Education and Debt: Scandinavian vs. United States Models

[bing]

I do agree with many of the things highlighted on the OPs poster but I don't entirely agree that post-secondary should be fully funded as the government is broke. If we had the money fine, but we don't and every province posted a deficit in 2012. While the government subsidizes my education, asking me to pay my share of the tuition (around $5500/yr for 10 courses) is more than fair, actually it is a bargain. My cousins who studied in the States (6 of them) paid 40-50k PER YEAR for their undergrad degrees not including residency costs. Now, that is an insane amount and I don't know how the average person could afford that without serious loans and taking on massive debt.

I'd also like to point out that it may be easier for the Nordic countries to provide a higher quality of life as they have a smaller population (combined they have a population of 25 million. Canada alone has 34 million+ spread over a large land mass), high taxation, and a government that's way too big. While the Nordic countries are to be applauded for many things like high rankings on certain quality of life indices, I find way too many people blindly praise them and thinking it could be adapted to our own country.

From the The Economist magazine:

They still have plenty of problems. Their governments remain too big and their private sectors too small. Their taxes are still too high and some of their benefits too generous. The Danish system of flexicurity puts too much emphasis on security and not enough on flexibility. Norway’s oil boom is threatening to destroy the work ethic. It is a bad sign that over 6% of the workforce are on sick leave at any one time and around 9% of the working-age population live on disability pensions.

http://www.economist.com/news/specia...d-secret-their

The new Nordic model is not perfect. Public spending as a proportion of GDP in these countries is still higher than this newspaper would like, or indeed than will be sustainable. Their levels of taxation still encourage entrepreneurs to move abroad: London is full of clever young Swedes. Too many people—especially immigrants—live off benefits.

http://www.economist.com/news/leader...ext-supermodel

[Ronin]

Originally Posted by GabAlmighty

Ever tried becoming a pilot? Shit's expensive and I get to pay for it allllll by myself, mostly.

I thought about it. It's about $100k for a commercial pilot course.

[SkinnyPupp]

BTW the simple answer to the image:

Population of the 4 nordic countries listed: 25,366,000

Population of USA: 313,914,040

And as far as tax goes, you can compare... obviously it works in the other direction, due to the lower population...

In USA, making $70K a year, you pay around 25%

In Denmark you pay 8% no matter how much you make.

Then on top of that, you pay 28% (after the 8%) municipal tax, plus 15% state tax, plus another 8% health tax

Then you have VAT. Think GST sucks? How would you like to pay 25% VAT? Fun times.

So if you make $70K a year, the actual spendable amount is actually more like half that

[Gridlock]

Originally Posted by Sid Vicious

This post is going full retard. You dont have to be of any political ideology to see how fucked up some aspects of the us govt is. For example a
mere 5% cut in military spending is an extra 35 billion to play with.
Usa has one of the highest incarceration per capita rates in the world
Posted via RS Mobile

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong. I think Americans have some fucked up priorities.

So many in fact, it would be a daunting task to fix a damned thing. Elaborate? Your prison system is fucked. Three strikes is newspaper fodder with some very real effects on neighborhoods. Health care is still fucked. A better fucked than 2007, but fucked none the less. The banking system is doing great though.

I'm simply saying that take notice of the people that are fighting for what changes. Young people, the primary component to the Occupy movement are the ones that will talk about free education. Why? Because that is the primary issue that this group of people is facing.

Health care to me is a bigger deal. But to people in their 20's, its not-because they should, as a group, be in good health overall.

So you have a group of people that is telling you how wrong something is, but its very self serving.

And its not that I disagree with them, entirely. I don't support free post secondary, but I certainly think that making the requirements for it so ubiquitous and its costs so prohibitive is a bad thing for a generation to start their lives with.

But make no mistake, once Mr. Dreadlocks gets his law degree, he may not be so on the edge of social change, and maybe he doesn't work for legal aid. And once he makes some coin, his attitude changes a little bit. And 40 years later he's using a system that he once fought hard against.

That's the point of my post. These people don't turn 60 with their ideologies fully intact. Remember: Our world was built out of an era of mass protests against war and drafts and really a decade of change. The women that burned their bras in the 60's aren't burning them today. They are wearing them. The men that dodged the draft became president.

So, half retard

[noventa]

Originally Posted by Sid Vicious

This post is going full retard. You dont have to be of any political ideology to see how fucked up some aspects of the us govt is. For example a
mere 5% cut in military spending is an extra 35 billion to play with.
Usa has one of the highest incarceration per capita rates in the world
Posted via RS Mobile

Military budget spendings have nothing to do with education.

[noventa]

An listen to this crap.
"In addition to not having any tuition fees, all students receive a monthly grant to help cover their living expenses"

Whats wrong with this stupid ass statement ? (probably thought up by some hippy ass freeloader).

Give me this, give me that. shut the fuck up and work for it yourself. I

Listen, if you are too fucking stupid to realize that you went to some lame ass college and took some stupid ass business admin or marketing something bullshit made up crap that is only applicable to one specific job, then you're retarded.

[Sid Vicious]

Originally Posted by noventa

Military budget spendings have nothing to do with education.

Originally Posted by noventa

An listen to this crap.
"In addition to not having any tuition fees, all students receive a monthly grant to help cover their living expenses"

Whats wrong with this stupid ass statement ? (probably thought up by some hippy ass freeloader).

Give me this, give me that. shut the fuck up and work for it yourself. I

Listen, if you are too fucking stupid to realize that you went to some lame ass college and took some stupid ass business admin or marketing something bullshit made up crap that is only applicable to one specific job, then you're retarded.

Like i said i dont agree with everything the picture states. i say the model we have here in canada is perfect -just a bit cheaper. and are you retarded? military spending is part of gov't spending much like education

[falcon]

Originally Posted by GabAlmighty

Ever tried becoming a pilot? Shit's expensive and I get to pay for it allllll by myself, mostly.

I'm 15 hours into my PPL and $4000 poorer. Only $75,000 to go until I have 200 hours and all the endorsements needed to get work as a commercial pilot. All within a year and a half of time VS. 4 years college decided by the same amount.

Gab, where do you fly out of?

[falcon]

Originally Posted by bananana

Nordic countries are able to do this because, and ONLY because of extremely high taxes (IIRC an M3 would be close to $300,000USD) AND because they happen to be oil rich nations. Unfortunately this is not the case for most of the world and therefore this is not a model that could be applied to most countries. BTW, the University of Oslo is free to any student regardless of citizenship.

Germany also provides free education to a doctorate level, but only students with high GPA a strong aptitude in their particular areas of focus would be able to take advantage of this education system.

Norway has oil. Finland, Sweden, Demark do not.

[Hondaracer]

Also in Finland (the only country I can speak of from being there and having relatives there) education may be "free" but the tests you have to take in order to get into the programs are extremely difficult, most C+/B students here can get into nursing etc easily at a kwantlen, Douglas etc there I knew a few people who were exceptional students who were writing entry exams for the second and third times to get into finance and another business specialty I can't recall now

These countries you still need the ability to learn and thrive in your field it isn't like the states where you just dump 70k as a C student and walk away 4
Years later with a degree in communication.

Also in Finland at least a tonne of people are "career students" they've been going to school for 5-8 years because once they are completed their bachelors they do not have a job to go into so they just stick around and get a masters or another degree

It's not really as cut and dry as the image would have you belive but obviously the American system is broken completely. A vast number of students in US schools have no business being there and would be far better in a trade or similar line of work then getting a degree which is flooded the work force
Posted via RS Mobile

[falcon]

Originally Posted by noventa

An listen to this crap.
"In addition to not having any tuition fees, all students receive a monthly grant to help cover their living expenses"

Whats wrong with this stupid ass statement ? (probably thought up by some hippy ass freeloader).

Give me this, give me that. shut the fuck up and work for it yourself. I

Listen, if you are too fucking stupid to realize that you went to some lame ass college and took some stupid ass business admin or marketing something bullshit made up crap that is only applicable to one specific job, then you're retarded.

Sounds like your reading comprehension could use some work. Perhaps a University education would help? The writer is stating facts that this does in fact happen in Nordic countries.

[iEatClams]

Originally Posted by Gridlock

And notice how its young people in their 20's that want this great socialist utopia? They have nothing, so lets have "them" pay for it. Working out wunderbar in Europe right now. Yay socialism!

Once you make some money in your 30's, we welcome them to the club...as Conservatives.

Not entirely true, my friends and I are a product of this system. We came from really really poor families, and used the assistance of welfare, student loans, grants, and other government funded programs to help us. We grew up being "left-wing" and are still pretty left wing today and don't mind paying more taxes to support the same programs that help us move into the middle class or one of the higher tax brackets. I can attest that the cuts to many of these programs will COST us more in the future due to unemployment, underemployment, crime, etc. etc.

However the one thing we can all agree on is that government is NOT efficient at all. Unions are a part of the problem as they decrease efficiency and productivity, it's true many of the workers are unproductive or "lazy" employees can't get fired. (however they do protect wages and work standards which is one of the benefits).

Govs also dont subsidize the proper programs and cut funding to things IMO are really important. and the whole if you dont spend it it will be taken away from your budget which doesnt really reward the programs that are efficient as well.

[4444]

Originally Posted by StylinRed

"hur hur hurr dat dere some commie talk! aint no kneed to listen to propganda! fuck yea amerika!!!"

Wow, I'm not sure how you ended up with a reaction like that, I was merely pointing out that this an info graphic that, while probably containing a lot of truth AND making a real, true point - it will likely lean one way

I was not making any kind of pro/anti commentary... Some people are so quick to be little bitches - wonder how u'll ever manage in the real world

[4444]

Originally Posted by StylinRed

welcome to RS... & if you fail to see the relevance that's your problem

"extremely high taxes" which isn't true at least from a Canadian perspective its higher in some lower in others higher in sales but lower in income, they're comparable; oil rich, which isn't true except for Denmark and Norway

Norway has built a huge sovereign wealth fund from their oil & gas, something like $600bn, yet another retarded post

Actually, I can barely make sense of your poorly written post, with semi colons and commas spattered around like an epileptic ape

[noventa]

Originally Posted by Sid Vicious

Like i said i dont agree with everything the picture states. i say the model we have here in canada is perfect -just a bit cheaper. and are you retarded? military spending is part of gov't spending much like education

no I'm not retarded. I understand that military and education are both funded by the same source. But just because military spending are 20 times more then education doesn't mean that you could cut a bit of military to get a more education. Thats what I mean by retarded.

[Yodamaster]

The cost of schooling is why I'm not in class right now, for jobs that aren't guaranteed afterwards, the money you spend on school is unfair.

Might sound like I'm expecting something for nothing, but nothing comes out of a student that doesn't get to be a student.

[m!chael]

Percentage of GDP collected as taxes in 2011 (OECD Stats - Revenue Statistics - Comparative tables)

Denmark (Country has vast oil reserves) - 48.1%
Sweden - 44.5%
Finland - 43.4%
Norway (Country has vast oil reserves) - 43.2%
Iceland - 36.0%
Canada- 31.0%
USA - 25.1%

[noventa]

Originally Posted by falcon

Sounds like your reading comprehension could use some work. Perhaps a University education would help? The writer is stating facts that this does in fact happen in Nordic countries.

I understand what the statement means and my response to it is that giving living allowance to students is stupid.
Reason: I believe it would encourage people who are not interested in actually obtaining a higher education to just freeload off the system for 4 more years or however long it takes.

[noventa]

and by what metric is the Nordic model better than the USA model?

[metal]

Originally Posted by falcon

I'm 15 hours into my PPL and $4000 poorer. Only $75,000 to go until I have 200 hours and all the endorsements needed to get work as a commercial pilot. All within a year and a half of time VS. 4 years college decided by the same amount.

Gab, where do you fly out of?

It really shouldn't cost you more than $50-60k to get your CPL/MIFR from 0 hours. Unless you're enrolled in some super expensive flight college and getting an "aviation degree" as well. There are a couple of subsidized flight colleges in Ontario that are pretty sweet and cost you just a fraction of that as well.

[Sid Vicious]

Originally Posted by noventa

and by what metric is the Nordic model better than the USA model?

[VRYALT3R3D]

Peter Schiff: Why the Government Should Not Be in the Student Loan Business - YouTube

How government programs drive up college tuitions - YouTube

[noventa]

ok hold on here. If I am going to continue with this discussion you are going to have to confirm this statement.

By posting your prison population pictorial diagram, are you saying :
The Nordic Education Model is better because it results in fewer prisoner.

If you agree with that statement, please explain how the Education System is credited with keeping people out of prison. I believe you may be drawing a correlation between two events that is unsubstantiated.

[StylinRed]

Originally Posted by 4444

Wow, I'm not sure how you ended up with a reaction like that, I was merely pointing out that this an info graphic that, while probably containing a lot of truth AND making a real, true point - it will likely lean one way

I was not making any kind of pro/anti commentary... Some people are so quick to be little bitches - wonder how u'll ever manage in the real world

I wasn't intending to make fun of you (else i would have failed you / edited my quote of you, with my msg in place) but you're obviously butt hurt from it. all i had meant to convey was that that is likely what Americans will think and say immediately after seeing "occupy wall st." and the nations the inforgraphic is using as an example

as for the last comment the same goes for you for someone who goes apeshit so easily (seen in many of your posts)

Originally Posted by 4444

Norway has built a huge sovereign wealth fund from their oil & gas, something like $600bn, yet another retarded post

Actually, I can barely make sense of your poorly written post, with semi colons and commas spattered around like an epileptic ape

again you're butt hurt i can tell, im sorry you're so offended and I have no idea why you're mentioning Norway with that quote... when I clearly stated Norway was oil rich...

as for the garbled language, meh

[Sid Vicious]

Originally Posted by noventa

ok hold on here. If I am going to continue with this discussion you are going to have to confirm this statement.

By posting your prison population pictorial diagram, are you saying :
The Nordic Education Model is better because it results in fewer prisoner.

If you agree with that statement, please explain how the Education System is credited with keeping people out of prison. I believe you may be drawing a correlation between two events that is unsubstantiated.

? it says right on the picture

if the american gov't cut their military spending, and reformed their justice system they'd have more money to spend on other things, such as education, healthcare infrastructure whatever...which in turn would create greater benefits for society as a whole