FWD performance = non existent?

[SumAznGuy]

Originally Posted by Zulu

If he's buying a $4k GSR odds are he can't afford the $7k to make it go fast in the first place.

Good point.
Who remembers a few years ago when Sport Compact had their first Ultimate Street Car challenge?
The winner was a bone stock Ferarri on Hoosier tires. How does this relate to this topic, well the stock Z06 on Hoosiers tires is going to be fast at the drag strip, autoX, and track.
Because it is stock, it is fine as a DD and will have little to no mechanical issues.
Take that turbo'd GSR and keep a spare tranny and drive shafts in case those break at the track. Save some money for a motor rebuild incase you detonate the motor.
And you will be cursing your head off when you are stuck in stop and go traffic with the race clutch.

[Lomac]

Originally Posted by shenmecar

That turbo Civic VS murcielago doesnt prove anything other than its a quick dragster.

It doesnt mean the Civic is BETTER than the murcielago. It just proves its FASTER in a straight line.

Murcielago would still win all around.

Lets take the same cars to a race track and do a lap. I think the lambo would win.

Take the same cars to, say Robson and cruise, I think the lambo would turn more heads.

Take the same cars to a nice scenic place for a photoshoot. I think the lambo would make more little boys jizz in their pants.

Props to the Civic's owner for building a car HE likes. But it still aint better than a Lambo imo.

Originally Posted by jdmhaze

Is this really happening? A Honda is being put beside a Lamborghini for comparison? Please refrain from stating the complete obvious.

The argument was that a FWD econobox could never match the ability of a more powerful, focus-driven RWD performance car. There was never any intention of comparing the sex appeal and desirability of a Lamborghini to a Civic. You guys are trying to read far too much into something that was never there to begin with.

[Coach Hines]

I cant believe i'm going to say this, but I really want a Focus RS after watching that video

[asahai69]

Originally Posted by 91civicZC

I always think talk like this is funny.

Its kind of like those "Even if you win driving a Honda, your still retarded" pictures. Who is more retarded, the guy who drives the eco box, or the guy who just raced and lost to an eco box?

Im a car guy. I like cars. Doesn’t matter what it is, Ill give anyone respect if they like a car enough to put some effort and money into it. Doesn’t matter if its a Cavalier or Lambo, if you like it and its done tastefully, good on you. I personally like Hondas, a lot. Some guys dont, that’s okay.

But to say "who cars if its faster than a Lambo, its still a civic" is pretty goofy. The lambo took his car to a drag strip, and got knocked. That’s a funny race, the bottom basement civic Vs a very high end car. The bargain eco box wins.

Anyone would half a brain would take the Lambo over the civic, but give the guy some props for building what looks to be a pretty clean quick FWD car. Saying "who cares, its still a civic" just makes you sound butt hurt.

are there any times in the video. for all we know the guy in the lambo was taking it easy. seeing isnt believing when it comes to the internet buddy. lol for fuck sakes. look at the first video. did you notice how awesome the first two cars were. then u see the civic doing the gayest burnout ever. lol. u wanna give "props" to that? a civic will always be a civic. honestly. if a mustang were the one killing the lambo you would definatley say the same thing. "oh fuck it, lambo is stock, mustang modded. its just a RUSTang"

you wanna see what really is a good comparison? take a stock fox body mustang. about 10g. buy a civic worth the same price. both each add 20g in mods to it. do you seriously think the civic will be faster? give me a break.

[91civicZC]

If it was a mustang beating the Lambo, good on him. Do I see it as the same accomplishment? Not really, as bank for buck, it’s pretty hard to beat a well modded mustang. Still though, Your assumption I would jump up and say "fucking mustang" is again, pretty weak on your part and also incorrect. I would actually probably laugh and just think about how pissed the Lambo owner would be as he watched the mustang pass him. If you read my post, you would see, Ill respect anything done tastefully if someone loves it enough to put the effort in. I have no issues with mustangs. Apparently you have a pretty big problem with Civics that maybe you should look into. Again, your just coming off butt hurt. I'm wondering why?

Your argument then meanders into something that is not even remotely related to what we are talking about. But Ill play along.

Your right, put both those cars together with the same amount in them, and the Mustang would probably EAT the Civic. So when a guy builds a Civic that can tear one down, why can’t you give him props? Because he didn’t sign the same check as you? Or is it because in your eyes “It’ll always be a Civic”? Great argument. How does this relate to FWD Performance again?

Built not bought still means something to some people, myself included. A car that’s built well with tasteful parts will always get more respect from me that someone who can sign a big check. Would I take the Civic over the Lambo? Of course not. Does the guy who owns the Lambo care what I think? Obviously not. Was that what we were talking about? Nope. We were talking about FWD performance. Does it exist? The video above illustrates it does along with countless Grassroots racing Chamionships and wins in all sorts of diffrent racing classes from Pro to your local Solo 2. Nuff said.

[Great68]

Originally Posted by 91civicZC

I would actually probably laugh and just think about how pissed the Lambo owner would be as he watched the mustang pass him.

Why would/should the lambo owner be pissed?

[Coach Hines]

Originally Posted by Great68

Why would/should the lambo owner be pissed?

I'm guessing cause the mustang costs 1/3 of what the lambo does and the lambo was passed..

[asahai69]

lol. im sure if the guy could afford a lambo, and was serious about drag racing. he would build himself a drag car.

[asahai69]

Originally Posted by 91civicZC

If it was a mustang beating the Lambo, good on him. Do I see it as the same accomplishment? Not really, as bank for buck, it’s pretty hard to beat a well modded mustang. Still though, Your assumption I would jump up and say "fucking mustang" is again, pretty weak on your part and also incorrect. I would actually probably laugh and just think about how pissed the Lambo owner would be as he watched the mustang pass him. If you read my post, you would see, Ill respect anything done tastefully if someone loves it enough to put the effort in. I have no issues with mustangs. Apparently you have a pretty big problem with Civics that maybe you should look into. Again, your just coming off butt hurt. I'm wondering why?

Your argument then meanders into something that is not even remotely related to what we are talking about. But Ill play along.

Your right, put both those cars together with the same amount in them, and the Mustang would probably EAT the Civic. So when a guy builds a Civic that can tear one down, why can’t you give him props? Because he didn’t sign the same check as you? Or is it because in your eyes “It’ll always be a Civic”? Great argument. How does this relate to FWD Performance again?

Built not bought still means something to some people, myself included. A car that’s built well with tasteful parts will always get more respect from me that someone who can sign a big check. Would I take the Civic over the Lambo? Of course not. Does the guy who owns the Lambo care what I think? Obviously not. Was that what we were talking about? Nope. We were talking about FWD performance. Does it exist? The video above illustrates it does along with countless Grassroots racing Chamionships and wins in all sorts of diffrent racing classes from Pro to your local Solo 2. Nuff said.

see. you got in here a little bit late. i was talking about the zulu/chwkef little arguement.

but if you want to talk about FWD performance. can you get performance out of a FWD car? Yes. would sumthing RWD or AWD destroy it? Yes. is a civic a good car? Yes. but not for anything other than going from point A to point B

[unit]

Originally Posted by AzNightmare

Looks better than the current gen STI too.

good performer but looks like a complete ricemobile in a box.
colors like lime green belong on exotic supercars.

[Great68]

Originally Posted by Coach Hines

I'm guessing cause the mustang costs 1/3 of what the lambo does

That's the key.

If I was in the lambo I wouldn't be pissed, I'd be the one that can afford a car that costs 3 times as much.

[91civicZC]

Originally Posted by Great68

That's the key.

If I was in the lambo I wouldn't be pissed, I'd be the one that can afford a car that costs 3 times as much.

Most of the guys who I have met who own Lambos dont see it that way. Hopefully exceptions to the rule, as I would rather see a Lambo go to a car enthusiast rather than just some dude whos got money and dosent know what else to do with it.

[CivicTypeRice]

Originally Posted by asahai69

are there any times in the video. for all we know the guy in the lambo was taking it easy. seeing isnt believing when it comes to the internet buddy. lol for fuck sakes. look at the first video. did you notice how awesome the first two cars were. then u see the civic doing the gayest burnout ever. lol. u wanna give "props" to that? a civic will always be a civic. honestly. if a mustang were the one killing the lambo you would definatley say the same thing. "oh fuck it, lambo is stock, mustang modded. its just a RUSTang"

you wanna see what really is a good comparison? take a stock fox body mustang. about 10g. buy a civic worth the same price. both each add 20g in mods to it. do you seriously think the civic will be faster? give me a break.

[MajinHurricane]

^i'll take an italian supermodel over integragirl ty.

[Great68]

Originally Posted by 91civicZC

Most of the guys who I have met who own Lambos dont see it that way. Hopefully exceptions to the rule, as I would rather see a Lambo go to a car enthusiast rather than just some dude whos got money and dosent know what else to do with it.

These lambo owners you have met seem to be pretty ignorant then and if they are get butthurt just because they get beat by a modified "cheaper" car, then they bought their lambo for the wrong reasons.

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

Originally Posted by Great68

That's the key.

If I was in the lambo I wouldn't be pissed, I'd be the one that can afford a car that costs 3 times as much.

i think the key is that when u spend $400g on a car


u would normally think you are the king of the hill

fastest and most amazing piece of art a man can buy in every single category

VEYRON boooyaaa

[91civicZC]

Originally Posted by Great68

These lambo owners you have met seem to be pretty ignorant then and if they are get butthurt just because they get beat by a modified "cheaper" car, then they bought their lambo for the wrong reasons.

Yup, they were all pretty much douche bags. I have only met three that I can remember. Not one was a car guy, just people with too much money.

Yes, it made me jealous.

[SumAznGuy]

Originally Posted by Mugen EvOlutioN

i think the key is that when u spend $400g on a car


u would normally think you are the king of the hill

fastest and most amazing piece of art a man can buy in every single category

VEYRON boooyaaa

Sounds like the same stereotype of guy in F&F.

More than you can afford, Ferarri!!!!!

As for me, I am a total car guy. If I could afford to race a Lambo, I would totally do it up, like what asahai69 said.

[hk20000]

^ that's if you can afford to do up a lambo.

Lambo parts are super expensive a modded up lambo easily costs twice the MSRP of the original lambo.

[MajinHurricane]

fuck this site is hilarious.

post up the hyundai and people would cry that it's in s-class territory but post up a modded civic and people would rather have the civic over a lambo?

[RabidRat]

Originally Posted by Blinky

You can do decent things with McHappy struts, but if one is designing a performance car from the ground up, one generally wouldn't start with a strut setup.

FWD is never going to be able to put down power like RWD or have the handling balance quite like RWD either.

You know the 911 Turbo has MacPherson struts up front? =)

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

^


didnt know that

[Blinky]

Originally Posted by RabidRat

You know the 911 Turbo has MacPherson struts up front? =)

And the 911 is borked. Struts in front, engine waaay in the back.

Porsche from the ground up for an all-out car: take a look at the CGT. Double a-arm suspension and a mid engine.

[Coach Hines]

Originally Posted by Blinky

And the 911 is borked. Struts in front, engine waaay in the back.

Porsche from the ground up for an all-out car: take a look at the CGT. Double a-arm suspension and a mid engine.

Carrera GT <3

[RabidRat]

Originally Posted by Blinky

And the 911 is borked. Struts in front, engine waaay in the back.

Porsche from the ground up for an all-out car: take a look at the CGT. Double a-arm suspension and a mid engine.

The 911 GT2 is still no slouch though, and it has that same MacPherson strut front, multilink rear. Same exact suspension setup btw, as a Mazda3.

You know the Mk4 Supra has dbl wishbone suspension front and rear? The thing is a pig; I think we can all agree a 911 GT2 would far outhandle it.

Idk. It's not that I disagree with you - Mac struts have crappy dynamic camber right? They gain positive camber as suspension compresses, while dbl wishbone/A-arm gains negative on compression? I always thought MacPherson struts were reserved for 1)saving space, 2)cutting cost, 3)durability (for say, rally cars). It's just bizarre that you find these things on such high end cars.

[Blinky]

I've never driven a SouPraaaaaaaa or GT2, so I won't guess. There's more that goes into a car's handling than just what type of suspension it uses.

Modern McStruts don't gain positive camber -- that would truly suck -- rather they don't gain very much negative camber when compressed. That aside, many German companies have really refined McStruts (look at BMW). I think it's just a well-engineered artifact on the 911, like the ass-engine. If it ain't broke...

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

mazda 3 uses MacPherson strut as well?


i thought honda was on crack putting that shit on MacPherson strut, when all the others are double wisbone (sp)

[orgasm_donor]

All I know is that my '03 Civic couple handles like an overweight pig in heat because of its asstastic suspension. Its a little bit lowered too but that doesn't make any difference. Gay Civic.

[RabidRat]

Originally Posted by Blinky

...if one is designing a performance car from the ground up, one generally wouldn't start with a strut setup...

There's more that goes into a car's handling than just what type of suspension it uses.

I think in the original context you were saying that newer civics with the new strut type suspension up front don't handle well because of their Mac struts. Is it necessarily true then?

I did some more digging and found out that the M3 and Z4 have Mac struts in front too. The M3 somewhat makes sense because it's built off a common 3 series, but the Z4 doesn't really have much of an excuse seeing as how it's built from the ground up with its own platform. Maybe it's just gotten to that point where Mac struts just aren't the limitation they used to be.

[SumAznGuy]

That's not true. Mac struts will always have limitations when comparing them the double wishbone type suspensions. But one of the issues with an independant suspension is the around of room you have to package everything.

And not all double wishbones are created equally. You need to take into consideration suspension geometry and a bunch of other things that are beyond me. Take a quick peek at some of the info on suspension on the VCMC forums and you will see what I mean.

Cost is another factor when car manufacturers design their cars.

[Blinky]

Originally Posted by RabidRat

I think in the original context you were saying that newer civics with the new strut type suspension up front don't handle well because of their Mac struts. Is it necessarily true then?

All else being equal, a double A-arm suspension will be better than a strut-type suspension. Both old and new civics are front drive, front engine; the newer civic is heavier too which doesn't help. Without driving them back-to-back I would confidently guess that the older civic will be a bit nicer, because they're fairly comparable cars.

Conversely the SoooooooUUUUPRA and Peenmobile are quite different in layout, and I'm guessing weight. A "good" implementation of a more fundamentally limited design will be better than a "crappy" implementation of a fundamentally "better" design.

(compare a modern small-displacement inline 4 with an early 80s V8)

Maybe it's just gotten to that point where Mac struts just aren't the limitation they used to be.

99.9% of the time McStrut vs double a-arm doesn't matter. It certainly doesn't matter in day-to-day driving, and it's obviously possible to have tons of fun with McStruts. For that 0.1% of the time though (such as any high level of motorsport), the difference in performance makes the additional cost etc worth it.

[SumAznGuy]

Originally Posted by Blinky

All else being equal, a double A-arm suspension will be better than a strut-type suspension. Both old and new civics are front drive, front engine; the newer civic is heavier too which doesn't help. Without driving them back-to-back I would confidently guess that the older civic will be a bit nicer, because they're fairly comparable cars.

The 8th gen Civics run a Mac strut front with a Double wishbone rear. From a handling point of view, with mod for mod, the older Civic is definately a lot more fun to drive.
Just ask James and Roger in their STS Civic.

As for the Supra vs GT2, that isn't a fair comparison since the 2 cars do not belong in the same class. The Supra is more of a tourer while the GT2 is an all out sports car. Stock for stock, the GT2 has stiffer springs than the Supra. Different tires. The supra is longer with an inline 6 and a full trunk while the GT2 has the engine over the rear wheels.

Why not compare a C2 vs a GT3. Stock for stock, the C2 is deffinately not in the same league as the GT3.

But once you allow mods to band-aid specific short comings, things can get interesting really quickly.

I can't remember the specific year, and I don't feel like goggling it right now. But Al Unser Jr. won the Indy 500 and the following year both him and his team mate couldn't qualify for the same race. The reason was because the car had issues with the handling and the previous year, the problem was masked by the higher powered motor. The following year, CART limited hp production and so they found themselves not being able to compete with the other teams.