School districts across B.C. planning deep cuts to balance budgets

[CRS]

To be fair, I think both the Libs and teacher union negotiated in bad faith.

The teachers union thought that the NDP was going to go in power and so they'd get everything they wanted in 1 year and the Libs wanted things to end.

They both gambled and the teachers were on the losing end.

[quasi]

Originally Posted by Traum

I am going to keep iterating the same thing over and over and over again -- to those who have voted the BC Liberals back in for yet another 4 years, look what you have brought onto us...

The only reason the Liberals got back in is because Adrian Dix couldn't lead a gangbang in a whorehouse. The NDP probably could have had a Pet Rock as the head of the party and done better, that's on them. I'm ok with the Government not giving public sector unions an open cheque book, I'll take my licks.

[Traum]

^^ True, Adrian Dix was as useless as an NDP leader could possibly be.

[4444]

most important part of education is at home, not in the classroom.

don't get me wrong, teachers and infrastructure is really important... BUT i think parents are failing their kids.

as a kid, i remember my parents being interested in my school work, my development, my education - testing me, pushing me (healthily, as they knew i was very smart) - and because of this, i have continued my education through to age 31 and have a very fulfilling career... i was not pushed like that by teachers.

a teacher is a tool to be used, but nothing more. let's not lose the tool, but equally, i won't lose sleep over this

[underscore]

Originally Posted by tiger_handheld

Budget cuts? What ?

Tablets? What the ever loving fuck? The last thing a school should be wasting money on is "keeping up with technology". The tech needs of schools are very basic, they should spend money of teaching kids how to properly file taxes, not how to play Angry Birds.

[Mr.HappySilp]

Originally Posted by underscore

Tablets? What the ever loving fuck? The last thing a school should be wasting money on is "keeping up with technology". The tech needs of schools are very basic, they should spend money of teaching kids how to properly file taxes, not how to play Angry Birds.

Still don't get why kids needs tablets to learn. I read a reports that kids these days can swipe fine but can't use building blocks to build anything. Also it seems to me kids these days can't write very well (seems their hand writing is very bad). My aunts basically limit her son to only 2 hours of ipad/computer a week now vs the tenants who let her sons play with their ipad all day long.

I notice my aunt's son is more active, love to go outside and play sports and have more to talk about while tenants' sons just sit there and doesn't talk to you and keep playing with his ipad........

[underscore]

Spoiler alert: They don't. Grade school has nothing to do with technology aside from some specialty highschool classes (but even for those, you can build a pretty solid computer for the price of one POS tablet). Basic PC's with Word, Excel, Powerpoint are all you need for 95+% of school education. Shit I graduated in 2007 and I still remember teachers booking time in the library computer labs for a class to do research the odd time it was needed.

[Nabatron]

^thats exactly how my relative kid is! He's only 2 and kid plays on the iphone all day and when you try and take it away from him he cries and throws a temper tantrum...I just shake my head...

[inv4zn]

I remember I threw a tantrum when my dad turned off my video game because I went over my time limit...

He threw the thing away in front of my eyes (he didn't really, it turns out, he pretended to and then hid it for 6 months or something before giving it back to me) - never threw a tantrum again.

/offtopic.

[quasi]

Originally Posted by Mr.HappySilp

Still don't get why kids needs tablets to learn. I read a reports that kids these days can swipe fine but can't use building blocks to build anything. Also it seems to me kids these days can't write very well (seems their hand writing is very bad). My aunts basically limit her son to only 2 hours of ipad/computer a week now vs the tenants who let her sons play with their ipad all day long.

I notice my aunt's son is more active, love to go outside and play sports and have more to talk about while tenants' sons just sit there and doesn't talk to you and keep playing with his ipad........

It's all about balance I don't really think there is anything wrong with kids and technology as long as it doesn't run their lives. My son has his own computer and consoles, plays video games as well as an ipod but the time is monitored.

He also plays football 2 hours, 4 days a week during July-Oct, Laccross 1.5 hours 3 days a week Feb-June and swims in between. Above that he has to read to either my wife or myself every single night, because of this he can read at a high level above his age.

You have to keep on kids or they'll take the path of least resistance. My kid loves video games and he plays them I would say almost everyday but it's balanced out with exercise and other things to stimulate his mind.

[freakshow]

Kids should definitely not be deprived of technology, but I certainly don't think an elementary school (or high school) needs to buy iPads just so they are 'up to date'

[iEatClams]

Originally Posted by Nabatron

^thats exactly how my relative kid is! He's only 2 and kid plays on the iphone all day and when you try and take it away from him he cries and throws a temper tantrum...I just shake my head...

Originally Posted by inv4zn

I remember I threw a tantrum when my dad turned off my video game because I went over my time limit...

He threw the thing away in front of my eyes (he didn't really, it turns out, he pretended to and then hid it for 6 months or something before giving it back to me) - never threw a tantrum again.

/offtopic.

Yes this is off topic, but I think I blame this on blame parenting.

Actually, I blame a lot of today's problems on bad parenting. What does the kid know? It's the parents that enable the kids and buy them iphones and ipads when they are 5-6 years old.

When I was a kid, if I threw a tantrum, I would get my ass kicked. or the equivalent of what happened to inv4zn.


- I think it's because parents didnt grew up with all these goods and want the best for their kids, ie. so they spoil them. but this in fact might be harming their kids as it makes them spoiled brats.

- also I think parents these days also want their kids to grow up doing white collar jobs, and thus persuade them to do such work, but they dont know that there's LOTS of money to be made in the trades and that trade work is actually a lot easier than in the past due to safety regulations, technology, more set hours, or unions.

overall, I think we should be getting more kids into trades and such instead of "psychology" and "philosophy" majors. just my two cents.

[shenmecar]

I support teachers. They're probably one of the lowest paid professions out there that require a degree. Not a lot of people will know this but teachers put a lot of overtime in preparing lesson plans, marking assignments/test and whatnot. Teachers don't become a teacher for money, they do so because they enjoy teaching. Like the posts above have said, some parents these days DEPEND on teachers to do parenting for them. Imagine having to be a parent to 30 kids simultaneously..........

I don't think frivolous spending on tablets are justified, but neither is cutting back on teachers' salaries and laying off teachers that run extracurricular programs.

[meme405]

Having access to the latest technology is important in the classroom. Maybe not so much in elementary school but most definitely in high school.

I am a testament to the fact that technological prowess is an immediate advantage over other people when hunting for a job or to simplify daily tasks at work. The amount of automation I build into my daily routines thanks to my computer and technology increases my productivity greatly. This is directly stemming from the fact that I started using computers and tech so early on, and always had the latest gear at my disposal.

Someone above stated the most key point though, the classroom is one thing, but learning in the household is certainly just as important, if not more so.

And parents today are failing their children. I remember getting my ass whooped, or at least guilt tripped when I would bring home garbage grades. My parents were always on me about HW, or school stuff, or education. Without them being there, I wouldn't have had the motivation to do half of it.

EDIT: And inv4zn, my dad did the same thing. I played this one game a bunch, and I remember I did something bad one day, and my dad pulled the game out of the computer and broke the CD in front of my face. That probably straightened my ass out for a few months.

[quasi]

^^

To that point, if the technology is useful I really don't see a problem with it either. Even in construction we give our foreman Ipads, you would be surprised how much they've helped. Can't work on an area because someone is holding you up you can snap a photo or take a video of it, date it and link it to a set of drawings on the Ipod. You see another trade damaging or undoing your work, same deal. A site meeting down the road when you're getting blamed for holding up the job or maybe looking for an extra for some additional work you had to do no fault of your own you have the ammo to go battle for it. They have other uses as well, those are just a few off the top of my head.

[meme405]

Originally Posted by quasi

^^

To that point, if the technology is useful I really don't see a problem with it either. Even in construction we give our foreman Ipads, you would be surprised how much they've helped. Can't work on an area because someone is holding you up you can snap a photo or take a video of it, date it and link it to a set of drawings on the Ipod. You see another trade damaging or undoing your work, same deal. A site meeting down the road when you're getting blamed for holding up the job or maybe looking for an extra for some additional work you had to do no fault of your own you have the ammo to go battle for it. They have other uses as well, those are just a few off the top of my head.

Thats only a few of the great things about it.

It greatly reduces the amount of paperwork for clerical people, your document controllers job becomes a breeze, you always have the assurance you are working from the most current drawings, etc.

The more I think about it, the more I think introducing tech to kids as young as possible is a good idea, being current and capable is a huge asset.

Of course this comes with certain provisions, for example the technology cannot replace other things, like physical education, and being active, or learning basic mental math, etc.

I think you need everything in balance, but to outright say, iPads are not helpful to give to kids, is almost as wrong as proclaiming "Unions are fucking useless".

[underscore]

Originally Posted by meme405

I think you need everything in balance, but to outright say, iPads are not helpful to give to kids, is almost as wrong as proclaiming "Unions are fucking useless".

At >$500 a pop there are a lot better things to spend money on than ipads. With 250k high school aged students in BC, assuming a bit of a bulk discount that's $125 million into hardware that can't even perform any major functions and becomes obsolete at a stupidly fast rate.

Yes they can be useful to certain people, but for general highschool education they're horrible value for money. Generally tech-savvy kids will talk classes based around tech where they can get some extra exposure to technology so we don't need to give every kid a device.

And lets be honest here, just because someone is exposed to tech doesn't mean they're any good at using it. The vast majority of users these days are dumb as a post when it comes to their devices capabilities.

[4444]

Originally Posted by shenmecar

I support teachers. They're probably one of the lowest paid professions out there that require a degree. Not a lot of people will know this but teachers put a lot of overtime in preparing lesson plans, marking assignments/test and whatnot. Teachers don't become a teacher for money, they do so because they enjoy teaching. Like the posts above have said, some parents these days DEPEND on teachers to do parenting for them. Imagine having to be a parent to 30 kids simultaneously..........

I don't think frivolous spending on tablets are justified, but neither is cutting back on teachers' salaries and laying off teachers that run extracurricular programs.

i'm not disagreeing with you, HOWEVER, in general terms, they may be willing to take lesser pay (relatively, and to be honest, a degree gets you shit these days, so i'm not sure how true your statement is, i know i got paid $35K in my first job, with 2 very good degrees, i assume teachers get more than this) for job security, a full pension, summers off, etc.

you can't look at pay in isolation, you have to consider the whole package - guaranteed pay raises with seniority, job security, hours worked/vacation, benefits, and also some of the softer items like stress - i by no means am saying being a teacher isn't stressful, but it's a different type of pressure when compared to being in the corporate world and having a boss breathing down your neck - also, with experience, could one not say that the stress decreases as the issues are generally the same year in, year out, but you would have dealt with them before.

again, not saying i disagree with your point - i don't know enough to disagree, but i certainly think everything has to be taken into perspective with respects to their compensation package and hours on/off the job

[freakshow]

Originally Posted by shenmecar

I support teachers. They're probably one of the lowest paid professions out there that require a degree. Not a lot of people will know this but teachers put a lot of overtime in preparing lesson plans, marking assignments/test and whatnot. Teachers don't become a teacher for money, they do so because they enjoy teaching. Like the posts above have said, some parents these days DEPEND on teachers to do parenting for them. Imagine having to be a parent to 30 kids simultaneously..........

I don't think frivolous spending on tablets are justified, but neither is cutting back on teachers' salaries and laying off teachers that run extracurricular programs.

I disagree with you almost entirely. And my wife is a teacher.

Pay: I don't think they're one of the lowest paid professions. They get a very reasonable salary in their first year, and can go up to (I believe) high 70s without any further education. Masters gets you more.

Work Ethic: Most teacher's work HARD. No doubt about it. There are extra-ciricular activities, marking, homework, tests, etc. HOWEVER, teachers think that they're the only ones putting in overtime.. as just one example, in software, I used to work 10-10 regularly, and during crunch time, 1AM wasn't unusual.
The difference? Teachers also get 2 months of summer, 2 week spring break and 2 week winter break. That's ludicrous. So they do work hard, LIKE EVERYONE ELSE, but get huge vacation benefits.

Motivation: You think all teachers teach because they enjoy it? Some do, and some do it because it's easy with a direct career path. Spend 5 minutes in a teacher's lounge at any school, and you'll know that they're certainly not there for the joy of education. They're probably browsing teen gang bangs on pornhub during lunch time.

And lastly, if you, as a parent, depend on someone who did a random degree with a B.Ed on top, with probably a completely different set of cultural and moral values to you to do your parenting, you're screwed. Enjoy the extra dollar you made at work while sacrificing time with your kids.

edit: I should note that I'm not saying teachers are useless, or ALL teachers are like this. There are exceptions, but they certainly don't need to be put on some moral pedestal for taking this supposedly low paying, hard working job, just for the love of educating future generations.

[Traum]

^^ Dude, I'd have to disagree with many of your points here.

Pay
A newbie teacher's salary is only decent *if* they can find a secure and on-going teaching position, but how often does that happen? Before that, they are basically on-call workers -- praying and waiting for that phone call at some ungodly 5 or 6am so that they can be told where in the city they are to be "teaching" for the day. It also means they may or may not get any work, and guess what? No work = no pay. I don't have a very good grasp of the general wait time before somebody build up enough seniority to transition into a full time position, but I've known people that took anywhere between 4 -7 years to settle down with a full time gig. And even then, many continue with the hire in September, fired in June mantra for several more years.

Also, teachers are technically only paid 10 months of the year. You can arrange to have your pay spread over 12 months instead of 10, but that is a personal decision. So don't look at those 2 summer months as vacation. It might be more appropriate to call it unpaid leave.

Work Ethic
Yes, teachers get their 2 months summer break, 2 week spring break and 2 week winter break. But don't forget that it also means they are pretty much tied down for the rest of the year with little flexibility. Regular employees in other industries don't have anything nearly as rigid. Certainly there are crunch times where you aren't allowed any time off, but for the most part, it still isn't quite as rigid.

And that 10-10 work schedule that you spoke of for s/w developers? I'd have to say, software companies that require their employees to work that many hours seems like something isn't quite right. More typically, my experience with folks in the s/w development industry seems to suggest something closer to a 9-10 hour regular work day, but that is also punctuated by some 5-6 hour days in the slow season (or typically for a while after a product is released), and some insane 14-16 hour days during crunch time. Teachers, on the other hand, regularly put in their 7-8 hours worth of classroom time, and on top of that, prep, marking, admin duties, and extra-curricular activity time. This happens pretty much everyday except for during those breaks we mentioned earlier.

[Tapioca]

The province has to find a way to get out of the negotiation business. Its role should be limited to establishing baseline standards and providing funding for school boards. The boards should be free to set standards for pay, benefits, etc. They may not even want to negotiate with the BCTF at all in some cases.

[Traum]

Oh man... watching this interview video just fxxking boils me up. This is with the government's chief negotiator, Peter Cameron:

Raw: BCPSEA chief negotiator responds to BCTF | Watch News Videos Online

Starting at the 7 min mark, in particular, I am just absolutely floored and enraged by how unscrupulous someone can be, especially in front of media.

1. The BCPSEA (government's representing agent) proposes to lock out secondary teachers on June 25 and 26. The English 10 and Social Studies 11 government exams would be written on June 24. With the teachers locked out June 25 and 26, and June 27 being an admin day, these graduation-requirement exams cannot be marked. So how is the BCPSEA (and the provincial government by extension) not doing something that interferes with exams getting marked, and students receiving their grades?!

2. Teachers will be forced to leave the school building 45 minutes after class ends. However, Mr. Cameron believes teachers, when kicked out of the school building, can continue to volunteer their time in athletics (which takes place on school grounds) and in graduation ceremonies. "The government can't lock people out from volunteer work" is what Cameron said. So the government does recognize that the extra-curricular activities teachers do are "work," but teachers are not compensated for them (and teachers aren't asking to be compensated for such un-paid work), and teachers should continue to volunteer their time when they are being locked out, and their salaries are being deducted?

Way to go, Mr. Cameron, BCPSEA, and the provincial government! If this isn't bullying and negotiation in bad faith, I dunno what they could possibly be.

[Tapioca]

As someone who was raised in the public school system, I will continue to support public education. However, whenever a labour dispute emerges, what irks me is that teachers think that they're the only workers under siege. The reality is that, these days, every worker is under siege. The BCTF has done a poor job of getting public opinion on its side - it shouldn't be chatising politicians and their salaries - it should be relating its working conditions to those of regular taxpayers. Maybe the problem is is that they can't because they know what teachers have is actually pretty good.

[inv4zn]

I have great respect for the majority of teachers. Yes, there are always a few "bad" ones, but that goes to any circle of any level in any society.

And as with any real problem, there's no real answer.

A few things I note now thinking back to highschool, and what I observe now that I'm "grown up":

Teacher salary aside, the occupation of Teacher is more onerous than before, simply because society now has higher standards. It's not too long ago that poorly performing, or even disabled students were labelled as dunce, and essentially ignored by the teacher. We can't do that anymore (rightfully so), and there are special programs and special educators, etc. These things cost money (more teachers, higher education, etc.) . Should parents of children with disabilities be burdened with special requirements? I dunno, honestly.

That being said, there are lots of teachers (more recent ones) that became teachers because it was an easy career path. Hence the oversaturation of teachers, which inevitably leads to more being on-call, etc.

All things said, I don't have any kids yet...I wonder what public education will look like when I have kids old enough to attend school.

[freakshow]

Originally Posted by Traum

Pay
A newbie teacher's salary is only decent *if* they can find a secure and on-going teaching position, but how often does that happen? Before that, they are basically on-call workers -- praying and waiting for that phone call at some ungodly 5 or 6am so that they can be told where in the city they are to be "teaching" for the day. It also means they may or may not get any work, and guess what? No work = no pay. I don't have a very good grasp of the general wait time before somebody build up enough seniority to transition into a full time position, but I've known people that took anywhere between 4 -7 years to settle down with a full time gig. And even then, many continue with the hire in September, fired in June mantra for several more years.

Maybe times have changed.. I have a few friends who are teachers, in addition to my wife, and I think the longest I heard someone had to be on-call (which definitely sucks) was 2 years. If 4-7 is the new average.. that would be really crappy.

Originally Posted by Traum

Also, teachers are technically only paid 10 months of the year. You can arrange to have your pay spread over 12 months instead of 10, but that is a personal decision. So don't look at those 2 summer months as vacation. It might be more appropriate to call it unpaid leave.

Yeah, lot's of teachers try to use this argument. The problem is that admitting that they only work 9-10 months out of the year means that they shouldn't complain about their salary because they should find a summer job each year (they will go bonkers if you bring that up). Then they resort to how hard they work during the other 9 months, but I already told you, many people work equally as hard, if not harder, sometimes for less pay.

Originally Posted by Traum

Work Ethic
Yes, teachers get their 2 months summer break, 2 week spring break and 2 week winter break. But don't forget that it also means they are pretty much tied down for the rest of the year with little flexibility. Regular employees in other industries don't have anything nearly as rigid. Certainly there are crunch times where you aren't allowed any time off, but for the most part, it still isn't quite as rigid.

This is true. My wife and I can't take vacation outside of peak seasons.. and it sucks. However, if you have kids, you're only taking vacation during those times anyways, so it's not as bad as you make it seem.

Originally Posted by Traum

And that 10-10 work schedule that you spoke of for s/w developers? I'd have to say, software companies that require their employees to work that many hours seems like something isn't quite right. More typically, my experience with folks in the s/w development industry seems to suggest something closer to a 9-10 hour regular work day, but that is also punctuated by some 5-6 hour days in the slow season (or typically for a while after a product is released), and some insane 14-16 hour days during crunch time. Teachers, on the other hand, regularly put in their 7-8 hours worth of classroom time, and on top of that, prep, marking, admin duties, and extra-curricular activity time. This happens pretty much everyday except for during those breaks we mentioned earlier.

I agree here, 10-10 was a bit extreme, but 9 hours is definitely normal, and 10-11 isn't abnormal. Also, most teachers work more in their early years as their getting their curriculum in place, but to assume that most teachers work MORE than 10 hours a day, I think, would be incorrect. Which makes them equal to many other industries.