E85 Coming to a gas station in Vancouver, BC Canada

[wankeldude2]

I usually post as wankeldude, but for whatever reason it's not letting me post or even send a PM using that account. I joined in 2005 and I'm sure it's just a glitch of some sort... So until I get that rectified, here's my post:

I have a very serious business opportunity to purchase a gas station in the Lower Mainland and wanted to conduct a survey to see what people in the area thought about being able to get E85 fuel out of a gas station pump without having to cross the border or buy drums or jerry cans. If you have a moment, please take some time to fill out this survey. It will help us solidify plans to bring in E85 to a gas station pump in the Greater Vancouver area.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Fuel_Survey_2014

Thanks for your time

[Ch28]

[wankeldude2]

lol. I'm really excited about this too (my flex fuel GT-R runs much better on E85) But really need folks to do the survey so the financial models make sense.

Thanks guys!

[godwin]

With Calgary / Bakkan fuel so much closer.. how are you going to undercut them with Ethanol? (typically find out in mid west eg Iowa etc). Not to mention Ethanol is primarily US product with the exchange rate not benefiting you, you must have some financial wizardry to make the model work.

[wankeldude2]

Originally Posted by godwin

With Calgary / Bakkan fuel so much closer.. how are you going to undercut them with Ethanol? (typically find out in mid west eg Iowa etc). Not to mention Ethanol is primarily US product with the exchange rate not benefiting you, you must have some financial wizardry to make the model work.

Very good points. We understand this is going to be a niche market strictly. I highly doubt any regular flex fuel cars will use it. But if enough folks with tuned vehicles do, it's enough to make it worthwhile.

And yes, it can be imported by tanker truck if you pay the right excise and federal taxes. Although Greenfield does have a local distribution point for fuel grade ethanol...so it's looking like the price point doesn't have to be silly to make sense for consumer and retailer

[Manic!]

My family has owned a gas station for 22 plus years and I have a few questions.

Were are you going to get E85? Non of the major brands Esso, Shell etc carry it. Being with a major brand helps.

Do you know how much it's going to cost to set up a new tank and pump for E85? It's not cheap.

What type of tanks does the gas station have? Steel, dual wall steel fibreglass or dual wall fibreglass. Also how old are they?

Do the pumps except chip and pin credit/debit cards? If not you will need new pumps. They are 25k each plus install.

How many litres of gas does it sell a year? It should be in the millions.

I would look at all the costs associated with selling E85 then figure out how many litres you would need to sell to make it worth your while. I'm thinking it would be around 400 to 500K a year in litres.


Edit:

Also what are you going to do I there is a problem with the fuel and cars have problems?

[Hehe]

Now we can finally see c-lais in Richmond with Ferrari FF and/or Koenigsegg CCXR maximizing their potential.

[murd0c]

What gas station are you looking to purchase?

Biggest concern is as Manic said would be have the dispensers been EMV upgraded, you can get EMV kits for the doors which are the same but Gilbarco is having major issues right now and once the warranty is up I sell a spot display to contractors for for $3100 each, EMV card reader $1100 each, EMV Keypad $2000 each in which the contractors mark up 35% plus labour to install these itesm

The tanks will be fine since there are no steel tanks in the lower mainland but you need to be concerned what kind of underground piping, how old the STP's are and the Veeder Root fuel monitoring with tank probes will need to be upgraded. If it's a ESSO does it have the new passport POS system?

For E85 there isn't enough need for it yet, it's a great idea but if you are not re-piping the whole site it will cost way too much cash in the long run to see a decent profit.

It's great to own a gas station since I work for the biggest distributor in Canada but out of anyone I know how much they cost

[meme405]

Next time try to contain yourself to one thread in one section.

http://www.revscene.net/forums/69480...bc-canada.html

Also we have a thread specifically for people who want others to do surveys:

http://www.revscene.net/forums/67733...ey-thread.html

But to answer your question; No I don't care at all for E85, and the only reason others would care at all is if it was significantly cheaper, and even then I doubt you will get it cheap enough that people would actually drive out of their way to go to your station.

[wankeldude2]

Originally Posted by murd0c

What gas station are you looking to purchase?

Biggest concern is as Manic said would be have the dispensers been EMV upgraded, you can get EMV kits for the doors which are the same but Gilbarco is having major issues right now and once the warranty is up I sell a spot display to contractors for for $3100 each, EMV card reader $1100 each, EMV Keypad $2000 each in which the contractors mark up 35% plus labour to install these itesm

The tanks will be fine since there are no steel tanks in the lower mainland but you need to be concerned what kind of underground piping, how old the STP's are and the Veeder Root fuel monitoring with tank probes will need to be upgraded. If it's a ESSO does it have the new passport POS system?

For E85 there isn't enough need for it yet, it's a great idea but if you are not re-piping the whole site it will cost way too much cash in the long run to see a decent profit.

It's great to own a gas station since I work for the biggest distributor in Canada but out of anyone I know how much they cost

PM incoming!

[wankeldude2]

Originally Posted by meme405

Next time try to contain yourself to one thread in one section.

http://www.revscene.net/forums/69480...bc-canada.html

Also we have a thread specifically for people who want others to do surveys:

http://www.revscene.net/forums/67733...ey-thread.html

But to answer your question; No I don't care at all for E85, and the only reason others would care at all is if it was significantly cheaper, and even then I doubt you will get it cheap enough that people would actually drive out of their way to go to your station.

Will do, thank you for the info. Yes you are absolutely right, it is going to be a very specific niche market and not a main stream product. I highly doubt we will see FlexFuel caravans coming in to fuel with with E85.

[murd0c]

Originally Posted by wankeldude2

PM incoming!

You should look into DEF more then E85 right now since it's mandatory on all diesel trucks and company's like Flying J and CO-OP are spending lots of money in the lower Fraser Valley since the margins are higher then any fuel currently.

[R. Mutt]

Originally Posted by meme405

[...] the only reason others would care at all is if it was significantly cheaper, and even then I doubt you will get it cheap enough that people would actually drive out of their way to go to your station.

Actually I know a lot of people in the tuning community who reside in Poco, Surrey, Langley, Richmond, Vancouver who would LOVE to have access to E85 at the pump.

The reality about the car scene in Vancouver is most people care about aesthetics - and nothing is wrong with that...to each his own. However, there are a lot of others, albeit quiet in terms of presence at meets and the forum, who spend a lot of money toward making power.

I can tell you as a fact that many Evo 8,9 and 10 owners would convert to E85 in a heartbeat given the detonation resistance and power potential of the fuel.Shit many of the Evo's that were brought in from the US were retuned because they were mapped for E85...as such the power went down for safety and motor longevity.

Many of us see what the cars are making in the US while we have to look at alternatives such as Methanol injection or straight race fuel. An evo making 350whp on pump gas can make 450-500whp by just switching to E85. Big turbo evos that make 500whp on pump are cracking out 700-800+ whp! If you look into the GT-R and Supra community it's the same story there...E85 FTW!

E85 requires an ethanol compatible fuel system - pump, much larger injectors and tuning but the power potential is amazing. RacingGreed has started bringing in barrels for some of their customers because people do want it.

I think it's good you're doing the survey though as it is likely a niche market but I can tell you that there are guys out there, such as myself, who are just begging for this to happen. The fact of the matter is the very guys who'd buy it probably don't even come on the forum, or lurk if they're here at all.

[meme405]

Originally Posted by R. Mutt

The fact of the matter is the very guys who'd buy it probably don't even come on the forum, or lurk if they're here at all.

You and 5 other guys spending $100 a week on E85 isn't going to get this guy anywhere.

He needs the general public to buy into the flex fuel trend, and since 99% of the fuel sales are to this general public and 99.9% of that general public doesn't give a rats ass about anything besides price, its a tough sell.

[meme405]

Also Anyone in Langley or Surrey/whiterock or anywhere close to the border could easily (and does) just hop over the border and pump gas.

Not only can they get E85 already over the border they also save 40 cents a litre.

[wankeldude2]

Originally Posted by R. Mutt

Actually I know a lot of people in the tuning community who reside in Poco, Surrey, Langley, Richmond, Vancouver who would LOVE to have access to E85 at the pump.

The reality about the car scene in Vancouver is most people care about aesthetics - and nothing is wrong with that...to each his own. However, there are a lot of others, albeit quiet in terms of presence at meets and the forum, who spend a lot of money toward making power.

I can tell you as a fact that many Evo 8,9 and 10 owners would convert to E85 in a heartbeat given the detonation resistance and power potential of the fuel.Shit many of the Evo's that were brought in from the US were retuned because they were mapped for E85...as such the power went down for safety and motor longevity.

Many of us see what the cars are making in the US while we have to look at alternatives such as Methanol injection or straight race fuel. An evo making 350whp on pump gas can make 450-500whp by just switching to E85. Big turbo evos that make 500whp on pump are cracking out 700-800+ whp! If you look into the GT-R and Supra community it's the same story there...E85 FTW!

E85 requires an ethanol compatible fuel system - pump, much larger injectors and tuning but the power potential is amazing. RacingGreed has started bringing in barrels for some of their customers because people do want it.

I think it's good you're doing the survey though as it is likely a niche market but I can tell you that there are guys out there, such as myself, who are just begging for this to happen. The fact of the matter is the very guys who'd buy it probably don't even come on the forum, or lurk if they're here at all.

thanks for the feedback. Definitely a specific niche market. I have posted on the evo forum. if you have any other suggestions please PM me.

[wankeldude2]

Originally Posted by meme405

You and 5 other guys spending $100 a week on E85 isn't going to get this guy anywhere.

He needs the general public to buy into the flex fuel trend, and since 99% of the fuel sales are to this general public and 99.9% of that general public doesn't give a rats ass about anything besides price, its a tough sell.

Based on our financial modeling, we do need a few hundred customers filling up twice a month with E85 to make it worth our while.

I myself have been travelling down to Marysville myself for the past year to get jerry cans of E85 brought back up. There are companies that sell drums as well, but I think nothing beats the convenience of simply being able to pump and go without the hassle of the border.

[wankeldude2]

Originally Posted by Manic!

My family has owned a gas station for 22 plus years and I have a few questions.

Were are you going to get E85? Non of the major brands Esso, Shell etc carry it. Being with a major brand helps.

Do you know how much it's going to cost to set up a new tank and pump for E85? It's not cheap.

What type of tanks does the gas station have? Steel, dual wall steel fibreglass or dual wall fibreglass. Also how old are they?

Do the pumps except chip and pin credit/debit cards? If not you will need new pumps. They are 25k each plus install.

How many litres of gas does it sell a year? It should be in the millions.

I would look at all the costs associated with selling E85 then figure out how many litres you would need to sell to make it worth your while. I'm thinking it would be around 400 to 500K a year in litres.


Edit:

Also what are you going to do I there is a problem with the fuel and cars have problems?

Thanks for the feedback and all very good questions. The tanks and pipes have already been replaced in the late 90's - double walled fiberglass and non-metal piping. The supply is currently being negotiated. There are suppliers in the states that can bring tankers up, but there is also the possibility of supply by local petroleum distributors getting ethanol portion from Greenfield.

We are analyzing the financial models and do believe this is a viable business plan, but are conducting the survey to get some idea of captive market and how much of that market we can capture.

[noclue]

Where exactly in the lower mainland is this business? If it's coquitlam, no one from central burnaby onward will be willing to drive out that far. Even if its in burnaby, people from richmond will rather take the highway to the USA.

From what I heard you need to sell at least 7million litres a year for a gas station + at least 100k monthly store sales to make decent money. But then the purchasing price will be high.

[R. Mutt]

You and 5 other guys spending $100 a week on E85 isn't going to get this guy anywhere.

He needs the general public to buy into the flex fuel trend, and since 99% of the fuel sales are to this general public and 99.9% of that general public doesn't give a rats ass about anything besides price, its a tough sell.

Yes I think it will be a tough sell to the average Joe but my assumption was the OP is already aware that he's aiming for a niche market. Likewise he said few hundred people filling up twice a month. Unlikely? Maybe in the beginning; impossible? No. If there's is only 1 place to get E85 at the pump then all the volume goes there...not so? I think that's why he came to RS in the first place...to gauge interest and I think the more performance oriented members would love to have E85 available.

There are many forced induction vehicles running on strictly pump gas (STIs, DSM, Talons, Evos, turbo civics, turbo.supercharged mustangs, RX7s, Golfs, Supras, GT-Rs - lots of RHD R32s and the big guys with their R35s as well) around that would benefit from switching. I'm missing a lot of the other forced induction vehicles but you get the idea. The same way some people drive out of their way to save $ and get better quality gas, is the same way some people will go out of their way in order to get E85...it's that good performance wise.

It is very easy for you to say that me and "five people" would like this, but I have seen enough crazy forced induction cars with owners in person in the short 4 years I have lived in Vancouver to know that RevScene isn't an accurate representation of the number of performance oriented vehicles out there. I am certainly not alone in wishing for something cheaper than race gas but better than chevron 94 and shell 91. Something that's safer and more reliable than methanol injection.

Likewise, it only takes a few guys in their club clusters to start converting and making great numbers on the dyno with E85 for others to decide they too want to follow suit. It is a car community after all and things happen in trends via word of mouth, internet et al. If you see someone with the same mods as you, and they're making 50-75 more whp then you'd probably do it too.

Originally Posted by meme405

Also Anyone in Langley or Surrey/whiterock or anywhere close to the border could easily (and does) just hop over the border and pump gas.

Not only can they get E85 already over the border they also save 40 cents a litre.

Valid point regarding the border as an option, but where are you getting your figures from if the OP has yet to figure out his price/liter?

In like manner, one could argue that people who run pump gas hop over the border because it exists as an option: petrol is available everywhere and therefore the option exists to put gas here or cross the border without the risk of running the tank empty.

People who strictly run E85 (IE Not flex fuel compatible) do one of two things:

1. Store it themselves
2. Have access to a station near home/work.

Let's say the average Joe decides to convert to E85 because he wants to make more power and options 1 and 2 do not exist, there is only one other possibility to my knowledge: dual map setup (Pump/E85). Outside of ECU reflashing on a handful of vehicles you'd have to run a standalone system like the AEM Infinity with flex fuel capabilities and I don't think that's an option for the average Joe. In this sense I like that he's doing the survey to see how far away potential customers are and how many of those potentials would be willing to drive to the location.

[godwin]

Since E85 doesn't play nice with plastic fuel system piping that had not been designed for it explicitly. You are limited to a market of cars that are post 2000. Most RHD, RX7 etc etc would need upgrades (basically upgrade to thinwall steel). The quandary is while you might see benefits of e85 in newer cars, to fully take advantage of it is more complicated needing remap etc.

It is a niche market for sure and OP might want to put it near Mission or nearby racetracks.

Originally Posted by R. Mutt

There are many forced induction vehicles running on strictly pump gas (STIs, DSM, Talons, Evos, turbo civics, turbo.supercharged mustangs, RX7s, Golfs, Supras, GT-Rs - lots of RHD R32s and the big guys with their R35s as well) around that would benefit from switching. I'm missing a lot of the other forced induction vehicles but you get the idea. The same way some people drive out of their way to save $ and get better quality gas, is the same way some people will go out of their way in order to get E85...it's that good performance wise.

[Manic!]

The more I think about the more it does not make financial sense. Gas stations on the mainland are making dick all on gas right now. I don't think many people will pay extra for E85. It's going to sell less that Premium or diesel.

Tanks are only good for 25 years. If they were replaced in the late 90's you will need to replace then in less than 10 years.

[R. Mutt]

Originally Posted by godwin

[...]You are limited to a market of cars that are post 2000. Most RHD, RX7 etc etc would need upgrades (basically upgrade to thinwall steel). The quandary is while you might see benefits of e85 in newer cars, to fully take advantage of it is more complicated needing remap etc.

A mkIV Supra is a pre 2000 car and many in the US use e85 and higher. Like I said before it requires an ethanol compatible fuel system. For most cars this will mean the pump, reg, rail, lines and injectors must be swapped. Many of these aftermarket parts are already ethanol compatible and I'd be willing to guess most turbo cars have have already upgraded at least one if not all those parts to aftermarket. The injectors are really upgraded because you need to flow a lot more fuel with ethanol.

As far as tuning...yes it does require remapping, but there are a number of shops that in both Vancouver and across the border than are more than capable of doing that...even remotely if the customer cannot come to them. Likewise if someone is self proficient the foundation of the remapping is a matter of re-scaling the injectors and latency tables for the new injectors and re-balancing your air:fuel ratios....that's it. Once the injectors are dialed in for partial throttle and idle you can move onto full throttle tuning and get your retarget appropriate AFRs for e85.

[murd0c]

Originally Posted by Manic!

The more I think about the more it does not make financial sense. Gas stations on the mainland are making dick all on gas right now. I don't think many people will pay extra for E85. It's going to sell less that Premium or diesel.

Tanks are only good for 25 years. If they were replaced in the late 90's you will need to replace then in less than 10 years.

You are incorrect about the tanks being only good for 25 years... They hydro test the older tanks and get passed by the engineers if there is a concern but most of the time you don't have to worry at all if they are fibreglass tanks since they are double wall and has a veeder root interstitial monitor on top of the normal tank probs.

I'm the Canadian supplier for ZCL tanks, Gilbarco, Franklin fueling so I know what I'm talking about.

[trollface]

Just sell it in 1L coke bottles.