School districts across B.C. planning deep cuts to balance budgets

[Xu.Vi]

International students aren't entitled to free education anyway from what I know.

[godwin]

There are 2 types of "Chinese" students.

1. International students who pay multiples of what local students pay, especially to public schools and education. (not to mention it create jobs for house parents etc).
2. New immigrants, if they own property (which most of them do). Their property taxes will pay for the schooling.

I would argue we DON'T have enough international students. We have a huge glut of teachers.. more International students create jobs for those teachers, at a profit margin higher than local students.

One way to solve the problem is force all the private language colleges with ESL teachers to close and make all those students pay extra to go to schools run by the gov.. so we can take those profits.

The problem especially in Coq.. is there are NOT ENOUGH international students in public schools.. the programs are running deficits.

Another point to consider: because of "blended families" and divorces, we have the same population living in 1+ more households, diluting population density, make providing services harder and making real estate more expensive. Honestly we need a tax on divorces. You want a divorce? You have to pay for the additional burden on social services you incur.

Just because YOU see things, doesn't mean it is true.. it is called confirmation bias.

Originally Posted by xpl0sive

So where are all these kids coming from? Simple answer, mostly China...
I know some of you may think I'm being racist or picking on the Asians, but I'm just telling it how I see it. I'm in the construction/real estate industry and see the facts on a daily basis. Asian families coming to Canada and bringing their kids there, so the kids can get a good education. They buy houses in the areas with the best schools. They want the best for their kids, and who's to blame them, I'm sure everyone else does too.

But unlike the new immigrants, Canadians have been living here, paying high taxes, so that schools can have good teachers and new books for students. New immigrants? Nope, the only taxes they pay are property taxes on their new houses. I'm all for immigration, which drives the country and benefits everyone. But I'm not interested in paying more taxes so that more people can come here from China, get their kids educated for free and not even bother to learn the language.

I feel that non-citizens should not be entitled to free education. There are plenty of private schools that have great teachers and even better materials than public schools. If a family can afford to come here and buy a $5mil house in Shaughnessy, they can afford to pay for private school. If an immigrant comes to this country and they can prove that they are truly here for a better life and to work and pay taxes, then great, give their kids a free education.

[xpl0sive]

As far as I know, international students only have to pay in full for schooling for post secondary education. For elementary school and high school, all you have to do is show that you live in the designated area for that particular school and that you are a permanent resident in Canada. Before the investor program got shut down, the Chinese immigrants were granted automatic permanent resident status. That means free education for their children. Shutting down the investor program is a step in the right direction, not only for real estate, but for the schooling issues as well.

[godwin]

Actually it is $12k a year at VSB Year-long Study | Vancouver School Board for foreign elementary to high school students. Also the school board can refuse problematic students with low academic grades (so other than ESL, you don't need Special Ed teachers which are labour intensive). + they pay their own health insurance + of course home stay etc.

Granted it is still pittance compared with 80k at my old high school charges out in TO.

As for investors program, you have to have a few million in an approved business plan invested in the local economy (no matter if it is a Best Western or a Chinese restaurant).. that generates revenue for CRA.

Originally Posted by xpl0sive

As far as I know, international students only have to pay in full for schooling for post secondary education. For elementary school and high school, all you have to do is show that you live in the designated area for that particular school and that you are a permanent resident in Canada. Before the investor program got shut down, the Chinese immigrants were granted automatic permanent resident status. That means free education for their children. Shutting down the investor program is a step in the right direction, not only for real estate, but for the schooling issues as well.

[xpl0sive]

But those fees are not applicable to Landed Immigrants or Permanent Residents...

What I'm saying is, before the Investor Program got shut down, the families that came over and bought up all the houses in Vancouver West were granted permanent residency. Same goes for Burnaby. Their kids now go to schools for free.

[godwin]

Investors program still need to have an approved business plan. It is not as simple as writing a cheque.

When they buy up properties, they do pay for taxes that go directly to schools annually just like any property owner (due next week BTW). In fact the bigger their houses, the larger will be their assessments. There are often no grants for them either. Last I check, the funding for public schools come largely from the real estate assessments (at least as a line item) not personal or corporate income taxes.

In fact for the landed immigrants who enroll their kids in private schools, they are paying extra into the public school system without complaining about it. Heck I don't use any local school system (ever, I moved from out of province), yet I still pay for it via my property assessment every year, I estimate it is 7k a year portion of my property assessment?.

Originally Posted by xpl0sive

But those fees are not applicable to Landed Immigrants or Permanent Residents...

What I'm saying is, before the Investor Program got shut down, the families that came over and bought up all the houses in Vancouver West were granted permanent residency. Same goes for Burnaby. Their kids now go to schools for free.

[xpl0sive]

that's fine, but clearly they aren't paying enough. Maybe the property taxes for $3mil+ houses should be increased, especially if the family residing there has school age children. If the Gov't is saying that every person is BC will need to pay an additional $13k in taxes over the next 6 years, where are they going to collect those taxes? From property taxes or income taxes?

[godwin]

School taxes have traditionally come from property assessments. I don't think BC property assessment has the authority or data to separate households with or without kids.. Even if we go that route, I would say tax every special cases, as I had alluded, the divorced parents. Then you will devoid into tax parents with kids who need special attention at school, eg fetal alcohol etc etc? I would say resource wise, new immigrants use much less education resource than local kids with ADHD, FAS or other behavioral problems, because we get to preselect immigrants (along with their parents) during the immigration process. Any immediate family with psych, physical issues, you don't get to get in because you need a Canadian gov approved doctor to do a physical exam.

Besides I suspect the new immigrants kids play a significant role of the reason why we are 3rd in rankings in educaiton. Basically BC gets to cherry pick the bright and richest students from the world's population pool. No to mention, not all new immigrants or permanent residents are from China, I would say a minority. Most of the profs at universities are Americans, not to mention high to mid level workers at local tech, engineering and aviation firms, also MDs, (especially the good ones, not to mention the majority who shlep at boondoggle no where) They don't need to go through the "traditional" immigration process, just present their education credentials (MSc+) and employment letter at the border they are free to enter. They are all classified as permanent residents and are no need to queue for citizens of NAFTA countries eg.

Honestly even if you increase 3mill+ assessment, it won't change the fact that all teacher colleges in town make a killing in training teachers and there is just a glut of grads. With realty prices increasing 10% a year, it won't take that long for all the standalone houses in YVR to be 3mill+. Heck my townhouse already passed that threshold a while back and I bought it when it was built in 99.

Originally Posted by xpl0sive

that's fine, but clearly they aren't paying enough. Maybe the property taxes for $3mil+ houses should be increased, especially if the family residing there has school age children. If the Gov't is saying that every person is BC will need to pay an additional $13k in taxes over the next 6 years, wheere are they going to collect those taxes? From property taxes or income taxes?

[gars]

Originally Posted by xpl0sive

that's fine, but clearly they aren't paying enough. Maybe the property taxes for $3mil+ houses should be increased, especially if the family residing there has school age children. If the Gov't is saying that every person is BC will need to pay an additional $13k in taxes over the next 6 years, where are they going to collect those taxes? From property taxes or income taxes?

My company's CEO has a 9 Million dollar home in White Rock, he's paying $26k a year in property tax, and only has 1 kid who's in private school. How much more do you want him to pay?

[MG1]

International students bring in a tonne of money. We're not talking immigrants. Schools that have international students use all that extra money to pay for a lot of the materials they need for the other students. Why is the government so keen on making sure summer school this year is a go? They don't care about the few who need it to pass or make up classes. It's the money International students bring in.

Back to the immigrant students. They are the least of the schools' problems. Asian kids are,by nature, the quiet ones. No problem with core subjects except English.

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by MG1

International students bring in a tonne of money. We're not talking immigrants. Schools that have international students use all that extra money to pay for a lot of the materials they need for the other students. Why is the government so keen on making sure summer school this year is a go? They don't care about the few who need it to pass or make up classes. It's the money International students bring in.

Also, the immigrant students are the least of the schools' problems. Asian kids are,by nature, the ones. No problem with core subjects except English.

I think the larger issue is that a vocal minority of people would rather turn down the money if it means a more homogenous culture.

[MG1]

wow, I was on my iPhone and somehow saw a post from a page ago........ most of what I've said has already been addressed by the time I replied.

[MG1]

Originally Posted by Tapioca

I think the larger issue is that a vocal minority of people would rather turn down the money if it means a more homogenous culture.

International students are only here for a relatively short time. They bring oodles of money. Not sure how much, but by the time everybody takes their share, the schools get a couple of thousand per student. Have a dozen or so of them and it's like 20 to 30 grand for extra computers, textbooks, etc. for that school.

Ah, here is an article that sort of gives you an idea of what it's all about.

Cashing in on foreign students - Macleans.ca

As a side note, every district has different ways of dealing with the money.

[godwin]

I rented properties to international university students in the Interior mostly Kelowna.. They are insanely generous, since most of them, it is their first experience outside their home and they have unlimited resources from their parents. Especially at the end of their stay. One of them left her Smart as gift to the house keeper etc. I had a few didn't come back next school year and all their belongings (computers, clothes etc were all donated to local churches).

The key is to structure your lease thoughtfully, think in their perspective what they need. Include housekeeping and cleaning services, storage over summer etc. Make it clear in the lease agreement. (especially storage they have to prepay or put a deposit). I think there are huge trickle down effect, as I try to hire neighborhood house cleaners, yardsmen etc.

Originally Posted by MG1

International students are only here for a relatively short time. They bring oodles of money. Not sure how much, but by the time everybody takes their share, the schools get a couple of thousand per student. Have a dozen or so of them and it's like 20 to 30 grand for extra computers, textbooks, etc. for that school.

[noclue]

Originally Posted by gars

My company's CEO has a 9 Million dollar home in White Rock, he's paying $26k a year in property tax, and only has 1 kid who's in private school. How much more do you want him to pay?

For 9 million that's really low in property taxes to be honest. BC and Canada have very low property taxes. Course we make it up by higher sales tax. Look at Seattle or worse California he'll be paying 1% of his assessment.

[Lomac]

Originally Posted by MG1

International students are only here for a relatively short time. They bring oodles of money. Not sure how much, but by the time everybody takes their share, the schools get a couple of thousand per student. Have a dozen or so of them and it's like 20 to 30 grand for extra computers, textbooks, etc. for that school.

Ah, here is an article that sort of gives you an idea of what it's all about.

Cashing in on foreign students - Macleans.ca

As a side note, every district has different ways of dealing with the money.

I was accepted into University of York in the UK a few years back. For a three year course as an international student, the tuition was just shy of $150,000. And that didn't include school materials, rent or living expenses.

So, yeah... you can see why Universities in particular and schools in general love international students.

[Mr.HappySilp]

Originally Posted by Lomac

I was accepted into University of York in the UK a few years back. For a three year course as an international student, the tuition was just shy of $150,000. And that didn't include school materials, rent or living expenses.

So, yeah... you can see why Universities in particular and schools in general love international students.

It will be pretty funny and sad at the same time if university in BC accepts way more international students then locals due to money not because the locals don't meet the requirements.

[noclue]

global competition. International students have better grades and AP/IB scores than locals why not? Honestly nowadays with High school being MUCH easier (no provincial exams except for English etc) if you dont get good grades, you really are slacking.

Unless UBC adopts a similar system like California where the school must admit a majority from in-state, international students are going to keep coming. Come to think of it international students are absolute cash cows for UBC, Aside from high tuition, Im sure ENGL110 and 112 will make a good chunk of international students retake it or do the LPI which means more money from repeat semesters. $$$$$.

[tiger_handheld]

UBC already has a "international student" school - UBC Vantage College

[Carl Johnson]

Originally Posted by tiger_handheld

UBC already has a "international student" school - UBC Vantage College

Minimum English requirements

• a minimum score of 70 on the TOEFL iBT with no section less than 16 OR
• a minimum overall score of 5.5 on the IELTS with a minimum band score of 5.0 in speaking and listening, and 5.5 in reading and writing

Minimum requirements for science streams

• senior-level Mathematics (Pre-Calculus) with a minimum grade of 68% (or nearest equivalent on other grading scales)
• junior- or Grade 11-level Physics and Chemistry (or nearest equivalent)

UBC - You Bring Cash

[godwin]

Also note it is only 1st year programs.

I really don't know what's the attraction of UBC in the last 10 years.. when you get that GPA to get in, you can get into any Ivy League universities. Business? Do it in Stanford is way more profitable on the long run than UBC.

Originally Posted by Carl Johnson

Minimum English requirements

• a minimum score of 70 on the TOEFL iBT with no section less than 16 OR
• a minimum overall score of 5.5 on the IELTS with a minimum band score of 5.0 in speaking and listening, and 5.5 in reading and writing

Minimum requirements for science streams

• senior-level Mathematics (Pre-Calculus) with a minimum grade of 68% (or nearest equivalent on other grading scales)
• junior- or Grade 11-level Physics and Chemistry (or nearest equivalent)

UBC - You Bring Cash

[tiger_handheld]

Originally Posted by godwin

Also note it is only 1st year programs.

I really don't know what's the attraction of UBC in the last 10 years.. when you get that GPA to get in, you can get into any Ivy League universities. Business? Do it in Stanford is way more profitable on the long run than UBC.

The attraction is that asian parents can tell their friends they their kid goes to UBC, because everyone in Vancouver knows what UBC is. Many asians who are local may not know where Yale, Stanford, or Queens is and might regard that "oh your kid wasn't good enough so they had to go to a out of town school to get in".

It's also close enough that the kid can stay at home so the parents can keep an eye on them.

[Carl Johnson]

Originally Posted by tiger_handheld

The attraction is that asian parents can tell their friends they their kid goes to UBC, because everyone in Vancouver knows what UBC is. Many asians who are local may not know where Yale, Stanford, or Queens is and might regard that "oh your kid wasn't good enough so they had to go to a out of town school to get in".

It's also close enough that the kid can stay at home so the parents can keep an eye on them.

1 year is extremely ambitious don't you think for somebody who does not even need to have Physics, Chemistry, Biology, or Calculus 12? I would be really interested to know how you can solve university-level physics problem with only a 68% pre-calc grade and no calculus at all. The intentional students will probably need at least 2 years to go into regular stream if everything goes to plan with no course repeats.

[noclue]

Originally Posted by tiger_handheld

The attraction is that asian parents can tell their friends they their kid goes to UBC, because everyone in Vancouver knows what UBC is. Many asians who are local may not know where Yale, Stanford, or Queens is and might regard that "oh your kid wasn't good enough so they had to go to a out of town school to get in".

It's also close enough that the kid can stay at home so the parents can keep an eye on them.

Umm... many asians who are local will know what stanford or yale is and those schools are way more prestigious to brag to their friends about.

[bing]

Originally Posted by tiger_handheld

The attraction is that asian parents can tell their friends they their kid goes to UBC, because everyone in Vancouver knows what UBC is. Many asians who are local may not know where Yale, Stanford, or Queens is and might regard that "oh your kid wasn't good enough so they had to go to a out of town school to get in".

It's also close enough that the kid can stay at home so the parents can keep an eye on them.

UBC's ranked pretty high on global charts and the assumption is that if you are staying locally, you better end up at UBC. I was on a tour bus full of seniors in China and all of them would ask me if I was in university and subsequently whether I went to UBC. Only if I said yes that I was still in school would it make them feel at ease and many of them don't seem to recognize SFU as well.

I disagree that many don't know what Yale, Stanford, and Queens are since Chinese are big on education. If Asian mom's are anything like mine, they'll inform their friends how difficult and prestigious it is to get in. I had a family friend's son only get on the waitlist for Stanford undergrad and that was already being talked about by everyone (his dad threatened to kill himself if he choose UBC cause he said it was a once in a lifetime opportunity and he's a silicon valley guy).

Also, since my cousin got into Stanford law (ranked #2 with Harvard) with a 99% average from UBC, his mom knows the other mom of a local guy who got into Yale law (ranked #1).

The point? there are so few local people getting into these top schools that word spreads. The only people that might not know are the illiterate, grandparent's, or family's where there is no tradition of education.

And No, I disagree with godwin that if you have the grades to get into UBC then you get easily get into an Ivy, which have acceptance rates ranging roughly from 6.72% - 14%. There are also minimum SAT scores you probably need to be accepted which many students can't attain without an excellent grasp of English. Another personal anecdote, my other cousin even got rejected for Stanford undergrad yet she was obviously capable since she ended up graduating magna cum laude from a different Ivy and then later getting an MBA as class president.