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Vancouver Off-Topic / Current EventsThe off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.
I shot the video above at 12:03am on Saturday July 27 from Bellwoods Avenue, just north of Dundas Street. Here is a timeline of events that I witnessed - starting before the video above was taken:
Until approx. 11:59pm: Victim sitting in the front right seat of the 505 Dundas streetcar, TTC operator standing over controls (unsure what operator was doing). A gathering of bystanders (estimated to be 15-20 people) standing along the north side of Dundas Street between Bellwoods Avenue and the laneway to the right of St. Agnes Church.
12:00am: Victim stands up and brandishes knife - TTC operator jumps off the streetcar through the front doors (both front and rear doors had already been open)
12:01am (Saturday): first Toronto Police officers arrive at the scene - approach heading eastbound toward the scene. Unsure of the exact numbers of officers.
12:03am: video above starts.
Throughout the exchange, officer(s) yelled "Drop the knife and come out" and "Drop the knife" several times, while another voice (assumed to be the victim) yelled "You're a f*cking p*ssy" several times. Other unintelligible things are shouted.
12:04am: One or more Toronto Police officers fire 3 shots, then a pause, followed by another burst of 6 shots. There are anywhere between 8-11 officers at the front doors of the cruiser. I hear what I believe is a taser fired. Shortly thereafter, one or two officers board the streetcar and one officers run on the back.
Toronto Police officer pulls cruiser up Bellwoods Avenue and parks crossing diagonally on the street, blocking Bellwoods. Bystanders are asked to back-up.
From 12:10am on: additional officers start marking off the area just north of Bellwoods Avenue and the area on Dundas Street just east of the streetcar with police tape. However, several pedestrians and cyclists continue to pass through the scene from east to west. Several cars pass by the scene from west to east on Dundas.
It appears that one officer has bent down - a bystander comments that it sounds like they are conducting CPR on the victim.
Constable Michael Choe approaches a group of 5 bystanders on Bellwoods Avenue, just north of Dundas Street - now behind the police tape - and asks if everyone is alright. He states that this may be a traumatic incident and that Victim Services are available. He then asks if there are any witnesses.
I offer up that I captured the entire scene on video and he pulls me aside to take my statement. He takes writes what I estimate to be 4-5 pages of notes in his notebook. During the exchange, he asks me to send the video to him via email, or if it's too large, to find another way to get it to him.
[While my statement is being taken, more police cruisers and bicycle officers arrive on the scene. At least one fire engine also arrives]
Approximately 10-15 minutes later (not sure exactly how much time the process has taken), another officer with a cycling helmet comes to Constable Choe and says "Buddy, are you taking statements? You gotta shut it down. No statements. Only contact details and that's it. We can't take statements on these types of incidents." He then says something else to Constable Choe that I cannot accurately remember. A bystander points out to the cycle officer that another officer (whose name I do not recall) is taking a woman's statement on the west side of Bellwoods Avenue. The cycle officer and Constable Choe yell over to this officer and tell him to stop taking statements. Constable Choe then turns back to me and thanks me for my time. He calls me back briefly to give me his card and writes the number for Victim Services on the back.
We leave the scene around 12:30am heading north on Bellwoods Avenue - the victim is still in the streetcar.
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Excessive much?? By the time the first shots are fired it looks like there are already 5 cops on the scene against the 1 guy in the train. Wasn't there any alternatives like shooting the non-lethal rounds at him?
i don't get it, he is holding a knife, why does he need to be shot 9 times? How about just once on his arm for him to drop his knife or once to the leg to immobilize him?
Normally, I'd usually believe that there is a good reason a cop fires his gun more than once unless proven otherwise. The video is so fucked. I don't understand any plausible situation other than he pulled out a gun that could warrant shots like that. A pocketknife and 25 feet away with no hostages is NOT an immediate threat to anyone. Maybe he was winding up to throw it? Either way I'm not incredibly sympathetic, but they aregoing to have a media nightmare on their hands because of the guilty until proven innocent crowd when it comes to cops. If someone begins threatening strangers in public while completely unprovoked and brandishing a weapon, their intentions weren't good. Sucks that someone young died I guess, but he's obviously not someone who is an upstanding citizen.
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Originally Posted by boostfever
Westopher is correct.
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seems like you got a dick up your ass well..get that checked
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Originally Posted by punkwax
Well.. I’d hate to be the first to say it, but Westopher is correct.
here come to keyboard commandos with the usual comments
"why didn't they shoot him in the arm"
"why didn't they shoot him in the leg"
"why didnt they just take him down, there were so many cops against the one dude"
"why didnt they use non-lethal force"
"why didnt they just tazer him"
etc
etc
etc
police are trained to shoot center mass, thats what their training and their muscle memory will do in a situation where they are hopped up on adrenaline and working under stress.
its shitty what happened to the dude on the tram and shooting 9 rounds into him was excessive
but then again everyone will just downplay the fact that he was threatening others with a knife and what not and the media will doll him up like an angel who became a victim.
edit:
its also possible that not all 9 rounds hit him. the article in thestar states that the man was taken to hospital with "a" gunshot wound which was fatal.
i don't get it, he is holding a knife, why does he need to be shot 9 times? How about just once on his arm for him to drop his knife or once to the leg to immobilize him?
If the kid is coming at the cop with a knife then there isnt time to aim and shoot an extremity as it is a smaller target to hit. And cops only shoot to kill.
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'suicide by cop'? it happens.
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But seriously should of used a 12 gauge, that way all the bystanders can see you only shot once
But seriously 9 shots... Maybe marksman training should be mandatory every 6 months.
Have you ever tried shooting a firearm? try shooting accurately while under all the stress and adrenaline, and at a target thats in a low light setting. Its quite a difficult shot.
9 rounds is not excessive. The guy was surrounded, easily 3 officers could have discharged 3 times each. 3 shots by 1 officer is not excessive. Even if it was 1 officer and he/she fired 9 shots, or 9 officers and 1 shot each, the guy should have put down the knife and got off the streetcar. Listen to commands or risk getting shot. Seems pretty straight forward.
Suicide by cop? Yeah, maybe. Pulled a knife on public transit and threaten other riders. I guess he got what he asked for.
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I wish they tried to pursue other methods first, it certainly looks like they had the time to attempt other methods, such as talk to him, like they would a jumper or someone with hostages, or even wait for whichever team members are able to initiate non-lethal means at subduing. After all he wasn't getting off the bus, he even retreated back into the bus from the door
i understand that there is a belief of increased risk the longer the situation is allowed to go on but they looked like they had the area under control and as mentioned the suspect had retreated to the middle of the bus
Have you ever tried shooting a firearm? try shooting accurately while under all the stress and adrenaline, and at a target thats in a low light setting. Its quite a difficult shot.
No sir, i do not believe in firearms.
Watch the videos again, it looks like 2 cops with their guns fully drawn with a few other ones about ready to draw their guns. The best one is the cop casually walking around too... Makes me question was the situation on that high of an alert?
The cops also paused briefly before unloading more rounds... They couldn't scan with their eyes to check if he was actually hit?
Btw wtf happened to negotiations? It's a knife for god sakes... Cops even negotiate with guys holding guns in houses...
I think it's justified. Clearly he didn't want to comply. It's a weapon. As much as people think cops are assholes and everything (some are), but they're human, they have family, friends, etc. If my dad was in there, I'd rather him shoot the guy than try to disarm him and take a stab to the throat.
In hindsight, they should've brought in some non-lethal weapons like bean bags and pepper balls.
I think it's justified. Clearly he didn't want to comply. It's a weapon. As much as people think cops are assholes and everything (some are), but they're human, they have family, friends, etc. If my dad was in there, I'd rather him shoot the guy than try to disarm him and take a stab to the throat.
In hindsight, they should've brought in some non-lethal weapons like bean bags and pepper balls.
Hmm, but from what I can see in the video, it looks like more of a standoff situation more than a "he's coming and attacking us" type situation.
I'm not going to play armchair detective, but would you still feel like this is justified, if the person was simply camped out on the bus with a knife and refusing to comply? It seems they have the whole bus surrounded, and they are standing a good distance from all sides of the bus...
I guess what I'm trying to say is, for a country where we are unwillingly to hand out the death sentence to the worst of the worst mass murderers and rapists, you seem to be quite okay that a person was shot here with tactics which does not involves de-esculation or sedation, but instead resulted in very quick death for a troubled teen. It just seemed like ... His life didn't matter, almost.
I think what striked me the most weird was the way the police officer in the bicycle helmet asked everyone not to take statements. Can someone in law enforcement give any insight on how that would be beneficial to this situation?
I wish they tried to pursue other methods first, it certainly looks like they had the time to attempt other methods, such as talk to him, like they would a jumper or someone with hostages, or even wait for whichever team members are able to initiate non-lethal means at subduing. After all he wasn't getting off the bus, he even retreated back into the bus from the door
i understand that there is greater risk the longer the situation is allowed to go on but they looked like they had the area under control and as mentioned the suspect had retreated to the middle of the bus
anyway what a shame
That's some pretty idealistic wishes. Instead of wishing what the cops should've done, why not instead wish what the kid should not have done in the first place; which is pull a knife to the public?
If you watch the video closely, the police officer shoots when the teen starts moving towards him. That was their first course of action - communication. All you people that say try negotiating/talking to him, I dont know what you are watching. Clearly, they cops tried that first. That to me is justified.
The teen holds a knife, and after being told countless number of times to drop it, he does not. He actively resists, and then, when he moves towards the officer, he displays assaultive/aggressive behaviour with the potential for death/grievous bodily harm (knife). Please refer to http://www.braidwoodinquiry.ca/repor...es/05-Nuff.jpg as this displays what police officers are trained with and what levels of force they are justified in using.
And now we have to hear friends and family tell the world how good of a guy he was, he would never hurt anyone, blah blah and how evil the police are, blah blah.
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Originally Posted by Noir
That's some pretty idealistic wishes. Instead of wishing what the cops should've done, why not instead wish what the kid should not have done in the first place; which is pull a knife to the public?
I don't think my wishes are far fetched considering police do that all the time, i don't entirely disagree with the way the situation was actually handled either i just wish other conceivable and in practice means were attempted first or given more time.
and of course there's a wish that crazy/unruly/undisciplined/depressed people will stop acting out the way they do but that's uncontrollable
2 cops with their guns fully drawn with a few other ones about ready to draw their guns. The best one is the cop casually walking around too... Makes me question was the situation on that high of an alert?
Let's suppose for a moment that you were 20 feet away from me and I was a knife wielding guy who had already threatened other people, would you be concerned? Yes, to answer your question. The "best cop" and the bystanders shooting video were able to do so because of the fact that at least two officers were ready to do whatever it took to ensure that nobody innocent became a victim that night.
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Originally Posted by $_$
I think what striked me the most weird was the way the police officer in the bicycle helmet asked everyone not to take statements. Can someone in law enforcement give any insight on how that would be beneficial to this situation?
It's most likely that they want to wait for a specific investigator or for the SIU (Ontario's IIO) to take statements and interview witnesses. Studies have shown that while memory decay after an event occurs quite rapidly, often within hours, going over an outline of the event immediately can actually damage memories of the event. In a case involving a police related fatality like this it is probably just protocol for the first/significant statement to be taken by a non-involved investigator.
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Hmm, but from what I can see in the video, it looks like more of a standoff situation more than a "he's coming and attacking us" type situation.
I'm not going to play armchair detective, but would you still feel like this is justified, if the person was simply camped out on the bus with a knife and refusing to comply? It seems they have the whole bus surrounded, and they are standing a good distance from all sides of the bus...
I guess what I'm trying to say is, for a country where we are unwillingly to hand out the death sentence to the worst of the worst mass murderers and rapists, you seem to be quite okay that a person was shot here with tactics which does not involves de-esculation or sedation, but instead resulted in very quick death for a troubled teen. It just seemed like ... His life didn't matter, almost.
I think what striked me the most weird was the way the police officer in the bicycle helmet asked everyone not to take statements. Can someone in law enforcement give any insight on how that would be beneficial to this situation?
Likewise, I can't see the inside of the bus so I'm only speculating. I'd like to think that the man made a move. Even one step forward towards an officer is an aggressive gesture.
Btw, I'm very pro death penalty. I'm not being hyperbolic, but I'd love to see public hangings. Graffiti and thievery should also get a very severe punishment like public lashings. And for convicted minors under the age of 21, their parents will be fined heavily, be required to attend parenting classes that will also cost them a butt load of money, and participate in community service like homeless outreach, veteran transportation or senior care.
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