Government Waste

[Traum]

Originally Posted by gars

So you're saying that just because you aren't allowed to have a semi-cushy life, the mayor isn't either? I'm sure most people on this forum above 25 has, at one point in their life, had to work long hours with little rest, whether it was because of work, school or both - but that doesn't mean we should start making all public sector workers start working 12 hour days.

I don't get it - so we aren't allowed to compare these guys to a company executive working in the private sector? They have to work the long hours, but don't get the same benefits - such as staying at a hotel during conferences - nor are they allowed the same pay.

Gars, I'm saying that these elected wusses need to man up. They already enjoy a nice comfy salary, with an even bigger golden parachute, all on our dime. If they need a hotel to avoid the commute, they can certainly afford it out of their own wallets. After all, that's what a ton of us do, day-in, day-out. Is it too much to ask our city politicians to do the same?

Company executives working in the private sector are subjected to a different set of rules because investors don't pay the executive's salaries. The executives lead the company to make money for the investors. On the other hand, mayors and counsellors are public servants, and our collective tax dollars already pay for their salary. The operative funds the city uses also comes from our hard earned taxes as well. When these public servants squander our tax dollars, I think citizens have the right to voice their disapproval and ask for more accountability.

[Traum]

Originally Posted by Tapioca

Part of the reason why I think we have the politcians we have is that it's a lousy job with no recognition and no honour. You never get credit when you do the right thing, but you get slammed when you do the wrong thing. It may seem to most of us here that they do nothing, but I think that's a fairly naïve view to have. Managing a building of 200 residents is not the same as managing a city of 200,000 people.

If politics was so lucrative (either through salaries, or corruption), then why don't we have more "smart" people in politics? I guess smart, charismatic people would rather make their 6 figures salaries in anonymity.
Posted via RS Mobile

Politics is lucrative not necessarily in monetary gains, but in power and fame, and some people crave for that more than money. In the grand scheme of things, municipal politics is merely a stepping stone to bigger and fancier stages, where the power and glory really lies.

Case in point, Romney is a heck of a lot wealthier than Obama. But who do you suppose Romney would rather be? President Romney, or "just" Governor Romney?

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by Traum

Politics is lucrative not necessarily in monetary gains, but in power and fame, and some people crave for that more than money. In the grand scheme of things, municipal politics is merely a stepping stone to bigger and fancier stages, where the power and glory really lies.

Based on the comments in this thread alone, I would strongly argue that politics is hardly lucrative in terms of fame and power. There is not one ounce of respect for politicians, on either side of the spectrum. Not only that, but people seem to think that the modern politician is beholden to other interests such as large corporations.
Posted via RS Mobile

[Xululu]

Vancouver defends $3K bike pumps as safety measure | CTV British Columbia News

[Great68]

And people wonder why we have such shitty politicians these days.

All the good people are in private industry because people don't shit on them when they buy a business class plane ticket on the company.

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by gars

I don't get it - so we aren't allowed to compare these guys to a company executive working in the private sector? They have to work the long hours, but don't get the same benefits - such as staying at a hotel during conferences - nor are they allowed the same pay.

Of course not because they're workers on our dime. We should pay them minimum wage because their work is worthless anyway! /sarcasm

However, I think the issue is that a lot of people are unfortunately underemployed and not getting paid what they're worth. For every person working as a line cook for a chain restaurant, there is another person flying business class across the country on company dime. The people who are getting the short end of the stick are the ones who complain the loudest. It's easy to chop people down instead of trying to do something to improve your lot in life - whether it's a career change, brown nosing and playing office politics, etc.

Personally, I don't think what the mayors did was right (they should have called it a day around 8 PM and then cabbed home), but there are much much larger fish to fry.
Posted via RS Mobile

[vantrip]

fukin bike lanes, not only waste of money and achieve nothing for the general population, but the also fucked up traffic patterns causing more gridlock and pollution.

[dinosaur]

^ While I agree somewhat agree (and you have a valid point), I can give you an example of a heavily praised (and rightly so) politician: Surrey's Mayor Dianne Watts.

[quasi]

Originally Posted by Tapioca

There's two sides to every issue. When you're talking about a public asset, it's hard to make decisions based purely on dollars and cents. If every public asset were built on the cheap with no aesthetics, everything would be pretty grim. Say what you will about the politicians who occupy them, but what would our Parliament buildings look like if we had a strict dollars and cents mentality? I think a reasonable argument can be made that public assets should reflect the public's aspirations. Is our aspiration to build something that reflects our collective frugality? Maybe, maybe not.
Posted via RS Mobile

I'm not talking about the legislature here, I'm talking about schools with indoor acoustic displays no larger then a kids bedroom that could be done for 1/10th the cost, still look nice and do the same job. Ceiling tiles in back room offices that cost 6 times more then what a nice non standard tile costs where the only person who will see it is the guy/gal working in that office. Chromatic demountable partition systems that cost 20x more then a standard wall, hey there demountable they can be moved. You could hire someone to come in, rip out and rebuild new walls 10 times and still be ahead.

I understand sometimes you have to go above and behind and standard crap is kind of boring. With some of the high end Government building like the legislature they should spend a lot of money on design. However when you start spending $100,000+ on cosmetic ceilings in a elementary school gymnasium with little to no acoustic value and is strictly for looks it makes you kind of wonder if there spending the money in the right places some of the time.

As a contractor were paid to build these things so the more they cost the more money we make off them. As a tax payer when I'm doing my takeoffs and get pricing on specialty items in public buildings and it's off the charts nuts it makes me scratch my head and think, what the fuck.

[sdubfid]

There's only 1 solution. There should be a public inquiry costing millions. Then there should be an inquiry into the inquiry to see why it was so expensive. Then someone should be paid stupid amounts of money to make some recommendations that nobody will follow.

Following the recommendations that a 12 year old could provide there will be a $10million Bollywood party. Everyone must ride their bikes on a $2.5million 200m long sidewalk and those with low air pressure can fill up at a $3000 air pump.

Plane tickets and hotels are peanuts in the big picture. Sure they could go on redflagdeals and save some money but where do you draw the line? Maybe they should have brought their sleeping bags and all shared a room.
Posted via RS Mobile

[Gridlock]

I kind of thought that people would be like, "yeah, some of this is rediculous"

Buut I'm a lot of "meh"

So, how do we feel about Mike Duffy's 90k mistake. Speedbump as he was doing god's work?

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by Gridlock

I kind of thought that people would be like, "yeah, some of this is rediculous"

Buut I'm a lot of "meh"

So, how do we feel about Mike Duffy's 90k mistake. Speedbump as he was doing god's work?

I think every case must be treated differently. Duffy owns a cottage on PEI that he declared his principle residence so he could claim out-of-town expenses while residing in Ottawa, whereas the mayors here stayed in hotel rooms for the night because they wanted to network.

Apples to oranges. Both are not right, but you have to pick your battles. Honestly, if Nigel Wright hadn't given Duffy a cheque, I'm sure Harper could have weathered the storm and hung Duffy out to dry.

[twdm]

Originally Posted by Traum

Company executives working in the private sector are subjected to a different set of rules because investors don't pay the executive's salaries.

Lolwut? I'm assuming you think private corporations print money to pay their executives.

I really like where this discussion is going. The more you guys post more it is apparent you have no clue how this world works.

[Gridlock]

Originally Posted by Tapioca

I think every case must be treated differently. Duffy owns a cottage on PEI that he declared his principle residence so he could claim out-of-town expenses while residing in Ottawa, whereas the mayors here stayed in hotel rooms for the night because they wanted to network.

Apples to oranges. Both are not right, but you have to pick your battles. Honestly, if Nigel Wright hadn't given Duffy a cheque, I'm sure Harper could have weathered the storm and hung Duffy out to dry.

Yeah man, I'm with you on the conference thing.

Obviously there are cases of just pure waste...buying shit that we just don't need. Entitled waste...$16 glasses of juice in the most expensive hotel which happens to be the only one that allows smoking-Hi Bev Oda! and then the grey area stuff that you don't know if its cool or not.

Personally, in the grand scheme, a hotel room is ok. What are you supposed to say, "coquitlam is too far, but surrey is driveable?"

[Traum]

Originally Posted by Tapioca

Based on the comments in this thread alone, I would strongly argue that politics is hardly lucrative in terms of fame and power. There is not one ounce of respect for politicians, on either side of the spectrum. Not only that, but people seem to think that the modern politician is beholden to other interests such as large corporations.
Posted via RS Mobile

I beg to differ. Again, I stress that municipal politics is the small fry in the pond, the training ground, so-to-speak. The moment you climb up to the provincial ladder, the sensation of power could be incredible.

Another case in point -- think Crusty Clown here. Tons of people hate her guts -- she even lost in her own riding. But during the campaign when she was standing in front of all her supporters, during party convention, during the victory speech, etc. when everyone in the convention center is chanting your name and support for your party, that's where they get their fix. That's the sensation of power I was referring to.

IMO, there are only 2 occupations in the world that can give you that kind of overwhelming sensation -- being a rock star, or being a political rock star.

[Bouncing Bettys]

I have my own example and it comes from personal experience and it is the reason I will never ever vote for the BC NDP. It's quite long but I will include Cole's notes at bottom.

In the early 90's the NDP and a conservation group for the Kalamalka Lake area near Vernon called Friends Of The Park conspired to have a dirt road which went through the park permanently gated and locked. This was done so they could "protect" the precious grassland from vehicles.

The problem with their little plan was that this road was the only access my family and others of the Cosens Bay Property Owners Association had to get to the string of cottages/properties which lay along the lakeshore on the other side of this park. The only other way to access these properties was by boat so as the road was closed, a number of families had to invest in boats (good job adding more poluting boats to the lake hippies).

The cottage owners were then forced to take legal action to get their road access back.

A bit of history:
- the road was an old homesteader road dating back to the turn of the last century.
- the military had used this "pristine"grassland as an artillery range into the 1960's and signs still warn park users to be on the watch for unexploded ordinance.
- a developer pushed the road further in the 1950's creating the lakefront properties 2 of which my Grandfather purchased right away.
- the BC government purchased the grassland area and surrounding lands of the lakefrond properties in the 1970's.

**and my favourite part:
- from then on a gate was erected and all property owners were provided a key so they could have their access. No other members of the public were permitted. The property owners were happy because this meant vandals and break-ins were less likely and the park would remain relatively protected. All owners knew eachother and if an unrecognized vehicle was spotted in the park, the police could be called.

So the Friends Of The Park weren't satisfied with this arrangement and wanted zero vehicle traffic. They convinced the NDP to close the road and so in 1992 we had our access taken away.

Hiring a lawyer, it was found that the only way we could have our access back, was to fight on the grounds that the gate was illegal because this was a public road, that public money had at one time been spent to maintain a portion of the road.

We won the legal arguement and the BC Supreme Court deemed the road public, the gates had to be removed.

The problem with this that now anybody could drive a vehicle through the park which is not what the property owners, the government, or the hippies wanted.

As someone who grew up with this park it is sad to see how bad it has gotten. Idiots tear through the grasslands with their trucks, they disobey no parking rules and park in the grass to get down to the public beach, they dump garbage all over the place, they race up and down the road at high speeds kicking up dust while people walk/bike or in the case of property owners they have young kids playing on the road. It's really only a matter of time before a pedestrian gets killed. On top of that numerous cottages are broken into every winter now.

So instead of the happy little arrangement we had with the government where we had access, the park was kept in good condition, pedestrians and properties were relatively safe, etc we have this mess. That doesn't include all the money wasted in court.

More recently the current government has also been trying to discreetly make zoning changes trying to claim the properties are seasonal instead of year round and declaring them as water access only which could mean even more legal battles to come. Someone has also read of a proposal for the government to buyout all the properties, demolish the cottages, and make it a protected area. Considering there are nearly 100 properties and my family's tax assessed property alone was over $800,000 (not bad considering my Grandfather bought it for $100) just for the lakefront with no paved road, no electricity provided, no water or sewage services, etc they would have to spend quite a lot to make that happen.

So the Cole's notes:
- Provincial Government and property owners have road access deal for them only
- hippies mad anyone has road access through their grassland park
- hippies convince NDP to close road.
- property owners forced to have road declared public.
- park destroyed by public
- property owners, government, hippies all mad
- hippies and NDP = tards

[Gridlock]

Originally Posted by Blaupunkt69

I have my own example and it comes from personal experience and it is the reason I will never ever vote for the BC NDP. It's quite long but I will include Cole's notes at bottom....snip

I've talked about this before, its the problem of community action groups.

Some "thing" occurs, and the neighborhood group steps in to fight it. Everyone hops on board, and the woman(inevitable) that gets on the news is always the loud mouth you know from the neighborhood.

They fight the good fight. Dude, they win!

They don't know how to shake hands and walk away.

There is (again, inevitably) a follow up news piece and the woman is on the news and she says something of the fact of "well, this wouldn't have been a problem if the government hadn't been acting irresponsibly in the first place blah blah blah"

Nobody knows to disband and walk away, and even fewer recognize a win.

So, does it surprise me that no one would be happy with the locked gate? No. Not at all.

People also get stupid in a court setting. I don't know what it is, but people go scorched earth so fast. They are right, and you are wrong and thats it!

In this case, if the 2 sides could sit down, and really get to what each side truly wanted, this never would have hit the courts. The property owners want access for themselves and them only, and the friends wanted no traffic. Well, the owners have skin in the game as owners and are going to do what they can to protect it. Minimal cars purely for owned access only, with less boat traffic. Win! Have a 20km speed limit if you want.

Instead, the friends went scorched earth and forced it to be open.

As soon as I see community action groups forming quickly, I know logic will be no where to be found.

[StylinRed]

I'd say this is a fine example Christy Clark returns transitional allowance | News1130

Christy Clark returns transitional allowance

VANCOUVER (NEWS1130) – The Canadian Taxpayers Federation says it’s a little ridiculous that an MLA can collect their salary for up to 15 months after they lose their seat in an election.

The news comes after Premier Christy Clark announced she won’t be collecting her transitional allowance.

The premier’s office says the fund kicked in automatically after Clark lost her seat in Vancouver-Pt. Grey to NDP candidate David Eby.

But she doesn’t want the money so she’s giving it back.

Jordan Bateman with the CTF is pleased Clark isn’t taking the cash and he wishes a few other outgoing MLAs would follow her lead.

“Joe Trasolini and Gwen O’Mahony who won byelections, they were MLAs for 13 months, they’re going to get 15 months of transition payments. It’s ludicrous! This would never happen in the real world, but you know, in politics these things occur,” he says.

“I would like to see the transitional allowance scrapped altogether. I think politicians should know that at any given time they could be voted out of office. It should be dependent on them to make plans for their future not on taxpayers to fund it,” Bateman adds.

An MLA’s base salary is just over $100,000 a year.

The premier makes another $90,000 a year on top of that.

she's basically trying to buy a Liberal candidate off to give her their seat

[Lomac]

I don't have an issue with transitional allowance, per say. It's like being laid off from work and given severence. However, 15 months is rather ludicrous, especially for those who are only elected for one term. It's not that hard out there to find another job after being defeated in an election, especially for those ex MLA's that have real world experience working in a real job. Realistically it should be something more along the lines of for every month you worked, you get 1 week of salary... up to a cap of, for example, $100,000.

[meowjinboo]

I don't see a problem with that

[Gridlock]

Originally Posted by Lomac

I don't have an issue with transitional allowance, per say. It's like being laid off from work and given severence. However, 15 months is rather ludicrous, especially for those who are only elected for one term. It's not that hard out there to find another job after being defeated in an election, especially for those ex MLA's that have real world experience working in a real job. Realistically it should be something more along the lines of for every month you worked, you get 1 week of salary... up to a cap of, for example, $100,000.

Elections are expensive.

Not only do we rent a bunch of halls(not sure we actually do or not) but we do pay all those people about $300 each to take your vote, in poll after poll, electoral district after electoral district in riding after riding. There was 1500 of them in New West alone.

Then we pay off all the guys that DIDN'T get elected.

Then we pay out the MLA pension plan when the ones that have been elected a few times turn 65.

Crazy train on the money.

THAT is why people get so pissed off about 90k in Mike Duffy's expenses, because all that ain't enough...they want a dash extra.

(yes, I know I was talking about BC and then jumped to fed. senate...was just using a recent example)

[Tapioca]

In light of the so-called gravy train that is the political arena, why aren't more people on RS getting into politics? 6 figure salaries, expense accounts, pensions and the "power" to speak in front of people. It seems like a pretty good deal to me and probably a lot more lucrative than hauling boxes around, or selling stuff to people who don't need to buy it.

As the old adage goes, if you can't beat them, then join them.
Posted via RS Mobile

[StylinRed]

waste? up to $30,000 pay raises for BCLibs


NDP claims BC Liberals raised staff salaries post-election | News1130


Dont know why it says the NDP Claims when the Liberals admited to it

NDP claims BC Liberals raised staff salaries post-election
The Liberals say the raises do not increase budget demands


VICTORIA (NEWS1130) – They campaigned on a promise of tighter spending, but today the BC Liberals — still fresh off their election win — are already having to explain themselves over some big pay raises.

The NDP claims salary caps for BC Liberal staff have grown significantly, and in the case of one ministerial aid the New Democrats add there’s a pay raise of more than $30,000.

The opposition says it’s baffled, with a government that has pushed net zero labour contracts and a core review of spending and services.

Questioned by reporters in Victoria about the optics, Liberal Finance Minister Mike de Jong explains where the money’s coming from:

“Re-allocations from within, but the overall budget will be the same. Some of the positions are changes, the duties are changing, but the overall budget allocation will not change,” he insists. “The overall amount being spent on staff remains the same.”

He says shifting around government staff is common after an election.

The Canadian Taxpayers Federation says it’s not a way to win over taxpayers

The organization is blasting the BC Liberals for recent staff pay raises. BC Director Jordan Bateman says it is hypocritical to come off a debt free election campaign and hand over salary hikes.

He can’t help being critical as he explains some key political insiders in other countries don’t make as much. “You’ve got to really scratch your head when both the Chief of Staff in British Columbia and the Deputy Chief of Staff make more here than the Chief of Staff to Barack Obama makes. The United States government pays the Chief of Staff Jack Lew in the White House $175,000 a year. That salary would not be good enough for the current Deputy Chief.”

He says public sector unions may use this as ammunition when they’re in contract negotiations. “The BCGEU, CUPE, the nurses, the teachers, all of those groups are looking at this going ‘excellent.’ They’ve got the Finance Minister on record today saying that there was some money for raises, they’ll be sure to remind him of that when they’ll be negotiating, and this is going to be bad news for taxpayers down the road.”

With many people cynical of politics, he was hopeful the government would work with the public to restore faith but doesn’t feel the pay hikes do this.

[bcrdukes]

Originally Posted by Tapioca

In light of the so-called gravy train that is the political arena, why aren't more people on RS getting into politics? 6 figure salaries, expense accounts, pensions and the "power" to speak in front of people. It seems like a pretty good deal to me and probably a lot more lucrative than hauling boxes around, or selling stuff to people who don't need to buy it.

As the old adage goes, if you can't beat them, then join them.
Posted via RS Mobile

You just described The RS Justice League.

[Hlinda]

Originally Posted by Phil@rise

relax buddy no need to be so abrasive. Unless your a corrupt gov official with gold leaf toilet paper

agree.