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The VW Group is coming under scrutiny from the EPA for equipping 482,000 diesel cars from 2009 until 2015 with software that would only have the cars meet emissions regulations when they were being tested.
When the cars were not in a test environment, the EPA says that the device was turned off and the cars are producing 40 times the pollution they were during the tests when being used on the roads. The defeat device is not something that was described by VW to the EPA before the cars went on sale, which is another violation. Apparently, the device had two modes, with one mode that would detect when the car was being tested and restrict the emissions, and another that detected road driving and would have the car producing far more emissions than during emissions testing.
The EPA says VW admitted that the device existed when they were threatened with not being allowed to sell 2016 model year diesels in the US.
Here are the cars impacted:
This could result in an $18 billion fine for the automaker. The EPA is ordering all the cars to be recalled.
Been researching VW oil burners for a few weeks before I saw this today. Wow...
If they put custom software on it, it means they know about it and was patching things up to bring it to market.
Similar to how Hyundai was cheating mileage claims, the cost for the fines are probably factored in and they decided that it was cheaper to pay the penalties.
If they put custom software on it, it means they know about it and was patching things up to bring it to market.
Similar to how Hyundai was cheating mileage claims, the cost for the fines are probably factored in and they decided that it was cheaper to pay the penalties.
Nobody's going to jail.
Although I doubt anyone is going to jail, but I think EPA should be more harsh in this case to prevent manufacturers to cheat in the future.
According to US law today, EPA can fine VW around 18 billion USD if they choose to. If I were the head of EPA, I wouldn't want to go easy on this one; slap a fat ticket plus the cost of recalling all vehicles.
The cost of recalling the vehicles is likely well under $100M considering no physical parts need to be replaced.
EPA should lay the banhammer down.
Since the fix would be to run in "emissions compliant" mode the performance hit to these cars would likely result in a class action lawsuit from their owners so the cost of the recall is likely to go into the billions. That or VW has to retrofit a urea injection system onto each car which likely runs into the low thousands per car.
482,000 * $2500 per recall = $1.2B
I hope the EPA lays the hammer on them - GM got a $900M fine for ignition switches and I'd imagine the fine for this will be even higher.
Does anyone else wonder if this will somehow result in a class action lawsuit from the owners who cared about the environment?
Doubt it. What legal stance do they have? Contract was made with dealerships, not vw. Wouldn't they have to prove they suffered some sort of loss through this misrepresentation?
Legal stance is based on misrepresentation of course, that misrepresentation could come about from any form of VW advertisements/literature. (Which would make the company liable, not the dealers)
Damages, here are a few;
- Resale values will be impacted
- Additional repairs costs incurred in states where emissions testing is performed and owners had their cars fail which resulted in them buying new catalytic converters etc.
- Owners paying more money for a diesel thinking it would result in lower environmental impact only to find its worse than the gasoline version they could have bought.
So let's assume they can "update/flash" the problem away.
How does the new emissions friendly calibration impact MPG and power?
They won't just be able to reduce emissions with calibration and not simultaneously impact other factors - if they could, there would have been no reason to be sneaky. So imagine you're an owner and your golf is 20% less fuel efficient after the emissions friendly calibration, you're pissed, and the company is now up shit creek for misrepresentation based on advertised MPG.
Really curious to see how VW works with the EPA to address the issue while also avoiding having to payout a massive lawsuit to owners.
1/5th of market cap wiped out, the potential fine alone is a maximum of 20B, this doesn't include recall or lawsuit costs.
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Agreed. Also, if you owned a TDI, why would you bring your car in for the "fix" knowing that your car would have worse fuel economy and/or power?
Only the biggest tree-hugging greenies are going to do that....
I read that in the US, 1/5 VW sold is TDI. Apparently it's even higher in Canada. This is going to hurt the company image, regardless of the fine they pay.
Agreed. Also, if you owned a TDI, why would you bring your car in for the "fix" knowing that your car would have worse fuel economy and/or power?
Only the biggest tree-hugging greenies are going to do that....
I read that in the US, 1/5 VW sold is TDI. Apparently it's even higher in Canada. This is going to hurt the company image, regardless of the fine they pay.
Yep, I'm never going to have this fix done if it results in a performance reduction. In fact, I might just get an aftermarket ECU tune done and delete the stifling emissions components with a catback (DPF included), and get even more power and surprisingly enough, improved fuel economy. The setup is cheaper than replacing a grenaded DPF while improving reliability.
When i hear a story like that, I can't help but think someone did not get his hand greased as agreed and laid it all out for VW to bit the dust. To bad... reminds me of stories of sports athletes being doped, then x may years later "scandal! the athlete was doped"
Since the fix would be to run in "emissions compliant" mode the performance hit to these cars would likely result in a class action lawsuit from their owners so the cost of the recall is likely to go into the billions. That or VW has to retrofit a urea injection system onto each car which likely runs into the low thousands per car.
482,000 * $2500 per recall = $1.2B
I hope the EPA lays the hammer on them - GM got a $900M fine for ignition switches and I'd imagine the fine for this will be even higher.
GM also tried to avoid the recall based on the fact that paying out the amount of settlements to families of people killed in related accidents would be cheaper than the recall.
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Westopher is correct.
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seems like you got a dick up your ass well..get that checked
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Originally Posted by punkwax
Well.. I’d hate to be the first to say it, but Westopher is correct.
So let's assume they can "update/flash" the problem away.
How does the new emissions friendly calibration impact MPG and power?
They won't just be able to reduce emissions with calibration and not simultaneously impact other factors - if they could, there would have been no reason to be sneaky. So imagine you're an owner and your golf is 20% less fuel efficient after the emissions friendly calibration, you're pissed, and the company is now up shit creek for misrepresentation based on advertised MPG.
Really curious to see how VW works with the EPA to address the issue while also avoiding having to payout a massive lawsuit to owners.
1/5th of market cap wiped out, the potential fine alone is a maximum of 20B, this doesn't include recall or lawsuit costs.
In all likelihood, the advertised fuel economy (also measured by the EPA) was done in "clean emissions" mode.
Since the fix would be to run in "emissions compliant" mode the performance hit to these cars would likely result in a class action lawsuit from their owners so the cost of the recall is likely to go into the billions. That or VW has to retrofit a urea injection system onto each car which likely runs into the low thousands per car.
482,000 * $2500 per recall = $1.2B
I hope the EPA lays the hammer on them - GM got a $900M fine for ignition switches and I'd imagine the fine for this will be even higher.
482K vehicles? Try 11 million worldwide. They just set aside ~$7B USD to fix the problem and for PR. As if things couldn't get worse for VW....
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Sounds like if they tune the engine back down all the cars will run like shit, so who the hell would still want them? It will be interesting to see how much each owner could get from the lawsuit...
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Share price down from $170 to $106 in two days. Not sure how much worse it's going to get for these guys.
Re: 11 million engines. I'm not clear if they're saying that all 11 million have just the software cheat or that they have the cheat as well. It doesn't seem like it was necessary with the cars with the urea system.
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