NDP wants ICBC to be audited for financial mess

[Timpo]

NDP wants Auditor General to review ICBC finances
ROB SHAW
Published on: November 28, 2016 | Last Updated: November 28, 2016 4:09 PM PST


Insurance Corp. of B.C. (ICBC) offices MARK VAN MANEN / PNG


http://vancouversun.com/news/local-n...-icbc-finances

VICTORIA — B.C.’s Auditor General should probe the worsening financial problems at the Insurance Corp. of B.C., says the Opposition NDP.

NDP critic Adrian Dix wrote to Auditor General Carol Bellringer on Monday, urging her to examine the government’s financial withdrawals from ICBC and the implications to ratepayers.

ICBC released last week a hypothetical scenario that could see rates rise as much as 42 per cent by 2020, if the corporation can’t reduce claims and injury costs. That scenario, which the government described as “worst case” was built using revenue and investment assumptions dictated by the B.C. Utilities Commission, which ICBC said wasn’t an accurate or fair way to forecast its finances.

“More disconcerting than that, ICBC’s 42% forecast depends on $1.5 billion falling from the sky,” Dix wrote in his letter to Bellringer.

“Over the past few years, the Liberal government has scooped $2.6 billion from ICBC’s optional capital intended to pay for claims on the optional side of the business — $1.2 billion to government coffers and $1.4 billion to basic insurance capital.


“This is the likely source of this $1.5 billion but this is not stated anywhere. Or is the taxpayer going to be asked to directly subsidize basic insurance?”

Dix said Bellringer is needed to examine ICBC because the province’s independent regulator, the BCUC, has no authority to review the optional side of the corporation’s business. ICBC maintains a monopoly on providing basic insurance, but competes with private companies to sell optional.

Transportation Minister Todd Stone said last week ICBC is under significant financial pressure and the government will unveil several reforms in coming weeks designed to cut costs.

Stone also announced that ICBC will no longer insure luxury vehicles worth more than $150,000, because they are six times more expensive to repair than ordinary vehicles. But that change will only save ICBC an estimated $2.3 million on more almost $4 billion annually in claims, and has so far been marred by confusion and a lack of details.

[MrPhreak]

Funny coming from those idiots... the NDP were the ones that started the raping of ICBC back when they were in power. They started pulling out around 300M a year and essentially started the rate hikes.

FYI: NDP did the same things with BC Hydro

[godwin]

Politicians who wants auditing always forgets to tell the tax payer how much it cost to run audits..

Unless you find major areas that needs fixing, it is an expensive make work project.

[Jmac]

Originally Posted by godwin

Politicians who wants auditing always forgets to tell the tax payer how much it cost to run audits..

Unless you find major areas that needs fixing, it is an expensive make work project.

How do you know there are major areas that need fixing without an audit?

[godwin]

Like any large corporation I am pretty sure they run internal audits regularly.. NDP wants a public one and I haven't seen one that is not a sh*t show. It is a publicity stunt.

I highly doubt any Joe Public can come up with any useful suggestions that ICBC employees haven't tried already..

Originally Posted by Jmac

How do you know there are major areas that need fixing without an audit?

[Timpo]

Originally Posted by godwin

Like any large corporation I am pretty sure they run internal audits regularly.. NDP wants a public one and I haven't seen one that is not a sh*t show.

According to the 2015 ICBC Financial Statement, on page 5, it says ICBC was audited by CPA company called Pircewaterhouse Coopers LLP
PWC website: PwC Canada , English
ICBC Financial Report http://www.icbc.com/about-icbc/compa...-info-2015.pdf

I don't know if this would mean anything though?

[jackmeister]

Originally Posted by godwin

Like any large corporation I am pretty sure they run internal audits regularly.. NDP wants a public one and I haven't seen one that is not a sh*t show. It is a publicity stunt.

I highly doubt any Joe Public can come up with any useful suggestions that ICBC employees haven't tried already..

NDP does not have a concept of costs. What did you expect?

[StylinRed]

Originally Posted by MrPhreak

Funny coming from those idiots... the NDP were the ones that started the raping of ICBC back when they were in power. They started pulling out around 300M a year and essentially started the rate hikes.

FYI: NDP did the same things with BC Hydro

Crooks

All provincial govt have been raiding the coffers of provincial crown corps, everytime we get a rate hike with a lame excuse there was the provincial govt digging their paws into the coffers right before

Crown coprs also invest in the market and when the market drops there's another rate hike to cover the losses

[MG1]

Isn't this about money being scooped up by the government rather than how efficient or not the insurance corporation is?

Any money made by the corporation should go back into the system.

I dunno..............

[MrPhreak]

Originally Posted by godwin

Like any large corporation I am pretty sure they run internal audits regularly.. NDP wants a public one and I haven't seen one that is not a sh*t show. It is a publicity stunt.

I highly doubt any Joe Public can come up with any useful suggestions that ICBC employees haven't tried already..

Should be a law that the provincial government cannot take money out of crown corporations like ICBC and BC Hydro to try and balance their books. Any surplus money made should be rebated to the citizens who own it, and rates should be reduced going forward.

[godwin]

That's the thing, an audit won't tell you that. It just tells you what various income go into ICBC and expeditures ICBC are.

It won't tell you money ICBC has left over should go to where. That's what legislation suppose to do.

An audit in this case is as effective as saying flying cars will solve land congestion problems. Doesn't take Sherlock to figure it out.

Originally Posted by MrPhreak

Should be a law that the provincial government cannot take money out of crown corporations like ICBC and BC Hydro to try and balance their books. Any surplus money made should be rebated to the citizens who own it, and rates should be reduced going forward.

[Timpo]

Originally Posted by MrPhreak

Should be a law that the provincial government cannot take money out of crown corporations like ICBC and BC Hydro to try and balance their books. Any surplus money made should be rebated to the citizens who own it, and rates should be reduced going forward.

Can't Christy Clark tell whoever in the BC government not to take money out of ICBC and BC Hydro? She's a premier so..

[Timpo]

Premier Christy Clark avoiding questions on long-term ICBC rates
Clark standing firm on 4.9 per cent rate increase for ICBC in 2016
By Richard Zussman, CBC News Posted: Nov 22, 2016 2:52 PM PT Last Updated: Nov 22, 2016 5:54 PM PT

Premier Christy Clark avoiding questions on long-term ICBC rates - British Columbia - CBC News


ICBC is concerned long term rate projections would be taken out of context. (David Horemans/CBC)

As debate heats up, B.C. Premier Christy Clark is avoiding the discussion on whether the public insurer should be required to disclose future projected rate increases.

When asked on Tuesday, Clark did not directly answer the question of whether ICBC should have to release the projections, only saying she wants to ensure rates don't go too high in the immediate future.

"I think ICBC should keep the rates at a 4.9 per cent increase, which is what the government is committed to doing. People cannot afford these massive rate increases," said Clark. "I am fighting for the ratepayers, people who drive cars, the moms and dads who already find life unaffordable."


Premier Christy Clark wants to make sure ICBC does not increase rates more than 4.9 per cent this year. (Glen Kugelstadt/CBC)

Increase of 4.9 per cent already submitted

The provincial government has approved a 4.9 per cent increase in 2016 that would add $3.50 a month to the average auto insurance bill or $42 a year.

The B.C. Utilities Commission, the organization that regulates ICBC, has called on the insurer to provide some clarity to what sort of increases are expected each year until 2020. ICBC has refused to this point to release the projections because of concerns they would be taken out of context.

ICBC has already submitted an application that would see rates go up 4.9 per cent.

NDP says Clark is being disingenuous

NDP critic Adrian Dix says Clark is being disingenuous in her statement about making sure rates do not become unaffordable.


Adrian Dix, speaking to reporters outside of budget estimates, on May 2, 2016. (Richard Zussman/CBC News)

Dix has calculated that ICBC insurance rates have gone up about 30 per cent over the last five years.

Documents provided by Dix also show the provincial government has moved nearly $1.2 billion from ICBC revenues into provincial coffers. It is unclear where that money was used, but the province has committed to not taking revenues out of ICBC's account this fiscal year.

"It is time the public sees Christy Clark's pure incompetence at ICBC. The gall for to come out and say she is protecting taxpayers when her government scooped out $1.2 billion that was suppose to be used to pay for claims," said Dix.

ICBC argued the 4.9 per cent increase is necessary in order to cover an increase in claims and incidents of insurance fraud.

The BCUC still needs to approve the rate increase before it is finalized.

[MrPhreak]

Originally Posted by Timpo

Can't Christy Clark tell whoever in the BC government not to take money out of ICBC and BC Hydro? She's a premier so..

The problem is the NDP left BC with billions of dollars of debt at the end of the 90's... so they either had to hike taxes on British Colombians significantly, or continue with the NDP con of taking money out of crown corporations to balance the books. It was actually a lot worse than most people even knew. The NDP had shoved massive amounts of debt into brand new crown corporations to pay for infrastructure projects so they wouldn't have to put it on the books and it wouldn't show up for the budget.

Doesn't matter what government gets in, raping BC Hydro and ICBC isn't going to stop... it can't, simply for the fact that it would be political suicide.

The main problem is that when you try to use tough love to pay down debt (slashing social funding, reducing government size, getting tough on spending, and applying honest and straight forward taxation)... people get upset. Look at what happened with the HST: it would have streamlined taxation in BC, significantly reduced costs by combining federal and provincial tax offices, and most businesses were actually for it. People freaked out and it had to be changed back at a huge cost to the province.

I don't see the spending spree ending anytime soon... in fact, I expect to see sky high ICBC rates continue, and ridiculous BC Hydro rates. The only way this will change is if enough awareness is brought to it, and one of the parties makes a promise to stop taking money from it in hopes it gets them elected in.

[Timpo]

Originally Posted by MrPhreak

The problem is the NDP left BC with billions of dollars of debt at the end of the 90's... so they either had to hike taxes on British Colombians significantly, or continue with the NDP con of taking money out of crown corporations to balance the books. It was actually a lot worse than most people even knew. The NDP had shoved massive amounts of debt into brand new crown corporations to pay for infrastructure projects so they wouldn't have to put it on the books and it wouldn't show up for the budget.

Doesn't matter what government gets in, raping BC Hydro and ICBC isn't going to stop... it can't, simply for the fact that it would be political suicide.

The main problem is that when you try to use tough love to pay down debt (slashing social funding, reducing government size, getting tough on spending, and applying honest and straight forward taxation)... people get upset. Look at what happened with the HST: it would have streamlined taxation in BC, significantly reduced costs by combining federal and provincial tax offices, and most businesses were actually for it. People freaked out and it had to be changed back at a huge cost to the province.

I don't see the spending spree ending anytime soon... in fact, I expect to see sky high ICBC rates continue, and ridiculous BC Hydro rates. The only way this will change is if enough awareness is brought to it, and one of the parties makes a promise to stop taking money from it in hopes it gets them elected in.

well they always tell us the reason why ICBC rate is so high is because of exaggerated injury claims.
we're paying approx. $100/year more than we should because them.

I wonder how much ICBC money is being used to pay off BC debt

[MrPhreak]

Originally Posted by Timpo

well they always tell us the reason why ICBC rate is so high is because of exaggerated injury claims.
we're paying approx. $100/year more than we should because them.

I wonder how much ICBC money is being used to pay off BC debt

It works out to ~410 million dollars each year from BC Hydro in the form of dividends, and ~160 million a year from ICBC as excess capital. BC slips farther into debt every year... so not much goes against the debt, mostly just to maintaining current government spending.

Really ICBC should be cutting rebate cheques (like they used to back in the day), and operating like a not-for-profit business. BC Hydro should be re-investing some of their surplus money into infrastructure projects and working to reduce hydro rates.

Bottom line, is the government needs to be forced to get their sticky fingers out of crown corporations that are put in a monopoly positions like this. The NDP may have started this trend, but this is really a non-partisan issue.

[Soundy]

Originally Posted by godwin

Politicians who wants auditing always forgets to tell the tax payer how much it cost to run audits..

Unless you find major areas that needs fixing, it is an expensive make work project.

Of course. And then if the audit finds nothing, they can snip about the Liberals wasting taxpayer funds on an audit that wasn't needed. Win-win!

[Timpo]

Once-profitable ICBC suffers from mismanagement
Published:
December 27, 2016
Updated:
December 27, 2016 2:05 PM PST

Once-profitable ICBC suffers from mismanagement | The Province


ICBC needs to get its own house in order, says letter writer. Jason Payne / PROVINCE

Re: New review ordered for ICBC rates, Dec. 20

Calling for fundamental changes to our insurance lets the Liberals and ICBC pass the buck for their own mismanagement. Let’s not forget that ICBC was not only solvent, but immensely profitable only a few years ago, before our government pilfered its coffers and a new management regime called for aggressive litigation tactics resulting in escalated costs.

The powers-that-be should get their house in order rather than suggest a WCB-style approach that hangs injured people out to dry. Compensation “caps” and “no-fault” policies do not decrease rates — just ask Alberta and Ontario.

Meanwhile, the coming years will see a dramatic decline in accidents due to the increasing prevalence of anti-collision technology on the roads. Most new cars come equipped with auto-braking sensors that make rear-end collisions a thing of the past. As these new cars replace the old ones on the road, injury claims will no doubt dwindle.

But for the injury claims that will remain, let’s not strip ourselves of the ability to seek fair compensation. That would play right into ICBC’s hands, while rewarding their bad behaviour and that of reckless drivers.


Nicholas Parker, Vancouver

[tiger_handheld]

looks like ICBC does a shit job of managing their investments or timing the investment purchases at least. I'm sure they got managers who are in charge but maybe they need to balance a good opportunity with available cash better?

they also lose a bunch of money on non-insurance business? to the tune of 123 mil per year. Unless this is some essential service, maybe get out?

claims are also high than premiums paid - so maybe they need to figure out how to manage those payouts better? price discriminate like a crazy mofo, because one size fits all doesn't seem to work.

[Tapioca]

There's no easy solution.

Look at your local community newspaper sometime: personal injury law firms are making a killing on taking a Crown corporation to task. It's far too easy to blame ICBC themselves. Low balling settlements is in the public's interest.

On the other hand, if you privitize insurance, we will end up with a situation similar to Ontario - young and male drivers get discriminated. There's no guarantee that you'll get better value for your money when something happens to your car or you in an accident either under a private system. At least ICBC provides a respectable level of service for all clients.

[6o4__boi]

lol what was up with the "new, upgraded" information system that ICBC recently did?

i've had more than a few insurance agents say it sucks and was actually a downgrade over the previous one.

[meme405]

Originally Posted by 6o4__boi

lol what was up with the "new, upgraded" information system that ICBC recently did?

i've had more than a few insurance agents say it sucks and was actually a downgrade over the previous one.

I'm not in insurance, so I haven't used either system.

BUT when companies I have worked for moved from windows XP to windows 7, or office 2007 to office 365 (both great upgrades), many non-computer types would complain about the changes because they are too inept to learn anything new.

Not saying that I would be surprised if ICBC rolled out some half assed software package.

But maybe take what you are hearing with a grain of salt, or perhaps pay closer attention to the source you are getting it from. Maybe the problem isn't the software and it's the idiot user who refuses to get used to doing things differently.

[6o4__boi]

Originally Posted by meme405

BUT when companies I have worked for moved from windows XP to windows 7, or office 2007 to office 365 (both great upgrades), many non-computer types would complain about the changes because they are too inept to learn anything new.

reminds me of a time when i did IT support at some place that upgraded from ME to XP

bunch of older employees kept logging tickets saying they couldn't figure out the new OS because colors were different and things were moved around


RE: the icbc upgrade, seems their complaint was something about not being able to bring up certain info like they used to make the process faster.

[vantrip]

I think the only reasonable step left for the province and ICBC is allow private companies to start selling basic 3rd party coverage, This way ICBC won't have to shell out the first 200k everytime anyone has a accident.

I know this may not be popular with some but ultimately we need a free market system for insurance and this way people without at fault claims get the best deal and not have to pay for people causing accident.

Also they should significantly increase price of anyone with more that 1 at-faults claim to discourage them from driving or force them to take mandatory driving lessons. This seems harsh but at the end of the day driving is not a right, much good can come if more people leave cars at home and take alternative transportation.

[Nlkko]

Private insurance.... best deals. Soundbites. Never worked that way. Private companies' only mandate is to make profit. One way or another they will be profitable.