Described in the context that you mentioned, the two countries undeniably share a number of similarities. But again, the severity of the persecution isn't even remotely the same. In the US, procedural justice is alive and well (for the most part). The separation of power is there to protect its citizens. If the US administration wants to "hunt down" Snowden, they need to go through the proper channels to have him arrest / expedited back to the US, where he will be tried and given a chance to defend himself. The outcome of the trial depends on the trial, and administration can only do what they can to present the evidence to proof Snowden guilty -- the court system will independently determine the verdict.

In China, on the other hand, the government doesn't need to follow any due process at all. They can have you arrested without a warrant. They can put you on house arrest for simply being an activist's wife. They can make up some sort of financial crime and claim you guilty of it simply because you are a relative of an activist. They can put you on house arrest and completely cut you off from communicating to the rest of the world because your long dead son participated in the Tienanmen protests back in 1989. The court system is completely controlled by the Party, where the top judge at each court reports to a party secretary, and your verdict is determined before trial has even begun.

Say all you want about how bad the US is. There are slight similarities in theory between the US and China. But in reality, those theoretical similarities hardly amount to any real practical ones at all.

'MURICA.

How Government Uses Terror Attacks To Their Advantage : Freedom Outpost

“Every nation in every region now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.”
– George W. Bush, Sept. 20, 2001

Guess Hong Kong is in there bad books now.... :D

i don't think so.

they only have to because now the world is watching. if the world wasn't watching, they wouldn't have to.

I wouldn't be so pro north american and believe the bullshit they feed you.

due process? i dont think so.


In china they'll just fucking do it, due process or not.

In the USA they'll fucking do it, and the due process will be manipulated to side with them. The difference is one is a show, a facade. It's not real.

The outcome is already known.

^^ I totally agree. There's an illusion that there's due process, that they give everyone a fair trial. Meanwhile, they just detain people at Guantanamo Bay for years. The US government is by far the most ruthless.

I won't call myself pro N.America, but I am neither as skeptical nor as cynical as you are. I still have some faith in the system.

You have faith in the system because you are on the right side of the system. Anyone who has ever gotten on the wrong side of the system for whatever reason will know that things aren't so black and white.

Let's be honest, government tracking and information gathering will only get worse. I think governments are looking to emulate the Chinese style of government, authoritarian-free market ideology.

Westerners aren't going to rise up and have an "arab spring" everyone is distracted with "bread and circuses" --Sports teams, hollywood, ipods, tv shows, mortgage, dinner parties, bars, etc.

Once the population can't afford to distract themselves with anything THEN we'll start to see unrest.

So what? What are you going to do about it? Let me guess, absolutely nothing right?


No. Not because we're distracted, but because when you look past the fake sexiness in these faux revolutionary facades, nothing really has changed; nothing really has been taken from you.

You can still use your facebook. You can still use google. You can still watch your porn (no matter how demented it is other than kiddie porn). You can still go and travel anywhere imaginable within your own country without the requirement of permits and authorization. You can still demonstrate, you can still speak out against your government.

You will not do anything because other than being watched, nothing really has been taken from you. Start taking things away from people, start banning facebook, limit people liberties, limit what can or cannot be published, limit the place where people can go within their country... that's when you'll start seeing unrest...

lol... the problem with humanity is easily seen in this thread.

it becomes a we vs them thing.

in reality, the whole earth is we.


instead of separating culture and nationality, look at the whole world as your home.

we live in vancouver. some west siders might be more snobby and you'd never get hassled by the cops there, and the east side maybe more ghetto and cops might harass you more.

you can just expand that idea to the whole world.

most people don't get the concept because they only live in one place and they travel a handful of times in their lives and think they know the world lol.

China... USA... canada. all the fucking same.

instead of a 30min car drive away to another town, i just take a 12 hour flight.

being subject to different cultures is just a flight away. for people that don't fly around a lot, they feel there is a border, they feel that where they live is their home.

but in actuality, its no different than someone that's never left the east side, criticizing the west side.

home is everywhere. we are humans.

u wanna smoke weed and u like to do outdoorsy shit, then stay here and do that.

when u feel like throwing money around and paying ppl off and doing whatever u want, move some where else.

if you don't have the option to do that, it just means u don't have the money. and u don't really know what it's like.

if you don't have the option to do it, you cannot criticize it.


it's like someone that owns a corolla and says they don't need a ferrari. bitch, you don't even have the money to get a ferrari. it's not an option for you.

you can really only criticize things that are WITHIN your options.

"i like to stay home instead of going out to loud parties"
how many times have u heard that? lol those people couldnt go out to loud parties even if they wanted to. they have no friends, they have no hookups, they wouldnt even know where the party is. they don't have the option to even if they wanted to.

you wouldn't take advice from them about what to do.

so why would u listen to people that have never lived in both countries?
most people have no idea what they're talking about.

they just cling onto some ideal, some culture they were BORN INTO (they have no choice), and identify with that. and they have no idea what happens outside of their little bubble other than reading it on the net and making something up in their minds.


"china sucks i'd never go there, im happy here" bitch please. you couldn't go to china if you wanted to.

this wasn't directed at anyone. i just had to say it.


The usa is smart. they know they have to keep the people (the dogs) happy. as long as the tails are wagging they can continue to do whatever they want. once the tail stops wagging they just gotta distract the public with some treats.

as long as there's cheap tastey food, just keep feeding the fat fucks and they'll stay happy.
don't be sad that we're spying on you awwww, its okay, shut the fuck up, here have a fat burger instead. just keep eating. lol.

I'm just kidding. but anyway u guys get what i mean.



The USA is just as bad as anywhere else. it's only not bad on the surface. like $_$ said... you can't criticize till you've been on the wrong side of the law.
otherwise you're just living in your happy safe bubble. you don't really know what it's like.

I think you presume that I care about the surveillance. I'm apathetic.

Btw, demonstrations and speaking out against the US government is slowly being restricted as well.

here's an idea...

what if you protest against a government in another country?

Don't just stop there.

Restricted to what?


Right now, what happens if you form a rally? What happens if you publish a negative blog about Obama?

I'm curious as to what you're trying to drive at.

I don't know if you got my point from my post, but the gist is:

Concerns about the NSA and the government aren't really going to change the policy because the populace is fairly well off and have plenty of distractions to keep them from actively doing anything about it (there's obviously a small percentage that are active in trying to drive policy change)

I don't care about the surveillance, I'm guilty of that. I think the world is changing and democracy and freedoms that come along with it are changing as well. The population compared to a 100 years ago coupled with the ability to share information instantaneously (especially with nefarious purposes) is helping push for change.

There's nothing wrong with surveillance. We are getting monitored everywhere we go, in public. On most levels, anybody that's not an idiot knows that the internet is constantly getting monitored.

The problem with what the NSA and the US government is doing today is they are doing everything in secret. Nobody would have been able to confirm exactly the way the government is monitoring and recording what the populace is doing if it hadn't been for Snowden coming out: that was the difference between him and a nutjob conspiracy theorist like CiC. They didn't allow the public to decide whether the benefits of Nation/World wide surveillance outweighed the costs of personal liberty. A small group of people in the government decided that they could do whatever the fuck they want however they wanted.

Couple that with the fact that anybody could be turned into a bad person by taking bits and pieces out of their lives. That's like putting a speedometer trap on your car, so that every time you went over the posted speed limit you would get a ticket. Now how fucked up would that be? How easy would that be to implement?

Piss off someone? Pull up your file and nail you on everything you've ever done. Anti- something? Here's evidence of you doing some stupid youthful shit to ruin you from your PRIVATE LIFE. There's just so many things that could go wrong with this.

People in the states or around the world that don't give a shit about any of this or don't think it's a big deal because really, they haven't experienced anywhere else. They don't know what it's like. You see how Hong Kong reacted when Snowden landed? How they started doing protests right away to raise awareness? Because they are so close to getting swallowed by the Chinese Government and they know the dangers of Government Surveillance programs.

What they are doing now and how they are doing it is a huge slippery slope in the ways they are granting themselves power. It always starts with surveillance and graduates into censorship. Then more, and more.

And if you trust the Western Government and the people that run it that much, that's fine too. Just don't call how they are doing things democratic.

I think this is all a transition into something bigger. People are just uncomfortable with being tracked, and the government(s) do a bad job of managing it and using it for their own advantage.

In the nearish future, I think everything will be tracked. you, your pet, your building, your car, street lights, anything a microchip can be put into... will be tracked. in any "leading" city, all statistics will be live and you can pull it up instantly and request and query and it will give it to you right away.

this is just a transition. it looks totalitarian and all evil... but it will grow into something much bigger than this.

but as our generation dies, the next generation will be more accepting. and so on so forth. till it is something completely normal. you're born into observance. you're born a cell. the body controls the cell.

the body cannot function at optimal capacity unless cells are controlled.

privacy will be a foreign concept in the future.

wanting privacy, will be considered cancerous.

you are but a cell in a body. cells that don't obey will be seeked out and destroyed.

it's just a really rough transition. like teenage angst. once our puny minds get over this whole privacy thing (or more like the old die off and let go of the old ways), something great will be born.

unity, has no room for privacy.

Always the optimist :P. And you are probably right, maybe in the long run. But I feel like it's going to get much, much worse before it gets better.

probably, and if it is necessary, then it must be done.

a few generations giving up some egotistical desires so that the future may have many many more happier generations... sounds like a deal to me.

I can't get over the fact that it is now clearly stated and shown that the technological power of such a system of databases exists and is used. It boggles the mind of just how much data is swept and stored.

And even more, the only thing now that prevents such a system from being used to its full power is the will of man.

Think about it. The only thing that keeps it from being a police state the likes of which has never been seen, is the will of man.

Saw this in another RS Thread:

RCMP in BC - RCMP Arrests Two Individuals for Terrorism-related Charges

and this particular line caught my eye:

With the CSIS being a national agency, I wonder if they have engaged in any sort of surveillance programs that a lot of RS-ers have repeatedly denounced in this thread in order to come up with the intel to catch the 2 alleged terrorists?

This pretty much sums up this whole debate.
Yes. The U.S. got caught. A slap in the hand to the U.S. goverment and move on.

Next is to explain to the public why you need this.

Example #1 for the Canadians in the West.

"Two Canadian-born citizens have been arrested in what the RCMP described as Al Qaeda-inspired plot to blow up the British Columbia legislature on Canada Day"

anyone else feel that this whole thing has been planned? It sounds like to me, someone decided to send this guy out there "leaking" information about spying on other countries, such as China. Obviously China will get curious and have to investigate. They will also demand answers. Then the US will tell China to screw off and then we have a new "Cold War" on our hands... I don't believe in poeple doing things for the "right" reasons anymore, unlike Mr. Snowden is claiming. There is another reason for him doing all of this....
On another note, why did he pick Moscow to travel to from Hong Kong, out of all places he could have gone? Was he hoping the Russians would gladly take him in exchange for all his secrets? If the Russians did that, the US would have to retaliate...

Gotta look outside the box at all of this, I feel like Snowden is just a puppet.

The Al-Queda thing is getting old now. The US Government needs a new excuse to continue increasing their military budget every year. Did anyone else get curious about the Boston bombers being "Russian". They were portayed all over the news as "Russian" terrorists, hoping to turn the American public against Russia once again. That didn't seem to work, so now there's this Snowden guy running around trying to start a pissing match between two superpowers, doesn't really matter which one, China, Russia, etc...

The whole thing stinks.

1. We have a bunch of people running around(well, mostly online...and reddit really where I see it) that are quite ready to make him a martyr(right up with Manning) like he has told us something we don't know.

We knew this right? He just spelled it out a bit, from 'assume' to 'fuck yeah' ?

2. Get ready to be "Assanged". Can't use sexual deviancy again, it would be too soon. Something will come up. I suspect they'll just pound home the traitor angle on his interactions with China and Russia, and bonus points on anyone that can link in Venezuela.

3. What he did WAS and IS illegal. He knew this at the start. So to say that he should just be let off is NOT going to happen, especially when the government he leaked about is the government in charge of finding/trying/committing him.

And I still contend that the only thing that he released is the details of the spying on American citizens, meaning that they collect whatever the hell they want on the rest of the world, and that was, and is and always will be cool in their eyes, and THAT should be the fucking problem.

^^

What the US is doing could also be considered an act of war. But it's clearly obvious Snowden is 100% wrong according to the Western media.

While I do agree he knew of the dire consequences he would receive if he went up against the American empire, it still does not change the fact that the American empire is violating not just the constitution, but international laws. This is not simply whether if he was guilty of being a traitor or a hero, it brought light to the subject that America is monitoring the entire world using cold war tactics. We don't know what they are doing with the data they gather, the political leaders and senate are dodging any questions regarding the NSA.

Pretty much America is in a fashion turning the world against them, the Bolivian presidents plane was forced to land and was searched because of info that snowden might be on it. I don't believe they had a right to force a plane to land in international airspace that doesn't belong to them, correct me if I'm mistaken. America is also blackmailing a few countries with economic sanctions if they offer Snowden asylum. This alone is pathetic in my opinion.

Last time I checked blocking a refugee/asylum status request is a violation of humanitarian rights according to international laws.

But we all know America is exempt from anything so go figure.


Edit:

Edward Snowden gets an award :lawl:

Edward Snowden Given Sam Adams Award for Integrity in Intelligence | PopularResistance.Org

Even former CIA employees love the guy :thumbs: