anyone feel university is massively overrated?

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by Sid Vicious

thanks, you put it more succintly than i did. actually showing up to most lectures imo is pointless, but alot of courses aren't offered via distance ed

LA/SS degrees as a whole need to incorporate better teaching techniques and are stuck in a time warp.

The world is definitely changing quickly, but how many disciplines do you know change their teaching methods and foundations on a dime? Reform in teaching methods will happen, but it takes time and typically, academics move more slowly because they are, by nature, reflective to a fault.

most classes still require a textbook, which is stupid as fuck considering how fast the information in one becomes outdated. and although writing papers in stuff is vital to learning, courses should require more "hands on" projects that require creativity. for example, entrepeneurial classes require you to actually market and sell a product.

Perhaps textbooks may be irrelevant in the business world, but are we experiencing a fundamental shift in the way we view the foundations of the market economy, for example? Other disciplines don't experience the same change as certain business disciplines do.

interesting, i went to the same school and gradded with the same degree (but with a concentration in operations management + finance). but the work experience was 1000% more useful to me than going to class, and i felt the qualitative classes didnt teach me much of anything...like for example, business communication...etc

most people missed the point of this thread. the value of university and higher learning is theoretically priceless, however the execution is sorely lacking. material taught in class is often outdated or worse, and most degrees have dozens of filler courses which are prereqs.

How did you get hired in your job in the first place? I bet it was because you were enrolled in a university degree program. Notwithstanding some of what others have said about the value of a university education, at the end of the day, it's a piece of paper you need. Sure, it's overrated, but you basically need a university degree to do anything that is not related to working with your hands.

basically social science degrees market themselves as a science when they fail both measures of scientific validity
1) empiricism
2) reproducibility

I can't disagree here; when I was a social science student, I was under no illusions about the degree of scientific rigour (or lack thereof) behind various assumptions. The term "social science" is a bit of a misnomer.

Since this thread has an undertone of picking on "liberal arts/social sciences" graduates, I will state that I guess I bucked the trend and have a pretty interesting job that only 10 or so other people in the whole country have. And, I'm compensated at a fair amount salary for it (which is above-average compared to most people my age and with my education level.) So, there's hope for social science undergrads - you just have to make the most out of the opportunities that come your way and leverage your ability to argue and articulate.

[dinosaur]

Originally Posted by Geoc

I thought all MA are full ride...


Paying the school to be a research assistant?

No but there are several options for grants, bursaries, and scholarships through the gov't.

What I meant by "full-ride" is that she was offered admittance with no formal application and a scholarship directly from the Universities. iirc, SFU was one, University of Saskatchewan, and 2 back east were the others.

Funny you mention "research assistant"...that is how it all started. She offered to be one for a proff...in her spare time she worked on a project she created about facial recognition for 2nd generation Canadians in relation to crimes. She submitted it to the CPA convention and was chosen as the only BA student to speak about it. Then she one "best paper" of the convention...kind of all blew up from there.

[quasi]

This subject has been beat with a hammer and run over with a tank on here. To answer the original question, yes it's over rated to an extent. It's not useless but over rated for sure.

[originalhypa]

Originally Posted by quasi

To answer the original question, yes it's over rated to an extent. It's not useless but over rated for sure.

I respectfully disagree with you quasi (but I'll thank you anyway ).
My experience entails 18 years in business, with the last 10 years in management. I took a couple of college marketing courses but never finished my degree. After 4 years in business, I was making pretty good money while most of my friends who went to business school were just entering the workforce. My 5th year in business was quite profitable, just over 6 figures while most of my friends started in entry level management positions making about $40k/yr.

Fast forward ten years (2010), and these 3 guys are working high level management positions at a Pharmaceutical company, another at Coca Cola, and another at HP. These guys are making $150k+ a year, have full pensions and stock options (where applicable) and are traveling the world. Now I'm not doing too bad myself, but while I've stagnated in my career, they have no ceiling. In the end, no one can ever take away your degree, and in many situations, having that degree is the difference between having a future in a company, and working in Data Entry till your 45 and miserable. My buddy at Coke says they don't hire anyone in high level management without a degree. That says something right there.

I've been looking into taking an early retirement and heading to law school. At 36 years old...
I wish I did it when I was 20 and had no kids, as opposed to now with such a busy life. But it's going to be well worth it, getting out of a dead end career (in sales).

[Energy]

Originally Posted by originalhypa

I've been looking into taking an early retirement and heading to law school. At 36 years old...
I wish I did it when I was 20 and had no kids, as opposed to now with such a busy life. But it's going to be well worth it, getting out of a dead end career (in sales).

Don't worry about your age and kids if you really want to do it, I have classmates that are in their 40s or 50s with kids and have had previous careers and they are doing well. Those people also have the most interesting stories

[Energy]

Originally Posted by jpark

i know plenty of people who are making big dough already without any post secondary education. Connection plays a big role in this situation though.

The brother of one of my close friends never finished university but married a girl whose family is very wealthy. Now he works at his wife's family's business and just last week bought a 997 Turbo at the ripe old age of 28 (he was forced to get it in auto for his wife though). I'll admit I was very jealous haha.

But yeah, you don't need a university education to make it.

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by originalhypa

Fast forward ten years (2010), and these 3 guys are working high level management positions at a Pharmaceutical company, another at Coca Cola, and another at HP. These guys are making $150k+ a year, have full pensions and stock options (where applicable) and are traveling the world. Now I'm not doing too bad myself, but while I've stagnated in my career, they have no ceiling. In the end, no one can ever take away your degree, and in many situations, having that degree is the difference between having a future in a company, and working in Data Entry till your 45 and miserable. My buddy at Coke says they don't hire anyone in high level management without a degree. That says something right there.

Most people here don't deal with people who make good money (and no, 60K at the age of 25 is not considered "good money") which is why they have a misplaced view about higher education. Good money isn't about driving the latest 3-series; it's about being able to travel the world on a moment's notice without flinching at the cost.

What hurts about doing a degree when you're young is that it does require sacrifice - certainly more sacrifice today than it did even just 10 years ago. It may well be advisable for kids out of high school to make some money first and understand how the world works before pursuing higher education. But, ultimately, having a degree does not hurt you and in life, there are far more decisions that could hurt you than not.

[dinosaur]

Originally Posted by originalhypa

I've been looking into taking an early retirement and heading to law school. At 36 years old...
.

this is awesome and you should totally do it!

they say that people of our generation will have 2-4 careers in their life-time...by choice. gone are the days of working at the same job until you retire. i don't know how my parents did it.

im 32 and on my second career...who knows where i'll be in 10 years.

[bing]

Originally Posted by Sid Vicious

interesting, i went to the same school and gradded with the same degree (but with a concentration in operations management + finance). but the work experience was 1000% more useful to me than going to class, and i felt the qualitative classes didnt teach me much of anything...like for example, business communication...etc

Wait, so you got a business degree but you're bitching about the social sciences?

Honestly, even if someone got a degree in engineering or the sciences yet their grades were shit, they probably wouldn't get a job in their field either. Some companies don't even look at you without a 3.0 GPA.

[Energy]

Originally Posted by bing

Wait, so you got a business degree but you're bitching about the social sciences?

Honestly, even if someone got a degree in engineering or the sciences yet their grades were shit, they probably wouldn't get a job in their field either. Some companies don't even look at you without a 3.0 GPA.

+1

OP, why are you complaining about a social science or liberal arts degree when you already finished and with a business degree?

Are you seriously that concerned about the welfare of people entering university now?

Or did you just want to bring up the topic for the sake of debate.

[Marshall Placid]

Interesting replies and subject.

Like some posters stated, it really depends on your degree/specialisation.

But, what I've noticed more and more is that it also depends on WHICH university you went to.

BCIT, IMHO, is for very specialized technical type jobs.

For UBC, SFU, etc. it depends on the specialization of the universities themselves.

For example (I'm generalising here), people equate University of Western Ontario as having a good undergraduate business degree.

Or, U of Toronto for medical doc degrees.

It just depends on specializations for specific Universities.

To prove the point, in general, if you are a business undergraduate from Harvard, you would probably have a higher probability of earning more than an undergraduate from a lesser known university/college.

Of course, you have to actually be admitted into the university through SATs in the States and other variables from high school or GMAT for MBAs. That is how the better known universities weed out the students.

I would like to ELABORATE on what Ulic Qel-Droma said previously: "you're special, if you're already special." Elaboration: my point is that having a degree from a respected or "high-reputation" university proves to the world and to large companies that you have the chops and mental acuity to perform at the new job postings. The proof is on paper. For example, 2 potential job candidates have the same IQ, but one has a degree, and one does not. The company would probably hire the candidate with the degree.

That is a large part of what university is for (proof of skill/IQ/mental acuity, etc.), and depending on what university you went to, you may get a higher or lower salary from the same exact type of job.


So, yes, it depends on the degree, depends on WHICH university you went to, and really, genuinely, what IQ rating you have.


And, oh yes, one thing is for sure, from experience, university is 100% NOT over-rated for... one thing... and that is PARTYING.

[Timpo]

Originally Posted by parm104

YOU....have a post-secondary education!?...

yes

Originally Posted by Gridlock

I need to jump on this one.

What exactly DO you do?

At Uvic? Business Administration..
But I was going to flight academy at the airport because I wanted to be a pilot.
Got my license, never used it though...didn't feel like going up north and accumulating 2,000-3,000 hrs before you can even dream about moving on to larger airlines. It was useless and random thing I did in life.

[J.C]

[Energy]

Originally Posted by LiquidTurbo

I know many people that have a degree that can't critically think..

Originally Posted by Timpo

At Uvic? Business Administration..
But I was going to flight academy at the airport because I wanted to be a pilot.
Got my license, never used it though...didn't feel like going up north and accumulating 2,000-3,000 hrs before you can even dream about moving on to larger airlines. It was useless and random thing I did in life.

[Excelsis]

if you get your degree and don't use the knowledge you gain from it afterwards it's useless

university doesn't teach you to think outside the box

it's good if you want to enjoy the system..

[originalhypa]

Originally Posted by Tapioca

Most people here don't deal with people who make good money (and no, 60K at the age of 25 is not considered "good money")

sigh.....

First off, if you'd read my reply you would see that I was making that 11 years ago at the age of 25. This was back when gas was 79.9/L. However, that's besides the point. We're talking about today, right?

Right. Because this is where I recognize that you're just another sheltered child of Vancouver with a bimmer bought by your mom.
As of 2012 , the AVERAGE BC FAMILY INCOME WAS STILL $65,500!!!!!

Average family income unchanged - Business - CBC News (year old link, deal with it).

That's with two people working. Simply put, not everyone associates with the rich 604 elite like you. Most of us who live in the real world recognize that MOST PEOPLE are not making, as you put it, good money. Most people that I deal with on a daily basis have jobs with major corporations, but very few are making 6 figures. Many are pulling in $32-40/hr at the most. Sure you can make lots of money, but you have to work lots of hours.

which is why they have a misplaced view about higher education. Good money isn't about driving the latest 3-series; it's about being able to travel the world on a moment's notice without flinching at the cost.

To you maybe this is important. After spending my teens and 20's visiting the world, I don't like to travel anymore. I live in the best place in the world, and while Rome is nice to visit, I despise the gypsies. While Holland was nice, the crime wasn't. While Hong Kong is colorful, I don't ever want to go there again.

I judge my own success by never worrying about money, and definitely not working a lot of hours. I stroll into work at 9am, and I'm out by about 2:30pm. You can have your hours upon hours of overtime. I'm going boating...

What hurts about doing a degree when you're young is that it does require sacrifice - certainly more sacrifice today than it did even just 10 years ago. It may well be advisable for kids out of high school to make some money first and understand how the world works before pursuing higher education. But, ultimately, having a degree does not hurt you and in life, there are far more decisions that could hurt you than not.

This is where I take a breath and calmly agree with you. IT does require sacrifice, which is tough at any age. But again, once you have a degree it doesn't expire. While your marketing degree may not be doing anything for you now, it might in a decade because who knows where one will be in 10 years.

It's nice outside, so I don't want to waste anymore time arguing, but your comment about pay scale was ignorant and incorrect, and I wanted you to know that.

More examples before I log off for the day;

Telus business analyst - $55,125
UBC Postdoctoral - $40,571
AirG software engineer - $57,889
Vancity account manager - $51,167

and finally, BC Hydro trouble technician, an electrician (gasp, a trade worker!) pulls in $163,674


shocking!!!!!
(pun intended)

Vancouver, BC Salary | Glassdoor.ca

[dinosaur]

^^ Brilliant!


One of my favourite things about RS is how people throw around 6 figure salaries like they are handing candy to children. It isn't as common as people think...

[Sid Vicious]

Originally Posted by bing

Wait, so you got a business degree but you're bitching about the social sciences?

Honestly, even if someone got a degree in engineering or the sciences yet their grades were shit, they probably wouldn't get a job in their field either. Some companies don't even look at you without a 3.0 GPA.

Originally Posted by Energy

+1

OP, why are you complaining about a social science or liberal arts degree when you already finished and with a business degree?

Are you seriously that concerned about the welfare of people entering university now?

Or did you just want to bring up the topic for the sake of debate.

uh...business is by definition, a social science and like i said, fails both tests of scientific validity

[Energy]

Are you talking about EXACTNESS?

What I learned, and Wikipedia helps me organize those thoughts, is that "validity is the extent to which a concept, conclusion or measurement is well-founded and corresponds accurately to the real world".

There is an element of reasonableness here, sometimes there will be outliers.

In business, for example, I remember from a marketing class that social science studies show that a grocery store or retail outlet is can be organized in many different ways. One way a grocery store like Safeway is arranged is that all the meat and dairy are in the back, which forces people to pass through the stuff they don't need like snacks and chips.

This was proven to be a result that accurately represents normal behavior. Of course, there might be people that are in a rush or just want their milk but that doesn't make the results any less valid.

So how is this any less useful than something you can prove 100% of the time?

You mention empiricism and reproducibility, the studies that led to the conclusion above meet both those requirements.

There you have an example of how social science can lead to practical results businesses have used to make money.

(my example is from what I remember from class years ago, it might not be exactly what we were taught but the idea is there).

[Sid Vicious]

Originally Posted by Energy

Are you talking about EXACTNESS?

What I learned, and Wikipedia helps me organize those thoughts, is that "validity is the extent to which a concept, conclusion or measurement is well-founded and corresponds accurately to the real world".

There is an element of reasonableness here, sometimes there will be outliers.

In business, for example, I remember from a marketing class that social science studies show that a grocery store or retail outlet is can be organized in many different ways. One way a grocery store like Safeway is arranged is that all the meat and dairy are in the back, which forces people to pass through the stuff they don't need like snacks and chips.

This was proven to be a result that accurately represents normal behavior. Of course, there might be people that are in a rush or just want their milk but that doesn't make the results any less valid.

So how is this any less useful than something you can prove 100% of the time?

You mention empiricism and reproducibility, the studies that led to the conclusion above meet both those requirements.

There you have an example of how social science can lead to practical results businesses have used to turn make money.

(my example is from what I remember from class years ago, it might not be exactly what we were taught but the idea is there).

lol, by making this post, you essentially reinforced my original point of university failing to teach critical learning. scientific validity is a cornerstone of the scientific method, how did you not learn this in school?

[Energy]

Originally Posted by Sid Vicious

lol, by making this post, you essentially reinforced my original point of university failing to teach critical learning. scientific validity is a cornerstone of the scientific method, how did you not learn this in school?

I'm failing to see how what I said is evidence of a lack of critical learning?

Please "aware me" and explain.

[Timpo]

yeah if you're working for someone, 6 figure salary isn't easy to make.

From what I have seen personally, I guess the best way to get rich is investment, patent, inheritance, etc.

[$_$]

Originally Posted by Timpo

yeah if you're working for someone, 6 figure salary isn't easy to make.

From what I have seen personally, I guess the best way to get rich is investment, patent, inheritance, etc.

You have to have some bank to begin with in order to "invest".

The perception of money, wealth, and income is so extremely skewed in Richmond/Vancouver and that's so prevalent in so many of the replies here.

[Marco911]

Consider a university degree to be the price of entry for any non-trade job, with a few notable exceptions.

You don't need a university degree to be successful if you have a special talent, or if you intend to run your own company. However, very few people qualify for this exception or even know how to run a successful business.

Trade jobs in many cases can be more lucrative for the vast majority of people who thought they'd do better with a university degree but ended up as a barista at Starbucks.

A university degree is necessary but not sufficient to become successful in the corporate world (exception being in jobs involving sales or commissions-based positions).

Most people I know who didn't go to university/trade school are losers and flaky as heck. University does teach you some universal skills on responsibilities, deadlines, etc.

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

Originally Posted by dinosaur

^^ Brilliant!


One of my favourite things about RS is how people throw around 6 figure salaries like they are handing candy to children. It isn't as common as people think...

that's because making 100k+ in any job IS "rare".

to make 100k+ you either have to an exceptional position in some company or you run a business.

or... you take the time you have off to learn to invest. Which is how most 100k+ people are in the 100k+ range.

100k+ from the markets, is given out like candy.

If you work a job that pays 100k+, and you have some time for yourself. You're set up to be a millionaire. You just have to take that time to learn a new side skill and invest it.

There a lot of sub 100k job people making well over 100k.