Considering an E38...

[Mr.C]

I know most people here like Japanese cars, but I am just looking for other non-BMW enthusiast opinions on these. I do not have a specific one in mind, but it will most likely be one with the Cold Weather package. Is it a decent car? What am I looking at in terms of maintenance? 2 grand/year? More? Less?

All I've seen online is that it seems to be a reliable car with pretty decent mpg for a 4.4L V8. What do you guys think?

Also, I will likely not mod it. Maybe, maybe tint it. I'd be looking at a 740i, not an iL.

[busdriverman]

Originally Posted by Mr.C

I know most people here like Japanese cars

how did you get that impression lol

i love many cars...euro, JDM and some USDM as well

back to OP, have you considered the e39? (5 series)

[skylinergtr]

Originally Posted by Mr.C

I know most people here like Japanese cars, but I am just looking for other non-BMW enthusiast opinions on these. I do not have a specific one in mind, but it will most likely be one with the Cold Weather package. Is it a decent car? What am I looking at in terms of maintenance? 2 grand/year? More? Less?

All I've seen online is that it seems to be a reliable car with pretty decent mpg for a 4.4L V8. What do you guys think?

Also, I will likely not mod it. Maybe, maybe tint it. I'd be looking at a 740i, not an iL.

its a beautiful car, but you got to remember that this is the flagship of bmw. Things will be pricey. IL or not, its the same. This is a luxury car, with a luxary price tag, with expensive parts.

Things to look out for:
suspension (like most bmws... look at condition of balljoints, control arm bushings, rear subframe bushings, engine/tranny mounts, shock absorbers, etc.)

for the engine, the m62 4.4L is a great engine. It does have a few cons though to look for:

-valley pan(the cover ontop of the cooling channel in the middle of the engine). I have done this on my 5 series. Its not a fairly difficult job, but its annoying, and the dealership or any shop will charge you a fortune for it. if theres any smell or loss of coolant, its possibly from the gasket failing on the valley pan.
-intake leaks - i have a friend with a 2001 740i sport with an intake leak. I guess they are somewhat common, sort of pricey, and can cause the car to be a little shakey.
-microfilters- the car has 4 microfilters! two on the hood of the car, appart of the insulation, and two somewhere in the interior that i've heard is a real PITA to replace.

-transmission - i think its a "lifetime fluid" in it. I suggest getting the lowest mileage example money can buy, and getting the transmission a complete pressurized flush if you want it to last a long time.

I tell most people that are thinking about buying a bmw to realize the bmw costs of ownership. Call local shops, or look at parts on line. Look at simple stuff like brake pads, and rotors. Oil changes on this car cost over $120 easy.

None the less, its a great car. Just giving a heads up that it might be pricey. I've all ready spent more than what i bought my 5 series for on it just for maintenance, and its still not done. I have $2000 worth of parts in my bedroom right now awaiting a steering system overhaul. These are expensive cars for some, and some are lucky to just just do nothing but oil changes.

[donjalapeno]

^ that

[hk20000]

one of the guys here rock one of those actually. his name has toyota on it.

[bcrdukes]

toyota86

[too_slow]

I've always lusted over a 2001 740i Sport.. There's a few 740i sports with a 6spd tranny conversion from a 540i on bimmerforums..

[Phat_R]

I had an E39 M5 -- great car! What is an E38?

[lowside67]

E38 is the 7 series.

I will +1 on the recommendation to get an E39, there are a lot more of them around so parts are a bit easier to find, particularly in the junkyard, etc. and they are beautiful cars and share a lot of the "feel" with the 7er...

Mark

[freakshow]

What makes you look at the e38 over the e39?
e39 M5s are fairly reliable for being 10 year old cars and they've also come down in price. I think you'll be hard pressed to find a better balance of comfort, cost, power and reliability for the price of an e39 M5. (As long as you have a tree that gives free gas)

I'm not biased at all.. i don't know what you're talking about.

[toyota86]

i got one. 01 740i sport. if you are serious about getting one, always look for a late 2001. for the e38, the newer the better. bmw make updates every year, 01 is your best bet for reliability. easiest way to tell if found a late 01 is to see if the car has a big screen nav. if it does and its original, you're golden. find one with a sport pack too. sports suspension, shadow line (chrome delete), sport seats, 3.15 diff instead of 2.93, high stall torque converter, m-parallel wheels, etc. and, i think all Canadian cars come with cold weather package. if it has heated steering wheel, heated seats for not just front but the rear as well, it should be equipped with cold weather pack.

receipts, receipts, receipts. can't stress that enough. if the car comes with records and lots of it, you should be good. if not, get it checked out by someone who knows these cars. bcaa wont cut it. e38 are very reliable cars if they are maintained. some parts that you would normally expect to last forever on japanese cars are considered maintenance items on bmw. its just the way it is. deal with it. e38 e39 i think are one of the last bmw you could work on yourself without much hassle. nothing really impossible to do and most of it is pretty straight forward.

if you find a nicely maintained one you shouldn't need to spend 2k a year. just remember to save some money aside for every 100,000km for a 4-5k maintenance. im talking about parts only. will be significantly more if you take it to a shop. some weak points of 740i. suspension bushings, cooling system, vacuum leaks, certain plastic bits, pcv system, transmissions, etc

fuel economy. well for one, the 3.15 in mine doesn't help. 740i are pretty good for highway driving. gets about 9-10L/100km. pure city with congestion, its like 18-19L/100km. i average 15-16 mixed. if im really careful, i can get it down to 13-14 mixed.

e38 are great cars but you really have to get into the mind set that you are driving a +100k when it was new and the maintenance will reflect that. it won't be your average corolla. also, if you end up not picking the e38 740i, i would suggest you look at a 03 530i m-sports pack in 5 spd manual. those are much more reliable and toss-able around a corner.

[PJ]

Originally Posted by toyota86

some parts that you would normally expect to last forever on japanese cars are considered maintenance items on bmw. its just the way it is. deal with it.

^This.

Consider it a "fee" for driving a luxury german car.

[OBgeezer]

I have a e39 540i. The snowstorm today on the island finally make me decided to sell it. If you are serious and have cash in hand, pm me.

- Each oil change take 8L 0-40w, with a oem filter, the cheapest you can get it done is $100.

- 9L/100 on highway, 14L/100 in city, and it drinks 91+. So it is more expensive to run than others.

- The Brakes are $1000 incl. labor at all 4, oem, not too bad for a heavy and very well build car, imo.

- The tranny flush and diff oil change, cost only $300 incl. labor, will last another 100k.

- It will eat up a set of pilot sport A/S+ every 50000km as I don't do rotation as bmw recommended. Drive between Victoria and Calgary at least 4 times a year.

- LOVE this car on highway. Endless torque, comfy yet nice feedback, always a joy to drive it through the Rockies.

- Most e39/38 will miss a few pixel on the dash. Can be fixed for $500+shipping if it bothers you.

- Get a peake code reader, it will save you money. 5 min to change a pair of o2, under $100@ oem.

- Change the cooling system, just in case, never want to break down and tow to nearest bmw dealer $$$.

- The rear window regulators will break. Cost $20-$500, depends on how it broke.

- Check the fluids regularly. The P/S hose ends may leak. My V8 use 0.5L per 5000km. The cooling system always the weakest link.

Great car IMO. The M62 is one of the best engine. It needs routine maintenance, can't cheap out like most other Japanese cars.

[bcrdukes]

Originally Posted by freakshow

What makes you look at the e38 over the e39?
e39 M5s are fairly reliable for being 10 year old cars and they've also come down in price. I think you'll be hard pressed to find a better balance of comfort, cost, power and reliability for the price of an e39 M5. (As long as you have a tree that gives free gas)

I'm not biased at all.. i don't know what you're talking about.

+1.

I went from strictly Japanese cars (Toyota) to BMW. freakshow summed it up well and I will agree with him 110% of the way. I bought an E30 325i two years ago. The car was quite reliable, save for the troubleshooting nightmare I had to encounter (my own fault.) I've moved on to another BMW which has a track record of excellent reliability and parts availability.

The E30, E34, E36, and E39 platforms will be around for quite some time. The E30, as an example, has been discontinued for quite a long time already but has a solid foundation of enthusiasts and racing programs dedicated to the chassis in itself.

[maxx]

With any 7 series, as well as any M car, the service records are as important as the car having a transmission, or an engine.

You have to make sure that the car you are looking for has service records from day 1 - those cars will usually cost more than the 5-8k craiglist whores. The reason for that is for a vehicle that is bombarded with technology and sensors and all that other gubbins, owners must do maintenance and recall (if any) service on the dime. German cars, are very finicky, maintenance must be done on time or a few days earlier. This is all still implying flagships and high performance models. (allright and i guess all other BMWs)

Secondly, the car is old. You have to expect things to fail. If they do, it will not be cheap. Parts and labor are quite expensive. And if you do not take your 7 or M to an authorized BMW technician... expect thousands of dollars of repairs further down the road. There are a few independent shops which employ BMW trained techs, yet do not charge $140/hour labor. These people have had to pass rigorous tests and memorize these cars inside and out and they will be the most qualified to work on your 7 or M vehicle.

E38s are great, one day i plan to own one. I'm buying an E39 5er in a few weeks cause i love the body style, I cant really afford a 7, cause the one i want is 14000. But its proper, its got one owner, its got a bible of maintenance records. Its impeccable. Sure there's a juicy 740i on CL right now for 5k. My 5 series will cost me much more than that. But no thanks, that 7 is a bag full of surprises.

Good luck, make a wise decision and make sure to get every BMW inspected at the BMW dealer or an independent shop that employs BMW factory trained techs (i.e. CG Motorsports).

[Mr.C]

Any recommendations on shops for maintenance or mechanics to inspect?

I would not get a newer M5. If I were to get one, I'd get a early 1995 M5. Not too much of a fan of any M5 afterward. However, that would likely entail insane maintenance, and my spouse would likely kill me in my sleep for buying that.

What about price wise? $12k for a very nice condition one? More? Less?

[bcrdukes]

Originally Posted by Mr.C

Any recommendations on shops for maintenance or mechanics to inspect?

Several reputable shops which specialize and/or have extensive experience with BMW off the top of my head:

Nixon Automotive - Burnaby
CG Motorsports - Richmond
MB Euro - Vancouver
The Euro Shop - Surrey
German Auto Sports - Surrey

[OBgeezer]

+1 on German Auto Sports

When I am thinking about it, an older bimmers aren't that expensive to run.

- A loaded econbox is ~$30k, with $10k down, 0% 60mths, monthly payment is ~$350. (annual $4000)

- A 10 yrs old e38/e39 is ~$10k, same as the down payment. Annual cost is $500-3000. (fluids change vs. complete cooling / suspension redone, every year...)

After 5 years (80,000km),
- Econbox worths $10k, loss $20k.
- BMW worths $0-5k, (500,3k *5 +10k -0), loss $12k - $25k

7L/100km vs 15L/100km -> 80k = 6400L ~ $1.5/L = $10,000 gas bill diff next 5yrs.

----------------
So, a 4.4L e38/39, will cost $2000 to $35000 more to run than an Econbox serviced @ discount chain stores for the next 5 years.
(on average, you won't pay more than $10 a day to drive a 540/740i, unless you autoX the hell out of it.)

An Econbox will give you peace of mind (warranty) and great fuel mileage.
A V8 BMW will give you 10-way power heated leather seats, heated steering wheel, 300hp / 300lb.ft, RWD, sh1t eating grin everyday.

[too_slow]

You can always compromise slightly by getting a 02/03 530i with the M sport pkg.

[Phil@rise]

Beautiful cars that drive as nice as they look.
Cost of ownership is high, remember these were 100k cars when new. Although it gets cheaper by the year to buy one it doesn't get cheaper by the year to maintain one.
So like suggested above low mileage highly maintained is the way to buy. CG Motorsports in Richmond is a good BMW specific place to have one looked over.

[Alphamale]

Originally Posted by OBgeezer

+1 on German Auto Sports

When I am thinking about it, an older bimmers aren't that expensive to run.

- A loaded econbox is ~$30k, with $10k down, 0% 60mths, monthly payment is ~$350. (annual $4000)

- A 10 yrs old e38/e39 is ~$10k, same as the down payment. Annual cost is $500-3000. (fluids change vs. complete cooling / suspension redone, every year...)

After 5 years (80,000km),
- Econbox worths $10k, loss $20k.
- BMW worths $0-5k, (500,3k *5 +10k -0), loss $12k - $25k

7L/100km vs 15L/100km -> 80k = 6400L ~ $1.5/L = $10,000 gas bill diff next 5yrs.

----------------
So, a 4.4L e38/39, will cost $2000 to $35000 more to run than an Econbox serviced @ discount chain stores for the next 5 years.
(on average, you won't pay more than $10 a day to drive a 540/740i, unless you autoX the hell out of it.)

An Econbox will give you peace of mind (warranty) and great fuel mileage.
A V8 BMW will give you 10-way power heated leather seats, heated steering wheel, 300hp / 300lb.ft, RWD, sh1t eating grin everyday.

That's a pretty fail calculation.

[Mr.C]

What's considered low mileage on these things? 100k?

What about mechanics to do a full, no-bullshit inspection?

Lastly, what should I expect to pay for a well cared for E38?

[bcrdukes]

Always, Always, Always take a car in for a pre-purchase inspection. Take it to any of the shops I mentioned above or a BMW dealership.

[5ive0]

go e39.... amazing car, surprisingly reliable, handles great. Its a no brainer..

I personally love the look of the e38, but something is lost when you go to a slightly bigger car.

even a 01+ 530i. try to get a manual sport.... great trade of between performance, reliability and fuel economy.

[sean_wong]

Originally Posted by maxx

With any 7 series, as well as any M car, the service records are as important as the car having a transmission, or an engine.

Why can't this apply to all cars and not just 7 series and M cars?

Originally Posted by maxx

You have to make sure that the car you are looking for has service records from day 1 - those cars will usually cost more than the 5-8k craiglist whores.

Yeah. Sure. Okay.

Originally Posted by maxx

The reason for that is for a vehicle that is bombarded with technology and sensors and all that other gubbins, owners must do maintenance and recall (if any) service on the dime. German cars, are very finicky, maintenance must be done on time or a few days earlier. This is all still implying flagships and high performance models. (allright and i guess all other BMWs)

LOL! So what happens if its not done on time? Will the motor explode into smitherines because the VANOS simply couldn't handle 0.875km over the oil inspection service light warning?

Originally Posted by maxx

Secondly, the car is old. You have to expect things to fail. If they do, it will not be cheap. Parts and labor are quite expensive. And if you do not take your 7 or M to an authorized BMW technician... expect thousands of dollars of repairs further down the road.

Poppycock. Lot's of non-dealers who can do the work. They aren't F1 engineered, you know.

Originally Posted by maxx

There are a few independent shops which employ BMW trained techs, yet do not charge $140/hour labor. These people have had to pass rigorous tests and memorize these cars inside and out and they will be the most qualified to work on your 7 or M vehicle.

Right. I like your style of fear mongering.

Originally Posted by maxx

Good luck, make a wise decision and make sure to get every BMW inspected at the BMW dealer or an independent shop that employs BMW factory trained techs (i.e. CG Motorsports).

Okay there, fanboy. Some nice subtle side promotion going on there.