SkyTrain won't take bus transfers with new Compass Card system

[Traum]

Originally Posted by Gridlock

Dude. I'm going to destroy your idea. Ready?

These are in no particular order, these are just thoughts as they are being forced out of my head because I'm exploding with the levels of dumb being experienced.

Gridlock,

My suggestion is not perfect nor completely thought out. There are probably flaws in it and details that I have overlooked. Graeme, for example, has pointed out a few oversights. So some royalties / fees will probably need to be paid to the system vendors. But lemme tell you, communication protocols and APIs exist for this kind of thing. It's just work that needs to be worked out, and it isn't rocket science. It doesn't cost $9M.

There is manufacturing involved, and let's say we'll need 150 machines instead of 46. But the expensive part lies in the engineering of these machines, not the manufacturing. Materials for test systems can't possibly cost that much.

For what it is worth, your point #2, 3, 4, and 7 are either missing the mark, or I don't see how they relate to why the transfer conversion machine is a bad idea. Graeme seems to have a much better understanding of what I am proposing, as does Tapioca.

At the end of the day, it really goes back to one very simple question -- should cash paying riders be charged twice for the same transit service? Telling everyone to get a compass card is not an answer to that question -- it is a workaround that may not be viable to 6000 people a day.

[Graeme S]

Originally Posted by Traum

At the end of the day, it really goes back to one very simple question -- should cash paying riders be charged twice for the same transit service? Telling everyone to get a compass card is not an answer to that question -- it is a workaround that may not be viable to 6000 people a day.

I think we need a refinement: "Should riders be charged twice for using a single service?" The answer to that is a no; however we cannot separate all riders into payment classes. Should we then look at people such as tourists who only have bills because places like New York which have a similar ticket system to ours make change? Or those who don't have cash because they haven't made it to the bank yet and want to pay with debit?

All kinds of people are inconvenienced every day on the bus and on the skytrain. I work at a Starbucks and there are several people who come in daily (not the same people) looking to break a bill because they need to get on the bus. These people understand that while not accepting bills is an inconvenience for them, it is also a reality of the limitations of the system. In that same way, people will realize that there are limitations in the new system.

[Gridlock]

Originally Posted by Traum

Gridlock,

My suggestion is not perfect nor completely thought out. There are probably flaws in it and details that I have overlooked. Graeme, for example, has pointed out a few oversights. So some royalties / fees will probably need to be paid to the system vendors. But lemme tell you, communication protocols and APIs exist for this kind of thing. It's just work that needs to be worked out, and it isn't rocket science. It doesn't cost $9M.

There is manufacturing involved, and let's say we'll need 150 machines instead of 46. But the expensive part lies in the engineering of these machines, not the manufacturing. Materials for test systems can't possibly cost that much.

For what it is worth, your point #2, 3, 4, and 7 are either missing the mark, or I don't see how they relate to why the transfer conversion machine is a bad idea. Graeme seems to have a much better understanding of what I am proposing, as does Tapioca.

At the end of the day, it really goes back to one very simple question -- should cash paying riders be charged twice for the same transit service? Telling everyone to get a compass card is not an answer to that question -- it is a workaround that may not be viable to 6000 people a day.

Points 2,3,4 and 7 nail this shit down.

You didn't account for the actual physical cost of the machine AT ALL.

So let's open up iCalc and figger it out.

1x dvd player costs 29.95(no name brand...cause cost savings, yo)
These machines would need to be 10x the size of a dvd player
Therefore, each machine should cost $299.50

x46 =$13,777 but we might need that actual 150 which would be $44925

So you are right, obviously those costs are nothing so that doesn't matter.

But you were right...we shouldn't have to accrue extra costs for testing. Ten engineers working for 9 months should have more than enough time to test the machines too. Lazy fuckers.

[Lomac]

I'm going to reiterate my previous post, but this time quoting directly from Translink:

He said there will be a transitional period in which both options will be accepted while TransLink teaches the public about its new system. During this time, retailers such as 7-11 will carry all available types of fare, including monthly and pre-loadable Compass Cards.

Both tickets will still be accepted during the transition period, after which only Compass cards will be allowed for both.

WHY THE FUCK are people still arguing about this? The transition time will allow cash users to swing by a 7-11 and pick up a goddamn Compass card so they wont have to worry about paying twice. And if they don't buy one and still complain about it, well it's their own goddamn fucking fault for not changing with the times.

[dinosaur]

[Gridlock]

Originally Posted by Lomac

I'm going to reiterate my previous post, but this time quoting directly from Translink:



Both tickets will still be accepted during the transition period, after which only Compass cards will be allowed for both.

WHY THE FUCK are people still arguing about this? The transition time will allow cash users to swing by a 7-11 and pick up a goddamn Compass card so they wont have to worry about paying twice. And if they don't buy one and still complain about it, well it's their own goddamn fucking fault for not changing with the times.

No one is actually on the logic of anything now. Now its "I can design a better system than Translink could"

Awesome!

I wish everyone would Homer Simpson themselves up their life-long dream of being a bureaucrat at Translink and sit everyone in the conference room and say, "ok...10 engineers cost us $150k each, and they have 9 months to design it this way" and see how well that conversation goes over.

I feel like there is a fortune to be made selling "I'm with Stupid" t-shirts.

[Traum]

Originally Posted by Gridlock

Points 2,3,4 and 7 nail this shit down.

You didn't account for the actual physical cost of the machine AT ALL.

Which is why I said there was $8M left for the manufacturing of the 46 machines. Clearly, building those 46 machines cannot use up all of the remaining $8M. I think you have completely missed that point.

Now, Graeme has correctly pointed out that we'll need more than 46 machines. I think it is reasonable to up that number to 150. But again, the expensive part is going to the be designing and engineering portion of the project. The manufacturing is going to be relatively cheap. I am not familiar with manufacturing myself, but I find it extremely difficult to believe that the manufacturing costs alone for 150 machines will eat up $8M.

And that brings us back to the point that Translink shouldn't have needed $9M to come up with a plan to accomodate the cash paying riders.

[bing]

Just get a damn compass card. It's only a $6 deposit. If you can't even do that, stay the fuck home. I get a Octopus every time I visit HK, it works fine.

Typical whining Vancouverites.

[stewie]

they should just give out those old school paper transfers that the busses used to have, and just go on the honor system if your jumping on a train


gridlock

2) So the machines on the buses now need to produce paper transfer tickets AND be compatible with compass cards...and that system is going to be free. So the new system would have to sit there right next to the old system.

aren't the new machines just a little tap on the pad like some of those smart credit cards? cant see that machine taking up to much space on a bus. (im not sure, im just going from what that picture was posting from a person leaving the bus and tapping it on the wall)

ps - with now having a compass card, will they be slowing down on the need to check fares while on the trains from the transit police? or will they have some little hand held reader that can scan and find out when the last payment was? cause im pretty sure a few people will either walk through the gate with friends( 1 pays, 5 walk through) or they just jump the gate.

that new system looks pretty small, don't see why they cant just keep the two of them...kinda like the border crossing...you got the nexus line...and the regular line.

these compass cards cost 6$ each? how soon will it be until people learn how to use credit card/debit card skimmers and steal others credits lol

either way I don't care, I don't use public transportation lol.

[Lomac]

Originally Posted by Traum

But again, the expensive part is going to the be designing and engineering portion of the project. The manufacturing is going to be relatively cheap. I am not familiar with manufacturing myself, but I find it extremely difficult to believe that the manufacturing costs alone for 150 machines will eat up $8M.

Retooling a production line for a limited run (and, yes, 150 units is a very small production run) costs a lot of money. Typically just retooling a plant will cost a couple million in and of itself, depending on what's needed and what has to be fabricated.

[Soundy]

Originally Posted by Traum

The first question that pops into mind is, why da fxxk would it cost a frickin $9M to retrofit all 46 Skytrain and Canada Line stations with some sort of machine to deal with the transfer ticket conversion situation?

Okay then, what WOULD be an acceptable break-even point? Is one million too much to spend? $100k? Remember now, you're not necessarily just talking one machine per station, but possibly two or three in high-volume stations (otherwise, God forbid they have to stand in line a little longer!), plus the required upkeep on them, all for something that SHOULD only be temporary anyway and will need to be removed and scrapped in the near future... good money after bad, anyone?

What it comes down to is this: THE NUMBER PEOPLE WHO WILL BE AFFECTED DOESN'T EVEN AMOUNT TO A STATISTICAL ANOMALY. The problem isn't that they can't manage it, the problem is that THEY CAN'T BE BOTHERED and expect hundreds of thousands of other people, who have no problem switching to the new system, to cover the cost of their selfishness.

How about this: I'd go along with catering to this tiny group, if they want to pay for the cost of doing it. Let's say the number is WAY off and it only costs $50k per station, all-in, conversion, installation, and maintenance included, to a whopping total of $2.3M (yeah, $50k * 46 stations adds up fast). Now let's divide that by 6,000 people who want to take advantage of this... that's $383.33 per person. Think they'd be happy to pay that?

I think they'd be better off paying the extra $3 per trip...

Good fucking job I don't think for myself, I'd never have been able to do the math...

[Traum]

Originally Posted by Lomac

Retooling a production line for a limited run (and, yes, 150 units is a very small production run) costs a lot of money. Typically just retooling a plant will cost a couple million in and of itself, depending on what's needed and what has to be fabricated.

Good point. At the same time, limited production runs happen all over the world all the time. How do those guys keep their costs in check? I am not asking for a hand-made soap box racer type of build. But this issue should come up frequent enough for there to be a cheaper solution, wouldn't you think?

[Soundy]

Originally Posted by Gridlock

I wish everyone would Homer Simpson themselves up their life-long dream of being a bureaucrat at Translink and sit everyone in the conference room and say, "ok...10 engineers cost us $150k each, and they have 9 months to design it this way" and see how well that conversation goes over.

Ladies and gentlemen, I present you... the new, improved, Traum-approved TRANSLINK!

Spoiler!

Edit: Hmmm, would that be TraumsLink then???

[bing]

Originally Posted by Traum

Which is why I said there was $8M left for the manufacturing of the 46 machines. Clearly, building those 46 machines cannot use up all of the remaining $8M. I think you have completely missed that point.

Now, Graeme has correctly pointed out that we'll need more than 46 machines. I think it is reasonable to up that number to 150. But again, the expensive part is going to the be designing and engineering portion of the project. The manufacturing is going to be relatively cheap. I am not familiar with manufacturing myself, but I find it extremely difficult to believe that the manufacturing costs alone for 150 machines will eat up $8M.

And that brings us back to the point that Translink shouldn't have needed $9M to come up with a plan to accomodate the cash paying riders.

you said it yourself, you are NOT familiar with the design nor any aspect of manufacturing at all. I think I'll trust the board on this one.

[Traum]

Originally Posted by Soundy

How about this: I'd go along with catering to this tiny group, if they want to pay for the cost of doing it. Let's say the number is WAY off and it only costs $50k per station, all-in, conversion, installation, and maintenance included, to a whopping total of $2.3M (yeah, $50k * 46 stations adds up fast). Now let's divide that by 6,000 people who want to take advantage of this... that's $383.33 per person. Think they'd be happy to pay that?

I think they'd be better off paying the extra $3 per trip...

Personally, I would look at the break-even analysis like this:

- 6000 per day paying double the fare
- 1 zone is $2.75.

So we are looking at 6000/day x $2.75 = $16500/day, or
$16.5k/day x 30 days = $495k/month, or
$16.5k/day x 365 days = $6,022,500/yr

So by only offering a Compass card to lure these cash paying riders away from paying cash, Translink stands to potentially bring in an extra $6M/yr by charging them twice.

I see where this is going now...

Realistically, with the Compass card being the only alternative (to getting charged twice), there will be a sizeable portion of casual transit users that switch to the Compass card instead. So pulling a percentage out of the hat, let's say Translink will still bring in an extra $4M (instead of $6M) per year by charging people twice.

And now the question becomes -- how much money should Translink spend to avoid double charging these paying customers? If they don't do anything, they stand to make an extra $4M a year.

I am not a rocket scientist nor a business analyst. I just happen to do some thinking out loud here on a public forum.

[bobbinka]

Originally Posted by Traum

I am not a rocket scientist nor a business analyst.

glad we got that sorted out

[Mr.HappySilp]

TransLink salary raises irk taxpayer watchdog | Vancouver 24 hrs

In the article it states
He said those with the old “proof of payment” bus tickets jumping SkyTrain gates when Compass is fully implemented will be considered fare evaders.

“Fare evasion and jumping gates (is) not a safe solution,” he said. “It’s much easier to get and use a Compass Card or ticket.”

Another option of installing machines at SkyTrain stations that would take old paper transfers and exchange them for a Compass-compatible card would have cost at least $9 million, Zabel added.

So now they are forcing people who pay cash to get on the bus to pay again. I still don't get it though. The bus fare is prof of payment so why can't I use it go on the skytrain? What if someone open the gates for me to go on or I don't have to jump the gates to go on? I am not endangering anyone that way. So now translink is denying bus fare to be prof of payment? If that's the case they should let poeple who pay cash to board the bus free at least for the frist month or so and have the bus driver advice people they need to get a compass.

[bing]

It's free with a $6 deposit and entitles the user to 14 per cent off the cost of the trip.

Traum: if this is true, what would be the long-term benefit of paying cash anyways? If you ride daily, you'd get a return on your "investment" quite quickly, notwithstanding it is a deposit.

[bobbinka]

I think there's an obvious solution to this.

-The card is $6, and there are 6000 people affected.
-Traum pays $36,000 to cover the costs of getting Compass cards for each person

problem solved! Taxpayers are happy, we're happy, the 6000 riders are happy, everyone's happy! don't worry Traum, it's just a deposit

[Traum]

Originally Posted by bing

Traum: if this is true, what would be the long-term benefit of paying cash anyways? If you ride daily, you'd get a return on your "investment" quite quickly, notwithstanding it is a deposit.

I don't know what the benefit is with paying cash in this case. But apparently, some people (6000 of them a day) prefer to continue using cash even if there is a monetary incentive to not do so.

But now that I have looked at the extra revenue that double charging people could bring in for Translink, I think that has to be part of the reason why they don't want to bother accommodating the cash-paying riders.

[Gridlock]

So conspiracy.

Is that your final answer?

[Traum]

Originally Posted by Gridlock

So conspiracy.

Is that your final answer?

Don't call it a conspiracy, Grid. Just look at the numbers yourself and come to your own conclusion.

[bobbinka]

Originally Posted by Traum

Don't call it a conspiracy, Grid. Just look at the numbers yourself and come to your own conclusion.

you mean, the numbers you admittedly pulled out of your hat? your non rocket scientist nor business analyst hat?

it's hard to draw a valid conclusion when the numbers are made up and the points don't matter

[Traum]

Originally Posted by bobbinka

you mean, the numbers you admittedly pulled out of your hat? your non rocket scientist nor business analyst hat?

it's hard to draw a valid conclusion when the numbers are made up and the points don't matter

Dude, have you read up on anything regarding this issue at all? The numbers I quoted are all based on known facts and info that Translink has released themselves:

- 6000 cash-paying riders per day that will be affected
- the fare for a 1 zone ticket is $2.75

So we are looking at 6000/day x $2.75 = $16500/day, or
$16.5k/day x 30 days = $495k/month, or
$16.5k/day x 365 days = $6,022,500/yr

This is a projected $6M's worth of extra revenue that Translink will receive based on nothing but factual figures.

I acknowledged that a portion of the $6M revenue will likely not materialize as people shift away from paying cash in order to avoid double paying. The only "number out of the hat" is how big that portion will be, but that one is really anybody's guess. We all know cash payment will never entirely go away.

[K-Dub]

Originally Posted by Traum

Personally, I would look at the break-even analysis like this:

- 6000 per day paying double the fare
- 1 zone is $2.75.

So we are looking at 6000/day x $2.75 = $16500/day, or
$16.5k/day x 30 days = $495k/month, or
$16.5k/day x 365 days = $6,022,500/yr

So by only offering a Compass card to lure these cash paying riders away from paying cash, Translink stands to potentially bring in an extra $6M/yr by charging them twice.

I see where this is going now...

Realistically, with the Compass card being the only alternative (to getting charged twice), there will be a sizeable portion of casual transit users that switch to the Compass card instead. So pulling a percentage out of the hat, let's say Translink will still bring in an extra $4M (instead of $6M) per year by charging people twice.

And now the question becomes -- how much money should Translink spend to avoid double charging these paying customers? If they don't do anything, they stand to make an extra $4M a year.

I am not a rocket scientist nor a business analyst. I just happen to do some thinking out loud here on a public forum.

Who in their right mind would continue their day by day transit, each time paying the double fare? Then the real idiocy here is the user, not the provider.

Lesson learned, get a Compass. This is just a forceful push from Translink to get people onto this new system.

OMG TRANSLINK IS DOING THIS ON PURPOSE TO MAKE +$6m / YEAR!! CONSPIRACY!

Fuck. Seriously.