Bell accused of 'ganging up' on resale buyers by blacklisting phones

[Acura604]

Bell accused of 'ganging up' on resale buyers by blacklisting phones - British Columbia - CBC News

HOPING this would bring change to the industry but.. .probably not!




A Montreal father is taking on Canada’s largest telecom, after Bell blacklisted his teenager’s phone — not because it was reported stolen, but because the original buyer didn’t pay Bell for the device under contract.

"It infuriated me," said Jeremy Price-Williams. "It’s a case of the big guys ganging up on the little guys."

"It’s my phone, and they are blacklisting it for no reason," said David Price-Williams, 17.

The blacklist is part of an international phone database. Carriers flag phones its customers report lost or stolen, using an ID number unique to the hardware, so other telecoms will know not to activate them.

In an opposite case, a Vancouver customer is upset with Virgin Mobile — owned by Bell — because the carrier failed to blacklist her phone, after she emailed to report it stolen while on a trip to Nicaragua.

"It didn’t get blacklisted, shut off, deactivated or anything," said Michelle Allen.

She said she had to battle with Virgin over $2,700 in roaming charges racked up by the thief. Allen said Virgin forgave the bill only after she threatened to go public with CBC.

"The blacklisting system doesn’t seem to work. Or else, they are just using it when it is convenient for them," said Allen.

'Who owns the phone?'

David Price-Williams, the Montreal phone owner, suggested Bell is misusing the system by blacklisting phones it can't collect on after they are unlocked and resold to people like him.

"You should be able to buy used phones if you want. They shouldn’t be controlling the market like that," he said.

His father is taking Bell to small claims court.

"It all boils down to, who owns the phone? And everybody at Bell we spoke to said the seller … he has every right to sell that phone."

The teen bought the Samsung Galaxy Note 4 in December through an ad on Kijiji, with $700 scraped together from his minimum-wage earnings.

Price-Williams asked the seller for his ID and his receipt, which showed Bell shipped it to the same customer, at the same address as on his driver’s licence. That name and address is also listed on Canada 411.

The teen also called Bell, asking if the phone was restricted by contract.

Resale OK'd by Bell

"[Bell] said it would be OK, and that the phone was totally fine for me to buy," said Price-Williams.

Weeks later, the device stopped working. Telus — his provider — told him it had been blacklisted by Bell.

"Unless the previous owner has his account up to date, the phone will continue to be on the national blacklist," Bell wrote in an email to the teen's father.

"I have contacted our fraud team to see if we are able to make an exception, because you did give us a call prior to purchasing the unit. Unfortunately the answer I got was a no, as the national blacklist is not controlled by Bell."

The Canadian Wireless Telecommunications Association gave Go Public the opposite information.

"Each participating carrier … is solely responsible for their own use of the database," said spokesman Marc Choma.

Any phone can be shut down

Fine print on the blacklist website suggests any phone can be made useless, as all carriers share information through the system.

"In certain circumstances, a wireless service provider may block a particular wireless device because of billing issues with the owner," it reads.

"Other Canadian wireless carriers may or may not allow such a wireless device to be used on their wireless networks."

"They should be going after the original owner of the phone," said technology industry analyst Carmi Levy.

"This makes it easier for the carriers to force you to buy new, because you are afraid to buy used because there’s a greater chance of it being cut off from their networks. Of course you are going to go to their store."

The industry association called that "ludicrous," but also stressed consumers shouldn't buy phones posted on Kijiji and other sites.

Avoid resale sites, telecoms say

"We strongly advise that Canadians only purchase pre-owned wireless devices from trusted sources, such as retailers, service providers, family, friends or through a referral," said Choma.

He said the Canadian Wireless Telecommunications Association​ asked Kijiji to post warnings on used phone ads, warning they could be blacklisted, but Kijiji didn't co-operate. Kijiji didn't respond to that accusation, but sent Go Public a list of tips, as well as a link to a Kijiji blog, which includes information about the blacklist.

Choma also said telecoms have every right to blacklist phones for fraud against the telecom.

"Let’s say someone … signs up for service … has no intention of ever paying … turns around and sells [the] subsidized device," said Choma. "That does ultimately create a billing issue for the carrier, but it is also fraud."

Bell told Go Public it doesn’t blacklist phones over simple delinquent bills. Go Public asked how many phones it has blacklisted, but received no answer.

Bell now claims it flagged the Montreal phone after it found the original buyer used a fake identity. That means it can’t go after him for non-payment.

"At that point, we assigned the phone to the … database, as we do with all phones stolen via fraud or other means."

Rogers told Go Public it does not blacklist phones for fraud like this — only when they are reported lost or stolen. Telus said it does report phones obtained through fraud, but said it would try to do the "right thing" for the innocent buyer in a case like this.

Meanwhile, in the Vancouver case, Bell said Virgin didn’t blacklist or deactivate Allen’s phone right away, because she reported it stolen via an email address it uses for billing.

[Mr.HappySilp]

When you buy used phone there is always a risk. What the buyer should do is go after the seller. Otherwise anyone and other grandma could just sign a new contract unlock the phone and say give it to their family members or friends to use on other networks while the orginal carrier to force to shallow the cost of the phone.

[whitev70r]

I don't see the problem. Original guy gets a nice free phone from Bell for a 24 month contract. He/she sells it to a 17 year old and stops paying for the Bell contract. Of course, Bell is going to blacklist phone. If not, people will use this loophole all day long. This was on the POS seller.

Issue here is buyer seemed to have done all the right things in buying the used phone, even calling Bell and they told him it was fine ... so that's where the ball got dropped.

[Gnomes]

So technically, the customer does not own the phone until the 24 month contract is up without balance owing?

[Ludepower]

This should hurt the original buyers credit score. Bell should take him to collections
Phone should be blacklisted if stolen...not because of delinquent payments.

[Mikoyan]

Update via Mobilesyrup.

TLDR: Phone was activated with stolen/fraudulent ID.

Update: Representatives from Bell sent us an email with the following comment: “Our reason wasn’t that [the previous owner] was behind on his payments – our reason was that he obtained the phone through fraud.” As stated above, carriers that delist devices due to fraud or billing issues may not be submitted to the Blacklist, which looks like what happened.

In a comment to us, the CWTA also disputed the CBC’s claim that the original phone’s owner was behind on his payment. In a message to us, Marc Choma, senior director of communications at the CWTA, said, “It sure sounds like one of the bigger scams we hear about on a regular basis that criminals use to profit from illegally purchasing a subsidized phone and then reselling it to unsuspecting victims.”

While there is evidence that GSM Blacklist tampering is possible, where former owners can call to blacklist a phone after it has been sold, rendering the device useless, in this case it appears Bell did the right thing by cutting off access to the stolen device.

[Mikoyan]

Don't forget part 2 of the scam that typically happens too: Original buyer takes the extended warranty/device protection plan, sells phone. Then reports it to Bell as lost, gets 2nd device. Sells again. Profits 2x and 2nd phone gets blacklisted too.

[terkan]

lol i honestly don't know what checking the ID is going to do like some people suggest when buying a phone used.. even if the ID and address matches a bill.. it can still be a fraud.. how else you think they got the phone the first place? thru fake ids.. a lot of us average joes won't be able to tell whats real and whats fake nowadays with the technologies out there.. and it'll take the telecom 3 months before they shut down a fraud account.. i guess one way to see if it's fake or not? see if their account have been opened for more than 3 months? which would means they'd have to pay for at least 3 months of service to keep the account running before selling it.. which would make it pointless for them to try and sell it for profit if they were indeed frauding.. 3 months worth of service + the cost to buy the subsidized phone defeats the purpose of frauding.