u never lived in a 3rd world country have u???? cuz i have back then when china was starting to develop back in 98 when i move there from canada with my dad for a while (also when i was younger as well), back then we were poor cuz my was out of a job & my mom left

but after a while i felt every lucky seeing all the poor ppl there & how it opened my eyes to know that with very little i can do a lot, in the country side when ever spring time hits kids get a month off in school to go help out with the farming at home as its peak season

while in the city i always see construction workers with straw hats & cheap t-shirts & shoes doing heavy lifting, during lunch time ppl push in carts with lunch boxes while all they do is sit in dirty filth eating

plus with no education dog work is all ppl can do, so if u think about (like energy said) its either work under pay with bad conditions or live a life a of crime, scam ppl or become a beggar on the street, worst come worst they end their lives hoping they do better in the next one

u can choose to be rich but sometimes u just can't choose to be poor cuz when your poor your poor (then again i dun expect much from your posts anyways)

is there one with subs??

thanks

This situation is a pretty brutal double edged sword.

One one hand, they know they're being cheated and screwed over by who ever pays them to cut up the ships and it they had any other option, they would prob take it but obvs this option does not exist in the area. Even if they did, 99% of these people have no access to education due to their failed government and extreme poverty as a country, this would exclude a lot of citizens right away.

On the other hand, the ship cutting thing is prob the only source of income sustaining this community/region. If the ship cutting job was not there, they may actually be worse off since there are no other jobs in the area.

Not defending what the company here is doing at all. It's terrible exploitative and cruel, but it would be interesting to see what the workers have to say if this job did not exist. I would also like to know how much 20cent actually buys them in that economy and the average wage. It makes the wage of 20cents sound TERRIBLE if we're comparing it to our standard of living and economy, and I think that's a unfair comparison. Homes in Vancouver cost 1million while some in the USA only cost $30,000. We can't really compare it.

This situation also occurs with sweatshops in China. Workers getting paid a few cents a day and they know they're getting screwed while Nike flips their products for $100 bucks. However, they don't have much choice and many are actually glad the job is there as it is the ONLY source of income in the area.

Again, I'm not supporting what that company is doing because the lack of saftey equipment/training is the ultimate wrong and clearly shows the companie's attitude regarding labour and human life as they are treated as expendable resources, but I think we're missing some information here before we cast the first stone.

Damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

what does the fail button mean nowadays? failure to understand?

look, my point is there's people who are alive today that run on no-income. take for example the slums of phillipines. these people essentially do the same work as the ironeaters in the OP: they recycle. the difference is they recycle for themselves. what we have with the ironeaters (ship recyclers) is an example of exploitation, that is to say they're given just enough money to afford a little more extra than a person with nothing. the fact that they chose to acquire this marginal gain at the expense of their lives is my entire point. you can make 10 cents per hour and be on the verge of death or 33 cents per hour with imminent death and a hard life. does anyone understand this concept? go up to a slum worker and offer him 20 cents per hour to play roulette with himself, he'll take your offer.. that's called a choice right there, and the fact that i can profit from his misery is called exploitation. for anyone that wants to discredit the comparison between the phillipine slums and indias, i'd like to agree with you. they're both different. india's per capita GDP is only a level lower than phillipines, and one level higher than vietnam.

no shit 33 cents per hour is nothing. thats my point. what's the marginal loss from not working at all? nothing.. maybe even a reverse effect if you consider you'll be alive a bit longer if you didnt do that job to begin with. you kill yourself in 5 years to make 30 more dollars or live for another 10 years to help your family with intangible actions?

again back to my point, which i think many of you missed. these people who do this job do it with the full understanding that they're offing themselves in the process. there's no these guys are working without the thought of death in their mind. they're gamblers, all of them, their life for that bit extra

It's true that they're not being forced to work there. No one has a gun to their heads making them cut ships. However, you can achieve the same result if you take away all other options.

A lot of these people have families and are trying to provide however they can for them. The people that want to live for an addition 10 years and live off the streets are outliers. Besides, take a look at their enviroment, economy and geographical location. There is not a whole lot of "living off the street" you can do. There is basicly nothing. There are no dumpers to dive, no fish to catch since the water is poision, no chefs giving you leftovers at the back of the restaurant and there sure as hell are not going to be people taking you in or giving you a hot glass of water on a cold day.

As a result, the marginal cost is your life. You literally work for 20cents or you die.

:speechless: click "CC"..

wait.. what?! no other options.. no slums to dive? there are no slums to dive in india.. are you kidding me... fuck this thread i give up.

You do know not ever inch of a country is populated with people and infrastructure to slum off of, right?

There are still areas of AMERICA, one of the most powerful nations in the world with no internet.

Most people don't want to give up on life and live on the streets, depending on others. Even at 20cents, it is a MASSIVE confidence booster and self worth attainment.

I chuckled a bit when I saw your location. :fullofwin:

compare this to the people in the DTES. they have a choice to leave anytime and get a better life right? so why isnt it happening en masse

You should feel embarassed.

And you took took Business at Sauder's for 8 years? You have no fucking clue about how the world works.

Sell all your belongings, renounce your citizenship, then move to rural China/India. Come back after 3 years, if you're still alive/have enough money to make it back.

I have the book. Good read.

all he does is troll revscene. I've already put him on my ignore list.

lol some of the comments here are pathetic.

^^^^Those people don't have any other choice but to work those kinds of jobs. If there was another, better job they'd take it. The other option is not to work at all and then you just die from being in poverty.

If you don't work then no one will invest in the country. No investments or no "exploitation" can be worse for them. This exploitation can only happen at the start of their growth. As time goes on more and more companies will want the cheap labour and then that will drive wages up. As wages rise, people can start affording better stuff and even demand better conditions. We can see this happening in China as it grows really fast.

Also, if they work and you give them some money and control over their finances, those smart enough will make something out of that. Enough money for school for their kids so that they might get skills needed for a job that isn't hard labour. Maybe some money for use as collateral when they apply for credit and then do something with that credit? I think a lot of our parents or their parents or their parent's parent's did something like that awhile back and look at us now. I think majority of people just assume that stuff like that is bad but is it really?

You sound like someone who would be willing to profit from hiring those people and then explaining it to everyone how you're the good guy.
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Like, dude, the unemployment rate there is insane. Literally, I bet many of these people, if they would not work for the $4 per day, they would likely starve. What part of that don;t you understand?

TBH, I'd be first in line to profit immensely from the exploitation of their labour.

I'm sure most of the level headed people here would do the same. It really is no different that buying Nike shoes or any material asset made in a 3rd world country. Don't act like you're all holier than thou when your true actions speak much louder than your bullshit words.

.

What your preaching makes sense from an economics standpoint. This is actually a contentious subject because there is great debate over the current economic system that creates inequalities and benefits 20% of the world's population at the expense of the other 80. Those people you talked to only say that because they don't have time to think about the system itself that has created their condition. Increasingly, people need wages to survive because their forced to whereas for many centuries, most people were able to survive off their land. Even here in the U.S., it was only in the 18th and early 19th centuries most families lived on farms (good article on this by Stuart Ewen-Industrialization and the Family). Our definition of "poor" was created by the World Bank in 1948 based on per capita income. Development was seen as the solution to poverty. There's a ton of reasons why countries are poor and why their people are poor. One of the most notable reasons goes back to WWII when USA emerged as the biggest lender nation (which they took over from UK). Fast forward to today, US has established institutions such as IMF & World Bank (largely controlled by US) that loan money to countries at exorbitant interest rates (20%+). About 540 billion was borrowed, 550 billion in interest paid, all that is remaining is the principal. This is one of the main reasons why countries are locked in debt. Many government's/elite also took money that was loaned to them and basically pocketed it, and left the countries people with the debt (Bolivia is one such example). There's a ton more reasons, but its much more complicated than what you think. Let's be real, these people are straight up getting exploited, their pennies on the dollar wages are not going to lift them out of poverty.

Oh I'm sure anyone would outsource labor when they can. This is the only way for countries like India to say afloat is through massive foreign direct investments. BUT, we're not talking so much about wage as about the shitty conditions of employment. How much would it cost to just outfit them with some respirators, or maybe a forklift here and there? Proper training on dealing with hazardous materials? Hard hats? Hell a fucking working shower! The thing is the wage they're getting while I'm sure it's low to us (and them) it's not probably abysmally low and survivable in India.
While there will be a few extra costs in the short run, in the long run, the laborer's marginal product will improve due to the better working conditions, meaning they'd be more productive. There will also be less people falling ill and dying all the time so the marginal product of capital will increase since there will be people around to man the machines and so the capital owners will gain. You don't have to pay them 1st world wages, just give them some necessities to increase their life spans.

Sorry, but there is a significant difference.
Purchasing products without launching an international research project and investigation into the origins of the product to find out if it was made in an un-ethical way is not the same as directly exposing workers to unnecessary hazards and show a complete lack of emotions.

One can argue that purchasing (for the sake of example) XXX shoes contributes to the problem of sweat shops, and I would agree with that viewpoint. However it is clearly unreasonable and impossible to avoid these products today from globalization. Ask any consumer for their options of sweat shops and you will be barraged with negative comments and hexes. Then ask them if they are willing to pay X4 more for an ethical product, you will be met with slight hesitation and a final answer of a reluctant no.

Then we all come to a stark realization that everyone is out for themselves. The question is: Where do we draw the line? Where is the defining point where maximization of profits and saving that extra few bucks worth harming people over?

Money is color blind and in this case, I think money has blinded the owners of the company from seeing what the right thing to do is. There is nothing wrong with the firm making profits, that’s what they’re there to do and they owe it to their shareholders to do that.

What strikes me stupid is they are unable to see the positives and benefits simple things like safety equipment can bring. Would it really hurt their bottom line THAT much to provide them with say... oh I donno, 10 bucks worth of helmets and another 20 in welding goggles? Probably not, but a complete lack of compassion or even bare minimum accommodations is less than disgusting.

I guess it’s this stuff that keeps the yachts in the mariner and fresh wax on the sports cars, but I would make me sick to think they were paid for at the cost of someone’s well being. Some people are thick as a god damn redwood while others flat out don’t care.

This kind of stuff happens every day, all across this little blue dot run by people who have a broken moral compass. With the “green” movements going on these days, I think the iceberg is about to flip over and dump all these people out of hiding – soon, I hope.

It’s one complicated monster.
:(

After viewing this video, one thing's for sure:

I'm never going to pay this company to recycle MY fleet of ships. Hmpf!

I personally don't see a significant difference and see it in the same light. For example, the Nike debacle was only a problem after people found out about the horrid conditions..etc. Chances these companies may or may not know of the happenings. I haven't watched any other documentaries, so you can correct me otherwise and I'll be happy to be wrong. Regardless issues like this are best played with the ignorance card.

Unfortunately, that's too bad then. There are absolutely many ways one can change their purchasing/consumption behaviours to reach the goal of minimizing purchases that support 3rd world labourers. If you think otherwise, you're clearly lying to yourself so you don't have to make your life hard. Think of it as a trade off. I frankly don't care too much and I think these people being employed is a great thing for previously stated reasons. Their hard works makes my life more comfortable.

Totally agree here.

I also agree here. Although I would absolutely be first in line to profit from their work, pending the monetary benefits, re-investment into bringing up working standards isn't something I would scoff at. Although I didn't say it in my original post, I did type it but deleted it later. It really is just part of economic revolution of labour. FDI = higher wages given enough time but also better working conditions (factored into wages/benefits..etc).

ttt

We both worked the same job when this happened. In fact, you were there when it happened. You weren't at the scene. but you saw the aftermath 20 minutes after it happened. In a small warehouse. with 5 people. 20 Minutes. In a warehouse that ever only had 15 people working at a time. I remembered that I had to work my ass off just to get noticed enough to hook you up with the job. All for what? A dollar more an hour?

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photo...92761_5662.jpg

I had to pull myself out of that Forklift. Guess I had it coming though.


We live in a First world country. We have WCB and insurance to back us up if shit happened in a Labour job right?

Wrong.

Where are you now, and where am I now in our lives?
You're working, making money, with the option to go back to school to make more. I had to start from scratch all over again because of this shit. WCB Claims are just as bad as the Caste system. You're thrown into a class, and you're stuck there. You have an injury, and you'll never be expected of any responsibilities. Sounds Easy. No. Employers just wont hire you once they find out you had a WCB claim for an injury that was't even properly compensated for.


Yeah, we probably saw this shit coming when we took warehousing jobs, but we played it safe.
The difference is, you don't know the life after the injury. The shit I had to go through during, and after. I lost my position at a job I was fucking GREAT at, because they found out about my injury. I was Promoted, promised a raise, then I was suddenly demoted and they ignored the talk about a raise. Shortly after. I had my shifts cut, to 8 hours a week, from a full time job. In less than 2 weeks.

THIS IS IN A FIRST WORLD COUNTRY If shit like this happened to me anywhere else, I'd understand. But don't even bother coming in here talking some shit about how they could've slummed the same shit with a different excuse somewhere else.

You jumped ship at Superstore, for a Dollar more. You totally understand this concept.

I'm missing more than half of my Bicep and my entire Brachialis. Guess that Tradeoff was worth my entire life.

But I Should've saw that coming right?