SkyTrain won't take bus transfers with new Compass Card system

[dinosaur]

To add to what Graeme posted:

(prepare to lose your shit, transit haters)

Big TransLink salaries | Watch GlobalNews Videos

[stewie]

Originally Posted by dinosaur

To add to what Graeme posted:

(prepare to lose your shit, transit haters)

Big TransLink salaries | Watch GlobalNews Videos

don't know if theres any truth to this, maybe someone can shed some light on this for me...

was told by someone that the majority of the transit police officers are people who've already retired from another policing job, collecting their pention, and working as a transit officer now making the 100k a year as well.

anyone know?

[Gridlock]

Could happen.

You retire from policing. You still want to work. You become transit security. They roll into becoming transit police. Boom. You are a police officer again.

The fact that they make anything close to 6 digits is sad enough.

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by dinosaur

To add to what Graeme posted:

(prepare to lose your shit, transit haters)

Big TransLink salaries | Watch GlobalNews Videos

I think the most interesting stat in that feature was not management salaries, but the fact that 61% of staff in the headquarters are making 70K+. The way I see it, instead of complaining, many on here might as well sell their souls and join them. I bet that young Chinese spokeswoman fresh out of SFU's school of communications is probably making 60K+. Repeating a few lines in front of a camera isn't such a hard job, is it?

[bing]

Originally Posted by stewie

don't know if theres any truth to this, maybe someone can shed some light on this for me...

was told by someone that the majority of the transit police officers are people who've already retired from another policing job, collecting their pention, and working as a transit officer now making the 100k a year as well.

anyone know?

heard this from my criminology 330 prof as well.

this is a nice way to collect a second pension

[CP.AR]

Adelaide just updated their entire transit system to use a smart card, the switchover took place in November last year. It works really good and even has a transfer system! (2.50 can get you from the equivalent of SFU to Richmond!)

If Adelaide can have a good transit system, I don't know why Vancouver can't.

It's a more widespread city with even crazier divides between residential and commercial. Transit ridership numbers are even lower (by percentage), and last but not least... they chew up WAY less money than translink does

[SoNaRWaVe]

Originally Posted by stewie

don't know if theres any truth to this, maybe someone can shed some light on this for me...

was told by someone that the majority of the transit police officers are people who've already retired from another policing job, collecting their pention, and working as a transit officer now making the 100k a year as well.

anyone know?

definitely true

[doritos]

fuck transit, im beginning to think driving is cheaper, doesnt make sense to spend 30-40 bucks a day for me to get from white rock area to downtown. ill just pay 20 bucks gas for 3 dayss thanks

[AWDTurboLuvr]

Originally Posted by Amuro Ray

Adelaide just updated their entire transit system to use a smart card, the switchover took place in November last year. It works really good and even has a transfer system! (2.50 can get you from the equivalent of SFU to Richmond!)

If Adelaide can have a good transit system, I don't know why Vancouver can't.

It's a more widespread city with even crazier divides between residential and commercial. Transit ridership numbers are even lower (by percentage), and last but not least... they chew up WAY less money than translink does

Adelaide public transportation system is state run, so it gets much more funding than Translink does.

[i-VTEC]

Originally Posted by doritos

fuck transit, im beginning to think driving is cheaper, doesnt make sense to spend 30-40 bucks a day for me to get from white rock area to downtown. ill just pay 20 bucks gas for 3 dayss thanks

As more people realize this, people are driving to work, less people taking transit, then translink will propose to tax more on gas

[Soundy]

Originally Posted by CRS

As for the transfers, do you know much money it would be to build and maintain these machines for such a small population? The cost would likely be huge with absolutely no payoff because it will run large deficits. And guess who has to foot the bill? That's right! The tax payers. By actually not allowing these transfers, translink is actually saving you and me money so I do not have an issue with this at all.

TransLink operations manager was on with Mike Smyth yesterday, they covered this exact topic. As I recall, he said there are (or are expected to be) about 6,000 riders sticking to the cash/transfer method... and retrofitting ALL the SkyTrain stations with machines capable to handling them would run about $9M.

So... $9M to keep a whole 6,000 Luddites happy? Yeah, sounds like a good idea.

Just to put that number in perspective: found a report from mid-2011 projecting a record 211.3 million trips by the end of that year. Jan-Jun 2011, there were well over 110 million trips JUST on the buses, with 3M more on SeaBus, almost 40M on Expo and Millennium lines, 19M on Canada Line, and almost 1.5M via West Coast Express. Buses showed over 750,000 boardings PER WEEK in June 2011.

But by all means, let's drop another NINE MILLION so less than .01% of that number won't be inconvenienced...

[Traum]

Originally Posted by Soundy

TransLink operations manager was on with Mike Smyth yesterday, they covered this exact topic. As I recall, he said there are (or are expected to be) about 6,000 riders sticking to the cash/transfer method... and retrofitting ALL the SkyTrain stations with machines capable to handling them would run about $9M.

So... $9M to keep a whole 6,000 Luddites happy? Yeah, sounds like a good idea.

And just like every other lemming out there, you fell for the simple logic trap that Translink pulled on you.

The first question that pops into mind is, why da fxxk would it cost a frickin $9M to retrofit all 46 Skytrain and Canada Line stations with some sort of machine to deal with the transfer ticket conversion situation? As I have mentioned before, if it was really only around 6000 cash paying riders doing the bus-to-Skytrain change over, all that is really necessary is a single bus transfer-to-compass card conversion machine at each station. The machine only needs to read the info on the magnetic strip on the bus transfer card, and set the equivalent amount on the compass card. None of this is new or novel technology to Translink. It is only 46 machines they need, and the engineering design only needs to be done once. A 6000 person-per-day problem doesn't require a $9M Cadillac solution. Engineering consulting firms may charge a lot, but they can't possibly charge a frickin $9M for designing 46 machines.

I'll spell it out for you right here -- being the incredibly stupid and incompetent organization that it is, Translink is only proposing the most incredibly expensive option as the alternative to their stupid oversight (in how to handle this bus ticket to compass card situation during their project planning stage). Being the non-thinking lemming that you are, you failed to see the fallacy they proposed, and fell right into their stupidity trap.

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by Traum

The first question that pops into mind is, why da fxxk would it cost a frickin $9M to retrofit all 46 Skytrain and Canada Line stations with some sort of machine to deal with the transfer ticket conversion situation? As I have mentioned before, if it was really only around 6000 cash paying riders doing the bus-to-Skytrain change over, all that is really necessary is a single bus transfer-to-compass card conversion machine at each station. The machine only needs to read the info on the magnetic strip on the bus transfer card, and set the equivalent amount on the compass card. None of this is new or novel technology to Translink. It is only 46 machines they need, and the engineering design only needs to be done once. A 6000 person-per-day problem doesn't require a $9M Cadillac solution. Engineering consulting firms may charge a lot, but they can't possibly charge a frickin $9M for designing 46 machines.

I don't know... have you ever worked in procurement for a large organization? The $9 million figure doesn't actually sound ridiculous. I think it's a little disingenuous to accuse Translink of outright lies.

Even if Translink is making up numbers to justify its decision to forego cash transfers, I think it is the right decision that cash riders should pay more. This is the incentive to get people onto prepaid fares. This is how it's done everywhere else in the world.

[Traum]

Originally Posted by Tapioca

I don't know... have you ever worked in procurement for a large organization? The $9 million figure doesn't actually sound ridiculous. I think it's a little disingenuous to accuse Translink of outright lies.

Even if Translink is making up numbers to justify its decision to forego cash transfers, I think it is the right decision that cash riders should pay more. This is the incentive to get people onto prepaid fares. This is how it's done everywhere else in the world.

I am not accusing Translink of lying -- I'm saying they are stupid, incompetent, and only know how to adopt the most expensive and inefficient solutions.

With the $9M figure that Translink quoted, I speculate that Translink is probably thinking of a full meal deal solution where every fare gate is capable of handling the bus ticket-to-compass card transfer. In a perfect world, that would be a great solution. But in our resource-constrained real world, we do not require that extensive level of support for the cash paying riders. All they need is a little something that will do the trick. You do not need a nuke to squash a fly.

Again, I agree that cash paying riders should pay more, but they shouldn't need to pay twice to use the same service.

[Lomac]

You guys are failing to understand something... BOTH systems will be in place during the transition period, meaning those who bought a ticket with cash on a bus will STILL be able to use the Skytrain. It's once this transition period ends is when the transfer will no longer be valid.

If these cash users haven't caught on by the time the transition period ends, it's their own damn fault for not switching.

[Spoon]

nvm found out what i was asking

[DragonChi]

You know... the first time you goto a SkyTrain with cash. Tell the bus driver that you don't want to pay twice and next time you'll have a compass card.... If you're cool about it, usually the drivers don't care and they're usually reasonable.

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by Traum

I am not accusing Translink of lying -- I'm saying they are stupid, incompetent, and only know how to adopt the most expensive and inefficient solutions.

With the $9M figure that Translink quoted, I speculate that Translink is probably thinking of a full meal deal solution where every fare gate is capable of handling the bus ticket-to-compass card transfer. In a perfect world, that would be a great solution. But in our resource-constrained real world, we do not require that extensive level of support for the cash paying riders. All they need is a little something that will do the trick. You do not need a nuke to squash a fly.

Again, I agree that cash paying riders should pay more, but they shouldn't need to pay twice to use the same service.

And how do you know that a simpler solution would cost less? Do you know anything about ticket vendor machine technology?

I don't work for Translink and I don't have any vested interest in the organization, but having worked for the largest organization in the country, I get sick and tired of laypeople throwing around accusations that the people who get paid good money by working for public organizations, like Translink, are grossly incompetent. In my opinion, unless people have worked in the inside or are consultants themselves, people should temper the baseless accusations of incompetence.

People should always question decisions that involve taxpayer dollars, but to throw around an accusation that someone/an organization is incompetent without having sufficient information about what went into those decisions make the accuser an idiot.

[Gridlock]

I will tell you all straight up that a journalist could completely change the nature of this debate solely in the way they write an article.

I know this, because I know that very few people that are upset by this actually read the issue to begin with.

If I were to write it as, "Translink is paying 25 million dollars in the Compass Card rollout to appease the 6000 daily riders that pay a cash fare on the bus that transfer to skytrain. The 6000 riders represent .4% of the daily 1.2 million riders...."

The entire debate would be re-shaped as the wasteful spending by Translink trying to appease everybody.

How do I know this? Because every three weeks when a "fuck Translink" thread starts up, the conversation is related to how much money they spend on shit.

So maybe the next time we're all "fuck translink" we can try to be a bit consistent...fuck them for not spending shit loads of money, or fuck them for spending shit loads of money.

Because a company, any company, even translink should in theory be able to win somehow.

[Traum]

Tapioca, please realize that laypersons do not necessarily mean they are stupid people. Just because they are not experts in the field doesn't mean they have no idea of how things work on a broad scale.

With 6000 cash paying riders a day and 46 Skytrain and Canada Line stations around, that's an average of 130 transactions per station per day. It is perfectly adequate to have a single ticket conversion machine at each skytrain / Canada Line station to look after their needs.

So let's say Translink wants to engineer that machine from scratch. And let's assume an engineer capable of working on this project makes $150k/yr. And let's say we'll need a team of 10 such engineers. Based on my own experience in the technology field, a project like this shouldn't take more than 6 months to complete. So let's say we give them 9 months to pull this one through.

Salary-wise, that's $150k x 10 engineers x 9 months = $1.125M

I think I am being generous with my above estimates. None of the technology required is new or novel, so there should be no R&D involved. It is just a matter of sitting down to come up with a design, do a bunch of testing, and then you are ready to deploy.

So now, lemme ask you this -- does it cost $8M to manufacture and install 46 machines along the Skytrain and Canada Line stations?

If this is not incompetence on Translink's part, I don't know what is.

Originally Posted by Tapioca

And how do you know that a simpler solution would cost less? Do you know anything about ticket vendor machine technology?

I don't work for Translink and I don't have any vested interest in the organization, but having worked for the largest organization in the country, I get sick and tired of laypeople throwing around accusations that the people who get paid good money by working for public organizations, like Translink, are grossly incompetent. In my opinion, unless people have worked in the inside or are consultants themselves, people should temper the baseless accusations of incompetence.

People should always question decisions that involve taxpayer dollars, but to throw around an accusation that someone/an organization is incompetent without having sufficient information about what went into those decisions make the accuser an idiot.

[Nlkko]

You're just pulling numbers out of your ass. Everything would be so cheap if all it takes is to pay a bunch of engineers.
Posted via RS Mobile

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by Traum

Tapioca, please realize that laypersons do not necessarily mean they are stupid people. Just because they are not experts in the field doesn't mean they have no idea of how things work on a broad scale.

With 6000 cash paying riders a day and 46 Skytrain and Canada Line stations around, that's an average of 130 transactions per station per day. It is perfectly adequate to have a single ticket conversion machine at each skytrain / Canada Line station to look after their needs.

So let's say Translink wants to engineer that machine from scratch. And let's assume an engineer capable of working on this project makes $150k/yr. And let's say we'll need a team of 10 such engineers. Based on my own experience in the technology field, a project like this shouldn't take more than 6 months to complete. So let's say we give them 9 months to pull this one through.

Salary-wise, that's $150k x 10 engineers x 9 months = $1.125M

I think I am being generous with my above estimates. None of the technology required is new or novel, so there should be no R&D involved. It is just a matter of sitting down to come up with a design, do a bunch of testing, and then you are ready to deploy.

So now, lemme ask you this -- does it cost $8M to manufacture and install 46 machines along the Skytrain and Canada Line stations?

If this is not incompetence on Translink's part, I don't know what is.

What makes you think that a team of engineers on contract could come up with a compatible system with no materials, and no R&D in a matter of months? It usually makes more sense to buy a solution from your original supplier - the key thing is that Translink has to buy such a system in the first place instead of "engineering" it themselves.

How many organizations have the ability to hire engineers on contract to design, build, and test products? Perhaps multinationals, but not an organization the size of Translink.

If it were really that simple, I'm sure you could easily write a proposal to Translink (I'm being serious.)

[AzNightmare]

Originally Posted by doritos

fuck transit, im beginning to think driving is cheaper, doesnt make sense to spend 30-40 bucks a day for me to get from white rock area to downtown. ill just pay 20 bucks gas for 3 dayss thanks

WHY would you spend 30-40 bucks a day on commute?

Don't use cash to pay if you're going from White Rock to Downtown.

[Graeme S]

I like your idea in theory; a farecard -> compass card converter, but let's remember: there will be a faregate at every entrance to every station, so having a single machine at each station will be problematic. Waterfront station has three entrances; Burrard one, but two at Stadium, three (four?) at Commercial... and so suddenly that one machine per station has now gone up. Now, we need to contract out a new machine and in order to do that we'll have to do it separate of the existing changover contract, since this was an expected 'outage' and would not have been covered by the existing one. So now we have to engineer a new machine, install it in convenient locations at all entrances of all non-bus transit services (WCE, Seabus, Skytrain)...and all for 0.4% of each daily ridership.


Could this have been handled better? Yes. Is this something of a fiasco? Kind of...but a lot to do with how it's worded in the media. Like Grid said, the way you put things changes everything.

TRANSLINK FAILS TO KEEP SYSTEM CONSISTENT
vs
TRANSLINK PUSHES FOR EFFICIENCY IN NEW SYSTEM

Really, depending on whose side you're writing on you could do it either way. My mom, hardly a frequent transit user, recently asked me if she could get a compass because she thought it would be easier than dealing with change and tickets and all that jazz. She's ancient and is already open to the new system that hasn't even started yet. Sure she'll have some hiccoughs along the way, but the future is now. Sure, we can bitch and complain about what's happened...but c'est la vie.

[Gridlock]

Originally Posted by Traum

Tapioca, please realize that laypersons do not necessarily mean they are stupid people. Just because they are not experts in the field doesn't mean they have no idea of how things work on a broad scale.

With 6000 cash paying riders a day and 46 Skytrain and Canada Line stations around, that's an average of 130 transactions per station per day. It is perfectly adequate to have a single ticket conversion machine at each skytrain / Canada Line station to look after their needs.

So let's say Translink wants to engineer that machine from scratch. And let's assume an engineer capable of working on this project makes $150k/yr. And let's say we'll need a team of 10 such engineers. Based on my own experience in the technology field, a project like this shouldn't take more than 6 months to complete. So let's say we give them 9 months to pull this one through.

Salary-wise, that's $150k x 10 engineers x 9 months = $1.125M

I think I am being generous with my above estimates. None of the technology required is new or novel, so there should be no R&D involved. It is just a matter of sitting down to come up with a design, do a bunch of testing, and then you are ready to deploy.

So now, lemme ask you this -- does it cost $8M to manufacture and install 46 machines along the Skytrain and Canada Line stations?

If this is not incompetence on Translink's part, I don't know what is.

Dude. I'm going to destroy your idea. Ready?

These are in no particular order, these are just thoughts as they are being forced out of my head because I'm exploding with the levels of dumb being experienced.

1) You've allotted 10 people to the job and 9 months to do it. And you think that's all folks! You should have 46 working machines at the end of it.

2) So the machines on the buses now need to produce paper transfer tickets AND be compatible with compass cards...and that system is going to be free. So the new system would have to sit there right next to the old system.

3) You are just instinctively smarter than ANYONE AND EVERYONE employed at Translink because your smart phone has a calculator app

4) You don't actually need to manufacture 46 of these "wonder machines" to actually have them in place. They are free

5) You realize that Translink isn't actually Stark Enterprises and they don't have a team of engineers developing this stuff in house. They buy systems from vendors that produce 'transit system money box things'. They have procurement people research out different systems, and buy the one that works the best within budget

5b) With that, they don't actually OWN the software that these things run on, because they just bought a box that turns reading coins into a paper ticket with a printed mag stripe. Yet, you want the "Translink Skunk Works" department to jimmy up a box that combines the mag stripe paper into a compass card thing that turns money into fucking magic to please 6000 people that don't have $6 to devote to buying a compass card.

6) There is a solution to this...ready? ARE YOU READY? BUY A COMPASS CARD AND USE IT

7) In your world we don't need to test our mystery device. The 10 engineers over 9 months have to produce the magic machine right the first time, and it needs to work right out of the box all the time when it gets hit, punched, pissed on, pissed in, pissed around, shit on, and treated with utter disdain. Should it not work, there will be hell to pay

I'm sorry...do I need to continue?