School districts across B.C. planning deep cuts to balance budgets

[freakshow]

We're definitely getting off track (no thanks to me either) talking about what teachers 'should' be able to make or how much effort they put in.

Can anyone give an unbiased summary of what the teachers are asking for vs the govt?

I hate unions about as much as I hate Christy Clark..

[ntan]

I don't see how you can compare the salary of a software developer to a teacher. You're purposely focusing on a career path which generally has a higher pay. Can you really equate the two (teachers and software developers)? Are the job requirements the same? How about the competitiveness and/or the difficulties of entry? And you're also overlooking the many (and possibly majority) software developers who do not earn $85K+/yr, (I have many friends who earn $40K-$50K/yr as software developers/engineers). Why don't we look at the salary of social workers then? From my knowledge (and for those who I know in that field), they all have bachelors degree, work with people, and they're paid a very modest amount. Why don't we use that as a comparison then?

[capt_slo]

The following link allows people to search out all public sector salaries (over 75k, I believe). It's searchable by type and by school district. Public Sector Salaries - Vancouver Sun

There are quite a few teachers in the 80k to 97k pay range. If you consider the 2 months of off time in the summer that could potentially be used to supplement incomes, their earning potential is quite high for a job that produces zero financial profit.

The salary doesn't reflect the "hidden" income built into these union jobs, such as above average holiday time, which is usually bankable for multiple years, sick day allotments (not always easy to find in many private sector professions) and added pensions. There is a lot of value there. So when a teacher complains about a salary being too low, the face value of that number cannot be all you consider.

There was an article last year that stated that the VSB got hit for $20M in cost from its own members due to absenteeism and abuse of the sick day allowances. The BCTF doesn't mention that or how they will curb it in their ads. The sick day scam - Macleans.ca

I agree that cost of living raises are fair but the numbers the BCTF have come to the table with are excessive. There are millions of potential dollars that could be found from within. But remember, lower membership numbers or lower mean salary = lower union-due revenue, and that's counterintuitive to some agendas.

When a union of that size starts to run itself with more fiscal responsibility, they may be able to gain my support.

[gars]

I also know plenty of software developers that work more than 8 hours a day, because BC's labour laws have a clause that exempts tech companies from paying overtime.

[Traum]

From what I remember (which means it is probably not complete)

Teacher demands:
- CBA renewal. I don't remember the exact number of years they are asking for, but I seem to think they recently shifted from demanding a 3 years long CBA to a 4 year long one.
- Salary raises as part of the CBA, but I don't remember how much. Bear in mind that the teachers have been seeing 0% increases for the last 4 years, and minimal increases (probably 1-2% per year at most) in the 2 years before that. 2% is almost certainly below general inflation rates.
- Government compliance on current and existing class size and special needs legislations. The provincial supreme court has already ruled against the government on this.

Provincial gov demands:
- Currently pushing for a 6 year CBA, with 0% salary increases in the first 2 (?) years, and minimal increases afterwards (1 - 2% per year). This is down from the 10 year CBA that they tried very hard to push.
- The government insists that the current class size legislations are unaffordable, and is seeking concession on those terms. Again, the provincial supreme court has already ruled in favour of the BCTF and against the government on this issue. I don't know the exact details of what concessions the government wants.

- Currently, the teachers have staged rotating 1 day strike across different school districts in the province.
- Teachers have stopped spending time on extracurricular activities at school. Work on grad ceremonies have probably stopped as well.

- The government has legislated (?) that teachers can only be at school 45 min before and 45 min after class starts, and they cannot be on school property during their breaks or outside of school hours. School-related work (marking, prep, admin work, etc.) is also not to be done outside of school hours.
- The government continues to encourage teachers to volunteer their free time towards extracurricular activities, including but not limited to sports and grad activities.

[added, cuz I forgot when I initially wrote this]
- The provincial government has also unilaterally imposed a 10% wage cut on the teachers starting Mon, May 26 as the rotating 1 day strike took place.

Those are the "facts" as I know them, and I have refrained from adding in my own comments even though I have plenty.

[capt_slo]

The BCTF has asked for 13% in increases over 3 years.

The GOV has offered 7.25% over 6 years of a proposed 10-year deal.

B.C. teachers negotiations heading for stalemate - British Columbia - CBC News

From what I've seen, the inflation rate for 2013 in BC was 0.1%.

[meme405]

Originally Posted by Traum

2% is almost certainly below general inflation rates.

While 2% is a generally accepted rate for inflation in a healthy level economy, it has been quite a long time since we have actually seen a 2% increase when you average out across an entire year.

[Traum]

^^ Yes, it seems like while the overall Canadian economy has been seeing inflations rates of roughly 2% (sometimes higher, sometimes lower), BC inflation has been lower than the national average. Of course, if you ask me, I only notice how a lot of regular consumer goods have been slowly (or quickly) climbing in price...

[multicartual]

Originally Posted by Traum

if you ask me, I only notice how a lot of regular consumer goods have been slowly (or quickly) climbing in price...

Illegal shit has remained the same price for soooooo long, or even gone DOWN in price!!!

[multicartual]

Originally Posted by Traum

I only notice how a lot of regular consumer goods have been slowly (or quickly) climbing in price...

When I was 20, 16 years ago, you could get a Subway round 4" sandwich for .99 cents. For $2.13 or so you could have 2 sandwiches with water and feel full. It was like $10 or less to eat per day. I remember buying everything I needed to make Tacos, with leftovers, for about $12. INCLUDING CHEESE. Look at how much one block of cheese costs today!


It used to be a much easier life, women were less picky, we weren't as envious of each other because we didn't have The Internet Jealousy Engines like Instagram or Facebook.


I remember paying something like $40 an hour for car repair as well, now? Good luck finding a shop for less than $100 an hour!


Life has got MUCH more expensive, it is no wonder women are more hypergamous than ever before. Living in downtown Vancouver if you're making only 100k you're basically close to the poverty line and probably not saving too much money living on your own in a nice place.


I heard The Cedar Party in Vancouver basically said that Mayor Moonbeam has been allowing the developers to get away with making so much money and that they should be taxed more. Maybe everyone just needs to stop having kids?

[GLOW]

what were you doing eating at subway? that's food for 9-5'ers

[PeanutButter]

I just found out that senior teaches in Ontario make over $100k...
That is CRAZY!!!

I think BC Teachers get paid amoungst the least in least in Canada. Can anyone confirm?

EDIT: nm. found a PDF from BCTF.
http://www.bctf.ca/uploadedFiles/Pub...13-14brief.pdf

If you have your masters you are Category 6 I believe, most teachers will be category 5

North West Territories = $115k Cat 5, $120k Cat 6
I guess that's the price you pay to live up North!

[PeanutButter]

Originally Posted by capt_slo

The BCTF has asked for 13% in increases over 3 years.

The GOV has offered 7.25% over 6 years of a proposed 10-year deal.

B.C. teachers negotiations heading for stalemate - British Columbia - CBC News

From what I've seen, the inflation rate for 2013 in BC was 0.1%.

I would like to see data on other governemnt collective bargaining agreements. Because if the nurses only got around 7.25%, I don't see the teachers getting anymore than that.

[meme405]

Originally Posted by PeanutButter

I just found out that senior teaches in Ontario make over $100k...
That is CRAZY!!!

I think BC Teachers get paid amoungst the least in least in Canada. Can anyone confirm?

EDIT: nm. found a PDF from BCTF.
http://www.bctf.ca/uploadedFiles/Pub...13-14brief.pdf

If you have your masters you are Category 6 I believe, most teachers will be category 5

North West Territories = $115k Cat 5, $120k Cat 6
I guess that's the price you pay to live up North!

Everyone makes more up north....

[Vulgate]

The blocked text in bold. I am not a fan of unions, but wtf is wrong with the government saying you can't be in school but you still have to get your work done? Seriously?

It's like telling a game developer that you can only work from 9 to 5, but you are not allowed in the office during coffee break or lunch time. But the game requires at least 10 hours of development time per day. You also cannot work from home. However the government still expect the game to be completed on time given the ridiculous restrictions.

There is a letter in the Vancouver Sun that elaborates on the restrictions
Letter from B.C. teacher to Christy Clark goes viral

Originally Posted by Traum

From what I remember (which means it is probably not complete)
...

- The government has legislated (?) that teachers can only be at school 45 min before and 45 min after class starts, and they cannot be on school property during their breaks or outside of school hours. School-related work (marking, prep, admin work, etc.) is also not to be done outside of school hours.
- The government continues to encourage teachers to volunteer their free time towards extracurricular activities, including but not limited to sports and grad activities.

Those are the "facts" as I know them, and I have refrained from adding in my own comments even though I have plenty.

[Jmac]

Originally Posted by freakshow

First of all, your math is a little bit crazy.. BEd@23, FT @ 25, Retire @55? Most people HOPE to retire at 65 and have enough money in the bank. So If he retires at 65, he's at 40 years of service.

So yes, yes it does seem MORE than reasonable. You'll be paid 50K a year TILL YOU DIE for doing nothing. Am I reading that wrong? You know what a software developer gets after they retire? CPP. gl hf.

What does a retail employee get? Or a fast food employee?

Why is a computer programmer the baseline for how everyone should be treated?

Also, I know quite a few computer programmers. The more talented ones make a shit ton more money and have way fucking better working conditions plus boatloads of extras that you could only dream of as a teacher.

One of my best friends who is a programmer was moved to Europe (at his company's expense), was given a condo, makes 60000 Euro per year ($90k CAD), gets 6 weeks of paid vacation per year PLUS the company does a 2-week all inclusive to a tropical destination every winter plus all of his meals are paid for plus a living allowance plus free haircuts (at their desks no less). Oh and pension, stock options, health, dental, etc.

[snowball]

Originally Posted by PeanutButter

I just found out that senior teaches in Ontario make over $100k...
That is CRAZY!!!

I think BC Teachers get paid amoungst the least in least in Canada. Can anyone confirm?

EDIT: nm. found a PDF from BCTF.
http://www.bctf.ca/uploadedFiles/Pub...13-14brief.pdf

If you have your masters you are Category 6 I believe, most teachers will be category 5

North West Territories = $115k Cat 5, $120k Cat 6
I guess that's the price you pay to live up North!

Forget about the BCTF or government sources.

Unbiased salary data here for each metro district: Teaching Salaries in BC's Metro Region | Make a Future

Most teachers are Cat5

[multicartual]

Originally Posted by GLOW

what were you doing eating at subway? that's food for 9-5'ers

I worked on a farm back then and drove an '82 Rx-7 before I got my '88 5.0 'vert

[freakshow]

Originally Posted by Jmac

What does a retail employee get? Or a fast food employee?

Why is a computer programmer the baseline for how everyone should be treated?

It's definitely not a good standard. It's just an example I was using. If anything, it's a high watermark. As you pointed out, plenty of industries get way less than teachers, and plenty work way harder.

[m3thods]

Originally Posted by Jmac

What does a retail employee get? Or a fast food employee?

Why is a computer programmer the baseline for how everyone should be treated?

Also, I know quite a few computer programmers. The more talented ones make a shit ton more money and have way fucking better working conditions plus boatloads of extras that you could only dream of as a teacher.

One of my best friends who is a programmer was moved to Europe (at his company's expense), was given a condo, makes 60000 Euro per year ($90k CAD), gets 6 weeks of paid vacation per year PLUS the company does a 2-week all inclusive to a tropical destination every winter plus all of his meals are paid for plus a living allowance plus free haircuts (at their desks no less). Oh and pension, stock options, health, dental, etc.

You're right programmers should definitely not be used as a baseline. Given the market conditions, there's a huge market for programmers around the globe given our reliance on technology. You can even be "unemployed" and make it big as a programmer. It's such a unique occupation/job market that it's almost in a league of it's own.

Teachers are in a reverse situation, where there are so many teachers but not as many openings.

What worries me is how this seems to be an ongoing issue every few years here in BC (I'm ignorant to the situations in other provinces, so bear with me). As a student a while back I never remembered this many school-day cuts or days off. It's going to be really apparent in the near future when most of these kids have to fend for themselves against students who are likely more prepared for the real world.

[iEatClams]

if it was just about money:

BC inflation is 1.5%

B.C. sees biggest jump in inflation rate as Canadian gas prices balloon in April

the BC government is offering too litter, 7.25% over 6 years. with most of it being back ended, the raises are near the end, so the effective raise is less than 1% a year.

it's negotiation. teachers want 4%+ a year.
this whole thing can end if they just sign right now. BC's inflation at 1.5%, and it's expected to climb, Canada Inflation is 2.%, somewhere along those lines.

1.5% - 2% per year for next 5 years. done deal.


but there's other factors such as classroom size etc.

[Nocardia]

Originally Posted by Gatorade

Forget about the BCTF or government sources.

Unbiased salary data here for each metro district: Teaching Salaries in BC's Metro Region | Make a Future

Most teachers are Cat5

Thanks for this!
I used the Vancouver Sun public sector salaries looking specifically in Coquitlam: Public Sector Salaries - Vancouver Sun

There are 100's of teachers over the supposed maximum (3500 employees in SD43, which I assume include custodial, administrators, aids and such, so maybe 1500 teachers?) and that is from 2012-2013 year but I don't think they have gotten a raise. It says ~1100 of the 3500 employees in SD-43 (BC School District 43: Coquitlam | Metro | Make a Future) make >$75000 which, in my opinion is quite good money.


I just am unsure how you can make more than the maximum (>$10,000 in many cases). Does anyone know (can't be from being "acting" principal for a few days)?

Anyways, this topic comes up every few years and I think my ideals are the same as before. $80,000 is A LOT of money to make as a teacher considering the benefits (2 months summer, winter/spring breaks, good health benefits, Pro-D days) but the fact that it takes 10 years is UNFAIR, especially considering how little the bottom end is. Everyone complaining they haven't gotten a raise is probably making ~$80,000/year whereas the new teachers are making, in my opinion, to little.

What I think should be the focus of the BCTF:
1. Create a 6 year salary differential (take 6 years to get to the maximum)
2. Keep the top salary the same for another 2-3 years, increase the base salary by at least 10%

[meme405]

Originally Posted by Nocardia

considering the benefits (2 months summer, winter/spring breaks, good health benefits, Pro-D days)

I thought teachers are supposed to work and develop themselves professionally on Pro-D days?

Anyway thats not the point, I pretty much agree with your point.

I think the teachers seriously need to move away from these short term negotiations and move to 5+ year terms. I hate how this topic is continuously coming up. Negotiate a fair 6 year deal and live by it.

Every 4 fucking years we deal with this.

EDIT: Just one thing though, wouldn't the 10 year time to get into the full time role just simply be due to supply and demand?

I mean if its such a tasking job and such shit pay, why are there so many qualified people trying to get in on this industry, and please don't start telling me because its such a fulfilling profession. If it weren't for the money 99% of people would not be working.

If anything maybe they should lower the pay until all the qualified people who want to be teachers are doing so, and all the people who want the big money will pursue other career paths....

[Nocardia]

Originally Posted by meme405

I thought teachers are supposed to work and develop themselves professionally on Pro-D days?

Anyway thats not the point, I pretty much agree with your point.

Yeah I put Pro-Ds in there because in other professions keeping up to date and develop professionally is usually on the person's own time AND expense and is NOT tax deductible. In their case, which is a great thing / benefit, they have a days pay and free education.

Originally Posted by meme405

EDIT: Just one thing though, wouldn't the 10 year time to get into the full time role just simply be due to supply and demand?

I mean if its such a tasking job and such shit pay, why are there so many qualified people trying to get in on this industry, and please don't start telling me because its such a fulfilling profession. If it weren't for the money 99% of people would not be working.

If anything maybe they should lower the pay until all the qualified people who want to be teachers are doing so, and all the people who want the big money will pursue other career paths....

I don't often hear new grads complaining that much about the salary compared to actually finding a job. The problem is, people are completely oblivious to look into supply/demand and how much the teachers make before doing the program. Perhaps something that should be taught in school? If I could make $80k and have guaranteed summers, spring break, christmas and all other holidays off, I would be a fool to say no.

I think most public sectors are around 6 years (I actually don't know but in my career and a few others it is). And logistically, the young teachers are usually the ones doing the extra-curricular (not always!) and the ones who get thrown around so it shouldn't take 10 years to get to be considered "experienced", probably ~4 years should suffice.

Anyways, beating a dead horse now I suppose.

[meme405]

Originally Posted by Nocardia

Yeah I put Pro-Ds in there because in other professions keeping up to date and develop professionally is usually on the person's own time AND expense and is NOT tax deductible. In their case, which is a great thing / benefit, they have a days pay and free education.

Thats a good point, the number of my own days off I have spent at conferences and day long courses in the name of development is pretty high. Just a couple weeks ago I spent 6 hours of my saturday at some bullshit conference.

Originally Posted by Nocardia

Anyways, beating a dead horse now I suppose.

It's okay, its a horse we beat every 3-4 years.