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Vancouver Off-Topic / Current EventsThe off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.
How I know some vaccines work....
Just look up the prevalence or incidence of polio. The prevalence of polio is less than 1% according to the World Health Organization.
There is no cure for polio, it can only be prevented. Polio vaccine, given multiple times, can protect a child for life.
How effective is the flu shot? Pretty shitty. In every flu shot, there are only three strains in each shot. How many strains of the flu are there? Over 300. So there is a pretty low chance of the flu shot actually being effective. Though, I was looking up incidence this year of the flu shot and the effectiveness of this years flu shot was actually very high. I don't have the study and i'm too lazy to find it, but this years flu shot was highly effective vs. the years past where the flu shot was not very effective.
Should you vaccinate your child with the Mumps, Measels, Rubella vaccine? I would. Can you get away with not vaccinating your kid with it? Yes.
If you live in a highly populated city, then the heard immunity is very high, I think it's around 90+%. So the chances your kid will get a MMR disease is pretty low, so not vaccinating your kid isn't the end of the world. Though, if everyone thought like this, then the heard immunity would be really low.
If you live in cottage country or in the burbs and the heard immunity is low, then I would probably vaccinate my kid. Unless someone actually finds me an actual peer reviewed article that says vaccinations are harmful, then you can't really argue otherwise. Just to clarify, just because the flu vaccine isn't always effective, doesn't mean it's harmful.
Yes, there are about 170 000 measles deaths per years world wide (2008 figures), but, as the World Health Organisation (WHO) states:
“The overwhelming majority (more than 95%)of measles deaths occur in countries with low per capita incomes and weak health infrastructures…Most measles deaths are caused by complications associated with the diseases” and
“Severe measles is more likely among poorly nourished young children, especially those with insufficient vitamin A, or whose immune systems have been weakened by HIV/AIDS or other diseases…. As high as 10% of measles cases result in death among populations with high levels of malnutrition and lack of adequate health care”1
Are children in Europe and the United States suffering from malnutrition?
Does your child have HIV/AIDS?
If not, why all the fuss?
The trend is positively on the decline! Can we just think about it, why is all the credit going to Vaccination but not the advancement of medical treatment post-infection or better hygiene in the developed world and better nutritional value plus better parenting education of sickness management?
Why are you giving credits to the "synthetic oil you put in your car" so it runs trouble-free? Don't you give credit to yourself for being " a good responsible owner, regular oil change and having a competent trusty mechanic from RS sponsor page" ( pardon me for the REVSCENE metaphor)
The trend is positively on the decline! Can we just think about it, why is all the credit going to Vaccination but not the advancement of medical treatment post-infection or better hygiene in the developed world and better nutritional value plus better parenting education of sickness management?
Why are you giving credits to the "synthetic oil you put in your car" so it runs trouble-free? Don't you give credit to yourself for being " a good responsible owner, regular oil change and having a competent trusty mechanic from RS sponsor page" ( pardon me for the REVSCENE metaphor)
To be fair, if you're going to make a car-based example, you might want to consider this a proper break-in of the engine before tearing it up.
Also, people are praising the vaccine because the types of care that we receive are much better these days, and are not really as optional as the vaccine.
To take your original metaphor and expand on it, the vaccine is much like a rebuilt engine. If broken in properly, you can be virtually guaranteed that with minimal maintenance you're good to go. If it's not broken in properly, however, you may find that it burns oil or runs rough, which will need more work (treatment) later.
I know a guy who knows a guy that sells Ebola vaccines for a good price, PM me for details.
*Side effects include mental degradation... but for the peace of mind its priceless.
p.s. thank you wasabisashimi for cracking the measles disinformation that members here are spreading. Vitamin A deficiency was key in the deaths of so many people... oddly enough a few of the mainstream measles vaccine sites never mentioned anything about it... its a conspiracy.
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At the end of the day, it's all about assessing likelihood. Which is more likely, a multinational conspiracy with 99% corrupted doctors distributing poison vaccine, or do you believe in Jenny McCarthy.
Based on the arguments in this thread, it's pretty obvious which makes more sense to me.
To be fair, if you're going to make a car-based example, you might want to consider this a proper break-in of the engine before tearing it up.
Also, people are praising the vaccine because the types of care that we receive are much better these days, and are not really as optional as the upvaccine.
To take your original metaphor and expand on it, the vaccine is much like a rebuilt engine. If broken in properly, you can be virtually guaranteed that with minimal maintenance you're good to go. If it's not broken in properly, however, you may find that it burns oil or runs rough, which will need more work (treatment) later.
That's why an infant shouldn't be injected with anything that early in the stage of life. Their immune system haven't been broken in. Putting these foreign things whether toxic or benign will cause long term effects, such as allergies, autoimmune disorder like arthritis or other disorders involving hyperactive immune function. Posted via RS Mobile
Back when we were growing up, I don't remember peanut allergy was so wide spread or seasonal allergies effecting my kid friends. We would runaround naked, get mmosquito bites that didn't swell up like kid's nowadays. I mean this is all great for allergy medicine makers because almost everyone gets allergies of some sort at least for my group of friends and their kids. Posted via RS Mobile
The trend is positively on the decline! Can we just think about it, why is all the credit going to Vaccination but not the advancement of medical treatment post-infection or better hygiene in the developed world and better nutritional value plus better parenting education of sickness management?
That actually brings up a related point, while the deaths may have been on the decline, what about the numbers regarding non-fatal cases of the disease? What about the strain on the medical system? Just because the hospitals are gov't run here doesn't mean the resources are endless. The increased load could cause delays that may cause other ailments to become fatal or have further complications.
And at the end of the day, do you want to put your kids through catching it, and the complications that may be involved?
__________________ 1991 Toyota Celica GTFour RC // 2007 Toyota Rav4 V6 // 2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee
1992 Toyota Celica GT-S ["sold"] \\ 2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee CRD [sold] \\ 2000 Jeep Cherokee [sold] \\ 1997 Honda Prelude [sold] \\ 1992 Jeep YJ [sold/crashed] \\ 1987 Mazda RX-7 [sold] \\ 1987 Toyota Celica GT-S [crushed]
Quote:
Originally Posted by maksimizer
half those dudes are hotter than ,my GF.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RevYouUp
reading this thread is like waiting for goku to charge up a spirit bomb in dragon ball z
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good_KarMa
OH thank god. I thought u had sex with my wife. :cry:
That's why an infant shouldn't be injected with anything that early in the stage of life. Their immune system haven't been broken in. Putting these foreign things whether toxic or benign will cause long term effects, such as allergies, autoimmune disorder like arthritis or other disorders involving hyperactive immune function. Posted via RS Mobile
I've been holding back on commenting in this thread, but I think this comment is a breaking point.
Where the fuck is your evidence? Where are your credentials? Long term side effects? Do you have a double-blind placebo trial on infants that somehow passed through a medical ethics board that I'm not aware of? You're telling me that someone funded a 60-70 year trial comparing whether people who was vacinnated had more autoimmune disorders?
You come across to me like a gluten-free-food-loving hippie that doesn't even have a clue what gluten is.
Study: Immune System Has Dramatic Impact on Children’s Brain Development
Quote:
New research from the University of Virginia School of Medicine has revealed the dramatic effect the immune system has on the brain development of young children.
...
determined that the more days infants suffered fever, the worse they performed on developmental tests at 12 and 24 months. They also found that elevated levels of inflammation-causing proteins in the blood were associated with worse performance,
...
“The problem we sought to address was why millions of young children in low- and middle-income countries are not attaining their full developmental potential,”
....
physicians may be able to enhance children’s mental ability for a lifetime.
...
“By studying which early childhood influences are associated with hindrances to growth and learning
...
the finding illuminates the complex relationship between the immune system and cognitive development
...
I've been holding back on commenting in this thread, but I think this comment is a breaking point.
Where the fuck is your evidence? Where are your credentials? Long term side effects? Do you have a double-blind placebo trial on infants that somehow passed through a medical ethics board that I'm not aware of? You're telling me that someone funded a 60-70 year trial comparing whether people who was vacinnated had more autoimmune disorders?
You come across to me like a gluten-free-food-loving hippie that doesn't even have a clue what gluten is.
I feel like i am talking to a wall. I do not need to show my credentials or my diet diary to prove anything to you. Why do you feel the need to win this debate? The only thing you win is " name calling with aggressive tone"!
I've seen one pulled the "give me the Double-Blinded, Meta-analysis....." mumbo jumbo line as a counter attack because they just simply can't or won't understand the physiology provided.
Was I suggesting that I am 100% correct or telling you the only Truth?
Let me point to you for the last time, this is the EASIEST way to understand how our immune system work. If you still won't read it or understand it, so be it. It is my failure to find ways for you to digest Physiology textbook.
This next part also provides more possibilities of autoimmune disorder, I won't force you to read it because it is not about "double-blind trial with placenbo control and then polished with heavy meta-analytic statistical genius
[Autoimmune diseases: Vaccines as a possible trigger
The bottom line: Suppressed cell-mediated immune response with a over-active humoral immune response = Allergies, or in some context autoimmune disorder. This is in the text book, in the Merc Manual, in Wikipedia if you will.
Here is car analogy again: Think hybrid car! Cell-mediated is your electric motor, Humoral system is your gas motor. Too much lead-foot driving will lose gas milage since you are purely driving on gas motor without activating your electric motor.
Again not everyone treats their body like a hybrid car. You may think you are an expensive sports car and go live a rock-star party life style, just wait for your monthly gas and maintence bill.
I am done trying my best in educating with facts and mechanisms. If you can Stop focusing on the side effects, the big pharma conspiracy ,and Jenny McCarthy, you will actually learn a little about science.
That actually brings up a related point, while the deaths may have been on the decline, what about the numbers regarding non-fatal cases of the disease? What about the strain on the medical system? Just because the hospitals are gov't run here doesn't mean the resources are endless. The increased load could cause delays that may cause other ailments to become fatal or have further complications.
And at the end of the day, do you want to put your kids through catching it, and the complications that may be involved?
Strain on the medical system? What about people who drinks pop, eat fast food and dont exercise?
These people become obesed, develop diabetes, required bi weekly antibiotic IVs, and some needing kidney dialysis and amputations. What about their risks of heart attack and stroke?
Do they strain the ER wait time, out-patient treatment seating area, or hospital beds?
What about the medications they need to take? Insulin, metformin, atenolol, statin drugs and ace inhibitors?
Do u need me to go on and on about hospital strains in our society? I thought not!
If by the previous definition that those who wont vaccinate should pay more MSP fee, i can find lots more income source for the MSP, such as fat people, drug addicts, and people who travels alot between continents that may bring in diseases or foreign pest/bugs, and parents who let their kids play in the cold with barely a t shirt on during cold but sunny winter month........etc
I feel like i am talking to a wall. I do not need to show my credentials or my diet diary to prove anything to you. Why do you feel the need to win this debate? The only thing you win is " name calling with aggressive tone"!
I've seen one pulled the "give me the Double-Blinded, Meta-analysis....." mumbo jumbo line as a counter attack because they just simply can't or won't understand the physiology provided.
I am done trying my best in educating with facts and mechanisms. If you can Stop focusing on the side effects and Jenny McCarthy, you will actually learn a little about science.
Well I guess my professional degree in a healthcare field is completely useless compared to your hippy science. If you don't understand what different levels of evidence mean in science, nor do you understand different types of studies or trials, how can you claim to understand science?
Physiology does not explain everything. There are hundreds of medications where we have no idea how it works. The now current standards of practice in treating heart failure was counterintuitive to the physiology of heart failure. There are countless other examples I could bring up, but you clearly have no idea what you're talking about and can only pull shit out of your ass.
Finally, you are talking to a wall that practices healthcare everyday. I don't need you to convince me, nor the countless other healthcare professionals who analyze, practice and rely on only properly conducted trials. I'm just stopping you from spewing your bullshit and calling you out for what you are: Ignorant.
Edit:
Just looked at the smartvax website. Notice how not a single person was willing to put their name behind the words on the website?
By the way, i do not know the age group in this discussion, but it would be interesting to find out how many of us have been recently vaccinated?
If most of us didnt get vaccinated since 15-20 yrs ago, how do we know we still have immunity without testing it. It would be blind faith in vaccine's therotical expiry date, while blaming your neighbors unvaccinated child. I am having trouble finding an actual duration of vaccine protection. All i can find is it may be shorter than it was claimed from the estimated life. We may all need to be revaccinated.
We dont even have enough data to give a proper effective duration. If we want to make sure we eradicate the disease, they willl need to implement a testing session for everyone and revaccinate who ever arent showing protection anymore. Otherwise, many of us are just hypocites while blaming our neighbor's unvaccinated kid.
1 in 38 children in south Korea are said to have autism... Anyone read Korean? please find the north Korean figures. Since the south is occupied by the U.S. and follow the same standards, I'd like to compare the figures.
edit
One other thing, what is Iowa doing different then other the states to have such low autism rates.
Well I guess my professional degree in a healthcare field is completely useless compared to your hippy science. If you don't understand what different levels of evidence mean in science, nor do you understand different types of studies or trials, how can you claim to understand science?
Physiology does not explain everything. There are hundreds of medications where we have no idea how it works. The now current standards of practice in treating heart failure was counterintuitive to the physiology of heart failure. There are countless other examples I could bring up, but you clearly have no idea what you're talking about and can only pull shit out of your ass.
Finally, you are talking to a wall that practices healthcare everyday. I don't need you to convince me, nor the countless other healthcare professionals who analyze, practice and rely on only properly conducted trials. I'm just stopping you from spewing your bullshit and calling you out for what you are: Ignorant.
Edit:
Just looked at the smartvax website. Notice how not a single person was willing to put their name behind the words on the website?
I am really interested in your professional health care degree now, because i would like to learn how to tell hippie from non-hippies as well as how to judge websites by its mystery operator. Also are you admiting that some of our health protocols are wrong and need to be reevaluted? Maybe we need to reevaluate the vaccination schedule and come up a relayed solution? Or we can sit here evaluate our ability to read .
I am really interested in your professional health care degree now, because i would like to learn how to tell hippie from non-hippies as well as how to judge websites by its mystery operator. Also are you admiting that some of our health protocols are wrong and need to be reevaluted? Maybe we need to reevaluate the vaccination schedule and come up a relayed solution? Or we can sit here evaluate our ability to read .
Clearly you also failed in english comprehension. Of course everything needs to be re-evaluated when there is compelling evidence to the contrary. I merely said physiology alone does not predict outcomes.
You however, are using hocus pocus websites with absolutely zero basis in the scientific process to discredit years of scientific research. You are willing to trust websites with mystery authors and zero credibility over trusted health care professionals with years of experience and expertise.
It's clear you've been drinking the same kool-aid as CiC. Unfortunately a recent study linked this said kool-aid with autism and mental retardation. Read it on some website. Must be true since you're displaying the symptoms.
I think I found something significant here, twdm you have a degree, care to reply?
Spoiler!
Iowa's autism rate looks about the same as other states in 1999 AUTISM RATES 1999
Then Iowa becomes the first state to ban mercury based vaccines ~2005
Quote:
Vaccine additive banned in Iowa
....
Earlier this year, the state became the first in the nation to ban the use of preservatives in childhood vaccines.
In 1999, when it was discovered that immunized children had accidentally been exposed to mercury levels well over federal limits, the American Academy of Pediatrics called for thimerosal to be removed from vaccines as a precaution.
It was eliminated from nearly all vaccines except the one used for the flu.
...
Charles there is one study done in 1998 that linked autism to vaccination and it was debunked several times over by several government operated bodies, and private research labs. There simply is no correlation between getting a vaccine and autism.
The link has arose due to bro-science (you know, the type of science you practice). The time that autism is diagnosed is roughly the same time that the first vaccinations are administered to kids. Parents (and people like you seeking a link) associate autism with vaccination since they both happened at the same time, but there is no factual or tangible evidence to prove that -- actually, all the evidence proves otherwise.
Do you even know the molecular basis for autism? Unless you're suggesting a vaccine can cause that kind of genetic damage -- if that was the case, why aren't we seeing an increase in childhood cancers? Because there is no relation. Stop spreading fallacy Charles.
EDIT:
Charles, since you love figures and graphs so much:
Also here's a little background on the only 'scientist' to ever correlate the things you are discussing:
Andrew Wakefield (above)
- What did andrew do? He published the only paper EVER in the history of published papers that claimed a link between the MMR vaccine for measles/mumps/rubella and autism. An investigation into his study found:
1) the medical 'study' conducted by andrew included a total of 12 kids in the study -- hugely misrepresented and data was falsified
2) wakefield stood to profit enormously by his results
3) The study constituted abuse of the developmentally disabled children.
10 of the original 13 authors of the paper published a retraction in 2010.
Wakefields findings have never been reproduced or validated by other researchers and in 2010 they banned wakefield from practicing medicine.
You're basing this entire argument on one paper written by a moron who broke the ethical code of medical practitioners by using his position to profit himself by falsifying data. Maybe you don't know how the scientific process works but someone making a claim is never instantly accepted. It is criticized, every little detail from the machinery they used to how well they sanitized test tubes is scrutinized, and only once their data can be replicated by several others does it start to become widely accepted.
In addition to your comment about "someone making a claim is never instantly accepted", even the paper you referenced that started all of this did not interpret causation.
Quoting from the paper itself: "We did not prove an association between measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine and the syndrome described. Virological studies are underway that may help to resolve this issue."
It is not rare for studies to publish findings that are later proven to be inconsistent. This paper is an example of one of those cases, the media broscientists just simply love to make claims when they do not understand the scientific process.
Strain on the medical system? What about people who drinks pop, eat fast food and dont exercise?
These people become obesed, develop diabetes, required bi weekly antibiotic IVs, and some needing kidney dialysis and amputations. What about their risks of heart attack and stroke?
Do they strain the ER wait time, out-patient treatment seating area, or hospital beds?
What about the medications they need to take? Insulin, metformin, atenolol, statin drugs and ace inhibitors?
Do u need me to go on and on about hospital strains in our society? I thought not!
What the fuck are you talking about? Are you really saying that because the system is already strained it's no big deal to strain it more? Fat people may be a bigger strain but that doesn't mean the strain from disease outbreaks is irrelevant.
That's like saying we shouldn't worry about serial killers because cancer kills more people.
__________________ 1991 Toyota Celica GTFour RC // 2007 Toyota Rav4 V6 // 2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee
1992 Toyota Celica GT-S ["sold"] \\ 2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee CRD [sold] \\ 2000 Jeep Cherokee [sold] \\ 1997 Honda Prelude [sold] \\ 1992 Jeep YJ [sold/crashed] \\ 1987 Mazda RX-7 [sold] \\ 1987 Toyota Celica GT-S [crushed]
Quote:
Originally Posted by maksimizer
half those dudes are hotter than ,my GF.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RevYouUp
reading this thread is like waiting for goku to charge up a spirit bomb in dragon ball z
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good_KarMa
OH thank god. I thought u had sex with my wife. :cry:
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