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Old 07-29-2013, 02:56 AM   #26
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What an uncivilized country.
I know you got idiots with knifes running around on buses.
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Old 07-29-2013, 04:11 AM   #27
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Old 07-29-2013, 06:23 AM   #28
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I can understand how some unfamiliar with firearms or field situations would think 9 rounds is excessive, however anyone trained with firearms in a peace officer, military capacity or combat situation, you are trained to fire center mass until the subject is down. I have personally seen subjects hit with multiple rounds still proceed forward in an aggressive manner. So in this situation, with the video and all reports seemingly having the subject refusing multiple police warnings to drop the knife and proceeding forward towards the officers with the knife, if say 2 officers fired 3-4 shots, that is no were near excessive IMO and experience.

Another thing to keep in mind is that not all officers are deployed with tasers, arwin or other crowd control/non lethal measures. So when the subject made a move towards the officers while ignoring police commands with a weapon in hand, the officers on scene had to make a decision to respond with force. The enhanced video you can here a taser being deployed after the shots by another officer arriving on scene, this would at least indicate that after the 9 rounds were fired, the subject was still moving and/or had his weapon in hand. We will all have to wait till all the facts of the inquiry to come out before we can determine if the use of force here was appropriate, but to me, after viewing the video and some of the initial witness accounts, I have no issues with this.
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Old 07-29-2013, 06:58 AM   #29
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Old 07-29-2013, 07:43 AM   #30
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I suspect I'm going to get some fails for this post, but such is life - common sense seems to be a little lacking these days.

I am a strong advocate for reasonable force when necessary, as has been said earlier in this thread, it's not fair to expect a police officer to intentionally risk exchanging his life for a suspected criminal's.

However, with that said, some of these posts in this thread seem to have not seen the video of this incident.

The important point is this: while the man with the knife may have threatened the driver or other passengers earlier, he didn't harm any of them and during the entire duration of the video, there is NOBODY in the streetcar. He is not holding any hostages or risking anybody's life INCLUDING any police officers. If he comes charging out the streetcar shrieking banzai, fine, put a few rounds in him to slow him or stop him, but he's just standing there. There is no immediate time pressure whatsoever. The police have all the time in the world to arrange a tazer (which btw has a clear shot through the open door), fire rubber bullets to put him down, or any number of non-lethal alternatives.

TLDR: There are many justifiable uses of deadly force by police, but this was a stupid example of one and I hope that somebody is held accountable for it.
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Old 07-29-2013, 08:04 AM   #31
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I suspect I'm going to get some fails for this post, but such is life - common sense seems to be a little lacking these days.

I am a strong advocate for reasonable force when necessary, as has been said earlier in this thread, it's not fair to expect a police officer to intentionally risk exchanging his life for a suspected criminal's.

However, with that said, some of these posts in this thread seem to have not seen the video of this incident.

The important point is this: while the man with the knife may have threatened the driver or other passengers earlier, he didn't harm any of them and during the entire duration of the video, there is NOBODY in the streetcar. He is not holding any hostages or risking anybody's life INCLUDING any police officers. If he comes charging out the streetcar shrieking banzai, fine, put a few rounds in him to slow him or stop him, but he's just standing there. There is no immediate time pressure whatsoever. The police have all the time in the world to arrange a tazer (which btw has a clear shot through the open door), fire rubber bullets to put him down, or any number of non-lethal alternatives.

TLDR: There are many justifiable uses of deadly force by police, but this was a stupid example of one and I hope that somebody is held accountable for it.
Exactly. I'm usually on the side of officers (especially with the recent threads about excessive force during an arrest where the poster has carefully edited the video to only show the officer hitting the suspect to take them down and nothing leading up to it). But this one does seem a little excessive. I see nobody in the video in any danger and the suspect didn't even charge police.
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Old 07-29-2013, 08:26 AM   #32
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the kicker is they tazed him too at the end

what i hadn't noticed upon my first viewing is that just before the officer begins to shoot him he did advance towards the entrance of the bus, after being warned not to or he would be shot (you could argue he was goaded to do so but i wouldn't go that far). while i understand, i still wish other means were pursued (heck they clearly had a taser available)
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Old 07-29-2013, 08:32 AM   #33
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the kicker is they tazed him too at the end

what i hadn't noticed upon my first viewing is that just before the officer begins to shoot him he did advance towards the entrance of the bus, after being warned not to or he would be shot (you could argue he was goaded to do so but i wouldn't go that far). while i understand, i still wish other means were pursued (heck they clearly had a taser available)
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12:04am: One or more Toronto Police officers fire 3 shots, then a pause, followed by another burst of 6 shots. There are anywhere between 8-11 officers at the front doors of the cruiser. I hear what I believe is a taser fired. Shortly thereafter, one or two officers board the streetcar and one officers run on the back.
there is no confirmation that he was actually tasered.
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Old 07-29-2013, 08:37 AM   #34
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there is no confirmation that he was actually tasered.
true im just basing it off what you hear at the end of the video where it sounds like he still has the knife since they continue to tell him to drop it then bzzzzzbzzzzbzzzzzzzzzzzzzp @ 1:27 from the video Manic! posted the "enhanced" one
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Old 07-29-2013, 10:47 AM   #35
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Why does the media or anyone make him out to be a victim? He was the perpetrator in a crime. Was nine shots needed meh I dont know, I doubt it but with the way our police are trained one or nine it would have been the same outcome for the PERPETRATOR why cry foul for him? 8 shots wasted IMO.
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Old 07-29-2013, 11:40 AM   #36
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Toronto police chief promises answers after streetcar killing - Toronto - CBC News

Confirmed, 9 shots and a taser.

Quote:
Ross McLean, a security expert and former Toronto police officer, studied a version of the video with enhanced video and audio, frame by frame.

He said it raises serious questions about how police handled the confrontation.

On the enhanced video, a six-second jolt from a Taser can be heard after the gunshots, McLean said. Yatim also appears to put his hands over his head at one point on the enhanced video, he said.

McLean says if the officers had waited another minute for the officer with the Taser to arrive instead of opening fire, Yatim might be alive today. "Should you be Tasering someone who’s been shot six or nine times and lying on the ground?” he told CBC News.

McLean says the video also suggests police did not engage the suspect.

"Your mouth is your best weapon," he said.

The key is to communicate with and contain the suspect, he said.

Sammy Yatim was a recent high school graduate.Sammy Yatim was a recent high school graduate. (Facebook)

"He was fairly contained. He was in the streetcar. He could have let that guy sit there all night."

Police can be heard on the enhanced video saying "Drop the knife!" and "If you take one step in this direction, you’re finished," McLean told CBC host Matt Galloway on Toronto's morning radio program Metro Morning.

McLean said it's unlikely that any of the nine shots were warning shots.

"This officer’s going to have to explain why he used the level of force he did," McLean said.
My thoughts exactly, toss him a beer and ask him to chill out, there were no hostages and he did not step foot outside of the streetcar.

Maybe all that taxpayers money is going to waste in the form of police training.
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Old 07-29-2013, 12:00 PM   #37
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Why does the media or anyone make him out to be a victim? He was the perpetrator in a crime. Was nine shots needed meh I dont know, I doubt it but with the way our police are trained one or nine it would have been the same outcome for the PERPETRATOR why cry foul for him? 8 shots wasted IMO.
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Old 07-29-2013, 12:12 PM   #38
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I am glad to see there are a number of posters that know and have stated the following

Police shoot to stop the threat. It's not the movies. Your will not stop a threat if you shoot someone once unless its straight through the forehead. Police shoot as many times to end e threat. If someone was running at you full speed with a knife and is motivated, even if they are 20 feet away, they will get to you in seconds. The police will keep firing until the person drops or stops attacking.

The police are there ensure they are safe and the public is safe. Unfortunately someone died. But you should all be glad it was e perpetrator (who I refuse to call a victim) that was killed and not your cousin, mother, father, brother, sister, wife etc. if I was the cop(s) in that situation, If it were a choice between whether I'm going home or the perpetrator, it's damned sure going too be me and my colleagues.

I'd bring a gun to a knife fight 100% of the time. The truth is, whatever reason the perp had for brandishing a knife in a public area, he knew exactly what he was getting into.

Lastly you can't even see clearly what the perp in the bus is doing. Yea he by himself but does he have more knives? Is he about to throw them? Does he have more weapons or firearms we can't see? And for the comment about tapering through the side windows, wtf, please tell me how you are gong to fire a. Gazer through the top of the window accurately hitting the guy.

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Old 07-29-2013, 12:21 PM   #39
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The truth is, whatever reason the perp had for brandishing a knife in a public area, he knew exactly what he was getting into.
You actually have no way of saying that. You might say that YOU would know exactly what the expected outcome of waving a knife around in public and I would agree with that. However, there are thousands of ways a person could not be aware of what they are doing - alcohol, drugs, mental illness, you name it.

The bottom line is that the point that is being debated in this thread is not whether a police officer should shoot at somebody who is threatening their safety (which I agree, the answer is yes), but rather, was this teenager actually a threat when he was shot?

He is inside a confined space, with absolutely nobody to harm but himself, and more importantly, there was only two possible ways out of the streetcar, both an easy shot for the officers. But he didn't go for the exit. And that's why many of us are questioning what, if any, threat he actually posed.

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Old 07-29-2013, 12:25 PM   #40
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Toronto police chief promises answers after streetcar killing - Toronto - CBC News

Confirmed, 9 shots and a taser.



My thoughts exactly, toss him a beer and ask him to chill out, there were no hostages and he did not step foot outside of the streetcar.

Maybe all that taxpayers money is going to waste in the form of police training.
Says the armchair quarterback. Have you been in a situation remotely similar to this? A guy with a knife less than 15 feet away from the cops. This isn't a suicidal male (although it could have been suicide by cop). From the police's view he was an aggressor with a knife. The video only shows the last few mins. Maybe they did try to negotiate with him up until where the video starts. Even if they didn't, you/ we weren't there so it's a bitch move to judge what has happened if you weren't there and weren't in that situation.

Honestly, even if they were to apprehend him and he gets released, and does a similar stunt again, possibly killing someone, who's fault would it be for not stopping him after the first incident. Oh ya, that's right, the police.
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Old 07-29-2013, 12:29 PM   #41
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My thoughts exactly, toss him a beer and ask him to chill out, there were no hostages and he did not step foot outside of the streetcar.
Toss him a beer? The suspect was armed with an edged weapon, behaving in an aggressive/hostile manner, endagering the general public and not obeying police commands to drop the weapon.

I bet initial calls to 911 had terrified callers, scared for their lives because of someone behaving aggressively with a weapon while on their ride home. Police arrived on site immediately, ready to deal with a hostile situation, not to make friends. At what point is it safe to dispatch a car to the liquor store to grab a six-pack? Remember, according to the OP the entire ordeal was over in a few minutes. The suspect/victim/idiot DID NOT obey commands to drop the weapon, if he did drop the weapon, maybe he would be alive today to enjoy a beer.
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Old 07-29-2013, 12:31 PM   #42
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You actually have no way of saying that. You might say that YOU would know exactly what the expected outcome of waving a knife around in public and I would agree with that. However, there are thousands of ways a person could not be aware of what they are doing - alcohol, drugs, mental illness, you name it.

The bottom line is that the point that is being debated in this thread is not whether a police officer should shoot at somebody who is threatening their safety (which I agree, the answer is yes), but rather, was this teenager actually a threat when he was shot?

He is inside a confined space, with absolutely nobody to harm but himself, and more importantly, there was only two possible ways out of the streetcar, both an easy shot for the officers. But he didn't go for the exit. And that's why many of us are questioning what, if any, threat he actually posed.

Mark
If mental illness. Drugs, alcohol were a factor, I would be more fearful for my safety as people with the above issues are extremely unpredictable and highly motivated. Yes he is in a confined space, but he is at the entrance about 10-15 feet from the officers at the front. An easy straight b line towards them and he would be face to face with them in less than 2 seconds.

Could things have been done differently? Maybe. But in my view, the fact that the only person hurt was the perp brandishing a knife, threatening the public and police, i personally think the outcome could have been way worse.

I just watched the video again and you can see the perp bend down or do something right before the first shot is fired. It must have been something that was perceived by the officer to be threatening towards him and his colleagues.

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Old 07-29-2013, 01:13 PM   #43
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I am glad to see there are a number of posters that know and have stated the following

Police shoot to stop the threat. It's not the movies. Your will not stop a threat if you shoot someone once unless its straight through the forehead. Police shoot as many times to end e threat. If someone was running at you full speed with a knife and is motivated, even if they are 20 feet away, they will get to you in seconds. The police will keep firing until the person drops or stops attacking.

The police are there ensure they are safe and the public is safe. Unfortunately someone died. But you should all be glad it was e perpetrator (who I refuse to call a victim) that was killed and not your cousin, mother, father, brother, sister, wife etc. if I was the cop(s) in that situation, If it were a choice between whether I'm going home or the perpetrator, it's damned sure going too be me and my colleagues.

I'd bring a gun to a knife fight 100% of the time. The truth is, whatever reason the perp had for brandishing a knife in a public area, he knew exactly what he was getting into.

Lastly you can't even see clearly what the perp in the bus is doing. Yea he by himself but does he have more knives? Is he about to throw them? Does he have more weapons or firearms we can't see? And for the comment about tapering through the side windows, wtf, please tell me how you are gong to fire a. Gazer through the top of the window accurately hitting the guy.
You are still missing the point, this was 1 suicidal maniac vs police. The passengers/hostages were not on board the streetcar. It is assumed that he told everyone to get off as there were no injuries resulting from this incident.

I do agree that you shoot to halt the attacker, but you also missed the fact that police paused before unloading more rounds, also he was tazed after dropping to the ground. Did the police even check to see if he was hit?

I've seen attackers with weapons in NY and crowds gather to watch shit go down with the police.

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Says the armchair quarterback. Have you been in a situation remotely similar to this? A guy with a knife less than 15 feet away from the cops. This isn't a suicidal male (although it could have been suicide by cop). From the police's view he was an aggressor with a knife. The video only shows the last few mins. Maybe they did try to negotiate with him up until where the video starts. Even if they didn't, you/ we weren't there so it's a bitch move to judge what has happened if you weren't there and weren't in that situation.

Honestly, even if they were to apprehend him and he gets released, and does a similar stunt again, possibly killing someone, who's fault would it be for not stopping him after the first incident. Oh ya, that's right, the police.
I will be honest and say no, but judging from a cop casually walking around on his radio also 15 ft away and the fact that if this was a code red call shouldn't all guns be drawn to minimize any risks of the attacker getting close?

I'm no expert on how police deal with a threats and I can't imagine being in the same shoes but obviously you are an expert on this subject. Let's just forget what a security expert and ex toronto cop has to say....

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Old 07-29-2013, 01:16 PM   #44
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Toss him a beer? The suspect was armed with an edged weapon, behaving in an aggressive/hostile manner, endagering the general public and not obeying police commands to drop the weapon.

I bet initial calls to 911 had terrified callers, scared for their lives because of someone behaving aggressively with a weapon while on their ride home. Police arrived on site immediately, ready to deal with a hostile situation, not to make friends. At what point is it safe to dispatch a car to the liquor store to grab a six-pack? Remember, according to the OP the entire ordeal was over in a few minutes. The suspect/victim/idiot DID NOT obey commands to drop the weapon, if he did drop the weapon, maybe he would be alive today to enjoy a beer.
Figure of speech... I should of said it was sarcasm my bad
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Old 07-29-2013, 01:35 PM   #45
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You are still missing the point, this was 1 suicidal maniac vs police. The passengers/hostages were not on board the streetcar. It is assumed that he told everyone to get off as there were no injuries resulting from this incident.

I do agree that you shoot to halt the attacker, but you also missed the fact that police paused before unloading more rounds, also he was tazed after dropping to the ground. Did the police even check to see if he was hit?

I've seen attackers with weapons in NY and crowds gather to watch shit go down with the police.....
We don't know if he was suicidal or just hopped on drugs or just mentally ill.... Or all the above. You can't see what he is doing after the first shot. You don't know if he is still attempting to throw or reach for another weapon etc. the point I am making is that from that video you are assuming he is down dead and motionless . For all we know, he could be reaching for something behind his back, or under his shirt. And since I wasn't there, and the doesn't reveal much(just by it is fairly close there is a lot being obstructed by the train), I am going to give the officers, who are trained and paid to be in these type of situations, the benefit of the doubt.
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Old 07-29-2013, 01:42 PM   #46
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We don't know if he was suicidal or just hopped on drugs or just mentally ill.... Or all the above. You can't see what he is doing after the first shot. You don't know if he is still attempting to throw or reach for another weapon etc. the point I am making is that from that video you are assuming he is down dead and motionless . For all we know, he could be reaching for something behind his back, or under his shirt. And since I wasn't there, and the doesn't reveal much(just by it is fairly close there is a lot being obstructed by the train), I am going to give the officers, who are trained and paid to be in these type of situations, the benefit of the doubt.


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Not the first time. I recall in chinatown years ago... there used to be this huge asian mentally disturbed dude who always wore monk outfits and chant bhuddist scriptures all the time. Everyone knew he was mentally disturbed but was no harm to anyone. Been hanging around Spadina chinatown for years... Same thing happened. One day he went on one of his rants on a streetcar in chinatown. Peeps got scared, police was called. They thought he had a knife or gun in his pocket they way he was going on with his body language. Police opened fire and he died on the spot. I thought it was strange I didnt see him on Spadina streetcars or hanging around asian restaurants for food handouts like he usually does... then checked the net and found out he was killed by police.
Something I found on RFD, maybe Toronto cops are trained to shoot first and ask questions later? Two different police cultures.
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Old 07-29-2013, 01:47 PM   #47
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Streetcar shooting: Toronto police officer suspended - Toronto - CBC News

According to this article, the streetcar was entirely empty. There were no other passengers that he threatened, etc.
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Old 07-29-2013, 02:10 PM   #48
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Excessive force or not, I'm glad someone like that won't be back on the bus anymore.. good riddance. There is way too many criminals/bums/drunks already, they harass us all the time and no one says anything... one of them gets taken out and everyone loses their mind.
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Old 07-29-2013, 02:20 PM   #49
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Excessive force or not, I'm glad someone like that won't be back on the bus anymore.. good riddance. There is way too many criminals/bums/drunks already, they harass us all the time and no one says anything... one of them gets taken out and everyone loses their mind.
lolwut, i've never been harassed in public or on the bus randomly...and would you really feel that bad if a bum harassed you? i mean he's homeless, grow a thicker skin

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Old 07-29-2013, 03:28 PM   #50
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Try going out at night sometime.. I hate those drunk idiots bothering everyone.
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