NSA whistle blowers ... use surveillance to ‘see into your life'

[Culverin]

NSA whistle blowers warn that the US government can use surveillance to 'see into your life' - Viewpoint with Eliot Spitzer // Current TV




Watch the vid.

[bballguy]

I don't see what the big deal is; If one isn't doing anything illegal, then why would one care that the government can see what he or she is doing....frankly, I highly doubt the government cares either, so long as you aren't doing anything wrong...It's not as though the individuals monitoring this shit actually personally know you...

[Iceman-19]

^ you are retarded. You think it's fine random people can know any intimate detail of your life? Go live on a street corner then, and answer any question that is asked of you truthfully.

[bballguy]

Originally Posted by Iceman-19

^ you are retarded. You think it's fine random people can know any intimate detail of your life? Go live on a street corner then, and answer any question that is asked of you truthfully.

Why is it a big deal? If it's done for surveillance purposes, I don't see what the big deal is. So what if the government can see what I may doing on my computer/what e-mails I am sending and receiving. Also, just because someone does not share the same views and opinions as you, does not make them "retarded." Moreover, calling someone "retarded" in a derogatory manner is highly offensive to those who are mentally disabled/handicapped...

Again, I might simply be misinformed on the subject, which is why I am asking 'why is it a big deal?'

[Hurricane]

Originally Posted by bballguy

Why is it a big deal? If it's done for surveillance purposes, I don't see what the big deal is. So what if the government can see what I may doing on my computer/what e-mails I am sending and receiving. Also, just because someone does not share the same views and opinions as you, does not make them "retarded." Moreover, calling someone "retarded" in a derogatory manner is highly offensive to those who are mentally disabled/handicapped...

Again, I might simply be misinformed on the subject, which is why I am asking 'why is it a big deal?'

Calling you retarded is offensive to retarded people, because it implies you are capable of a similar thought process, of which, clearly you are not.

If you are a nobody, and always will be, and you live a boring sheltered life (with a capital S) maybe it doesn't bother you. But many of us, enjoy discretion, our private lives, and the freedom of choice.

If you want to live in a glass house with a projector playing your inner thoughts on the front lawn for those walking by, by all means - but don't assume everyone does.

[bballguy]

Originally Posted by Hurricane

If you want to live with a projector playing your inner thoughts on the front lawn for those walking by, by all means - but don't assume everyone does.

If I did that, would you care to read my inner thoughts? I highly doubt it, and I highly doubt it even more if you had the ability to read everybody's inner thoughts. In this case, you'd only bother reading the thoughts of those who gave you reason to be suspicious of them...

Again, this is just my opinion. I have no problem with others respectfully disagreeing. I didn't ASSUME that everybody felt the same way as me, but simply said that I, myself, don't see it as being a big deal. - in fact, if it works and could help prevent future crime, then I'd not only be okay with it, but would think it's a great success.

[2 n r]

this is scary stuff..

[bloodline129]

And to think about a guy committed suicide cause his roommate posted a vid of him being gay....

[FerrariEnzo]

Originally Posted by bballguy

Why is it a big deal? If it's done for surveillance purposes, I don't see what the big deal is. So what if the government can see what I may doing on my computer/what e-mails I am sending and receiving. Also, just because someone does not share the same views and opinions as you, does not make them "retarded." Moreover, calling someone "retarded" in a derogatory manner is highly offensive to those who are mentally disabled/handicapped...

Again, I might simply be misinformed on the subject, which is why I am asking 'why is it a big deal?'

so your ok with people reading private emails or listening to your 1-900 #'s??

[Gridlock]

You know, one of the most disturbing things I read is about new "super-surveilance" and people saying, "if you aren't doing anything wrong, it doesn't matter".

This is more US, but if they do it, I'm sure Canada is right behind them. Let me tell you, in my mind, WHY it matters:

1. It's a free fucking country, well, at least its supposed to be.
2. Elected representatives that supposedly work for us are making deals in back rooms to effectively deny rights to those that employ them. Oh, that's right, the people don't employ them anymore.
3. My definition of "not doing anything wrong" is different than yours. We can still both be legal under the law, as the law is open to interpretation.
4. In a time of civil unrest, all this shit would be used against the people. The gov't would quite quickly break, or create law or supersede all with martial law to use this to their benefit. That may be good if you want the gov't to survive, but bad if you want it to fall.
5. It's creepy as fuck.
6. It's never going to work. The only safe state is a full police state.
7. It goes against everything that the US was fought for to create in the first place.

God, I can continue indefinitely. In the US in particular, it's a paranoid culture based on perceived freedoms but basically fear and you can sell anything to the citizens based on 'security'.

[Lomac]

The thing most people don't think about is that virtually every government in every country in the world in probably all of known history has spied on its own subjects. Usually it's for innocent reasons, though sometimes it's for much more (ethnic cleansings, etc). The fact is that this is nothing new. The only thing new is the technology used to spy on people.

Personally, I could care less. If they want to spy on me, they'll find that I lead a relatively boring life (I don't even smoke weed). Hell, even if they want to record me having sex with my girlfriend, I'm cool with that. I'm a bit of a voyeur, anyway. If they want to read my text messages, view my emails, scan my mail, rummage through my dresser, etc., they are more than welcome to. I fall under the "I'm not doing anything wrong, so I don't care" camp. Yes, you may feel differently, but I'm personally okay with it.

People like to state that this infringes on their "rights." Well, if people actually read through the constitution and all the ammendments, they'll realize that there are dozens of clauses or vaguely worded sections that basically allow for things like this.

[Sid Vicious]

Originally Posted by bballguy

If I did that, would you care to read my inner thoughts? I highly doubt it, and I highly doubt it even more if you had the ability to read everybody's inner thoughts. In this case, you'd only bother reading the thoughts of those who gave you reason to be suspicious of them...

Again, this is just my opinion. I have no problem with others respectfully disagreeing. I didn't ASSUME that everybody felt the same way as me, but simply said that I, myself, don't see it as being a big deal. - in fact, if it works and could help prevent future crime, then I'd not only be okay with it, but would think it's a great success.

you are perhaps the biggest tool i have ever met.

"i don't have anything to hide...so you can violate my or someone else's civil liberties at will!"

you should be forcibly located to north korea or china, that seems like the only place where someone like you would belong

[jimmyrustler]

Originally Posted by bballguy

If I did that, would you care to read my inner thoughts? I highly doubt it, and I highly doubt it even more if you had the ability to read everybody's inner thoughts. In this case, you'd only bother reading the thoughts of those who gave you reason to be suspicious of them...

Again, this is just my opinion. I have no problem with others respectfully disagreeing. I didn't ASSUME that everybody felt the same way as me, but simply said that I, myself, don't see it as being a big deal. - in fact, if it works and could help prevent future crime, then I'd not only be okay with it, but would think it's a great success.

[bballguy]

lol @ people laughing at me and calling me 'retarded' and 'tool'....Lomac basically said the exact same thing as me, or at least we both fall under the camp of "I'm not doing anything wrong, so I don't care." I guess I'm not the only one who feels this way, and being a head mod, I'd assume Lomac is a pretty respected individual in the RS community, so I'd love to see how many of you send the same attack his way calling HIM 'retarded' and a 'tool'...

Originally Posted by FerrariEnzo

so your ok with people reading private emails or listening to your 1-900 #'s??

If it's people working for the government for surveillance, sure, I have no problem...

[El Bastardo]

Originally Posted by bballguy

If I did that, would you care to read my inner thoughts? I highly doubt it, and I highly doubt it even more if you had the ability to read everybody's inner thoughts. In this case, you'd only bother reading the thoughts of those who gave you reason to be suspicious of them...

Again, this is just my opinion. I have no problem with others respectfully disagreeing. I didn't ASSUME that everybody felt the same way as me, but simply said that I, myself, don't see it as being a big deal. - in fact, if it works and could help prevent future crime, then I'd not only be okay with it, but would think it's a great success.

In World War II when the Nazis occupied the Netherlands they found that the Dutch kept excellent records.

There's nothing wrong with excellent record keeping. It makes everyone's jobs easier, and cuts down on bureaucracy, and creates good demographic data for census keeping.

But when the Nazis looked through the records and found that the Dutch had already kept the names and addresses of families categorized under "Jewish" their job was made that much easier.

Certainly the Netherlands government didn't think that one day their own efficient record keeping of such an inconsequential thing like race or religion would come back to harm them, especially since they ran their own sovereign nation where being Jewish was as normal as being a Lutheran or a Presbyterian.

The unanticipated consequences of these actions led people to realize that giving the government too much access to their lives could come to cause them harm and decided to become more private than they had before.

In the 1920s when a man told his government every facet and detail about his life he had no idea that he could expect something sinister to come of it, but in 1940 when the invasion happened, it became all too clear.


The point is, just because you don't think that showing the government how you live your life is any big deal now, doesn't mean it won't turn out to be. And just because you think you're a part of "acceptable" society right now in 2012, doesn't mean you will still be in 2032.

[bballguy]

Originally Posted by El Bastardo

In World War II when the Nazis occupied the Netherlands they found that the Dutch kept excellent records.

There's nothing wrong with excellent record keeping. It makes everyone's jobs easier, and cuts down on bureaucracy, and creates good demographic data for census keeping.

But when the Nazis looked through the records and found that the Dutch had already kept the names and addresses of families categorized under "Jewish" their job was made that much easier.

Certainly the Netherlands government didn't think that one day their own efficient record keeping of such an inconsequential thing like race or religion would come back to harm them, especially since they ran their own sovereign nation where being Jewish was as normal as being a Lutheran or a Presbyterian.

The unanticipated consequences of these actions led people to realize that giving the government too much access to their lives could come to cause them harm and decided to become more private than they had before.

In the 1920s when a man told his government every facet and detail about his life he had no idea that he could expect something sinister to come of it, but in 1940 when the invasion happened, it became all too clear.


The point is, just because you don't think that showing the government how you live your life is any big deal now, doesn't mean it won't turn out to be. And just because you think you're a part of "acceptable" society right now in 2012, doesn't mean you will still be in 2032.

Solid argument, but I don't think it's a completely fair one. I see that being the equivalent of saying that I shouldn't allow my brother to take pictures of me, because who knows if some day someone will break into his house, see the photos, see that I'm Jewish, and go on a Jewish-killing rampage....

Yes, I know it has happened in the past, but that point seems a little far-fetched in my opinion...

[El Bastardo]

Originally Posted by bballguy

Yes, I know it has happened in the past, but that point seems a little far-fetched in my opinion...

bballguy.

Enjoys pornography. Possible sexual deviant.
45% of the pornography he enjoys is lesbian pornography. Possible homosexual sympathizer.

Downloaded an album. Software pirate. Shows a willingness to break the law. Possible genetic predisposition. His parents and children could be lawbreakers as well.
Album features Kanye West. Kanye has spoken out against the government. bballguy obviously believes in Kanye's message therefore bballguy could possibly be a future dissident.

Spends his time watching television. His desire for information could mean that he is a free-thinker and is unwilling to accept things at face value.

Drives a red car. Psychology suggests that the colour red shows a desire to 'stand out' or 'be unique'.

bballguy should be observed for further possible threat to the system.

[Shorn]

Originally Posted by bballguy

I don't see what the big deal is; If one isn't doing anything illegal, then why would one care that the government can see what he or she is doing....frankly, I highly doubt the government cares either, so long as you aren't doing anything wrong...It's not as though the individuals monitoring this shit actually personally know you...

this is not a question of whether you are doing anything wrong.

bballguy: how would you like it if every time a cop saw you, he could bend you over and take a look up your asshole to see if you're hiding drugs up there?

"but i'm not doing anything wrong!" you say. so that's fine to you? you would not mind someone taking a look at things that you consider private?

and yes, this cop doesn't know you personally. he doesn't really care. he's just doing his job. you would be fine with that then?

yeah only the bad guys should fear this, because they're the ones with drugs up their asses and are afraid to show it. but it makes no sense to have everyone show their asses to the police at the same time too.

you are the problem with the US and why they are becoming like this. yes, the government is pushing for more invasive privacy laws, but without the citizens who bend over and take it up the ass cause 'they're not doing anything wrong', well, you're the ones that are empowering them to take over your life.


BTW- i am curious, would you be willing to live in an Orwellian police state? and honestly have no problems with it whatsoever?

[MarkyMark]

Would definitely not be cool with this, and I think this is something that would actually get people off their ass to fight over.

[urrh]

Originally Posted by bballguy

Yes, I know it has happened in the past, but that point seems a little far-fetched in my opinion...

far fetched isn't the point. those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

[Shorn]

"A party member lives from birth to death under the eye of the thought police. Even when he is alone he can never be sure that he is alone. wherever he may be, asleep or awake, working or resting, in his bath or in bed, he can be inspected without warning and without knowing that he is being inspected. nothing that he does is indifferent. His friendships, his relaxations, his behavior towards his wife and children, the expression of his face when he is alone, words muttered in sleep, even the characteristic movements of his body, are all jealously scrutinized."

- Orwell, Nineteen Eighty Four

[Lomac]

Originally Posted by El Bastardo

In World War II when the Nazis occupied the Netherlands they found that the Dutch kept excellent records.

There's nothing wrong with excellent record keeping. It makes everyone's jobs easier, and cuts down on bureaucracy, and creates good demographic data for census keeping.

But when the Nazis looked through the records and found that the Dutch had already kept the names and addresses of families categorized under "Jewish" their job was made that much easier.

Certainly the Netherlands government didn't think that one day their own efficient record keeping of such an inconsequential thing like race or religion would come back to harm them, especially since they ran their own sovereign nation where being Jewish was as normal as being a Lutheran or a Presbyterian.

The unanticipated consequences of these actions led people to realize that giving the government too much access to their lives could come to cause them harm and decided to become more private than they had before.

In the 1920s when a man told his government every facet and detail about his life he had no idea that he could expect something sinister to come of it, but in 1940 when the invasion happened, it became all too clear.


The point is, just because you don't think that showing the government how you live your life is any big deal now, doesn't mean it won't turn out to be. And just because you think you're a part of "acceptable" society right now in 2012, doesn't mean you will still be in 2032.

Let's be honest here. A good chunk of people crying foul at the government spying on them are probably the same people who will post their every thought and every moment onto their Facebook or Twitter account. They're probably the same people who don't give a second thought to filling out form after form with their personal information when signing up for a website. No, not everyone is like this, but I have no doubt many are.

As I was saying before, virtually every government to exist has spied on their people. The only difference now is that everything is electronic and has made it easier than ever to do so. It's simply that the media is now reporting more and more about it than before.

[El Bastardo]

Originally Posted by Lomac

As I was saying before, virtually every government to exist has spied on their people. The only difference now is that everything is electronic and has made it easier than ever to do so. It's simply that the media is now reporting more and more about it than before.

This is true, but its an issue of compliance. If a person is a willing participant in demographics gathering, that's one thing. Its quite another for a person to be ready to allow their entire life to be under scrutiny, up to and including their workplace bathroom schedule (better adjust your diet, not enough fibre).

Willingness to participate is indicative of a compliant citizen (a cog in the machine, if you will) and is favorable to a government willing to sell you on their particular brand of kool aid.

Parm101 has accused me, in the past, of being a "participant" because I have an opinion that differs than his own. Its obnoxious. I won't do the same to you.


I'll just appeal to your objective reasoning to tell you that the reason that this surveillance continues to exist is because those who want this information don't have enough to feel 'safe' with the amount of information that they already have, and need to gather more in order to operate with impunity.

Its fine to volunteer what you'd like to volunteer, but don't be so optimistic in interpreting their desires for this information. "I'm not a terrorist so I have nothing to fear" isn't a valid statement to make in 2012, especially since this sort of thing happened in a pre-9/11 world.

[parm104]

Originally Posted by El Bastardo

Parm101 has accused me, in the past, of being a "participant" because I have an opinion that differs than his own. Its obnoxious. I won't do the same to you.

Parm101? When did he accuse you of being a participant? In what context...?

[bballguy]

Oh shi-....