REVscene - Vancouver Automotive Forum

FeistyBearH22a · 12-31-2010, 10:54 AM

Im wondering cause it's regarding a ticket I would like to dispute. The officer claimed I "ran a yellow light" he pulled a U turn and proceeded to go after me. He then said based on his speedometer I was "going 70".

Planning to dispute the ticket and I dont know if its allowed to request for the evidence on me. Namely, if there is a video recorder on the dash of the police car. Thanks!

seakrait · 01-01-2011, 04:16 AM

to my knowledge, there aren't a lot of VPD cruisers with cameras (though I could be wrong) but you definitely CAN request disclosure on the info used against you.

contact the officer directly for that info. 604.717.3349 then enter his/her PIN to reach his/her voicemail.

zulutango · 01-01-2011, 07:19 AM

Just a thought...if you did do what the Cop said, and it's all on video and you are requesting disclosure, you know he will be playing it in court and you have just flushed just about any chance of beating the VT? Sometimes what you remember, is not what actually happened and video evidence can be very damming evidence.

sebberry · 01-01-2011, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zulutango

Just a thought...if you did do what the Cop said, and it's all on video and you are requesting disclosure, you know he will be playing it in court and you have just flushed just about any chance of beating the VT? Sometimes what you remember, is not what actually happened and video evidence can be very damming evidence.

Either way, verifying the evidence before it goes to trial can't hurt the OP.

PiuYi · 01-03-2011, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zulutango

Just a thought...if you did do what the Cop said, and it's all on video and you are requesting disclosure, you know he will be playing it in court and you have just flushed just about any chance of beating the VT? Sometimes what you remember, is not what actually happened and video evidence can be very damming evidence.

i think OP would pay the ticket and be okay with it if it does show he had time to stop before red and he was going 70km/h, he just doesn't want to be stuck with a ticket simply based on the word of a cop vs his, since cop will win every time

thats how i'd feel at least

slammer111 · 01-03-2011, 04:42 PM

^ I had a similar problem. I thought I turned R on an intersection that I thought was green, but a cop (unmarked) busted me a few blocks away claiming it was red. The worst part was that when he asked me what he was busting me for, I thought it was for speeding (going 65 in a 50). After he told me, I told him I don't remember doing that at all, and asked him if he had a camera on the dash. He said No, but both he and his partner saw it was red. My word against theirs. For all I know, they didn't even get the correct car, as this was during rush hour at a busy intersection, and they were several cars behind me.

I had no vacation days left, so just sucked it up and paid the ticket.

What a cash grab.

FeistyBearH22a · 01-03-2011, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zulutango

Just a thought...if you did do what the Cop said, and it's all on video and you are requesting disclosure, you know he will be playing it in court and you have just flushed just about any chance of beating the VT? Sometimes what you remember, is not what actually happened and video evidence can be very damming evidence.

All the more reason why it's a good idea to see the evidence? Truth be told I dont know how fast I was going. Whats the worst that could happen? I pay for the ticket when it actually does show i did what I was accused of doing?

Lets review the facts. I ran a yellow (apparently). The cops admit making a U turn to pursue. Pulled to a stop light i then spotted the cop. Light turns green and I pulled to the right hand lane. He turns his lights on and says I was speeding. WTF!? we were at a stop light! I get the ticket. I asked if he had the radar on me. Cop gets defensive and says he doesnt want to argue and says he said he based the judgement by looking at his speedo.

Uh.. when did he look at the speedo exactly? He was pursuing me. No shit hes going to go fast.

BallPeenHammer2 · 01-04-2011, 10:13 PM

If the cop is on the opposing side of the street, stopped, how can he tell you were going over the limit while crossing that yellow?

And the last time I checked.....crossing the intersection when it's yellow isn't illegal, unless you speed up over the limit to do it, or if you enter the intersection just when it was turning red......

Dunno. Seems kinda fishy.

zulutango · 01-04-2011, 10:19 PM

Maybe he has you on Radar or visual speed estimation?

Nope, should check again, you are not correct.....

128 (1) When a yellow light alone is exhibited at an intersection by a traffic control signal, following the exhibition of a green light,

(a) the driver of a vehicle approaching the intersection and facing the yellow light must cause it to stop before entering the marked crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if there is no marked crosswalk, before entering the intersection, unless the stop cannot be made in safety,

Gumby · 01-05-2011, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zulutango

crosswalk, before entering the intersection, unless the stop cannot be made in safety

I find the underlined part somewhat... comical...

Any time I've seen that statement brought up, you usually see "if you couldn't stop safely, that means you were speeding, speeding relative to conditions, etc."

sebberry · 01-05-2011, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gumby

I find the underlined part somewhat... comical...

Any time I've seen that statement brought up, you usually see "if you couldn't stop safely, that means you were speeding, speeding relative to conditions, etc."

being tailgated...

zulutango · 01-05-2011, 03:14 PM

Speed, traffic and weather...considerations for a safe stop at a yellow. If you are exceeding the speed limit or driving too fast for conditions, that is not your way out of a charge.

Soundy · 01-05-2011, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zulutango

Speed, traffic and weather...considerations for a safe stop at a yellow. If you are exceeding the speed limit or driving too fast for conditions, that is not your way out of a charge.

I think the point is, it's a no-win argument - cop says you blew the yellow, you say you didn't feel you could "stop safely", cop says you must have been speeding. Sure there are plenty of times that the person may actually have been speeding, but there's a fairly wide area where it's subjective, too - the cop may THINK the driver could have stopped safely, from an outside perspective, but he doesn't know what the driver's perspective was at that moment.

stan-lee · 01-05-2011, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zulutango

Maybe he has you on visual speed estimation?

how does that work exactly??

how accurate are you at a visual speed estimation?

When you are charged , they have to prove in court you were doing these things yes?

If there is no video recording or no radar gun, how can these charges be proved against this gentleman?

zulutango · 01-05-2011, 07:34 PM

Soundy what it comes down to is articulation. How far away from the intersection were you when the green changed to yellow ?...14 metres per second at 50 kmh. Was the road wet or dry, was there anybody so close behind you (what distance?) that you could not safely stop, was the light still yellow when you cleared the intersection? what speed were you going (within the limits and not "too fast for conditions) ? Was there an advance warning flashing yellow sign board, like at highway intersections. That sort of thing. Most yellow lights run about 4 seconds before they turn red....longer in higher speed zones.

Stan-Lee...speed estimation is part of Radar and Laser training. If you cannot accurately estimate vehicle speeds then how can you say wich approaching vehicle you got from the readings in your "tracking history". After 28 years of doing it I often got it within 1 or 2 kmh and always with 5 kmh. I have obtained convictions based on visual estimation alone. They were cases where the speeds involved were way over the posted limits and I gave the speeder a huge margin of error in my estimations.

BallPeenHammer2 · 01-05-2011, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zulutango

Maybe he has you on Radar or visual speed estimation?

Nope, should check again, you are not correct.....

128 (1) When a yellow light alone is exhibited at an intersection by a traffic control signal, following the exhibition of a green light,

(a) the driver of a vehicle approaching the intersection and facing the yellow light must cause it to stop before entering the marked crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if there is no marked crosswalk, before entering the intersection, unless the stop cannot be made in safety,

^ that's pretty much what I was tryiing to get at, but not so well. LOL

BallPeenHammer2 · 01-05-2011, 07:54 PM

and on that note, no disrespect to Zulu or PO's, but visual estimation as the only evidence in court is BULLSHIT.

but that system's SO fallible and pervious to abuse it isn't funny.

I'm not saying Zulu does it, nor all cops. But i simply cannot agree with it, even though i've never gone to court wth that situation.

sho_bc · 01-05-2011, 08:21 PM

And no disrespect to you either, BPH2.

Like most things in life, with training and practice, you can become quite proficient at something. Most people, after an hour using a radar or laser unit, would be able to make general observations regarding whether or not a vehicle is going approximately at, above, or below the speed limit using no device other than their eyes to judge speed.

Part of our training in becoming a laser/radar operator is doing stationary (radar & laser) and mobile (radar) speed estimations. Lots of them. And then day in and out, continued use of laser and radar units fine-tune that ability to some people (zulu, for example) coming within +/- 2-3km/hr efficiency. When I did my training, I averaged +/- 4km/hr but was off by as much as 11km/hr. I therefore give everyone who's speed I visually estimate an 11km/hr "buffer".

FeistyBearH22a · 01-05-2011, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sho_bc

And no disrespect to you either, BPH2.

Like most things in life, with training and practice, you can become quite proficient at something. Most people, after an hour using a radar or laser unit, would be able to make general observations regarding whether or not a vehicle is going approximately at, above, or below the speed limit using no device other than their eyes to judge speed.

Part of our training in becoming a laser/radar operator is doing stationary (radar & laser) and mobile (radar) speed estimations. Lots of them. And then day in and out, continued use of laser and radar units fine-tune that ability to some people (zulu, for example) coming within +/- 2-3km/hr efficiency. When I did my training, I averaged +/- 4km/hr but was off by as much as 11km/hr. I therefore give everyone who's speed I visually estimate an 11km/hr "buffer".

Put it anyway you want; if you ask me its a glorified educated guess. Despite practice; you're still guessing. Besides, the officer did not mention anything about visual speed estimation. He simple said he based my speed on his speedo. He didnt have me on radar. How do i know he didnt have me on radar? cause I asked him if he had me on radar.

This has gone off from my original topic here. I simply asked if all VPD police cars had on board video.

sho_bc · 01-06-2011, 12:54 AM

Say you're 6'0. You're standing near to someone who is a few inches shorter than you. You're asked to estimate (guess) their height. Based on your knowledge and experience, you'll likely be able to make a fairly accurate estimation (guess). The same as judging the distance when parallel parking: will your car fit or won't it? Or for period historians judging an artifact's age. Its ALL guessing, but it is educated and informed guessing that is generally quite accurate.

As for going off-course, any and all discussion forum threads tend to do that, for better or for worse.

In your case, what the officer said to you is something you can bring the day of the trial, if it goes that route. As for VPD (or any police service) having cameras in all of their car, no they don't. Generally only traffic sections do and even then, not all of the traffic section cars have them. Write and ask, and you'll find out if there was one in your instance.

kouki_monster · 01-06-2011, 01:23 AM

If I were in your shoes I would dispute it if I had the time and ask for a video, just my opinion tho.

Did you get pulled over near the end of the month? I swear are these cops lazy procrastinators and have quotas or something? I was eating pho on kingsway / imperial on the 28th few days before new year..

Cop pulls over van, issues ticket then drives less than 5 meters right after van pulls off(LITERALLY), pulls over red miata. Issues ticket again then pulls a u-turn right after red miata leaves and sirens another car down (don't recall which kind). Same thing happens. Right after third guy leaves.. he sirens ANOTHER car down instantly.

I witnessed 4 tickets in 20ish mins eating my beef noodle soup at pho hong.

ninjatune · 01-06-2011, 03:52 AM

If Police wrote tickets for every offence observed they'd never make it to a call for service. No calls holding however? ... write some tickets. Beleive it or not, traffic enforcement does serve a purpose! I'm willing to bet 75%+ of the vehicles passing by a police cruiser on the side of the road with lights activated are not slowing down or moving over as the law requires. If the member is just clearing the traffic stop why not pull over the last car that just whipped by 5 feet behind your heels at the speed limit.

impactX · 01-06-2011, 03:57 AM

If the cop was able stop on the opposite side (during the yellow), pull a u-turn to "pursue" while you ran a yellow, pace you till 50km/h and you were pulling away, I think I know what the JJP is going to say.

impactX · 01-06-2011, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kouki_monster

If I were in your shoes I would dispute it if I had the time and ask for a video, just my opinion tho.

Did you get pulled over near the end of the month? I swear are these cops lazy procrastinators and have quotas or something? I was eating pho on kingsway / imperial on the 28th few days before new year..

Cop pulls over van, issues ticket then drives less than 5 meters right after van pulls off(LITERALLY), pulls over red miata. Issues ticket again then pulls a u-turn right after red miata leaves and sirens another car down (don't recall which kind). Same thing happens. Right after third guy leaves.. he sirens ANOTHER car down instantly.

I witnessed 4 tickets in 20ish mins eating my beef noodle soup at pho hong.

Soundy · 01-06-2011, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zulutango

Soundy what it comes down to is articulation. How far away from the intersection were you when the green changed to yellow ?...14 metres per second at 50 kmh. Was the road wet or dry, was there anybody so close behind you (what distance?) that you could not safely stop, was the light still yellow when you cleared the intersection? what speed were you going (within the limits and not "too fast for conditions) ? Was there an advance warning flashing yellow sign board, like at highway intersections. That sort of thing. Most yellow lights run about 4 seconds before they turn red....longer in higher speed zones.

But again the cop only has visible, external factors to go on. I know, on the other hand, that if I slam on the brakes too hard driving my work van, stuff in the back is going to come toppling down. There may be enough room for me to stop under hard braking, but not enough for me to do it safely FROM MY PERSPECTIVE AS THE DRIVER. SUBJECTIVITY again.