Malaysian airline crash in Ukraine

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by murd0c

When someone is banned from a thread can they still go into and not post or are they unable to open it at all?

They can still view it. If he wants he can post about it in his thread.

[underscore]

Originally Posted by godwin

Or you can try it yourself with a SAM simulator

https://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Though only covers up to Geckos. It is not as easy as people think.

IFF only applies to military aircrafts NOT civilian aircrafts. Apparently the missile launcher suspected can't tell the difference between civilian and military unless hooked up to the ATC (which I suspect they didn't as they are "non government actors")

I don't know the stats on how many people are trained to use these kinds of systems, but to me it seems pretty plausible that out of all the rebels running around the region that some are ex-military and a couple of them may be at least somewhat familiar with the systems.

[Hakkaboy]

Originally Posted by FS1992EG

Which pointed the finger first is usually the guilty one. And the Americans were the first to point the finger at the Russian Rebels. So I would say that US had a hand in it.

So whoever smelt it dealt it?

[godwin]

Think in the Russian air defense designers' perspective: Chances are of civilian aircraft at times of war is pretty low (not to mention private airplane ownership was unheard off when the system was designed). They also know air force is most likely way that "Westerners" will use to attack Russia, so pretty much friendlies travel from East to West and very rarely West to East. Basically these things are designed to hit anything that moves (friends or enemies). They rather have a false positive at times of war. The rest of the dials you see in the simulator have more to do with the diagnostic of the system rather than identification of the aircraft. Remember the system is analog, that's why you see so many ammeters, voltmeters etc etc

Last time those thing used at a war (with Georgia), they hit their own.

Originally Posted by JD¹³

Touché.

[godwin]

Yes it is easy to fire those things. Just know discriminating between friend and foe is an art within itself. (obviously whoever fired it didn't care)

Originally Posted by underscore

I don't know the stats on how many people are trained to use these kinds of systems, but to me it seems pretty plausible that out of all the rebels running around the region that some are ex-military and a couple of them may be at least somewhat familiar with the systems.

[FS1992EG]

Originally Posted by Hakkaboy

So whoever smelt it dealt it?

Dr George Simon, PhD

He's been publishing a series of articles on the habitual behaviors that not only keep persons with disturbed characters from developing a sense of accountability and responsibility but which also serve as effective tactics of manipulation.

The tactic of blaming has sometimes been called projecting the blame. The term projection stems from psychodynamic psychology and refers to one of the automatic mental behaviors conceptualized by traditional theorists as ego defense mechanisms. The rationale behind that notion is that sometimes individuals unconsciously “project” onto others motivations, intentions, or actions that they actually harbor themselves but which they would feel far too unnerved or guilty about to acknowledge as their own.

Sometimes the tactic of blaming can be quite subtle. By calling attention to a wide variety of contributing circumstances, a manipulator can effectively obscure his or her role in the creation of a problem. This “it wasn’t me” tactic is hard to detect when your attention is drawn to other “culprits” through this diversionary sleight of hand.

[StylinRed]

Did you guys hear about cyclists Maarten De Jonge? he had tickets on missing flight MH370 but changed his plans last minute...he also had tickets for flight MH17 and changed his plans again

Maarten De Jonge cheats death twice by switching MH370 and MH17 flights | National Post

Dutch man cheats death twice: Cyclist booked on flights MH370 and MH17, but changed plans at last minute

Maarten De Jonge cheats death twice by switching MH370 and MH17 flights

A Dutch man cheated death on both recent doomed Malaysia Airlines flights after booking tickets on MH370 and MH17 but changing plans at the last minute.

Maarten De Jonge, 29, a cyclist who rides with Malaysia’s Terengganu Cycling Team, switched from MH370 in March to avoid a lengthy stopover and switched from MH17 last week to take a later flight and save money.

“It’s inconceivable,” he told Dutch public broadcaster RTV Oost. “I am very sorry for the passengers and their families, yet I am very pleased I’m unharmed.”

[xpl0sive]

Originally Posted by underscore

I don't know the stats on how many people are trained to use these kinds of systems, but to me it seems pretty plausible that out of all the rebels running around the region that some are ex-military and a couple of them may be at least somewhat familiar with the systems.

Russia/Ukraine still has mandatory military service for everyone who does not go to University after high school. Majority of those who are involved in the conflict are 25-40 years old, and have most likely received some kind of military training.

As far as trying to figure out who shot the plane down, I doubt that will ever happen. Both sides will keep pointing fingers at each other but the real truth will stay hidden.

If Ukrainian military shot the plane down, nothing really changes. They would say "we were scared of Russia bombing us, we thought it was a military plane"

If pro-Russian separatists shot the plane down (Note these are simple people, not Russian military acting on Russian government's orders), Russia would issue a statement saying that the separatists were acting on their own with no direction from the Russian government whatsoever.

Those in this thread talking about economic sanctions, that has been tried before. Back when this conflict first started the EU threatened Russia with sanctions. Funny thing about sanctions they work both ways. EU quickly realised that they need Russia more than Russia needs them. Therefore no sanctions ensued.

It is sad that a plane full of innocent people got shot down needlessly, but such is war. When the US was in Iraq, I imagine a lot more than 300 innocent people died from their constant bombing because they were looking for "terrorists". In reality, all US was looking for was OIL.

At least in the Ukrainian conflict there are people who are fighting for their nationality, they want to be recognized for their heritage and want to be treated equally. Before the conflict began, Ukraine was denying Russian's access to pension, medical services, etc. These people were Ukrainian citizens but were of Russian heritage... of course the Western media will never talk about any of that. Their main goal is to make Russia look as evil as possible. It has been that way since the Cold War and I don't expect it to change any time soon. Unfortunately most people are too ignorant or lazy to question what the media feeds them, so we end up with generations of people who genuinely believe that Russia is some evil place on Earth where they drink Vodka and make evil plans of taking over the World....

[Noir]

Originally Posted by StylinRed

Did you guys hear about cyclists Maarten De Jonge? he had tickets on missing flight MH370 but changed his plans last minute...he also had tickets for flight MH17 and changed his plans again

Maarten De Jonge cheats death twice by switching MH370 and MH17 flights | National Post

Feels like Final Destination.

I wouldn't wanna be on the plane the next flight this guy books.

[dangonay]

Originally Posted by xpl0sive

As far as trying to figure out who shot the plane down, I doubt that will ever happen. Both sides will keep pointing fingers at each other but the real truth will stay hidden.

Had the crash site been secured immediately they'd have a very good idea what happened. There would undoubtedly be shrapnel or other remains from the missile that struck the plane, which would allow investigators to say with certainty the exact type of missile it was. Knowing the missile they could then round up all the launchers in the area that could have fired the missile. It would be easy to match the missile with the launcher it came from. It's not rocket science, as they say.

[xpl0sive]

Originally Posted by dangonay

Had the crash site been secured immediately they'd have a very good idea what happened. There would undoubtedly be shrapnel or other remains from the missile that struck the plane, which would allow investigators to say with certainty the exact type of missile it was. Knowing the missile they could then round up all the launchers in the area that could have fired the missile. It would be easy to match the missile with the launcher it came from. It's not rocket science, as they say.

so you find the launcher. how do you prove who fired the missle?

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

scientific deduction DUHHH!!!

the hipbone is connected to the tail bone, the tail bone is connected to the something else... and... missile launcher found.


i wouldn't know actually. a gun and bullet i know how they do it. but missile... no idea. lol. i aint a .... wait for it...

missile scientist.

[underscore]

Originally Posted by xpl0sive

so you find the launcher. how do you prove who fired the missle?

Ted. Ted did it.

[StylinRed]

Originally Posted by dangonay

Had the crash site been secured immediately they'd have a very good idea what happened. There would undoubtedly be shrapnel or other remains from the missile that struck the plane, which would allow investigators to say with certainty the exact type of missile it was. Knowing the missile they could then round up all the launchers in the area that could have fired the missile. It would be easy to match the missile with the launcher it came from. It's not rocket science, as they say.

Ukraines BUK missile launchers are courtesy of Russia.. as are their missiles...

The separatists, if they do have rocket launchers (so far its only been accused) would likely have been scavenged from the area which are also from Russia...

If they were given BUKs from Russia... well those would also be from Russia...


so I don't think what you suggest would have helped?

[dangonay]

Originally Posted by xpl0sive

so you find the launcher. how do you prove who fired the missle?

You likely won't find the actual person, but do you really need to? All you need to know is who had possession of the launcher. Was it in Ukraine held territory or rebel held?

There are lots of ways to see where a vehicle has been. The types of dirt on the tracks. Any vegetation stuck to the vehicle. Take a sample of the fuel and compare it to tankers and other vehicles to find out who it's been grouped with.

As to whether or not a launcher fired a missile, well that's easy. There would be propellant residue on the launcher itself and even on the other missiles. Has they located the launcher they could even have followed the tracks to see where it's been and look for a patch of ground that shows evidence of a missile launch (if they haven't covered it up, which would waste valuable time when you're trying to flee a crime scene).

The bottom line, as I stated previously, is the area should have been secured immediately by a joint military group. Nobody gets in or out until cleared. Had people been watching the area then all activity (like movement of vehicles/troops) could have been monitored. There should have been planes in the air right away to start this process. As it stands, the investigation has been fucked beyond repair.

[Harvey Specter]

A haunting premonition: 'What will happen if the airplane crashes?' asks boy boarding MH17

In a bedroom in a townhouse near Amsterdam, Miguel Panduwinata reached out for his mother. "Mama, may I hug you?"
Samira Calehr wrapped her arms around her 11-year-old son, who'd been oddly agitated for days, peppering her with questions about death, about his soul, about God. The next morning, she would drop Miguel and his big brother Shaka at the airport so they could catch Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, the first leg of their journey to Bali to visit their grandmother.

Her normally cheerful, well-travelled boy should have been excited. His silver suitcase sat in the living room, ready to go. Jetskiing and surfing in paradise awaited. But something was off. A day earlier, while playing soccer, Miguel had burst out: "How would you choose to die? What would happen to my body if I was buried? Would I not feel anything because our souls go back to God?"

And now, the night before his big trip, Miguel refused to release his mother from his grasp.
He's just going to miss me, Calehr told herself. So she stretched out beside him and held him all night.

It was 11 p.m. on Wednesday, July 16. Miguel, Shaka and the 296 other people aboard Flight 17 had about 15 hours left to live.

The next morning, Samira Calehr and her friend Aan ushered her sons onto the train to the airport. They were joking and laughing. Shaka, 19, had just finished his first year of college, where he was studying textile engineering, and promised to keep an eye on Miguel. Their other brother, Mika, 16, hadn't been able to get a seat on Flight 17 and would travel to Bali the next day.

At the check-in counter, Calehr fussed over her boys' luggage. Shaka, meanwhile, realized he'd forgotten to pack socks. Calehr promised to buy him some and send them along with Mika.

Finally, they were outside customs. The boys hugged Calehr goodbye and walked toward passport control.

Suddenly, Miguel whirled around and ran back, throwing his arms around his mother.

"Mama, I'm going to miss you," he said. "What will happen if the airplane crashes?"

What was this all about? she wondered.

"Don't say that," she said, squeezing him. "Everything will be OK."

Shaka tried to reassure them both. "I will take care of him," he said to his mom. "He's my baby."

She watched the two boys walk away. But Miguel kept looking back at his mother. His big brown eyes looked sad.

Then he vanished from view.

Flight 17 took off around 12:15 p.m. on what should have been an 11 hour and 45 minute flight.

It lasted two hours.

Calehr had just finished buying Shaka's socks when her phone rang. It was her friend Aan. "Where are you?" he screamed. "The plane crashed!"

She made it home just in time to faint.

She grapples now with the what-ifs, the astronomical odds, the realization that the world she knew has grown alien in a blink. She thinks about how her baby boy seemed to sense that his time on earth was running short. She imagines the futures that will never be: Shaka's dream of becoming a textile engineer, gone. Miguel's dream of becoming a go-kart race driver, gone.

How could he have known? How could she have known?
"I should have listened to him," she says softly. "I should have listened to him."

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/haunting-p...072353607.html

[HonestTea]

Originally Posted by riff raff

A haunting premonition: 'What will happen if the airplane crashes?' asks boy boarding MH17





https://ca.news.yahoo.com/haunting-p...072353607.html

What a sad sad sad story

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by dangonay

You likely won't find the actual person, but do you really need to? All you need to know is who had possession of the launcher. Was it in Ukraine held territory or rebel held?

Spoiler!

There are lots of ways to see where a vehicle has been. The types of dirt on the tracks. Any vegetation stuck to the vehicle. Take a sample of the fuel and compare it to tankers and other vehicles to find out who it's been grouped with.

As to whether or not a launcher fired a missile, well that's easy. There would be propellant residue on the launcher itself and even on the other missiles. Has they located the launcher they could even have followed the tracks to see where it's been and look for a patch of ground that shows evidence of a missile launch (if they haven't covered it up, which would waste valuable time when you're trying to flee a crime scene).

The bottom line, as I stated previously, is the area should have been secured immediately by a joint military group. Nobody gets in or out until cleared. Had people been watching the area then all activity (like movement of vehicles/troops) could have been monitored. There should have been planes in the air right away to start this process. As it stands, the investigation has been fucked beyond repair.

I know you've done vehicular accident reconstruction before, but not air crash investigation!