quality education institutions. We all know someone who is incredibly intelligent, and living much below their potential from a career perspective because instead of being able to go to school, they had to climb out of a life that they were born into by getting a the first 12 dollar an hour job to be able to afford to eat and pay rent. That being said, materialism is as much of a perpetrator of this problem, but clearly its easier to change the direction of spending, than changing the ailment of basically all of industrialized societies.

[twitchyzero]

ive spoken to ppl that attended professional programs in the nordic countries

goddamn if only I knew how to speak their language and have their citizenship...i'd move there in a heartbeat as a student.

I mean even if you are the average taxpayer there...how bad can it really be compared to Canada. IIRC it's similar % to those in the higher incom tax bracket of Canadians.

[punkwax]

It's called diversity.

Not everywhere is the same. You prefer another country's way of life? Move there. 95%+ of your ancestors did.

[4444]

It is from an occupy Wall Street site, so take that info gram with a grain of salt, not saying its not true from a high level, but we don't know everything about how it's paid for in the Scandinavian countries

[StylinRed]

Originally Posted by 4444

It is from an occupy Wall Street site, so take that info gram with a grain of salt, not saying its not true from a high level, but we don't know everything about how it's paid for in the Scandinavian countries

"hur hur hurr dat dere some commie talk! aint no kneed to listen to propganda! fuck yea amerika!!!"

[Sid Vicious]

Originally Posted by Nodnarb

It's called diversity.

Not everywhere is the same. You prefer another country's way of life? Move there. 95%+ of your ancestors did.

lol, considering america is easily the most influential country in the world it doesnt matter where you move to - you will be affected in some way

Originally Posted by 4444

It is from an occupy Wall Street site, so take that info gram with a grain of salt, not saying its not true from a high level, but we don't know everything about how it's paid for in the Scandinavian countries

obviously it's not an objective picture, but its just information to consider. no country/political system is perfect

[meowjinboo]

Originally Posted by westopher

The price of education is a huge factor in the increasing wealth gap in North american (more so american than canadian, but still here as well) combined with a social pressure to "have it all" by a certain age. Kids coming from poor to middle class homes are feeling the increased pressure to keep up appearances and it makes them more likely to go straight into a decent paying job so they can keep up with what the internet tells them they need. Its easy for an 18 year old kid to come out of school and think "oh fuck, making 3k a month can buy me lots of shit" because the understanding of the adult expenses haven't hit yet, like a trip to the dentist for example. While the richer kids can have all these luxuries without needing a job to pay for it, which allows them to hop into whichever university program their parents pay them to take. Working a full time job to pay for school or ending up in drastic student loan debt prevents the luxury of time for people to develop their potential and discover a path to their success, and forces them into the quickest path of being able to pay the bills they have racked up.

If school was free, or much more publicly funded, it would allow some of the people that were born in to poverty, or just above, to claw their way out, at a much more reasonable pace. Of course restrictions I imagine would be in place, to make sure students weren't wasting taxpayer money and time, but as it stands, only the rich and INCREDIBLY driven can make their way through the highest quality education institutions. We all know someone who is incredibly intelligent, and living much below their potential from a career perspective because instead of being able to go to school, they had to climb out of a life that they were born into by getting a the first 12 dollar an hour job to be able to afford to eat and pay rent. That being said, materialism is as much of a perpetrator of this problem, but clearly its easier to change the direction of spending, than changing the ailment of basically all of industrialized societies.

one of the worst mistakes I ever made was hanging out with people who had alot of money and letting them influence me.

[PiuYi]

Originally Posted by snails

eventually I got into documentaries about loans, student loans, visas and stuff like that and I was further disgusted by the efforts made to put these students in the hole so companies could feed of the interest, and debt these people would get themselves into, there was one point that got to me

a non working student can obtain a visa/mastercard EASIER than a working person with fewer debts, seems the whole system over there is to bury their people to then live off their debts

modern day slavery is what it is... the indebted lower class work tirelessly just to stay afloat, while the upper class get richer from self-perpetuating wealth

[bananana]

Nordic countries are able to do this because, and ONLY because of extremely high taxes (IIRC an M3 would be close to $300,000USD) AND because they happen to be oil rich nations. Unfortunately this is not the case for most of the world and therefore this is not a model that could be applied to most countries. BTW, the University of Oslo is free to any student regardless of citizenship.

Germany also provides free education to a doctorate level, but only students with high GPA a strong aptitude in their particular areas of focus would be able to take advantage of this education system.

[StylinRed]

there are a lot of european universities which also offer the free education to international students, as long as you can get in


as for income/sales/corporate tax rates check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates

[bananana]

Originally Posted by StylinRed

as for income/sales/corporate tax rates check out List of countries by tax rates - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't understand where your fail comes from. I failed one of your posts due to your typical verbal diarrhea and it's lack of relevancy to the thread. A massive proportion of GDP in Nordic countries from from oil. Their system is absolutely fantastic, but as I said before, it would not be possible to replicate in other countries without such resources.

Taxes in general are EXTREMELY high in Nordic countries. This is a fact - Your Wikipedia source only lists 3 specific variations of the tax system. A massive VAT and other luxury taxes are typical of the entire region and are used to support this system.

From Wikipedia:

"Today, Norway ranks as the second wealthiest country in the world in monetary value, with the largest capital reserve per capita of any nation... Continued oil and gas exports coupled with a healthy economy and substantial accumulated wealth lead to a conclusion that Norway will remain among the richest countries in the world in the foreseeable future."

"Export revenues from oil and gas have risen to almost 50% of total exports and constitute more than 20% of the GDP.[81] Norway is the fifth largest oil exporter and third largest gas exporter in the world, but it is not a member of OPEC. To reduce overheating in the economy from oil revenues and minimize uncertainty from volatility in oil price, and to provide a cushion for the effect of aging of the population, the Norwegian government in 1995 established the sovereign wealth fund ("Government Pension Fund — Global"), which would be funded with oil revenues, including taxes, dividends, sales revenues and licensing fees."

[westopher]

Originally Posted by Nodnarb

It's called diversity.

Not everywhere is the same. You prefer another country's way of life? Move there. 95%+ of your ancestors did.

Thats a pretty passive mentality to have. Theres nothing saying you shouldn't try to improve the country you live in, and you can certainly be happy with the country you live in and not be happy with every aspect of it.

[StylinRed]

Originally Posted by bananana

I don't understand where your fail comes from. I failed one of your posts due to your typical verbal diarrhea and it's lack of relevancy to the thread.

welcome to RS... & if you fail to see the relevance that's your problem

"extremely high taxes" which isn't true at least from a Canadian perspective its higher in some lower in others higher in sales but lower in income, they're comparable; oil rich, which isn't true except for Denmark and Norway

[Gridlock]

We'll get to the whole free education bit shortly, but here's something to consider.

Debt load on students.

Let's call it here and now. The "Corporations are people" crowd stateside have maybe not sold the entire country to corporations in the US, but their voice is heard by a majority of government. There is less capitalism in the states, and its now corporatism. How much of which is open for debate.

I believe there is a desire to have a workforce that is indebted to the company for which they work. That employee stays loyal, and works hard, because he needs: to make his phat ass student loan payments that can't be discharged in bankruptcy(aka it follows you like herpes) needs his medical insurance in case he gets a $50k paper cut and so on.

Quite easily, the US could make a ton of improvements for everyone. And it would probably work out. BUUUUT.

The Democrats under Obama took a republican model of health care, applied it nationally to create a system where the private insurance companies are handed 10's of 1000's of new clients at market rates, and has been called everything from a terrorist to a muslim to a socialist to my favorite 'un-american' for 5 years since.

Yes, there is a tax payer subsidized component.

My point is, asking for people to change the education model to a very socialist system is a stretch in the largest amount, especially when the US has so much work to do on the front of for profit health care. It's not in the American DNA to have a socialist system. They want the bare minimum to be contributed to anyone that isn't them, until they need it, then they want it all. That's everyone from the Obamaphone woman to bankers, unfortunately.

[Gridlock]

And notice how its young people in their 20's that want this great socialist utopia? They have nothing, so lets have "them" pay for it. Working out wunderbar in Europe right now. Yay socialism!

Once you make some money in your 30's, we welcome them to the club...as Conservatives.

[meowjinboo]

that's because when people have money they view those that don't have it as subhumans.

Just let the plebs fight with themselves. All the anti-union speak on this forum from people who think they have made it attacking people who make +/- 20% then their fellow man.

[Sid Vicious]

Originally Posted by Gridlock

And notice how its young people in their 20' that want this great socialist utopia? They have nothing, so lets have "them" pay for it. Working out wunderbar in Europe right now. Yay socialism!

Once you make some money in your 30's, we welcome them to the club...as Conservatives.

This post is going full retard. You dont have to be of any political ideology to see how fucked up some aspects of the us govt is. For example a
mere 5% cut in military spending is an extra 35 billion to play with.
Usa has one of the highest incarceration per capita rates in the world
Posted via RS Mobile

[BillyBishop]

A few people have brought up the topic of higher taxation in the Nordic countries compared to other western states. If anyone is the least bit interested in that, I highly suggest reading this report:

http://www.policyalternatives.ca/sit...f_Taxation.pdf
It's not terribly long.

By exploring the relation between taxation and different measures of social well-being, some interesting conclusions are drawn.
This report came after the Harper government's announcement of the 2006 Budget in its first year when GST and income tax cuts were announced, setting the trend for continued cuts in the years following.


We've heard plenty about the successful education systems in the Nordic region in the news and arguments assessing the feasibility of implementing it on some scale in Canada. While it does sound promising, I can't ignore the hurdles faced when copying a system from one country and transplanting it into another, especially a system that was developed in social setting far different from ours. Unfortunately not quite as simple as USB plug-and-play.