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Vancouver Off-Topic / Current Events The off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.

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Old 10-18-2016, 07:15 AM   #76
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Unexpected events occur and I want to deal with them right away, we have a no unscheduled overtime policy at work (for my department, anyways), and I don't like leaving things unfinished.


Missed the point, but thanks for being condescending.

When I was in the private sector and non-union, I had the same work ethics. But now that I'm in the public sector and in a union, I'm painted as a scumbag by many in this thread.
The difference is expectations and job security.

You probably don't have to work through lunch and stay late. Your job is not in jeopardy if you don't.

For people in the private sector, if you don't stay late, work Saturday's, and work for "free" in unpaid hours outside of work, you'll probably lose your job.

That's a massive difference
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Old 10-18-2016, 07:39 AM   #77
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I've managed major projects all over Canada and have realized that the negative sentiment associated with unions is well deserved in some geographic regions.

As an example,

The industrial union workforce in Sarnia ON or Montreal QC is exceptional, this is because they stay relatively steady with refinery and pipeline construction, operation and maintenance work.

The industrial union workforce in Toronto ON is absolutely terrible, they are lazy, combative, and poorly trained. They rarely get exposure to industrial work that does not involve the Government (Think nuclear power plants) which I believe has contributed to their rather toxic culture.

In general I am pro-union, these organizations have made tremendous positive change for employees, the industry, and the public. Take the IBEW, they are quite possibly the single greatest contributor to electrical safety in history, not only have they greatly extended the average life span of an electrician, but they have also made the world much safer in the process by driving improvement in the electrical building codes.

On the subject of the work performed by union vs non-union companies, it is my experience that you get better work out of union companies. more often than not a union contractor will have roughly 1/3 the deficiencies of a non-union contractor.

Sounds very anecdotal, I know - consider the following.

Private sector Jman electricians in Alberta will make about 45$/hr, with shitty benefits, some pathetic RRSP matching, and OT capped @ 1.5x rate.

Union Jman electrician in Alberta will make $60/hr (Gross based on pension contributions and vac pay included etc) + they have an exceptional benefit package and OT is variable @ 1.5X after 8 hours and 2x after 10 hours.

Assuming you were an electrician, who would you rather work for? The unions attract the better workers, that's my experience.

Having said that, when you are pulling guys from the hall you often have to be straregic to avoid the lemons. The typical approach is to request 2x the number of tradespeople you think you need, and then spend the first week weeding out the dullards. By week two you are usually left with a great team of tradespeople.

Unions are good, unions with a tight government connection - not so good, too much bureaucracy.
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Old 10-18-2016, 08:42 AM   #78
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Take the IBEW, they are quite possibly the single greatest contributor to electrical safety in history, not only have they greatly extended the average life span of an electrician, but they have also made the world much safer in the process by driving improvement in the electrical building codes.
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Old 10-18-2016, 09:03 AM   #79
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For people in the private sector, if you don't stay late, work Saturday's, and work for "free" in unpaid hours outside of work, you'll probably lose your job.
If only we had some sort of organised assembly of workers that would fight so that this sort of exploitation wouldn't happen....


Hmmmmmmm.......
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Old 10-18-2016, 09:28 AM   #80
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If only we had some sort of organised assembly of workers that would fight so that this sort of exploitation wouldn't happen....


Hmmmmmmm.......
There has to be a fine line.
Look at the auto industry. What good did the unions do for them?

Oh yeah, and the union that was protecting the projectionist people at the movie theaters.

It's all about who has how much leverage. If you are a highly skilled worker, then I wouldn't be afraid of being fired. And even if I was, I could easily find another job.
If you are a dime a dozen factory worker, then yeah you will need that safety net of a union.
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Old 10-18-2016, 09:36 AM   #81
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Exactly, I work 9-10 hours a day usually not taking a break including eating lunch at my desk continuing to work. I'm not going to complain I signed up for it, nobody forces me not to take lunch or even work more then 8 hours a day but if I don't I'll never be able to keep up with my workload.
Different I guess. I usually skip lunch and help out and just leave early. No way I am skipping my lunch and staying. I don't care what management thinks if I don't take lunch I leave early so I can eat. If they want me to take a lunch no matter sure. Just don't complain when work is falling behind coz I am no break.

As someone said earlier if you don't take care of yourself, no one will.
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Old 10-18-2016, 10:00 AM   #82
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Exactly, I work 9-10 hours a day usually not taking a break including eating lunch at my desk continuing to work. I'm not going to complain I signed up for it, nobody forces me not to take lunch or even work more then 8 hours a day but if I don't I'll never be able to keep up with my workload.
you choose to be ok with this. you could always get another job that doesn't require you to self-sacrifice.

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I wish my job as a public-sector, unionized employee were as laid back and easy as everyone in this thread seems to think it is.

Amazing how, as a lazy, incompetent, and entitled public-sector employee, I often find myself working through breaks (without pay, had to cut both my breaks short today!), working overtime (without pay, 30 minutes late leaving today!), working at home (without pay) and I still don't have enough time in the day to get everything I want to get done.
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Old 10-18-2016, 11:05 AM   #83
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It should be a balance, and like was said before it all depends on your employer and work atmosphere.

It's one thing to put in a few extra hours, skip a lunch etc when you're hitting a deadline or whatnot every once in a while.

But if it's happening on a regular basis, that's pretty much exploitation.

I'm a salaried employee, I've had a many late days when it's been crunch time. But at the same time, I usually make that back by taking an extra day off here and there, or leaving a bit early when I need to. It's why I'm OK with it.

But if my job started pushing me to 10+ hour days on a regular basis for months on end you'd better believe I'd push back. I don't know why others would find this acceptable.
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Old 10-18-2016, 11:10 AM   #84
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Unless you own the building I don't expect anyone to work an hour for free. (Granted if you own the building, your not working for free, your working to enhance future profits).

People who say they work through their lunch breaks, or stay late. If you are hourly, you don't bill for these hours?

If you are salary, does your company require Timesheets? If so do you put that you skipped lunch and worked an hour late? If so that extra two hours should get banked into your Vacation days. That's how it has worked with the companies I have been at.

Now if you are management, it's a different ball game, at that point OT is occasionally an expectation. It's been a while since I was an actual employee, but I remember my last vacation as an employee of the company I was working for, I was forced to log on and do some work from my hotel. I did so because I knew there was a problem and they needed me. I did about 5 hours of work one day, and the next I did a couple hours. Both of these two vacation days were returned to me.

As a manager you are paid higher in expectation of these moments. There's a reason you get 20%+ over the other scrubs working there.

Maybe my expectations are different because of my industry, maybe this is something that's not the same in other industries?

I see comments above, like: "I put in my 8 hours and I am gone, I'm not willing to work during my lunch, or work an extra 15 minutes to finish the task I started at the end of the day".

I'm sorry guys, but in an office setting, these are the things that get noticed, don't be surprised if you are passed over for promotions, or don't move up the ladder because of an attitude like that. Equality is great, and better working conditions are fantastic, but there will always be those who are willing to go that extra step, and these are the people you need to either decide you want to compete with for that promotion, or decide "Fuck it I'm good where I am, I could do this for the rest of my life".

And even in union conditions the situation isn't different, seniority might keep you your job in front of someone else, but it won't get you promoted necessarily.
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Old 10-18-2016, 11:22 AM   #85
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And even in union conditions the situation isn't different, seniority might keep you your job in front of someone else, but it won't get you promoted necessarily.
Flip side is, "If you are not replaceable, you are not promotable" does carry some truth.
I was always that guy that put in the 130% effort. Willing to come in early or on my days off for the extra shift and stayed till the end till all the work was done. I remember one shift starting at 2 pm and ending at 5 am because they were THAT screwed for staff.
When a chance came up to move me to a better shift, my boss screwed me over because he didn't want to lose such a valuable employee.
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Old 10-18-2016, 11:27 AM   #86
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Flip side is, "If you are not replaceable, you are not promotable" does carry some truth.
I was always that guy that put in the 130% effort. Willing to come in early or on my days off for the extra shift and stayed till the end till all the work was done. I remember one shift starting at 2 pm and ending at 5 am because they were THAT screwed for staff.
When a chance came up to move me to a better shift, my boss screwed me over because he didn't want to lose such a valuable employee.
I've had that happen before as well. Albeit this wasn't my professional career it was a job I held during school. Regardless I quit the next day. I didn't even make a plea with the boss about moving me up. I quit, and when I was asked why I told them. I guarantee that manager won't make that mistake again.

At certain points you gotta make moves for yourself. I have an immense amount of loyalty for companies that I work with, i've always had the attitude that if the company I work for, or am doing work for, does well. I in turn will reap the rewards. By and large I found this belief to ring true. There are instances where it backfires. But hey that's life, you move on.

Back to your specific scenario, I recognize that quitting can't always be the answer. Recommendation is to either go above the person you were speaking to, or bring the issue up and explain that moving you up or to a better position will only make your work better, or you will only be as good as you are at your new job. Failing those two, threaten to quit and see where that gets you (note: this might end badly).
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Old 10-18-2016, 11:28 AM   #87
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you choose to be ok with this. you could always get another job that doesn't require you to self-sacrifice.
Yeah I thought that was evident when I said I knew what I was getting into and I signed up for it, informative post though. lol
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Old 10-18-2016, 11:43 AM   #88
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Failing those two, threaten to quit and see where that gets you (note: this might end badly).
It was a job and I was young and naive plus financial constraints meant at the time I didn't think I had the option to walk away as I was student with bills to pay.
In the end, they did it a second time when upper management said they wanted to take away my full time benefits even though I was only part time and working 40+ hours a week.
I made a big stink and my boss learned quickly that it is not in their best interest to piss off one of their top workers.

Which brings back to what I said about leverage. Some people over estimate their leverage and some underestimate it. Unions or not, it's about leverage.
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Old 10-18-2016, 11:51 AM   #89
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Ah, the public sector union bashing brigade has come out in full force in this thread.

You know what the problem is in public sector organizations? Too many managers and too many roadblocks that slow down decisions. There are lots of grunts who want to make a difference and want to make things happen. However, they need to have 10 people in the system check over their work. Then, there are policies and legislation that need to be followed.

You guys want transparency? Well, you end up with top heavy organizations who are too afraid of making decisions. It's not the person who makes 50K a year carrying a union card thats the problem. It's the 5 people ahead of that person making 100k who need to sign off on a purchase order that's the problem.

Only people who have worked in the inside really know what's up. Most of you huffing and puffing about the bloat know little about the culture and the risk aversion in the public sector.
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I see comments above, like: "I put in my 8 hours and I am gone, I'm not willing to work during my lunch, or work an extra 15 minutes to finish the task I started at the end of the day".

I'm sorry guys, but in an office setting, these are the things that get noticed, don't be surprised if you are passed over for promotions, or don't move up the ladder because of an attitude like that. Equality is great, and better working conditions are fantastic, but there will always be those who are willing to go that extra step, and these are the people you need to either decide you want to compete with for that promotion, or decide "Fuck it I'm good where I am, I could do this for the rest of my life".
I don't work in an environment where there's promotions so it's a little different

I've learned loyalty doesn't mean jack shit in my field, esp with new grads willing to work a lot less. Twice I've been with two separate teams and was let go roughly a year in (hourly, not annual contracts). Neither could cite a good reason for letting me go instead said things like "you'll understand one day" (what am I, your child?) or "we didn't see you in the big picture"(ok, so you didn't see that 3 months in?) In retrospect, I'm not too bothered by it because I know my services are high quality and I've developed a network so I get back on my feet pretty fast. Those employers probably didn't deserve my dedication to begin with so I take it was meant to be and move on to a better team who appreciates my work.

tl;dr unionized employees, be grateful
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Old 10-18-2016, 12:00 PM   #91
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For people in the private sector, if you don't stay late, work Saturday's, and work for "free" in unpaid hours outside of work, you'll probably lose your job.
You are in the wrong job if you have to do those unwillingly. Ask yourself if that is sustainable. If it is not, I would advise anyone to do a stealth job search immediately.

Too many assholes with this kind of expectation for the private sector. You need to respect yourself first before your employer can respect you. If you don't respect your own time then why should they. Once in a while going the extra mile to get a project over the finish line because of circumstances (someone went down sick, a vendor screw up) is OK. Doing it every single day for fear of losing your job is not OK. Your knowledge, experience is your job security, not working for free.

This is why I am pro union, these workers need to be protected especially in jobs that has higher risk of injuries and requires low education level. In the private sector, you are your own union. HR are a bunch of glorified receptionist/event planner that cannot and will not protect you (who pay sign their paycheque?).
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Unions are the worst thing ever!...until you're in one lol
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You are in the wrong job if you have to do those unwillingly. Ask yourself if that is sustainable. If it is not, I would advise anyone to do a stealth job search immediately.

Too many assholes with this kind of expectation for the private sector. You need to respect yourself first before your employer can respect you. If you don't respect your own time then why should they. Once in a while going the extra mile to get a project over the finish line because of circumstances (someone went down sick, a vendor screw up) is OK. Doing it every single day for fear of losing your job is not OK. Your knowledge, experience is your job security, not working for free.

This is why I am pro union, these workers need to be protected especially in jobs that has higher risk of injuries and requires low education level. In the private sector, you are your own union. HR are a bunch of glorified receptionist/event planner that cannot and will not protect you (who pay sign their paycheque?).
I'd say for the most part, it's the standard across the board for management in construction. Salaried employees come with the asumption of overtime and weekends. However, in the long run I guarantee the salaried manager makes less than they should.

I've been in both situations, salaried vs wage, and it always felt like the salary way I was getting pennies on the dollar even though I'd make slightly more on the year.

Which is kind of why I'm looking to switch industries. Some good opinions in this thread regarding taking care of yourself etc. things like that have always been in the back of my mind, but it's almost reassuring to hear others tout it.
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Which is kind of why I'm looking to switch industries. Some good opinions in this thread regarding taking care of yourself etc. things like that have always been in the back of my mind, but it's almost reassuring to hear others tout it.
I'm having the same debate too with my current work/life balance but one of the biggest hurdles I have is the unknown. The current work market isn't that great and while i make good coin at my current job, my lack of education may haunt me or any jobs that I find with my work experience may not pay as well.
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On the subject of knowing your worth and being able/willing to push back on your employer...

I recently accepted a new position (as a contractor), shortly after starting there was some dispute regarding my compensation. Keep in mind this is at a time when my industry is suffering and I am brand new to the company - but highly recommended by a number of people and enough time has passed that I have already established myself as a significant contributor.

My email


Response from my supervisor


#JUSTICE

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No, he's the madam....... male version, of course.
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