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Vancouver Off-Topic / Current EventsThe off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.
You are probably aware that last week on may 23, Ireland legalized same sex marriage and the world rejoiced in the name of equality. A win for people who are for and defeat for those against.
Now, what you may or may not know is the fact that just a few hours north and a day later (may 24), the Scotts banned creationism from their science classes. Again, the world rejoice but this time for discrimination. A win for people who are against creationism and a defeat for those for.
Now, what you may or may not know is the fact that just a few hours north and a day later (may 24), the Scotts banned creationism from their science classes. Again, the world rejoice but this time for discrimination. A win for people who are against creationism and a defeat for those for.
Creationism isn't science and shouldn't be taught in science class.
Gay people are people and should have the same rights, such as the right to get married, as straight people.
It's that simple.
People that believe in creation are free to believe in it all the want regardless of what's taught in science class. There would only be "irony" if creationism was banned even outside science class. I'd be completely against kids being taught religion in school. I'm fine with them being taught ABOUT religion. Everyone should be educated about religion since you gain a better understanding of how society and the world works.
"God created the world." is not okay in class. "Christians think God created the world...therefore..." is fine in social studies...not science.
like the dude says... it's a belief system that has spread just like religion.
"The biggest scientific delusion of all is that science already knows the answers. The details still need working out, but the fundamental questions are settled, in principle."
if you believe and fall into any dogmatic type thinking, even with science, you're just another religious zealot.
creationism... the definition can still be true. but just not the details the creationists here have described.
you go around talking to "science" believers and you can see how dogmatic and idiotic they are. they talk and discuss things... the attitude they give off is dogmatic and religious. as if they KNOW the fundamental essence of existence described by the axioms and dogmatic rules of science... as if those are 100% correct and you just have to accept it.
no man... no.
i'm willing to bet, that a high % of people on this forum, who are non religious, and "follow/believe" in science, are no better than creationists. they are just regurgitating dogmatic axioms. basically they converted to a new religion.
i don't blame them though. i think it's just how the basic human mind works. people just need a set of rules to follow. they're not programmed to be leaders or people that make a real difference. they're just the average worker ant... and average worker ants work best when dictated a set of rules which they can work freely within.
it's not that people try to be idiots. it's that people ARE idiots. LOL.
you need the einsteins and other leaders to discover and dictate NEW set of rules which everyone else plays by. but the leaders and genius's don't have to play by those rules, because they see past that, they are the rule makers. they discover new things. everyone else just follows the past.
science is a tool and process. nothing more or less.
You know what schools should really focus on? Stuff that we can use in the future, like making money, building better relationships, people skills, trades, math, computer/technology, survival skills, street smart, the list goes on. Not religion, not history, not philosophies, kids should go learn those shit on their own time.
The way I saw these two things beings related was...
Ireland 'accepted' another view of the word 'marriage' - for some marriage is still binary, if you will - man and women - nothing else. For others it's not binary.
Scottland on the other hand, took a 'theory' called creationism and banned it outright from the science class (all we know it could be from public education, but it's unclear at this time - but lets presume it is as that would make the most sense).
The definition of 'how humans came into existence' is now binary (evolution only) there is no room for debate (it doesn't matter how far fetch the theory of creationism is - it no longer matters)
The two are related because, in one instance you are expanding the meaning by telling the world 'hey there is more than your traditional definition of marriage' while on the other 'hey there is only one definition of how we came into existence'.
To me this is the bigger picture.
Life is about choices.
It doesn't matter how far fetched those choices seem to be or claim to be.
Each individual should be given the opportunity to chose their own views and for most of us we start to learn these 'views' at school (useful or not).
__________________
Sometimes we tend to be in despair when the person we love leaves us, but the truth is, it's not our loss, but theirs, for they left the only person who couldn't give up on them.
Make the effort and take the risk..
"Do what you feel in your heart to be right- for you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't." - Eleanor Roosevelt
Scottland on the other hand, took a 'theory' called creationism and banned it outright from the science class (all we know it could be from public education, but it's unclear at this time - but lets presume it is as that would make the most sense).
The definition of 'how humans came into existence' is now binary (evolution only) there is no room for debate (it doesn't matter how far fetch the theory of creationism is - it no longer matters)
theory
[thee-uh-ree, theer-ee]
Examples
Word Origin
noun, plural theories.
1.
a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonly regarded as correct, that can be used as principles of explanation and prediction for a class of phenomena:
Einstein's theory of relativity.
Synonyms: principle, law, doctrine.
__________________ Until the lions have their own historians, the history of the hunt will always glorify the hunter.
You guys do realize that I put "theory" in quotation marks for a reason right?
__________________
Sometimes we tend to be in despair when the person we love leaves us, but the truth is, it's not our loss, but theirs, for they left the only person who couldn't give up on them.
Make the effort and take the risk..
"Do what you feel in your heart to be right- for you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't." - Eleanor Roosevelt
^ if the vast majority of the respected scientific community agrees on something, should we still waste valuable school time teaching something with no scientific backing held by a minority?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger_handheld
The way I saw these two things beings related was...
I think the ways in which they are completely different are much more significant than the ways in which they are related. The only way in which I see them as similar is their shared likelihood of annoying members of a certain religious group who are stereotypically not terribly good at understanding the entire world does not have to bow to their churches outdated ideas.
__________________ 1991 Toyota Celica GTFour RC // 2007 Toyota Rav4 V6 // 2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee
1992 Toyota Celica GT-S ["sold"] \\ 2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee CRD [sold] \\ 2000 Jeep Cherokee [sold] \\ 1997 Honda Prelude [sold] \\ 1992 Jeep YJ [sold/crashed] \\ 1987 Mazda RX-7 [sold] \\ 1987 Toyota Celica GT-S [crushed]
Quote:
Originally Posted by maksimizer
half those dudes are hotter than ,my GF.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RevYouUp
reading this thread is like waiting for goku to charge up a spirit bomb in dragon ball z
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good_KarMa
OH thank god. I thought u had sex with my wife. :cry:
The way I saw these two things beings related was...
Ireland 'accepted' another view of the word 'marriage' - for some marriage is still binary, if you will - man and women - nothing else. For others it's not binary.
Scottland on the other hand, took a 'theory' called creationism and banned it outright from the science class (all we know it could be from public education, but it's unclear at this time - but lets presume it is as that would make the most sense).
The definition of 'how humans came into existence' is now binary (evolution only) there is no room for debate (it doesn't matter how far fetch the theory of creationism is - it no longer matters)
The two are related because, in one instance you are expanding the meaning by telling the world 'hey there is more than your traditional definition of marriage' while on the other 'hey there is only one definition of how we came into existence'.
To me this is the bigger picture.
Life is about choices.
It doesn't matter how far fetched those choices seem to be or claim to be.
Each individual should be given the opportunity to chose their own views and for most of us we start to learn these 'views' at school (useful or not).
I respect that your religion is important to you, I really do. Whatever it does for you and your family is probably a good thing for the most part.
However creationism is not a theory, and is not something to teach as a valid alternative to what we can best theorize is actually the origin of our species. Although it's harmless to believe and teach your own children in church and at home, it shouldn't be taught to people who aren't a part of your religion. Public school has to be agnostic.
Many religious groups have their own "theories" (quote unquote, as you used) but like your creationism, they are simply outdated ways of explaining the origin of our species. There was a "time before science" and people needed ways to explain things. Not only would it be unfair to students of every other religious "theory" to teach creationism in science in public schools, it would be literally wrong, since it's not scientific (as you said so yourself in another post).
As for marriage, you said it right there "for some marriage is between a man and a woman". Well for those people, they are free to marry a man if they are a woman, and vice versa. For others, marriage is not binary. Marriage is between two people who want to spend the rest of their lives together, and make that commitment. Why would you want to prevent people from doing that just because they're the same gender? It makes no logical sense... Just because you have specific beliefs (and again, I respect those beliefs), doesn't mean the rest of the world has to adhere to them.
And the subjects are not equal. Nobody is forcing you to not teach your children about creationism. We just don't want to teach our children about it. But if we want to, we have the choice. And if a gay couple wants to marry, they have the choice now too (finally)
You guys are still sitting here debating a pointless topic. Who cares if creationism is a theory or a reality. The point is simple. It's foundations are based on biblical notions and therefore has no place in the public sector school system. There isn't much else too it.
It's REALLY pointless and circular arguing someone's belief system. If you believe it in, respect, power to you, no one can tell you what you should or should not believe in, personally.
But, the point that it should be taught in a science classroom is nonsensical. One religious belief system simply cannot be promoted to young, impressionable minds - by the government that is.
You guys are still sitting here debating a pointless topic. Who cares if creationism is a theory or a reality. The point is simple. It's foundations are based on biblical notions and therefore has no place in the public sector school system. There isn't much else too it.
This. It is a public school system, that is, it is ran and funded by the government. A democratic government must be secular; it should not respect one religion more than another. Therefore, teaching creationism in public schools is tantamount to the government officially sanctioning a certain religion as "better" than the rest.
I personally would have no problem with creationism being taught in private schools. Why? Because that's not taxpayer money; if you want to pay money out of your own pocket so your kid can learn that humans just popped out of nowhere, that computers are powered by mana, or that Nicki Minaj's ass is real, that's your choice. But get that shit out of the public school system which should reflect the best of what we know to be tested fact.
If you believe that all kids should be indoctrinated to reflect a religious agenda, you might as well move to Saudi Arabia and follow Sharia law. Because that's exactly what a government that recognizes a "best religion" looks like.
i think you guys that are 100% on the science side are missing the point...
the question is, when does science become biblical?
how many people do you think out there even believe half the shit in the "delusion of science" video i posted. the dogmas and stuff like that?
If i said there is a possibility that the chair you're sitting on, or stars are conscious. in fact there is more evidence to prove that they are vs aren't. how many people do you think would laugh. and then go and state some dogmatic shit they learnt and leave it at that?
is that not biblical to you?
how many times have you guys hear some excuse like
“it hasn’t been observed” or something rather.
only to have it debunked or whatever years or decades later.
WHO do you think are the people that came up with the theories?
WHO do you think are the people that quickly used some scientific dismissal like “it hasn’t been observed”.
you REALLY think the latter person is a scientist? or just following dogma. like any other religion. except in his mind, this "science" he follows has a rule where the dogmatic rules can be slightly shifted and corrected. but he's not one to believe anything until someone else fucking comes up with the theory and proves it. until then, he just dismisses everything and points at some scientific fat book and say "see it's not been tested or observed, there is no proof".
do you guys get my drift?
you guys think newton and einstein were looked down on when they had their theories? before they fucking "proved" it through "observation" and "testing"?
WHY is it that einstein and newton had the fucking INTUITION to KNOW these things before they were observed and tested?
cannot it be said that there ARE human beings that are fucking smarter? that can see things that MOST people cant?
and that MOST people can ONLY operate within a rigid system laid down to them? IS THAT NOT RELIGIOUS AND DOGMATIC?!
the problem isnt the RULES being laid down.
it's that PEOPLE ARE CLOSED MINDED. and so fucking square. they dismiss anything intuitive with the primitive facts they have. regurgitated from someone they were told to obey. raised this way, from a system of beliefs and controls.
sid vicious... you say science is a process... yes. but how many people actually believe that?
how many doctors can you go up to and state some new quantum theory, and they'll just fuckin dismiss it and say "i'll believe it when they prove it"
not just doctors, PEOPLE.
Science is a process...
so is religion... the process just operates very differently. but the end result is similar, fuckin people, believing what they want, and choosing some side, and then following it dogmatically and defending it like it is cosmic law... somehow sewn into the fabric of existence and reality itself.
i can tell you guys now, we KNOW NOTHING. there is tons of evidence and theories that are super paradoxical. you tell me how one thing can be true sometimes and false another time. how they can both exist. oh maybe they CAN both exist...
but if something as fucking weird as that can exist... use your intuition...
then can something as weird as gods and what not exist as well?
what IS existence?
do the things in my mind exist? in what context? yes they do exist. because I exist. and therefore my thoughts exist. is my mind somehow completely fenced off from the rest of the fabric of reality? ...if you have a solid answer for that, i would say you're pulling shit outta your ass.
now you can define what is reality and what is not? you would be dismissing tons of theories and evidence of much smarter people that say differently.
i ain't no religious zealot. but i am a free minded person. It's not that i don't BELIEVE in any particular religion (although i'll admit buddhism is semi appealing in some ways).
it's that I have the foresight to realise that everyone is probably wrong and has no idea what the fuck they're actually talking about.
sure science has sent rockets and robots to space.
but you cannot deny that religion hasn't established something either... before the time or religion... the world was very different. much like before the time of science.
you cannot quickly just DISMISS it and say "it's not needed any more".
lol. when it's not needed... nature will have it's way of removing it. it's clearly still needed in many ways for whatever fucking WEIRD reasons.
but like multi said... existence itself is the weirdest mind blowing fucking experience in itself.
If you can semi agree with this, there is no need to say more.
if you TOTALLY disagree with me, perhaps you should look at why you are disagreeing with me. and maybe you're more concerned about having a stable structure to which you can work within and complete goals and tasks... more than discovering the truth behind reality.
insecurities with structure and organization and achievement... have nothing to do with the nature of reality. it's simply a human function. that's it.
i'm gonna go party later guys.
edit:
think about this...
equal marriage... why do you support this? because it's virtuous? because it's nice? because all humans should be equal and treated with respect?
sure whatever answer is fine.
the question is... where does your answer derive from?
does the universe care? does the fabric of reality give two shits about if we slay gay people or give them equal rights?
i don't know.
but i do know that if the universe doesn't care or is indifferent... then what are we doing? are we not dictating and creating our own theories and religion on what is right or wrong? completely pulling it out of our asses. no different than "religion" and all these other "ancient beliefs"
because how can something be right or wrong if the universe doesnt give a fuck at all? we as humans can somehow dictate what is right and wrong, and become ABOVE reality itself? we as humans dictate to reality what is right and wrong?! LOL!!! WHAT!
OR
the universe DOES give a fuck. and the universe does care. BUT then that means there is a cosmic virtue. that morals and virtue are not just made up by humans. that there IS some "god" or "supreme" being that dictates what is right and wrong. meaning there probably is some form of heaven and hell or something rather. because if they dictate it, it probably means they enforce it somehow. RIGHT?
you guys get my drift?
just a thought process.
Last edited by Ulic Qel-Droma; 05-29-2015 at 09:14 PM.
i think you guys that are 100% on the science side are missing the point...
the question is, when does science become biblical?
how many people do you think out there even believe half the shit in the "delusion of science" video i posted. the dogmas and stuff like that?
If i said there is a possibility that the chair you're sitting on, or stars are conscious. in fact there is more evidence to prove that they are vs aren't. how many people do you think would laugh. and then go and state some dogmatic shit they learnt and leave it at that?
is that not biblical to you?
how many times have you guys hear some excuse like
“it hasn’t been observed” or something rather.
only to have it debunked or whatever years or decades later.
WHO do you think are the people that came up with the theories?
WHO do you think are the people that quickly used some scientific dismissal like “it hasn’t been observed”.
you REALLY think the latter person is a scientist? or just following dogma. like any other religion. except in his mind, this "science" he follows has a rule where the dogmatic rules can be slightly shifted and corrected. but he's not one to believe anything until someone else fucking comes up with the theory and proves it. until then, he just dismisses everything and points at some scientific fat book and say "see it's not been tested or observed, there is no proof".
do you guys get my drift?
you guys think newton and einstein were looked down on when they had their theories? before they fucking "proved" it through "observation" and "testing"?
WHY is it that einstein and newton had the fucking INTUITION to KNOW these things before they were observed and tested?
cannot it be said that there ARE human beings that are fucking smarter? that can see things that MOST people cant?
and that MOST people can ONLY operate within a rigid system laid down to them? IS THAT NOT RELIGIOUS AND DOGMATIC?!
the problem isnt the RULES being laid down.
it's that PEOPLE ARE CLOSED MINDED. and so fucking square. they dismiss anything intuitive with the primitive facts they have. regurgitated from someone they were told to obey. raised this way, from a system of beliefs and controls.
sid vicious... you say science is a process... yes. but how many people actually believe that?
how many doctors can you go up to and state some new quantum theory, and they'll just fuckin dismiss it and say "i'll believe it when they prove it"
not just doctors, PEOPLE.
Science is a process...
so is religion... the process just operates very differently. but the end result is similar, fuckin people, believing what they want, and choosing some side, and then following it dogmatically and defending it like it is cosmic law... somehow sewn into the fabric of existence and reality itself.
i can tell you guys now, we KNOW NOTHING. there is tons of evidence and theories that are super paradoxical. you tell me how one thing can be true sometimes and false another time. how they can both exist. oh maybe they CAN both exist...
but if something as fucking weird as that can exist... use your intuition...
then can something as weird as gods and what not exist as well?
what IS existence?
do the things in my mind exist? in what context? yes they do exist. because I exist. and therefore my thoughts exist. is my mind somehow completely fenced off from the rest of the fabric of reality? ...if you have a solid answer for that, i would say you're pulling shit outta your ass.
now you can define what is reality and what is not? you would be dismissing tons of theories and evidence of much smarter people that say differently.
i ain't no religious zealot. but i am a free minded person. It's not that i don't BELIEVE in any particular religion (although i'll admit buddhism is semi appealing in some ways).
it's that I have the foresight to realise that everyone is probably wrong and has no idea what the fuck they're actually talking about.
sure science has sent rockets and robots to space.
but you cannot deny that religion hasn't established something either... before the time or religion... the world was very different. much like before the time of science.
you cannot quickly just DISMISS it and say "it's not needed any more".
lol. when it's not needed... nature will have it's way of removing it. it's clearly still needed in many ways for whatever fucking WEIRD reasons.
but like multi said... existence itself is the weirdest mind blowing fucking experience in itself.
If you can semi agree with this, there is no need to say more.
if you TOTALLY disagree with me, perhaps you should look at why you are disagreeing with me. and maybe you're more concerned about having a stable structure to which you can work within and complete goals and tasks... more than discovering the truth behind reality.
insecurities with structure and organization and achievement... have nothing to do with the nature of reality. it's simply a human function. that's it.
i'm gonna go party later guys.
edit:
think about this...
equal marriage... why do you support this? because it's virtuous? because it's nice? because all humans should be equal and treated with respect?
sure whatever answer is fine.
the question is... where does your answer derive from?
does the universe care? does the fabric of reality give two shits about if we slay gay people or give them equal rights?
i don't know.
but i do know that if the universe doesn't care or is indifferent... then what are we doing? are we not dictating and creating our own theories and religion on what is right or wrong? completely pulling it out of our asses. no different than "religion" and all these other "ancient beliefs"
because how can something be right or wrong if the universe doesnt give a fuck at all? we as humans can somehow dictate what is right and wrong, and become ABOVE reality itself? we as humans dictate to reality what is right and wrong?! LOL!!! WHAT!
OR
the universe DOES give a fuck. and the universe does care. BUT then that means there is a cosmic virtue. that morals and virtue are not just made up by humans. that there IS some "god" or "supreme" being that dictates what is right and wrong. meaning there probably is some form of heaven and hell or something rather. because if they dictate it, it probably means they enforce it somehow. RIGHT?
you guys get my drift?
just a thought process.
You wrote SO much yet made so very little sense. No, you made NO sense at all!
The idea/concept that I am sitting on a chair is biblical? WTF.
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Perhaps a better way to think about it is that you don't believe in science. You believe in the evidence that supports the science. The beauty is that the evidence for science works whether you believe in it or not.
You want to believe that Adam and Eve had a pet T-rex and the Earth is 5000 years old? Good for you. It doesn't make your belief correct. It makes you look like an idiot for blindly believing that the bible is to be taken literally.
I was raised Roman Catholic, and I realized at some point that the teachings weren't to be taken literally, and the creation stories were the best attempts by people at that time to make sense of how the universe and the world came about. Just as science is trying to now. Even the Pope has come out and said evidence for evolution has pushed it past being just a theory. And that was John Paul, not Francis.
I figured this out before I was twelve. If you're a grown ass adult and you're spouting nonsense like this still? I feel sorry for you.
Perhaps a better way to think about it is that you don't believe in science. You believe in the evidence that supports the science. The beauty is that the evidence for science works whether you believe in it or not.
You want to believe that Adam and Eve had a pet T-rex and the Earth is 5000 years old? Good for you. It doesn't make your belief correct. It makes you look like an idiot for blindly believing that the bible is to be taken literally.
I was raised Roman Catholic, and I realized at some point that the teachings weren't to be taken literally, and the creation stories were the best attempts by people at that time to make sense of how the universe and the world came about. Just as science is trying to now. Even the Pope has come out and said evidence for evolution has pushed it past being just a theory. And that was John Paul, not Francis.
I figured this out before I was twelve. If you're a grown ass adult and you're spouting nonsense like this still? I feel sorry for you.
That to me looks like a 'God' creating a universe theory. You tell me that happened in 5000 of our years, and I'll know what kind of person you are.
Every one has their own opinions, theories, beliefs, whatever. A person who doesn't believe in science will tell the believer that it's BS and that he shouldn't believe it. A person who doesn't believe in religion will say religion is retarded, lies, etc. etc.
You can have your say about being the "sane" one here but don't try to convert/force others to believe or not believe in what they've already have.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_chin
Every one has their own opinions, theories, beliefs, whatever. A person who doesn't believe in science will tell the believer that it's BS and that he shouldn't believe it. A person who doesn't believe in religion will say religion is retarded, lies, etc. etc.
You can have your say about being the "sane" one here but don't try to convert/force others to believe or not believe in what they've already have.
I didnt say anything about forcing my views on others. You're the one who read what wasn't there. You have the right to believe whatever you want. I'm not anti religion, you tell me there's a guiding intelligence running things? That's fine.
I have a problem with the small subset of religious people who believe in the literal interpretation, because it's factually wrong.
Religion and science can coexist. A lot of scientific research back in the day was done by scientists being supported by the church. The evidence for science doesn't rely on you believing in it or not. It will still work the same.
I didnt say anything about forcing my views on others. You're the one who read what wasn't there. You have the right to believe whatever you want. I'm not anti religion, you tell me there's a guiding intelligence running things? That's fine.
I have a problem with the small subset of religious people who believe in the literal interpretation, because it's factually wrong.
Religion and science can coexist. A lot of scientific research back in the day was done by scientists being supported by the church. The evidence for science doesn't rely on you believing in it or not. It will still work the same.
"Force" was probably the wrong term to use, but you are sorta sending a subtle message to convince people to not believe in religion, or the literal interpretation. I would like to know what you mean by literal interpretation? Like Adam and Eve? Satan? God? Angels? Demons?
It's unfair to debate about religion versus science because religion can't be proven with physical evidence, but it doesn't mean it's not true. The problem I have with this topic is that one side will tell the other side they're wrong, and it never ends.
Religion can be explained by science, and science and be explained by religion. If you're talking about proofs, neither side can prove the other wrong.
You're right, just because theres no evidence doesnt mean something is not true. It can very well be true but until there's hard evidence, we have to assume its not true and therefore it cannot be taught in a science class.
If we start teaching something that may or may not be true, then why shouldn't random guy Bruce's wisdom obtained from his invisible friend also be taught in school? Bruce says that his invisible friend told him that drinking cat piss allows you to enter a parallel universe. It's just as valid as anything in the Bible.
Also, the beauty of science is that everything is constantly changing and our understanding of the universe is increasing. If something previously thought to be a hard fact is proved wrong, then great, we'll all go with the updated info. There's nothing to "believe", nothing like "well this is what was said 2000 years ago so it has to be true despite any evidence because the evidence is gods way to testing our faith" billshit.
I have to stress again that anything can be possible but unless there are facts to back up a claim, then we can't treat it as fact, no matter how many billion people believe it to be true.
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