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Vancouver Automotive Chat Where it all began..
GVRD, Vancouver, North Van, Burnaby, Richmond, PoCo, Coquitlam, Maple Ridge, Pitt Meadows, Surrey, Langley, Delta, White Rock.. |
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09-24-2009, 01:52 PM
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#1
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Need my Daily Fix of RS
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FWD performance = non existent?
So i have a Mazda3, second one so far, went from 2.0L 4sp Auto to 2.3L 5sp Manual, done some bolt ons to it, mostly exterior and suspension, cant say its quick or anything, but it sure drives nice, being a FWD it still doesnt feel bad..
i know you guys think FWD = fail
but lets get over that.
Today i was talking to a friend of mine, and he basically said FWD = performance only happen on Honda cars (integra, Civics was his example)
my question is..
What makes Honda FWDs better than other FWDs?
What makes them better than some other FWDs in the market?
cars in question are for example:
Mazda3s, Lancers, Eclipses, Sentras, GTIs, etc..
talking about power/weight ratio.. hp/torque ratio.. etc..
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09-24-2009, 02:02 PM
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#2
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14 dolla balla aint got nothing on me!
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Your friend is a noob. While Honda does have several examples of fine FWD engineering, a lot of other manufacturers do as well. Take for example, the Mazdaspeed 3. Powerful, handles great, practical and..... driven by the front wheels. GTI is another good one.
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07 TW Civic Si - Injen CAI, DCRH, Megan Racing catback, TWM SS, Cobb AccessPORT
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09-24-2009, 02:07 PM
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#3
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your friend must be an ignorant honda fanboi
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09-24-2009, 02:08 PM
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#4
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I'm already sick of it MOD
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Your friend gets assfucked by his vtec engine, thats why he said it
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09-24-2009, 02:12 PM
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#5
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lol see? i dont agree with him, as i drive a mazda3, spend quite some money on it, and i have to listen to him blah blah all day about how Hondas are the only FWD cars that should be done up, love the speed3.. but wish sedan version was availiable..
also i realize hondas arent that good on the hp/torque ratio.. does that mean they are slower accelerating from a dead stop?
cause i seem to recall my other friends talking about how one of them's CSX type S couldnt get in front of the other guy's Mazda3 off the line..
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09-24-2009, 02:15 PM
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#6
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I *heart* Revscene.net very Muchie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evolutionian
lol
also i realize hondas arent that good on the hp/torque ratio.. does that mean they are slower accelerating from a dead stop?
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no, just means that it takes that much more money to make it go faster...lol
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I HATE ricers / hardparkers.
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09-24-2009, 02:18 PM
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#7
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I'm already sick of it MOD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evolutionian
lol see? i dont agree with him, as i drive a mazda3, spend quite some money on it, and i have to listen to him blah blah all day about how Hondas are the only FWD cars that should be done up, love the speed3.. but wish sedan version was availiable..
also i realize hondas arent that good on the hp/torque ratio.. does that mean they are slower accelerating from a dead stop?
cause i seem to recall my other friends talking about how one of them's CSX type S couldnt get in front of the other guy's Mazda3 off the line..
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If my memory serves me right the speed3 has 4 doors?
But yeah hondas lack torque for sure.
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09-24-2009, 02:19 PM
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#8
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Willing to sell body for a few minutes on RS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToyotaPowah
Your friend is a noob. While Honda does have several examples of fine FWD engineering, a lot of other manufacturers do as well. Take for example, the Mazdaspeed 3. Powerful, handles great, practical and..... driven by the front wheels. GTI is another good one.
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werd
i thought Mazda 3 handles the best in it class
the suspensoin is pretty firm yet the ride isnt harsh at all
by the way, all 4 banger lacks of torque.
U dont hear ppl bitching holly fuck my V6/V8/V12 has no torque god damn!
Last edited by Mugen EvOlutioN; 09-24-2009 at 02:31 PM.
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09-24-2009, 02:22 PM
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#9
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I <3 Koffee Mod
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FWD (for all intensive purposes) for the mass consumer market has changed significantly over the past decade, it puts RWD to shame. There are many more FWD cars out there that can give Hondas a run for their money.
I know I'm comparing apples to oranges but why pay $40K for a 15 year old MKIV Supra that's falling apart and leaking oil like no tomorrow, when you can pay $30,000'ish for a 3 year old Acura TL Type-S which has 200+ HP, is newer, much more comfortable and still covered under warranty?
Most people don't even drive their cars anywhere beyond 10% of its potential anyway.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RRxtar
when i very rarely walk into a 'coffee shop' to grab a coffee and see all the trendy art fags lounging around, it makes me glad i got a real job. (and i dont mean students studying either)
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09-24-2009, 02:22 PM
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#10
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I'm already sick of it MOD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugen EvOlutioN
by the way, all 4 bangers lack of torque.
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False. Clearly you've never driven a mazdaspeed3 
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09-24-2009, 02:25 PM
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#11
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back then honda had full f&r double wishbone suspension + light solid unibody chassis
not as much competition from other car manufacturers
then honda cheaped out
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09-24-2009, 02:27 PM
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#12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugen EvOlutioN
by the way, all 4 bangers lack of torque.
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09-24-2009, 02:30 PM
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#13
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Willing to sell body for a few minutes on RS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChinesePetro
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what?
which 4 banger doesnt lack torque
the fuck
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09-24-2009, 02:32 PM
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#14
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Willing to sell body for a few minutes on RS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Hines
False. Clearly you've never driven a mazdaspeed3 |
yes yes i know, i love mazdaspeed 3 dont get me wrong, its one of my top 3 favorite car around that price tag
anything with turbo/SC will get hp/torque
thats a no brainer
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09-24-2009, 02:33 PM
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#15
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14 dolla balla aint got nothing on me!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugen EvOlutioN
what?
which 4 banger doesnt lack torque
the fuck |
4 banger lacks torque...
Thats funny... 
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09-24-2009, 02:34 PM
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#16
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OMGWTFBBQ is a common word I say everyday
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Hines
False. Clearly you've never driven a mazdaspeed3 |
Well, I bet his argument would be that the Speed3 is turbocharged, but I know one engine that would shut him up.
the 3L Straight-4 in a 944 =D
Anyways OP: Your friend is just biased as fuck. Forget him.
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09-24-2009, 02:37 PM
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#17
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Willing to sell body for a few minutes on RS
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what u wonna tell me 4 bangers make huge amount of torque?
seriously, dont give me the turbo, supercharge, nitrous bullshit. Any car with turbo, SC, nitrous can make power. A civic can make 500whp with turbo, so can EVo, STi. Supra can make 1000whp with turbo. Any car can make xxx amout of hp and torque when going FI
in general 4 cylinder cannot make torque because its smaller displacement
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09-24-2009, 02:40 PM
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#18
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OMGWTFBBQ is a common word I say everyday
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugen EvOlutioN
what u wonna tell me 4 bangers make huge amount of torque?
seriously, dont give me the turbo, supercharge, nitrous bullshit. Any car with turbo, SC, nitrous can make power. A civic can make 500whp with turbo, so can EVo, STi. Supra can make 1000whp with turbo. Any car can make xxx amout of hp and torque when going FI
in general 4 cylinder cannot make torque because its smaller displacement
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Nobody said a 4-cylinder had to be small. You're saying N/A 4-cylinders lack torque. That is not true.
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09-24-2009, 02:44 PM
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#19
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Willing to sell body for a few minutes on RS
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IN GENERAL!!!!!!!
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09-24-2009, 02:46 PM
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#20
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Willing to sell body for a few minutes on RS
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IN GENERAL
most 4 cylinder range from 1.6L to 2.5L their torque and hp number is around 110hp/110 torque to 160hp/160 torque which is fine
V6 3.0-3.5L
ranges 250hp-330hp torque number is around 260 pounds of torque
V8 torqu number is around 300 + , HP wise around 300hp to 400hp
so what im saying is because its a smaller engine , in GENERAL it is very hard or near impossible to get them to make more hp/torque without going boost. BUt as i mentioned, anything boost can go fast, that we can agree on right?
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09-24-2009, 02:51 PM
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#21
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OMGWTFBBQ is a common word I say everyday
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugen EvOlutioN
IN GENERAL
most 4 cylinder range from 1.6L to 2.5L their torque and hp number is around 110hp/110 torque to 160hp/160 torque which is fine
V6 3.0-3.5L
ranges 250hp-330hp torque number is around 260 pounds of torque
V8 torqu number is around 300 + , HP wise around 300hp to 400hp
so what im saying is because its a smaller engine , in GENERAL it is very hard or near impossible to get them to make more hp/torque without going boost. BUt as i mentioned, anything boost can go fast, that we can agree on right?
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Now you're just trying to correct yourself. But you lost already.
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09-24-2009, 02:55 PM
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#22
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Willing to sell body for a few minutes on RS
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ok watever u say
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09-24-2009, 03:07 PM
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#23
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Need my Daily Fix of RS
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^^^ LOL
well.. i dont have a speed.. i have a regular NA Mazda3 Sedan version not the "hatchback" version.. and i dont really like the look of the 5D.. but yes.. i do feel that the suspension are firm.. with the coilover its stiff as hell 
as for my biased assfucked by vtec friend.. not so much friend but friend.. lol
he drives a base model lancer.. with intake in it.. and constanly guns it.. i dont bother with him but he always wants to race me 
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09-24-2009, 03:16 PM
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#24
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Where's my RS Christmas Lobster?!
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Honda's just have so much more aftermarket support. Even the cheapest car in their lineup, the Fit, has a ton of parts available.
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09-24-2009, 03:21 PM
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#25
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RS controls my life!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcrdukes
FWD (for all intensive purposes) for the mass consumer market has changed significantly over the past decade, it puts RWD to shame. There are many more FWD cars out there that can give Hondas a run for their money.
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This.
Older honduhs were decent FWD platforms because they were light and had good front suspension.
Quote:
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Most people don't even drive their cars anywhere beyond 10% of its potential anyway.
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Aaaaannnd this. Most people would never really understand why RWD is superior for "fun" driving.
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09-24-2009, 03:55 PM
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#26
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Lomac owned my ass at least once
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugen EvOlutioN
werd
i thought Mazda 3 handles the best in it class
the suspensoin is pretty firm yet the ride isnt harsh at all
by the way, all 4 banger lacks of torque.
U dont hear ppl bitching holly fuck my V6/V8/V12 has no torque god damn!
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it should be all N/A 4 bangers lack torque
and my 3.0L v6 is gutless with no horsepower or torque
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09-24-2009, 04:31 PM
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#27
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OMGWTFBBQ is a common word I say everyday
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blinky
Most people would never really understand why RWD is superior for "fun" driving.
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Thats true. Most people who buys Merc and BMWs are old men who likes the title of "owning a european car". They are not going to go 0-60 as fast as possible in their M5 because they have kids.
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09-24-2009, 04:40 PM
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#28
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Need my Daily Fix of RS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shenmecar
Thats true. Most people who buys Merc and BMWs are old men who likes the title of "owning a european car". They are not going to go 0-60 as fast as possible in their M5 because they have kids.
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Don't forget the parent-powered honger/mainland boys and girls that cruise around No. 3 Rd...
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09-24-2009, 05:26 PM
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#29
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Rs has made me the woman i am today!
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LOL why are we even disputing it? larger displacement = more potential to yield power,
But anyways, I believe an FWD performance car is very valid, won't be a lemans track car but for a daily driver with a good amount of performance FWD isn't impossible
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09-24-2009, 05:32 PM
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#30
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OMGWTFBBQ is a common word I say everyday
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectre_Cdn
Don't forget the parent-powered honger/mainland boys and girls that cruise around No. 3 Rd...
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em too.
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09-24-2009, 06:22 PM
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#31
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I <3 Koffee Mod
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blinky
This.
Older honduhs were decent FWD platforms because they were light and had good front suspension.
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Old Honda's were awesome. Double-wishbone suspension, light chassis, and a reliable 4-cylinder gas miser with so much potential, how can you lose? Sure, they may be a SOHC 1.6L 4-cylinder motor pushing 110hp, but who the hell cares when you're saving all that money from the get go? I'm sure there are people out there who rake in a 6-digit salary and are laughing all the way to the bank!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blinky
Aaaaannnd this. Most people would never really understand why RWD is superior for "fun" driving.
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We can thank Initial-D.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RRxtar
when i very rarely walk into a 'coffee shop' to grab a coffee and see all the trendy art fags lounging around, it makes me glad i got a real job. (and i dont mean students studying either)
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09-24-2009, 06:32 PM
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#32
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WOAH! i think Vtec just kicked in!
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Here in my opinion are some good FWD (quick, nippy, or fun to drive)
Honda Civic SI
Acura RSX Type-S
Mazdaspeed 3
Acura TL Type-S (latest gen and previous gen)
Cobalt SS
As for your question as to what supposedly makes a Honda FWD "better". If you're talking about cars like the FD2, I think Honda's suspension and chassis design works well as a FWD platform.
Go drive a Civic SI, or a RSX Type-S, they're really neutral, no torque steer.
I can't speak for other FWD cars, but as far as I know, the FD2 is the fastest track stock FWD you can buy? Or perhaps the Mugen RR.?
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09-24-2009, 06:36 PM
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#33
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RS has made me the bitter person i am today!
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^
he pretty much said it. Light chassis and double wishbone suspension. Some swaps are pretty much bolt on and yet you get good gas mileage out of it.
But being a Honda owner I feel ashamed of what your friend has said.
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09-24-2009, 06:40 PM
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#34
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Rs has made me the man i am today!
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In General:
Most FWD fundamentally are limited due to the weight and layout of the engine.. There are several tricks like Ford's Revo Knuckle that partially solve the problems eg torque steer. not to mention Honda's SH differential. However it adds to R&D and manufacturing cost.. since FWD is relegated to economy cars.. it is just not worth it.
The bottom line is it is harder to have a good handling FWD.. it is even harder to modify / add power to a stock FWD car without causing a lot of other problems.
In the end RWD is easier, hence require less investment etc.
I would say Revo Knucle is probably the best FWD setup right now (for high HP ~300HP and general driving). and guess what? Ford licenses it from ZF.
Last edited by godwin; 09-24-2009 at 07:16 PM.
Reason: Added RevoKnuckle
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09-24-2009, 06:43 PM
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#35
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Rs has made me the man i am today!
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Actually it is the suspension geometry that affects the handling more.. double wishbone or not is more of a packaging issue.
And yes the suspension geometry is also limited by the packaging of the engine and the drivetrain.
Fundamentally FWD is designed for manufacturing efficiency and low cost.. much like CVT. If you want real good performance that is on par with RWD, in the end you have to spend more to get the same results.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikaro
^
he pretty much said it. Light chassis and double wishbone suspension. Some swaps are pretty much bolt on and yet you get good gas mileage out of it.
But being a Honda owner I feel ashamed of what your friend has said.
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Last edited by godwin; 09-24-2009 at 07:02 PM.
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09-24-2009, 06:45 PM
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#36
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WOAH! i think Vtec just kicked in!
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^
Yup. For example. the RSX uses front McPhersons.
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09-24-2009, 07:04 PM
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#37
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I bringith the lowerballerith
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evolutionian
What makes Honda FWDs better than other FWDs?
What makes them better than some other FWDs in the market?
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VTEC! 
__________________
Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce-Leroy
Holy fuck what's with all the ballers today? Jesus Christ I feel like I'm on welfare.
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AK Autoworks
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09-24-2009, 07:05 PM
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#38
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RS controls my life!
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You can do decent things with McHappy struts, but if one is designing a performance car from the ground up, one generally wouldn't start with a strut setup.
FWD is never going to be able to put down power like RWD or have the handling balance quite like RWD either.
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09-24-2009, 07:07 PM
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#39
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The "You'd Know" Moderator
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How do you feel having 2 back wheels doing nothing at all other than rolling?
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Ezekiel 25:17. The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you.
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09-24-2009, 07:24 PM
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#40
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RS.net, where our google ads make absolutely no sense!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugen EvOlutioN
werd
i thought Mazda 3 handles the best in it class
the suspensoin is pretty firm yet the ride isnt harsh at all
by the way, all 4 banger lacks of torque.
U dont hear ppl bitching holly fuck my V6/V8/V12 has no torque god damn!
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LOL
4 bangers lack torque? My 2.5 sentra puts about 180 torque at around 2500 rpm...The SRT-4 Caliber pushes around 285....
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