were you two sitting on ur computer clicking refresh over and over, just waiting for the other person to reply? seriously

Yeah, Israelis may do some bad things some times, but Hamas aren't angels either. It's a two-way street.

yet the US of A has the worst track record when it comes to war crimes.

call it a "war on terror" and you get away with anything.

we can thank the media brainwash for that.

rofl yes :blushsmile:


but now its time for bed :/

the palestinians don't give a fuck about humanity anyways. How do you fight a people who don't respect life, or personal freedoms anyways? How about if you're 5 million vs a billion next door?

That's one smart-lookin' dog!

Sids post works more than once

Are you basing these statements on how all your Palestinian friends behave? Or on ur trips to the Middle East to observe these freedom-haters? Or are you just being an ignorant fool?

Ding ding ding, it's option number 3. Please WakeMeUp when you have something intelligent to add.

He's right you know. The disproportioinate force is not the result of mercy from the side of Palestinians. I'm sure if the Palestinians had the same militaristic resources Israel has, they would've been employed by them.

He also does have a point that the argument is moot. Each and every argument of who was committed crimes to whom, and who threw the first rock, can equally go back and forth.

This is exactly what's wrong with someone like you providing information. You take an article and a video, you comprehend beyond what you see, which is good, except that your title is misleading which you acknowledge, and yet because you find two sources that omit this information, you feel as if you do nothing wrong in sensationlizing the story.

I listen to people who provide unbiased information, and you just admited to being biased. Just because two sources say one thing, it should't give you the right to ignore the facts when the source of all the articles on the internet come from the Judges report which explains that both sides committed these war crimes.

Next time, read the 535 page dissertation, and then provide the facts.

Well the whole tirade started because he wanted to make it seem like the Palestinians were the agressors by pointing out that they broke the truce, which wasn't true.

Your back-&-forth about who did what would only make sense if we were talking about the whole middle-eastern mess as a whole and even then you can go back far enough with documented crimes to see who started it all (but thats for another thread)

Also he's ignoring the point of the thread which are all the war crimes, even if he wishes to discredit "disproportionate force" (he didn't lead his remarks in this way he just discredited the whole thing and blamed the Palestinians) he can't ignore the crimes against humanity and the opression of Israelis who were against the acts of their own nation.

You can't discredit disproportionate force with "well if they had those capabilities they would do the same" that's an impossible statement to prove or discredit, you can just remark on what's actually happened.





edit: RSlater i have no issue with you having issue with my thread title, it was used to draw more attention to the thread. (my so called disclaimer was an attempt to keep the flaming about the thread title down)

I don't really want to get into this because the other guy is doing a really good job.

But, there's no occupying force in Gaza. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Following that Hamas, a terrorist organization, was elected to represent the people. Following THAT, thousand's of rockets were shot into Israel from Gaza by Hamas. Israel decided to blockade Gaza, but only to deter it from sending rockets over. Which it continued to do. Once Israelis had enough, operation cast lead began. During which Hamas fighters hid in civilian homes, Had snipers positoned on top of mosques (Those are holy places for god sake), and used human shields.

Another question to ponder over. Egypt has basically blockaded Gaza as well, why doesn't Hamas shoot rockets over there daily.

The other guy sucked thats why he ran away ;)

but what you're doing now is ignoring everything israel has done and just mentioning what hamas has done... so of course with that viewpoint you'd be correct

i won't "argue" with anyone who refuses to see the wrongs of both sides and admit what sparked it all (even if you want to go back decades)

but i will answer your last question/remark? Hamas doesn't rocket Egypt because Egypt hasn't uprooted their homes, Egypt doesn't attack and kill their children, Egypt doesn't build a wall around them and cut power off whenever they wish, Egypt doesn't etc etc etc etc

ah ha... zing...

Step back and look at it as if you know nothing about the situation. Both lay claim to the land, both had a history there. One group was placed there after WWII by a separate party. Both want the land but aside from religious motives, it's just a tiny piece of desert part of a big desert. One group values education, free markets as a means to prosperity and individual freedoms. The other has been an economic mess, allows religion to dictate basic human rights, and doesn't value education. One is part of the developed world, while the other seems to want to destroy the developed world (i'm speaking about other Muslim dominated countries)

It seems that the majority of the Arab world despises Israel. Hence a "billion" comment. Heck, Iran's leader has said he'd like to wipe them off the map. Whether he's serious or not, who knows, but why mess around. Israel is just fighting for it's survival like anyone would.

If you don't agree that's fine... just my view.

^^^ as posted before you're a fucking idiot.

oh boy.

Funny, i was thinking the same about you. I'll let you get back to your discussion with the other dude now.

I think we should turn that entire area into a glasspot...then we won't have to hear this bullshit on CNN/BBC all the fucking time.

everything is not 'game' during war. but people play by the same rules. If you fight a war without restraint, then you deserve none in return. so, if you're fighting a superior force and decide to use suicide bombers and purposely kill civilians, which is fairly high on the 'without restraint' clause. you really don't have a foot to stand on when, said superior force, bombs you to shit with fighter planes and attack helicopters. no military force would ever purposely target civilians because 1) munitions aren't cheap 2) civilians are worthless to the battle and there is nothing to gain by killing them

likewise, hiding behind civilians to attack, and not expect retaliation, is stupid.
likewise, civilians voting into power people who take them hostage, is stupid.
likewise, you, my child, are stupid.

this sentence, makes absolutely no sense.

I don't call you a child out of a whim,
I call you a child because your arguments are immature, irrational, and without careful consideration. You are fixated on 'he started it' and cannot comprehend the situation as a matter of fact.

One more time
the UN is counterproductive.
Israel has superior military might
Palestinians will not get what they want until they remove themselves from the radicalized elements of their culture.
Israel, by all accounts have committed war crimes, likewise Palestinians.
your fixation on one group over the other makes it very clear you are BIAS. You aren't here to learn anything, you're here because you like the sound of your own voice that plays when you read your replies. you are intoxicated by your own arrogance.

this is why you are a child.

Sorry DNA but you keep altering your argument ever so slightly that its hopeless to continue

lets say i ignore everything you've already said and just work with what you typed now... as i think thats how you would prefer it since it just gets pathetic if we look back

suicide fighters weren't used during the ceasefire (so that makes no sense to mention), even though israel targeted the family of Hamas leaders during said time (in one instance killing a 14year old girl)

"no military foce would purposefly kill civilians" you must not have been following the Gazan "war" and post-war news? as even Israeli soldiers admitted that everyone was a target "there were no such things as civilians", even the UN found they targeted the civilians.

Hiding behind civilians... thats exactly what Israeli soldiers did.... except they used Palestinian civilians and used them as shields, so reported by palestinians and Israeli Forces

You refuse to see what's going on and will only assume the only ones deserving harm are the Palestinians... you're no different then Wakemeup

You called me a child because of my mentioning Hamas are not terrorists, however you're blind to the fact that i was using you're belief system (although you've changed your mind again in this current message) to describe them so.

Of course im fixated on "he started it" because no1 should stand aside when someone is bullshitting that's how messes begin, that's how you make the masses follow a incorrect belief system, that's why many idiots actually believe the Palestinians 'deserve it' because people stand aside and let people like you bullshit.

Even though you've been proven wrong you just ignore it and continue on like it never happened and just rinse and repeat each reply however has a slight variation from the previous but continues with incorrect spewing of bs.

you call me Bias (i agree i am, i'm of the belief that you can only be on the side of what's right and against those who perpetuate and cause 'evil' against civilians) but you are the same except for the wrong side.


I can understand why m!chael is for the acts of Israel, as he's jewish and must not care about anything except supporting Israel (its like how the mainlanders are for anything China does)
I might be part Jewish too but i can't stand to see injustice, I'm wondering if you dna82 are of the same cloth as M!chael? as that would explain a lot and allow me to cease in my replies.

(even so i still can't see how someone can turn a blind eye to the targetting of civilians, use of weapons that will melt away peoples flesh, grabbing civilians of the people you're attacking and using them as shields, demolishing peoples homes, bombing the United Nations, blocking the Red Cross and independent doctors and american representatives from entering the aftermath)



edit: also throughout all this everyone continues to ignore the findings of Israeli Govt. Oppression of its own citizens who were/are against the acts that the govt. was/is inflicting on the Palestinians.

you tell people to leave an area, it's gonna get bombed. some people decide to stay in area. they get bombed. wow real fuckin smart.

you tell people, get out of the neighborhood, we're coming in to clean house, everybody that is still in the area will be considered enemy combatants. people stay in the area, people get shot. real fuckin smart. when was the last time you heard of a suicide bomber warning civilians to flee before detonating?

it also doesn't help that Hamas uses their own civilians for cover, purposely mingling in with civilians hoping to draw more civilians deaths, to in turn, blame it on israelis for civilian deaths.

wow, what imaginary belief system are you quoting me on? Hamas is a terrorist organization labeled so by Canada, USA, European Union and pretty much the entirety of the free world. that is hardly *my* belief system.

woo hoo, pulling out the race card. should I even bother with it?
well, just to let you know, so that any perceived racial bias is removed, i am not jewish and i am not white.

so how far back in history do you wanna go? 2thousand? 3thousand years? or maybe just up until the point where you feel comfortable that you can have an edge in this debate? forget about the 'he started it first' bullshit, it's childish and rubbish. work with what you got now.

the solution is so obvious, you just can't see it.
Palestinians need to stop glorifying death and violence. Stop radicalizing their children. And for gods sake stop trying to pick a fight with a 400pound gorilla.

from there, the international community would probably rebuild a Palestinian state. they just need to accept the fact, Israel is not going anywhere.

where was i proven wrong? i will try and clarify it. as for parts I ignore, I don't know which parts specifically, but I can't answer all of your questions without turning this into a wall of text. either that, or your point was so ridiculously stupid, i choose to ignore it out of convenience. that or i think your trolling. which i still think your trolling, but i have extra time on my hands.

Lol this is soo ridiculous..... do you realize the size of Gaza? do you realize how many people are within its borders? do you realize its one of the most densely packed areas in the world? do you realize the civilians have nowhere to go??

ONLY after international condemnation has Israel given a 3hr-window before bombing after the so called warning... These bombings in which a 3hr window was given happened AFTER the Truce from the Gazan offensive.

Even still where the hell are they going to go??

Again you ignore the fact that Individual soldiers within the Israeli army have said that they were told "there are no such things as civilians"


I agree that doesn't help but Hamas can't exactly be anywhere else (im not condoning their actions but we have to understand it)


The belief system that you show through you're replies... do we really need to go into circles with previous posts? this just shows you ignore everything (especially when you get stumped) and just continue on in the following posts as if nothing happened.

I see you still didn't understand my comment about Hamas are not terrorists (if you go back you'll see thats not what i believe if you read the reply)

Im just trying to understand why you're so thick headed, is it due to you're religious beliefs (not race btw) or idiocy or something else.


We can go back to exactly when this all started, the decade prior up until the creation of the state of israel (1930s-1948)

Going back 2-3thousand years makes no sense whatsoever.... I have a feeling you don't know the history of the area with that remark of going back thousands of years.


That makes sense... i agree, but even recenty history has proven (though you refuse to see it) is when the Palestinians back down the IDF pokes and prods and even attacks.

So again you refuse to see all the facts before you, just the ones which you find appeases your argument.

Which by the way your argument is moving to the entire problem as a whole instead of what this thread is about... the war crimes against civilians and persecution of israelis by israelis.



edit: just to make it clear im done with this banter, i'll give you the last word, i can see this is a lost cause

okay i'm cutting you off kiddy, again. I know i'm a glutton for punishment.

but it's became painfully obvious you came into this conversation with a set mentality and just like to hear the sound of your own voice.
but as a parting gift I will answer your last set of questions.

1) calling an 'area' not the entire strip that will be bombed. as in. a specific neighborhood will receive calls before an air strike will be carried out. hey, it doesn't guarantee that no civilian causalities will result, but it shows restraint. which is more then I can say for the Palestinians. it's quite easy to 'leave' the area likewise it's probably easy for you to walk out of your house, and AWAY from your neighborhood. but hey, if you happen to walk into another neighborhood getting bombed at the same time, then you are shit out of luck and god hates you. still, restraint is shown. what kind of logic is this? warning an enemy of an imminent attack . ye, try getting the Palestinians to think about showing that much restraint.


2) no, you pulled the racial card and assumed that if I was of Jewish descent, my views would be considered 'typical'. this again, shows how you process information. immature and childish. whether or not I am a Jew does not make what I have to say any more or less relevant.

3) see, your fixation on 'who threw the first stone' is failed logic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...Land_of_Israel so can i say that because the Jews were there first they get to keep the land? tit for tat.

4) no really, your attempting to justify Hamas as a legitimate army is hilarious. how many more degree's of fail is that? what 'belief system' are you referring to? you are probably using the wrong word to describe something.

5) I agree that doesn't help but Hamas can't exactly be anywhere else (im not condoning their actions but we have to understand it) understand it? what the fuck? If you are a wanted criminal don't fucking invite the neighbors over for tea and crumpets. The militants KNOW they are wanted men and that Israel has and will use missiles to kill you, yet knowing this, they continue to mingle around civilians baiting the Israelis to attack. this isn't an issue or hurp de derp 'I have no where to go so I'm just gonna act like nothings wrong and go to that community BBQ next week' they should be in HIDING preventing their own civilian causalities. but they won't because civilian deaths make Israel look bad and the bleeding hearts love to cry tears for civilians and opens their wallets for donations. you act as if Israeli missiles hit EVERYTHING, EVERYWHERE and there is nowhere to go.

6) I gave you an opportunity to bring any unanswered questions to me, but again, you merely dismiss my request, and then say I'm evading your questions. what 'FACTS' have you brought up that I have not disputed? you do realize, that just because you state your opinion does not make it a FACT.

Note to Israel: Defend yourself by any means necessary!

fuck zionism.