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Vancouver Off-Topic / Current EventsThe off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.
Martin Baron is a Toronto architect who was on the scene at the time of the shooting. He encountered the incident as he made his way home with his wife and son.
"The whole thing was quick — from the moment we saw the first police officer with the gun to the moment the first shot was fired was maybe 60 seconds," Baron told CBC Radio's As It Happens.
I suspect I'm going to get some fails for this post, but such is life - common sense seems to be a little lacking these days.
I am a strong advocate for reasonable force when necessary, as has been said earlier in this thread, it's not fair to expect a police officer to intentionally risk exchanging his life for a suspected criminal's.
However, with that said, some of these posts in this thread seem to have not seen the video of this incident.
The important point is this: while the man with the knife may have threatened the driver or other passengers earlier, he didn't harm any of them and during the entire duration of the video, there is NOBODY in the streetcar. He is not holding any hostages or risking anybody's life INCLUDING any police officers. If he comes charging out the streetcar shrieking banzai, fine, put a few rounds in him to slow him or stop him, but he's just standing there. There is no immediate time pressure whatsoever. The police have all the time in the world to arrange a tazer (which btw has a clear shot through the open door), fire rubber bullets to put him down, or any number of non-lethal alternatives.
TLDR: There are many justifiable uses of deadly force by police, but this was a stupid example of one and I hope that somebody is held accountable for it.
one of the only posts in here that is actually thought out. most of the other posts seem like they were made by sheltered kids.
that kid did not have to be shot 9 fucking times and then tazed while he was down.
one of the only posts in here that is actually thought out. most of the other posts seem like they were made by sheltered kids.
that kid did not have to be shot 9 fucking times and then tazed while he was down.
It may be thought out, but it's thought out by someone looking at a video in the comfort of their home. Hindsight is 20/20. Sounds familiar doesn't it? Like a hockey "Analyst" who's never played a game in his/her life.
but then again everyone will just downplay the fact that he was threatening others with a knife and what not and the media will doll him up like an angel who became a victim.
BUT BUT BUT... MY FEEEELINGSSSS.....
HE WAS AN ANGEL HE DIDN DO NUFFIN!
__________________
The only ocean creature you can call yourself is the giant squid. He's the destroyer of ships, and the eater of seamen. At least you share one of those traits. -Hypa
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For those of you crying about him getting shot, REMEMBER this person came on the bus, threatened the lives of the driver and others on it and would not put down the knife. If you do that YOU WILL GET SHOT.
Its not hard to figure out.
DONT BE STUPID AND DONT GET SHOT...seems good to me. RIP to this kid regardless of his wrongdoings. Death is nothing I wish upon anyone.
one of the only posts in here that is actually thought out. most of the other posts seem like they were made by sheltered kids.
that kid did not have to be shot 9 fucking times and then tazed while he was down.
No. Just because you don't agree with the opposing posts doesn't mean they're any less thought out; and your comment about being sheltered is soooo ironing.
doesn't feel justified. a kid inside of a bus with a knife yelling "your're a pussy" does not need to be shot.
You left out the part of threatening peoples lives, brandishing a weapon, not responding to police commands when being told to drop it.
As the person on the other end, you can only expect one outcome of this and often times people that do this are the ones that want to die. The ones that thing "death by cop" is easier than taking there own life.
Its obvious this person had some issues with there life. Perhaps a crappy home, perhaps living in poverty, perhaps mental challenge or mental illness. But in the end, if I traded shoes with the cops, I would not put MY life on the line to save someone who does not value the life of others nor would I expect a police officers. They have family and friends that they have to think about if they are to put there lives in that much danger.
If you know firearms, then you may also understand that many Toronto PO's are issued Glock 17 9mm handguns. They also use Spear Gold Dot 124grn hallowpoints. An unfortunate issues with this round is that any kind of clogging of the hallowpoint causes the round to just penetrate and not expand. This means that the person who is shot does not just drop and give up the fight. He was shot, there was a pause, more commands given, still no response, still not following commands and he was shot again.
Cop did his job spot on. One person died, could have been many more if someone were to go on the bus and try to wrestle him to the ground.
There will always be alternative outcomes to a situation like this, but in the end this guy threatened the public, threatened the police, refused to back down. This is what happens. Its sad, but what do you expect when you pull something like this?
You left out the part of threatening peoples lives, brandishing a weapon, not responding to police commands when being told to drop it.
As the person on the other end, you can only expect one outcome of this and often times people that do this are the ones that want to die. The ones that thing "death by cop" is easier than taking there own life.
Its obvious this person had some issues with there life. Perhaps a crappy home, perhaps living in poverty, perhaps mental challenge or mental illness. But in the end, if I traded shoes with the cops, I would not put MY life on the line to save someone who does not value the life of others nor would I expect a police officers. They have family and friends that they have to think about if they are to put there lives in that much danger.
If you know firearms, then you may also understand that many Toronto PO's are issued Glock 17 9mm handguns. They also use Spear Gold Dot 124grn hallowpoints. An unfortunate issues with this round is that any kind of clogging of the hallowpoint causes the round to just penetrate and not expand. This means that the person who is shot does not just drop and give up the fight. He was shot, there was a pause, more commands given, still no response, still not following commands and he was shot again.
Cop did his job spot on. One person died, could have been many more if someone were to go on the bus and try to wrestle him to the ground.
There will always be alternative outcomes to a situation like this, but in the end this guy threatened the public, threatened the police, refused to back down. This is what happens. Its sad, but what do you expect when you pull something like this?
i get what you're saying. nobody can argue that anything he did was not wrong. but to be shot for it is excessive, with the number of cops surrounding the bus, the distance between each other, the fact that he only had a knife makes it seem like a death could have been avoided.
if the kid had a knife that could trigger a bomb nearby (not srs) that would warrant getting shot.. not just holding a knife though.. there could be more to it though, who knows.
i get what you're saying. nobody can argue that anything he did was not wrong. but to be shot for it is excessive, with the number of cops surrounding the bus, the distance between each other, the fact that he only had a knife makes it seem like a death could have been avoided.
if the kid had a knife that could trigger a bomb nearby (not srs) that would warrant getting shot.. not just holding a knife though.. there could be more to it though, who knows.
What would you propose as another solution to a man who is confined to a small space (bus) with a knife?
Tasers don't go through metal or glass, gassing him out does not mean he drops the knife, it means he becomes very erratic and unpredictable.
As a police officer you need to assess your options, and ever option that I can see means you need to put one or more officers in harms way. If that's the case, then taking out the threat is the best outcome. You save any chance of an officer being seriously injured or killed and loosing 2 lives by taking one life of a person who has chosen to threaten people and provoke the police.
If you dont listen to cops yelling at you to do something, then you deserve to get shot.. If he had drop the knife, he wouldnt have gotten shot in the first place..
For all we know, 8 shots of the 9 hit him in the arms/legs and that 1 shot was the fatal one
i get what you're saying. nobody can argue that anything he did was not wrong. but to be shot for it is excessive, with the number of cops surrounding the bus, the distance between each other, the fact that he only had a knife makes it seem like a death could have been avoided.
if the kid had a knife that could trigger a bomb nearby (not srs) that would warrant getting shot.. not just holding a knife though.. there could be more to it though, who knows.
I'm curious how posters here can downplay the egregiousness of knives.
i get what you're saying. nobody can argue that anything he did was not wrong. but to be shot for it is excessive, with the number of cops surrounding the bus, the distance between each other, the fact that he only had a knife makes it seem like a death could have been avoided.
if the kid had a knife that could trigger a bomb nearby (not srs) that would warrant getting shot.. not just holding a knife though.. there could be more to it though, who knows.
So what you're saying is that cops should only shoot someone if they have the ability to kill hundreds if not thousands with a flick of the switch. Reminds me of something recent, in a city called Boston....... That situation seemed pretty similar in that they ended up shooting the perpetrator who was confined and hiding in a boat. Yeah he killed and hurt many people days prior, but when he was shot, he w as hidden and had nowhere to go, yet people didn't say he was excessively shot at because of what he did previously at the marathon. Is that what it takes for people to not criticize the police? For someone to have killed innocent people rather than preventing people from brig hurt other first place?
The ones that are "sheltered" are the ones that think the outcome could have beside rent because they watched it differently in a movie or show. This is real life with split second decisions.
And for the last time there want a lot of distance between the perp and the cops. Why don't you stand 15feet.. Even 20 away from a friend and have him run at you with a knife I his hand and see how much time you have to react and defend yourself. Remember, a knife can do severe damage. The police are not gong to wait someone or one of their colleagues to be stabbed or attacked until they attempt to stop the threat. If you think you can or know better, join the police and show us all howit should be done.
good points. at this point all you can hope is that they weighed out the outcomes in their heads and decided this was the best way to end it.
it simply seems as if more could have been done before shooting. the kid was in the bus, would've had to jump off the stairs to make a move at the cops, at one point he actually disappears from the footage as he backs up into the bus. if he were to make a move, surely 1 of the few cops pointing guns at him could fire.
the cops never backed themselves up trying to create that safe distance between them and the kid. they never communicated much.. might have been a good idea to tell the kid he would be shot if he didn't drop the knife or something, you would think that should be standard protocol before killing somebody.. either way this is just a bit of speculation until more details are revealed.
^ And that is why he was shot.
No officer will risk his life because of one guy whos gone off the rocker.
Remember Vince Li beheading? Murders a man on the bus, no rounds fired, dropped by the good ole taser.
Literally a guy who went off the rocker.
There are alternative ways to deal with situations such as this, the public wants to know why 9 shots were fired and why was he zapped when he was already dying from gunshot wounds.
I wouldn't be surprised if this received a public hearing along with a case before a judge and jury. Remember when the Polish guy was zapped multiple times?
Remember Vince Li beheading? Murders a man on the bus, no rounds fired, dropped by the good ole taser.
Literally a guy who went off the rocker.
There are alternative ways to deal with situations such as this, the public wants to know why 9 shots were fired and why was he zapped when he was already dying from gunshot wounds.
I wouldn't be surprised if this received a public hearing along with a case before a judge and jury. Remember when the Polish guy was zapped multiple times?
Yea people do remember Vince li... That's probably why this kid was shot rather an be given the benefit of the doubt. And yes, people do remember the yvr incident , which the police did use alrnatve measures.... See where that got them. It's a lose lose pretty much every time if you're a cop. You'll always have people criticizing... But hey that's part of the jb I guess, dealing with ignorant and naive critics.
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