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Old 08-02-2013, 08:40 AM   #151
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Clearly you have a problem with comprehension. The only "predictable part" that I was referring to is, if the teenager were to attack, he *must* walk through the street car's door first, regardless of the mode of attack he plans on taking. That is the completely predictable part, and because of that certainty, the cops will have the extra split second to respond however they choose to should the threat materializes (probably opening fire on him).

Until the teenager engages in that completely predictable move (to pass through the street car's door prior to mounting an attack), there is no immediate danger to anyone because the situation is entirely contained. And thus there is no immediate need for the police to open fire the way they did.

It's the meaningless loss of a life we are talking about here, but obviously you cannot wrap your head around that.
Here's something that no one seemed to mention or really think about.
He does not need to leave the bus at all.
If he were to move to the front of the bus he would be able to work the controls to close all the doors of the bus.
He would also have access to the controls to DRIVE THE BUS.
That's a 4 ton tank of a vehicle that could be used against anyone in his path.

Just something to consider when talking about where he can go and what he can do. His movement constituted an ever increasing risk for the people and property around him. His abilities were not know (could have had a bomb, could have had a gun) and the police reacted to his aggression with force....this is what the police are trained to do.

I don't understand why people debate this, there is a simple solution to the whole issue. You pose a threat to the public and property and when instructed to stop by the people who uphold the law, expect to not make it home for dinner that night.

Give your head a shake, the guy was out to hurt or kill people, he got exactly what he deserved. If he were to have listened this would be different.
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Old 08-02-2013, 09:22 AM   #152
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Here's something that no one seemed to mention or really think about.
He does not need to leave the bus at all.
If he were to move to the front of the bus he would be able to work the controls to close all the doors of the bus.
He would also have access to the controls to DRIVE THE BUS.
That's a 4 ton tank of a vehicle that could be used against anyone in his path.

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...
one thing that we havent taken into consideration is the location that the suspect was held up in the first place. it is possible that the suspect could have taken control of the trolley. this would have resulted in a vehicle chase where

A) the police have lost control of the situation and are now scrambling in their vehicles to try to stop a trolley bus

B) more officers lives as well as the publics safety is now in danger.
...

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Old 08-02-2013, 09:32 AM   #153
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Old 08-02-2013, 09:43 AM   #154
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Saying it's too easy so you don't retort is like saying you could've fucked this girl but didn't wanna. Right, like everybody will believe you there. Were it too easy, then it wouldn't have been a problem refuting.
I'm sorry to know that you speak from personal 1st hand experience.

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Back on topic:

You're assuming the following:
a) A person who has been shot 3 or 4 times is incapacitated and neutralized
b) All 3 or 4 shots hit something vital enough to disable the target
c) A person who is down is already incapable of harm.

Again, we go back to my argument which is: Your assumptions gamble the lives of police officers. For someone who pretends they value human life so much that they will give a would-be murderer, the benefit of the doubt, you seem really indifferent about the lives and safety that of the police officers who Yatim came at. I find it kinda ironic.
I'm quite busy today, so I'll just say this -- judging by the distance, the police was maybe 3 - 5 meters away from the suspect? And the suspect was really, really slow moving. If the police can't disable him in one burst of 3 shots at that kind of distance, with that kind of movement speed, then I really don't want to know what kind of firmarms / shooting training they receive.

And I am not even going to talk about the use of force training that any police officer receives.
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Old 08-02-2013, 10:06 AM   #155
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I'm quite busy today, so I'll just say this -- judging by the distance, the police was maybe 3 - 5 meters away from the suspect? And the suspect was really, really slow moving. If the police can't disable him in one burst of 3 shots at that kind of distance, with that kind of movement speed, then I really don't want to know what kind of firmarms / shooting training they receive.

And I am not even going to talk about the use of force training that any police officer receives.
Someone in the thread already pointed out - that unless a shot is able to sever the spinal cord - it's very possible that someone takes 3 shots to the center of mass and still be able to walk/run normally. Usually it's when the shot either hits a major organ or blood vessel, does the massive drop in blood pressure drop the person.

Police Officers and Armed Forces Personnel have all seen people hit by 5 or 6 bullets, and in the heat of things - adrenalin pumping, just shrug it off and keep charging.

Compound this with the possibility of drugs/alcohol, and/or mental illness - if the suspect hasn't dropped down to the ground yet, you assume that he can still jump those two steps between him and you and attack you.

As well - you're assuming that all 3 shots hit him in the center of mass. It's very possible that one or more of the shots hit him in non critcal parts, such as the arm - or miss completely.
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Old 08-02-2013, 10:56 AM   #156
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judging by the distance, the police was maybe 3 - 5 meters away from the suspect? And the suspect was really, really slow moving. If the police can't disable him in one burst of 3 shots at that kind of distance, with that kind of movement speed, then I really don't want to know what kind of firmarms / shooting training they receive.
If you want to find out first hand how difficult it is, I can try to set up a club night at the DVC shooting range in PoCo.

Your reasoning is flawed. When a person is hyped up on drugs or adrenaline, they can act as if they have super human strength or is immune to pain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysterical_strength
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Old 08-02-2013, 01:11 PM   #157
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Lunch break...

If you look at the video again, the officer fired his rounds like this:

- shots 1,2,3
- 5 to 6 sec wait
- shots 4,5
- pause
- shot 6, very brief pause, shot 7
- pause
- shot 8
- pause
- shot 9

At which point do you consider the rounds excessive?

For me, my position is as follows:

- I find the first shot was fired pre-maturely. I think the police should wait a bit longer until it becomes obvious that the threat is materializing. 1 step towards the door is against the police's orders, but that does not constitute a threat yet. If he tries something more than that, say, aggressively walking down the stairs, then yes, it becomes appropriate to open fire.

- The 5 or 6 second wait after the first 3 shots was appropriate. But now ask yourself, why was the same (or at least similar) wait not given after shots 4 and 5? or after shots 6 and 7? Is the suspect really still capable of being a threat after the 5th shot? the 7th shot? I agree the first 3 shots was not excessive (although the firing was still pre-mature). But somewhere between that 3rd and 9th shot, the number of rounds fired and the all-too-brief assessment pauses just stopped working for me. I can't exactly decide when the use of lethal force became excessive, but by the 9th shot, I'm pretty damn sure it was too much.

Also, I am going to assume that every single one of those 9 shots hit the suspect more or less where the officer intended (center of mass, probably?). This is 3 - 5 meters we are talking about, not 10 or 15 or 20 like it is at the handgun shooting range. The operator of the firearm can't possibly be considered proficient if he can't even hit his slow moving / non-moving target within a 5m range, and police officers are supposed to be proficient with their firearms. I am not asking for Olympic gold marksmanship. I am just asking for basic proficiency.

For those that are thinking the guy could take off in the street car, do you think he can just drive it off like we would in our regular daily driver? A street car runs off the tracks, and the controls are generally completely different than cars. If the suspect was reaching for the controls, then I agree the police should open fire. But obviously the suspect couldn't have been reaching for the controls -- if he was, the police would have had to move and shift their angle to maintain a direct line of sight for firing.

Back to work now.
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Old 08-02-2013, 01:18 PM   #158
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9 shots fired doesn't necessarily mean all 9 shots hit the target. Most cops are trained to shoot until the threat is neutralized, usually unloading an entire magazine(15-17 rounds for a pistol) and then reloading before re-assessing the situation.
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Old 08-02-2013, 02:13 PM   #159
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Still amazed at how Traum is trying to break apart the video like he knows what it is like to

a) be a cop
b) be in a situation like that
c) predict the exact movements and how one should react in such an event
d) receive training that police officers do
e) know how it is like to fire a firearm in an uncontrolled adrenaline filled situation
f) know everything about this kid to be comfortable enough to know exactly how much distance to give, and know whether the kid only has a knife, and no other weapons/motives

and example of excited delirium... and these are females....


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Old 08-02-2013, 02:40 PM   #160
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if you're dumb enough to pull out a knife in a threatening way, you deserve to be shot. this was not a bag of skittles.
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Old 08-02-2013, 03:30 PM   #161
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Can we just end this thread?

Yes, in hindsight, the cops *could* have done a few actions slightly differently that would have been optimal for the situation.

However.. Yes, they did act reasonably given the circumstance, pressure and situation.
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Old 08-02-2013, 03:59 PM   #162
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This is 3 - 5 meters we are talking about, not 10 or 15 or 20 like it is at the handgun shooting range. The operator of the firearm can't possibly be considered proficient if he can't even hit his slow moving / non-moving target within a 5m range, and police officers are supposed to be proficient with their firearms. I am not asking for Olympic gold marksmanship. I am just asking for basic proficiency.
DVC lanes are 17 yards long so the targets are at most 15 meters away.
But the targets can be moved to just a few meters away or closer if you really wanted it.
Find a day, go to the range and fire a few rounds and then come back to discuss.
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Old 08-02-2013, 04:53 PM   #163
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DVC lanes are 17 yards long so the targets are at most 15 meters away.
But the targets can be moved to just a few meters away or closer if you really wanted it.
Find a day, go to the range and fire a few rounds and then come back to discuss.
there's no point arguing with him. Whatever he has in his head, it is what he believes. He obviously KNOWS better than anyone here on the topic of Police force, and firearms.
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Old 08-02-2013, 05:42 PM   #164
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I'm sorry to know that you speak from personal 1st hand experience.
Keep telling yourself that. I'm not the wacko that's lining my house up in tin foil because of EMF paranoia




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I'm quite busy today, so I'll just say this -- judging by the distance, the police was maybe 3 - 5 meters away from the suspect? And the suspect was really, really slow moving. If the police can't disable him in one burst of 3 shots at that kind of distance, with that kind of movement speed, then I really don't want to know what kind of firmarms / shooting training they receive.

And I am not even going to talk about the use of force training that any police officer receives.

You're obviously not, considering how much you've invested in this thread and continue to invest. All these, it's too easy to refute... too busy for this... is all just plain-as-day cop out arguments.


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there's no point arguing with him. Whatever he has in his head, it is what he believes. He obviously KNOWS better than anyone here on the topic of Police force, and firearms.
The dude is obviously just arguing for the sake of arguing, plainly because somebody died. However I have my suspsicions...

1) He wouldn't argue any different if Yatim died of 4 shot or 9. He would still argue excessive
2) He wouldn't argue any different if he died by traditional bullets, rubber bullets or by tazer a-la-Dzienkanski. He would still argue for mediation
3) He wouldn't argue any different if he died inside the bus nor outside. He would still argue there's still distance.



When a guy has every intent to attack you with a knife, and is even egging you on, and is the one who made the first move and given those extremities you can still argue for this guy... there's really no chance you're going reaching these people

Unless Yatim didn't die, I can't ever see the police escaping criticism on this one. But what i think people fail to see is that Yatim going unharmed is probably only a "best case scenario" for both the police and Yatim. Unfortunately, each action Yatim took just made it more and more impossible to acheive this "best case scenario".

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Old 08-02-2013, 05:57 PM   #165
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DVC lanes are 17 yards long so the targets are at most 15 meters away.
But the targets can be moved to just a few meters away or closer if you really wanted it.
Find a day, go to the range and fire a few rounds and then come back to discuss.
I will gladly take him AND PAY FOR IT MYSELF!

I guarantee he will not be able to hit something at the 7 yard line with 0 stress and no distraction.
Even the worlds best shooters would be hard pressed to land a shot when your heart is pounding out of your chest, and you are fearing for your life.

I have shoot competition for a number of years now and I can shoot well enough, but you add the fear for your life factor and I bet you my shot drops down significantly.
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Old 08-02-2013, 07:02 PM   #166
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Fails everyone's posts. Nothing to say.

Noir, please send link of Tim foil thread, lol.
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Old 08-02-2013, 08:12 PM   #167
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If you want to get a very small idea of how hard it is to shoot someone centre mass under stress, watch ultimate soldier challenge's kill box scenarios. keeping in mind that all their participants are military or ex-mil shooting simunition rounds.
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Old 08-02-2013, 08:12 PM   #168
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I will gladly take him AND PAY FOR IT MYSELF!

I guarantee he will not be able to hit something at the 7 yard line with 0 stress and no distraction.
Even the worlds best shooters would be hard pressed to land a shot when your heart is pounding out of your chest, and you are fearing for your life.

I have shoot competition for a number of years now and I can shoot well enough, but you add the fear for your life factor and I bet you my shot drops down significantly.
not sure why you were failed for this post, other than potentially this line

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I guarantee he will not be able to hit something at the 7 yard line with 0 stress and no distraction.
which would indicate he has some firearms experience. if not, take boosted up on his offer and get some insight...hell i wouldn't mind for a free day at the gun range
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Old 08-02-2013, 08:49 PM   #169
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not sure why you were failed for this post, other than potentially this line



which would indicate he has some firearms experience. if not, take boosted up on his offer and get some insight...hell i wouldn't mind for a free day at the gun range
Lets go out. Always good to get new people out an enjoying the sport.

I was failed because I failed all there posts in this thread.
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Old 08-02-2013, 10:48 PM   #170
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I will gladly take him AND PAY FOR IT MYSELF!

I guarantee he will not be able to hit something at the 7 yard line with 0 stress and no distraction.
Even the worlds best shooters would be hard pressed to land a shot when your heart is pounding out of your chest, and you are fearing for your life.

I have shoot competition for a number of years now and I can shoot well enough, but you add the fear for your life factor and I bet you my shot drops down significantly.
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Lets go out. Always good to get new people out an enjoying the sport.

I was failed because I failed all there posts in this thread.
will you pay for me too?

i can bring my own guns

i'm an ok shot. i can hit 5 gallon propane tanks at 150 yards off hand with bulk winchester .22lrs from an iron sight bolt action

wouldnt mind spending some range time with a 9mm though.

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Old 08-02-2013, 10:54 PM   #171
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It would be cool to get a DVC meet together or something. I always enjoy going blasting with some new people.

I think this may be a bit OT in here tho. If anyone is up for it, shoot me a PM and we can figure something out.
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Old 08-04-2013, 08:25 AM   #172
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if i ever get free time one of these days i might take you up on it. only been to a range once in vegas and i believe i used a glock. tried to double tap ala cruise in colateral damage. did not work so well
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Old 08-04-2013, 10:31 AM   #173
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You know who is thankful for the police and their actions? These people right here...

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The Star spoke with three people who were on the streetcar before Sammy Yatim, 18, was shot and killed by police. Together, they tell the story of the last moments of the young manís life.

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Witnesses who were on the streetcar before Sammy Yatim was shot and killed by police describe a normal night shattered by a piercing scream. An otherwise quiet streetcar ride was thrown into chaos when he stood up, a knife in one hand and his penis in the other, and began advancing on the crowd.






Sammy Yatim: What happened, in the words of witnesses | Toronto Star
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Old 08-04-2013, 06:35 PM   #174
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Witnesses who were on the streetcar before Sammy Yatim was shot and killed by police describe a normal night shattered by a piercing scream. An otherwise quiet streetcar ride was thrown into chaos when he stood up, a knife in one hand and his penis in the other, and began advancing on the crowd.
This changes everything. I cry police brutality. The dude was ready to compete in the BME Pain Olympics and was rudely interrupted by the TO police.

Actually, it reminded me more of this.

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For those who are still following the developments of the case, and especially to those who thought the police did not use excessive force in this matter, the SIU has just pressed ahead with the following announcement this morning:

Sammy Yatim: Toronto Const. James Forcillo charged with murder in shooting death of man on TTC streetcar | Toronto Star

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... the officer who fired at him on an empty streetcar has been charged with second-degree murder by the provincial police watchdog.

...

“The Director of the Special Investigations Unit (SIU), Ian Scott, has reasonable grounds to believe that a Toronto Police Service (TPS) officer committed a criminal offence in relation to the shooting death of 18-year-old Sammy Adib Yatim in July of 2013,” a release said.
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