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Old 06-04-2010, 12:14 PM   #101
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it's the middle east

they're OG like that.
oooo now i understand lol
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Old 06-04-2010, 07:08 PM   #102
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Notice In the first video the soldiers were using paint ball guns, not live ammunition. Live ammunition was used only after the 'peace' activists fired on the soldiers.
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Old 06-04-2010, 07:09 PM   #103
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Oh and the first video was shot by one of the passengers of the ship.
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Old 06-04-2010, 07:16 PM   #104
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Fuck Palestine
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Old 06-04-2010, 07:30 PM   #105
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we've all seen those videos m!chael

the flotilla passengers defending their ship isn't an issue of contention anymore and quite frankly there's nothing wrong with it
but your "live fire" video is complete horse shit and there was no evidence found that there was any firearms on the ship as far as i am aware...
And Israel has edited all videos its released as reported by the majority of news groups (why don't they release video of the actual killing of the passengers?)

the whole issue still remains Israel attacked a foreign ship (known to be carrying aid) in international waters and subsequently murdered 9 people... this is a clear act of piracy no matter how you look at it.

You can't claim self-defense when you are the attackers.




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Fuck Palestine
hmm... interesting. not only are you anti Iranian, your anti Palestinian
yet you claim to be a persian who strives for freedom in your native country...

can't really put much weight in anything you say now when your willing to "fuck" palestinians who want the same thing as you and fight for it as your people in Iran do; not to mention the palestinians are in a far bleaker situation

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Old 06-04-2010, 07:56 PM   #106
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Old 06-04-2010, 10:22 PM   #107
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hmm... interesting. not only are you anti Iranian, your anti Palestinian
yet you claim to be a persian who strives for freedom in your native country...

can't really put much weight in anything you say now when your willing to "fuck" palestinians who want the same thing as you and fight for it as your people in Iran do; not to mention the palestinians are in a far bleaker situation
Ya, I can see your logic there but let me explain it to you this way. Iran does not like Israel (I actually love Israel and have been there). Israel does not like Palestine. If Israel keep this shit up with Palestine, then Iran may attack Israel and the US will get involved and then bye bye Iran and their regime. It may be a very big long shot, but I'm going to stick to what I said earlier and Fuck Palestine.
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Old 06-05-2010, 01:19 AM   #108
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Old 06-05-2010, 01:58 AM   #109
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Buddy wrote this. The beginning just explains why he doesn't support Israel blindely. Keep reading on it gets pretty dope.

Jonathan Lerner: A THOROUGH ANALYSIS OF THE FLOTILLA ISSUE

I would like to take this opportunity to relay my thoughts on the current Flotilla issue involving Israel in what I believe to be a well thought-out and practical approach.

I wish to begin by stating that I am a secular Jew and my support for Israel is not reliant on any form of purely religious doctrine which would be subject to many standard forms of logical refutation and/or reliant on circular arguments. Rather, my support for Israel is both historically based and practical in nature. I base my support for the state of Israel on the same criteria I would any other: pragmatic considerations of policy and ideological foundation.

My long-term and general support for Israel is based off of numerous facts regarding its nature which are perhaps not widely acknowledged or known:

- Israel is the only true and consistent secular democracy in the Middle East.

- Israel is a major bastion of women's rights having had a female head of state long before most 'modern' nations and obviously before the United States.

- Israel is also a bastion of homosexual rights allowing gays to serve openly in the military since the mid-1990's and recognizing same-sex marriages performed in other countries, such as Canada. Israel also allows for gay adoption and provides extensive support for the gay community. Indeed, when orthodox persons threatened violence at a pride parade a few years ago, Israeli authorities provided so much security for the parade that there were more police than participants - all to ensure the right of the parade attendees.

- Israel is a leader in technological advancement and does not hinder its progress based on religious doctrine. Indeed, Israel has more medical breakthroughs per capita than any other country on Earth. It is also has the greatest number of foreign (non-US) companies listed on the NASDAQ.

- Israel is a leader in environmental policy with companies which have provided hybrid energy alternatives since the 80s and is the ONLY nation in the world to enter the 21st century with a net gain in trees.

- Israel is a leader in humanitarian aid in Africa and around the world.

For these reasons and others I am a strong supporter of Israel's existence and security. This does not mean, however, that I am a 'blind' supporter, such as those who follow a religious doctrine without any consideration for its merits. My support of Israel's individual actions are on a case-by-case basis and I am fully prepared and even happy to admit her failures. Like any other nation, Israel is capable of making mistakes. I am fully prepared to recognized these. What is important to note is that Israel has a fully secular and impartial judicial system which oversees its government and which routinely inspects the country's actions. I also believe that Israel is held to a double standard which no other country faces.

That being said, i would like to move on to the next topic which is...

THE BLOCKADE OF GAZA:

The blockade of Gaza is neither enjoyable nor positive for Israel. Indeed, it costs the country millions of dollars every year (which could otherwise be spent on social services, etc.) and incalculable damage to its international reputation. Rather, the blockage is one of unfortunate necessity and prudence.

It is an approximately 3-year old policy of Israel to maintain a blockade of Gaza and it is done due to the smuggling of numerous arms into the territory for Hamas. Hamas is an entity with much blood on its hands; not just of Israelis but of citizens of many countries including Canada, the United States, etc. Indeed, it is listed as a terrorist entity by Canada, the US, the entire EU, Japan, Australia, and many many others. The smuggling of weaponry and military equipment from rocket launchers, to AK-47s, to night-vision goggles prompted the blockade, which has been successful in reducing the armaments of Hamas (although much weaponry is still smuggled-in by Iran and Syria through a network of complex tunnels).

However, it is extremely important to note that, despite what may be said in biased media reports, the blockade is NOT an all-out ban on aid/goods in and out of Gaza. Rather, the blockade is a method of screening goods to make sure no military hardware/weaponry is being smuggled in. Indeed, enough aid is provided by Israel to Gaza every year to equal 1 ton for every man, woman and child in the territory. In fact, the 'aid' aboard the flotilla was but a small portion of what flows into Gaza every single WEEK.

Shipping aid into Gaza is not very difficult; Israel is very accomodating. Many organizations, whether they be the UN, Oxfam, the Red Cross, Save the Children, Amnesty International, etc. constantly ship wares into the territory. What the blockade entails is that shipments by sea must stop in a nearby Israeli port for screening before being transferred to Gaza. Indeed, this is the exact deal which was offered to those operating the flotilla: dock in Israel, have the goods of the ship inspected for weaponry and then all of the aid will be delivered to Gaza free of charge. But those in command of the flotilla refused to dock in Israel and have their cargo inspected. Makes you wonder how serious they could have been about delivering this aid?

And that leads to the next topic:

THE FLOTILLA:

I do not believe that the Flotilla was a true humanitarian mission. If the activists aboard truly wanted their aid delivered there were a multitude of methods by which it could have been delivered in a much faster and more cost-effective manner, including using a third-party NGO or even taking Israel up on its offer to ship the aid for free from the nearby port. Taking any of these avenues would have allowed the aid to reach Gaza much more quickly and also saved plenty of money which could have been spent on future shipments. Indeed, even after the incident at sea Israel shipped the aid into Gaza after it was properly inspected.

Rather, the Flotilla was/is an incredibly smart and intricate PR stunt designed to grab the attention and sympathy of the world. It left Israel in a catch-22 situation and led to an international incident. Some may say that I am being insensitive by saying this, since people died in this stunt. While the loss of life is highly unfortunate and deeply regrettable it does not change the facts or make the motives of those in charge of the Flotilla any less cynical. While I am sure that there were genuinely concerned and mislead people aboard those boats, the organizers of the Flotilla and the majority of its passengers were fully aware of their actions and what they were attempting.

It is worth noting that these were supposed to be cargo ships which should require only a small number of passengers to manage the vessels; the majority of loading and unloading of cargo would be fully assisted on shore. Yet, around 700 passengers were onboard. Many of them brought no identification (I wonder why) and carried thousands of dollars in cash. They also brought with them the equipment for molotov cocktails, large military knives, stun grenades, batons and other weaponry. These seems highly strange for 'humanitarians' to carry. I have never heard of any Red Cross, Oxfam or other workers bringing such items with them when delivering their cargo.

The video evidence is also incredibly clear: before the Israeli soldiers even boarded the ship (when they were merely pulled-up beside it) soldiers were being hit with stun grenades, metal chains and sharp objects. Once the soldiers entered the ship they were immediately attacked with knives, batons, etc. Video shows the direct stabbing of soldiers. Others grabbed the pistols of the soldiers and began shooting. Now if I was here on Canadian soil and I was in a gathering of some kind and my friends were beating and stabbing police officers and I grabbed a gun from the holster of an officer I would have to be a complete and utter moron to expect not to be shot. Not only that but the police officer who acted in that way would probably be praised for his heroism and given a promotion. But if an Israeli soldier or police officer does the same they are called murderers.

A similar double standard is held to the intervention itself. If six ships were headed for Canada's coast and there was no way of verifying what was on board, and these ships repeatedly refused to have their contents screened through the standard procedures, we as Canadians would not only expect but want the Canadian Forces and RCMP to intercept the vessels.

Instead, Israel is labeled an aggressor. But what kind of aggressor would arm its soldiers with paintball guns. Not even rubber bullets! The only live rounds carried by the soldiers were in holstered pistols ordered to be used as a last resort. This does not seem particularly aggressive to me. What is aggressive are the actions and words of the activists. Evidence shows them shouting "Itbach el Yahud" (slaughter the Jews). But it is very rare for this footage to make its way onto the national news. Instead, we are inundated with interviews of biased sources, such as the activists themselves, without the actual video evidence from the security cameras aboard the ship(s).

There are some who hide behind the fact that Israel boarded the ship in International waters. It is true that the media storm would have been less intense had Israel waited for them to enter Israeli waters. But the details and the motives of the Flotilla would not have been altered by these few kilometers. The same ships with the same people would have been there and they made it immensely clear of their intensions to cross that border. In fact, many cases of International Law are clear that boarding a vessel intending to break a blockade is acceptable even in international waters, provided the motives are clear. Those who harp on the location of the incident are merely distracting from the real issues and are mincing words in a desperate attempt to justify the actions of the activists.

Those detained by Israel were all released within 72hrs (even those who attacked the soldiers and/or had ties to terrorist entities). Anyone requiring medical attention received it free of charge. Aid was sent straight to Gaza.

I would like to now discuss a similar topic:

HAMAS AND THE IHH:

I will begin with a brief discussion of the IHH, one of the main groups behind the Flotilla. The IHH is an organization which is highly political and extreme. The IHH has been linked by French Intelligence services to Al-Qaeda based activities and in plots to target US airports and civilians. It is extremely strange to me that people are so sympathetic to the IHH and its Flotilla considering its other activities.

I have also been asked questions regarding Hamas' election and Israel's trouble negotiating with Hamas. It is important to note that to say that Israel does not negotiate with Hamas would be false. Negotiations (often indirect) are constant and this is how so many cease-fires are brought about. What has not been negotiated is a long-term peace agreement, although this is not a failing of Israel by any means. Any entity (eg. Egypt) which has agreed to come to the bargaining table with Israel has walked away with a peace treaty or similar agreement. There is one important item, however, which these parties agree to and with Hamas does not: Israel's right to exist. Hamas continually refuses to modify its charter to recognize a Jewish state. Its charter calls for the destruction of Israel, the death of its citizens and attacks on all allies (Canada included). It is impossible to have meaningful negotiations when one side refuses to recognize the other's basic existence. I, for example, could not discuss human rights with someone who refused to recognize a gay person's right to an opinion. The discussion would simply break down. It couldn't proceed. This is the stumbling block of negotiating with Hamas.

It is true that Hamas was elected by the Gazans. However, Hamas violently intimidates their opponents to the point of massacre. As well, election does not alter the character of an entity. An elected terrorist organization is still a terrorist organization. And caving to the unruly demands of a terrorist group is a hopeless act. Terrorists cannot be reasoned with in the way a regular group can. They are like a child throwing a tantrum - giving the child what they want will only teach her that she may throw a similar tantrum anytime to obtain her desires. Similarly, agreeing to the demands of a terrorist entity will only encourage future occurrences of the same. It is also worth remembering that election by a populace (especially a scared, brainwashed and coerced populace) does not lend much legitimacy. After all, many violent dictators in Africa and South America (as well as Hitler in Germany) got their start as democratically elected officials.

Canada, the United States and Israel (amongst others) recognize Hamas as having been elected and as the leaders of the Gazan people. But this does not entail that they should remove Hamas from their terrorist lists - Hamas' election does not alter its nature.

THE BLOCKADE OF GAZA:

Is the blockade of Gaza sustainable? Absolutely not. While the people of Gaza receive millions upon millions of tons of aid their living conditions are still not optimal. As well, the blockade costs Israel plenty of money, resources, and reputation. Blockades in general are only temporary stop-gaps to solving problems. HOWEVER, the un-sustainability of the blockade does not mean it should immediately be dismantled. Consider as an analogy our dependance on fossil fuels. It is a terrible situation in which we do harm to the environment and ruin resources we cannot replace. It is not sustainable in the least. But if we were to stop using fossil fuels over night we would face a world-wide collapse and catastrophe. We would have no transportation, no heating, no trade... chaos would ensue. Instead what we need is a thoroughly researched and timed transition from fossil fuels to renewable sources of energy, such as solar power. We need to have a proper transition to avoid collapse of economies and industries (if not society).

To end the blockade instantly would be similarly disastrous and would allow an incredible surge of weaponry bound for Hamas and costs thousands of innocent lives. It would destabilize an entire region and potentially lead to confrontation on a world scale. A removal of the blockade must be done only after negotiations have provided for a government for Gaza which has a peace treaty with Israel and a value for peace in general. A removal of the blockade must be a slow and delicate process.

I hope that this has provided some insight into my views. Feel free to share it with others.
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Old 06-05-2010, 02:01 AM   #110
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Yo Stylinbrah why you gotta fail me. I posted that video to ease the tension in this thread
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Old 06-05-2010, 02:22 AM   #111
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cuz it eased my tension :P


thats waaaaay too long a read im not that passionate about this
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Old 06-05-2010, 03:17 AM   #112
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The Rachel Corrie was seized in International Waters as well earlier Nobel Laureate and Former Assistant UN Secretary General were aboard


The Rachel Corrie btw is named after Rachel Aliene Corrie (an american) who was defending a Palestinian Home in the Gaza Strip in protest of Israeli Defense Forces from bulldozing the home

The IDF however decided to crush her with the bulldozer



Quote:
Israeli commandos seize aid boat headed for Gaza

...

"We're not prepared to turn around," said Irish Nobel Peace Prize laureate Mairead Maguire, who is aboard the ship. "We are prepared to go straight to Gaza."

"We will stay within the international waters," said Maguire. "If Israel refuses that we get into Gaza and insists on boarding our boat, then we will sit down as non-violent activists. We will be very peaceful. We will not resist the Israeli navy coming aboard, arresting us and taking us by force to [the Israeli port city of ] Ashdod, but we will not turn around. We will keep going."

Organizers said the ship was carrying 550 tons of cement to help rebuild schools, homes and other buildings destroyed in Gaza.

Maguire said the ship was also carrying "tons" of writing materials donated by Norway, pharmaceuticals and medical equipment -- including wheelchairs donated by Scotland -- and toys.

Former Assistant U.N. Secretary-General Denis Halliday, also aboard the Rachel Corrie, said Thursday the passengers had no plans to confront the Israelis.

"We will stand back and show we are harmless and unarmed -- we will put up no resistance," he said. "We're not going to make any silly mistakes."

...
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/...ex.html?hpt=T2


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Mairead Maguire: Nobel winner, veteran peace campaigner

(AFP) – 17 hours ago

BELFAST — Nobel Peace Prize laureate Mairead Maguire, among activists on an Irish aid boat vowing to reach Gaza on Saturday, is a veteran peace campaigner who is no stranger to run-ins with Israel.

The 66-year-old, who was joint winner of the Nobel prize in 1976 as co-founder of the Community of Peace People movement in Northern Ireland, said those on board the MV Rachel Corrie were "not afraid."

"We started out to deliver this cargo to the people of Gaza and to break the siege of Gaza, that is what we want to do," she said on the eve of the expected confronation with Israeli authorities.

The comments were typical of the combative peace activist, who campaigned for an end to fighting through the depths of Northern Ireland's three-decade long Troubles, which left some 3,500 people dead.

Maguire was born into a Catholic community in Belfast on January 27, 1944, the daughter of a window cleaner father and housewife mother, growing up with five sisters and two brothers.

After leaving school at the age of 16 she worked as a secretary while increasing voluntary activities, culminating in setting up the Peace People which won her the Nobel prize jointly with co-founder Betty Williams.

After that landmark she widened her activities to defending human rights around the world, along the way meeting leaders including Queen Elizabeth II, US president Jimmy Carter and Pope John Paul II.

In 1993 she accompanied six other Nobel Peace winners in Thailand in trying to enter neighbouring Myanmar to protest against the detention of democracy leader Aung San Suu Kyi.

Her commitment led her to clashes with authorities on a number of occasions: in 1994 she was expelled from the Philippines after attending a conference on East Timor.

More recently she threw her weight behind the Palestinian cause. In April 2009 she accused Israeli authorities of practising "ethnic cleansing" in East Jerusalem.

Two months later she was arrested by the Israeli army when troops boarded an aid boat heading for Gaza. At the time she was accompanied by former US congresswoman Cynthia McKinney who was also detained, before being deported.

Maried to Jackie Maguire since September 1981, she has two children: John Francis and Luke, born in 1982 and 1984 respectively.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...1m8v1UDHeJg76Q
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Old 06-05-2010, 11:14 AM   #113
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Rachel Corrie died because she sat on the ground with her legs crossed in front of an Israeli bulldozer and the driver didn't see her. No one decided to crush her, that's just ridiculous.
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Old 06-05-2010, 11:45 AM   #114
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in the past, Israel has caught arms being shipped to Lebanon for hezbollahhttp://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6903092.ece

what stops IRAN or other countries from shipping arms/weapons aboard ships to GAZA under the aid label .

till other countries. ie. IRAN, SERIA, are supporting hezbollah, things arn't gonna improve.
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Old 06-05-2010, 12:24 PM   #115
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Rachel Corrie died because she sat on the ground with her legs crossed in front of an Israeli bulldozer and the driver didn't see her. No one decided to crush her, that's just ridiculous.
that's Israel's version of the story.

but all the other protesters there and evidence (that picture for example) say otherwise

its wonderful how israel has a simple excuse for everything... nothings ever complex and nothings ever their fault
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Old 06-05-2010, 12:37 PM   #116
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cuz it eased my tension :P


thats waaaaay too long a read im not that passionate about this
your not that passionate about the issue? yet you sit in here replying to everything.
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Old 06-05-2010, 01:33 PM   #117
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Looks like there maybe 2 more flotilla's coming including one with the Turkish PM and the Turkish navy.
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Old 06-05-2010, 02:43 PM   #118
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that's Israel's version of the story.

but all the other protesters there and evidence (that picture for example) say otherwise

its wonderful how israel has a simple excuse for everything... nothings ever complex and nothings ever their fault
She died of terminal stupidity. A 9 year old can outrun a bulldozer, and has the wits to not stand in front of one.
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She died of terminal stupidity. A 9 year old can outrun a bulldozer, and has the wits to not stand in front of one.
I guess you don't understand how a protest works.
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Old 06-05-2010, 03:40 PM   #120
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I guess you don't understand how a protest works.
I guess you don't understand how real life works.

Sitting down in front of a huge bulldozer with limited visibility from the inside = death wish
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Old 06-05-2010, 04:03 PM   #121
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I guess you don't understand how real life works.

Sitting down in front of a huge bulldozer with limited visibility from the inside = death wish
If you know protesters are there maybe you should be more careful.
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Old 06-05-2010, 04:39 PM   #122
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I guess you don't understand how a protest works.
I guess you are just as dumb as she is...was. Go play in traffic.
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Old 06-05-2010, 05:10 PM   #123
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^^Ever heard of Tiananmen square? It's called a protest you fucking moron.^^

Either way, I see a lot of misinformed people in this thread.

No matter how you cut it, it was proven there were no actual weapons on the ship, read the news. Shots were fired at the people on the boat, BEFORE they Israelis even ziplined onto the ship.

You can argue for hours whether or not the protesters were stupid for fighting back, but it's all a mute point. Israel should not have boarded the damn ship in the first place, it is a clear breach of International Law.

If you sit here and defend them for this, than you have no clue on how important this law is, and how it should be abided by all countries.

Israel should never have boarded this ship, and their acts of aggression are cruel and disgusting. Pull your head out of your fucking asses, and quit drinking the Western/Israeli Propaganda.

Both sides are to blame in this ongoing conflict, but Israel made the wrong move on this one.
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Old 06-05-2010, 05:15 PM   #124
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fucking zionists. you still prove yourself to be a tool

oh and those who brought up the nato bullshit, it seems like israel attacked a turkish ship in international waters.

Last edited by Meowjin; 06-05-2010 at 05:36 PM.
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Old 06-05-2010, 05:20 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemhg View Post
Both sides are to blame in this ongoing conflict


I think this is the bitter pill that everyone in this thread needs to swallow.
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