[j0w]

just wondering if it's illegal to cover the VIN on your dashboard?

[p0lar]

how bout to change the vin on the dash?

[cdnav8r]

Originally posted by p0lar
how bout to change the vin on the dash?

illegal

[skidmark]

Section 354 C.C.

(2) In proceedings in respect of an offence under subsection (1), evidence that a person has in his possession a motor vehicle the vehicle identification number of which has been wholly or partially removed or obliterated or a part of a motor vehicle being a part bearing a vehicle identification number that has been wholly or partially removed or obliterated is, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, proof that the motor vehicle or part, as the case may be, was obtained, and that such person had the motor vehicle or part, as the case may be, in his possession knowing that it was obtained,

(a) by the commission in Canada of an offence punishable by indictment; or

(b) by an act or omission anywhere that, if it had occurred in Canada, would have constituted an offence punishable by indictment.

(3) For the purposes of subsection (2), "vehicle identification number" means any number or other mark placed on a motor vehicle for the purpose of distinguishing the motor vehicle from other similar motor vehicles.

From the MVA:

New vehicle identification numbers

16 (1) If, with respect to a motor vehicle or trailer, any of the following circumstances exist, the owner of the motor vehicle or trailer must immediately apply to the Insurance Corporation of British Columbia for a new vehicle identification number for the motor vehicle or trailer:

(a) the vehicle identification number on a motor vehicle or trailer has become illegible or has been removed or obliterated;

(b) a vehicle identification number is not the same as any other vehicle identification number on the motor vehicle or trailer;

(c) the motor vehicle or trailer does not have a vehicle identification number.

(2) On being satisfied that the applicant is the lawful owner of the motor vehicle or trailer, the Insurance Corporation of British Columbia may assign a new vehicle identification number to it, and the owner must then cause the number so assigned, with the initials "B.C." to indicate British Columbia, and the date of the assignment of the number to be applied by a method designated by the corporation on the part or parts of the motor vehicle or trailer designated by the corporation.

(3) If the Insurance Corporation of British Columbia is satisfied that a new vehicle identification number has been assigned to and applied to a motor vehicle or trailer under this section, the corporation must cause the new number to be inserted in the registration record and licence of the motor vehicle or trailer.


Not a good idea to mess around with VINs. Too much chance of being seriously inconvenienced.

[Cyclonus]

sorry to bump this thread from the grave, but maybe I'm having trouble understanding the replies. Aren't posts 3 and 4 replying to post 2? I'm curious to whether or not covering the VIN is illegal as well, but the original post in my opinion hasn't really been replied to.

My friend told me that he has heard of stories where a person who is a close friend to a parts guy at a car dealer, was able to get a car key cut from a dealer by providing the VIN of a car. If that's the case, wouldn't theft of a car be easy?

[MegaMx]

sorry to bump this thread from the grave, but maybe I'm having trouble understanding the replies. Aren't posts 3 and 4 replying to post 2? I'm curious to whether or not covering the VIN is illegal as well, but the original post in my opinion hasn't really been replied to.

My friend told me that he has heard of stories where a person who is a close friend to a parts guy at a car dealer, was able to get a car key cut from a dealer by providing the VIN of a car. If that's the case, wouldn't theft of a car be easy?
Key cut, no. Coded alarm, yes.

If you think it's that easy, try walking into a dealership, give them a vin of a car you see on the street and see what they ask you for.

I lost my mercedes code key and I had to go in. I had to sign a ton of papers, get it approved on a few levels, they sent the request to the factory, factory generated a new key, sent it back, went through more paperwork, id, proof of ownership and then finally got a key.

It's not exactly walk in with a vin, walk out with a key.

[johny]

It's not exactly walk in with a vin, walk out with a key.

with normal keys it could be. normaly they ask for an insurance paper or something though.

[Cyclonus]

^^
Thanks guys for the details regarding obtaining a key if one were to lose it, but the question by the OP has yet to be answered.

"Is it illegal to cover the VIN on the dash by the windshield of the drivers side." Yes or No, and if one of the police officer mods can answer it, that would be great too!

[Splinter]

It is legal to cover it with some temporary means, like a piece of tape, but you might get some extra time chatting with a cop who pulls you over as to why its covered and whether or not he feels like believing you.

[skidmark]

just wondering if it's illegal to cover the VIN on your dashboard?

I can't think of any reason as long as you are able to easily remove the cover to allow an officer to examine it if requested.

[underscore]

^ what about in the case of a parked violation? I was under the impression that the reason the VIN is placed on the dash like that was so that it could be easily read by officers and the like.

[Soundy]

I've never seen my VIN recorded on a parking ticket, so I don't see why anyone would care. In fact, I have a City of Vancouver parking ticket right here in front of me - plate is listed, VIN isn't.

[underscore]

parked, not parking.

[Soundy]

Sorry, just figured it was typical RS Engrish :) I am out of word!

So what's a "parked violation"?? Not asking to be snide, I just can't make sense of the term.

[underscore]

I'm a white guy born and raised in Kelowna :) i spek vry gud engrish lulz

Anywho, I'm referring to the purpose of the dashboard VIN, which I believe was to be viewed easily (mostly by officers) regardless of whether or not you're in the car. I'm not saying they'd bother to list the VIN but they may check it from time to time to ensure it matches up. Stolen plates etc.

[Bath Tussue]

i have had my vin covered up by a piece of foam for the past year.
none of the officers i encountered gave me any problem with it.
drove thru the boarder a few times, no problem either

on a side note about making a key with the VIN: I have seen a dealership do it in less than 10 minutes.
story behind it:
- dealership people locked key inside car.
- didn't want to ask the customer for spare key.
- read vin
- come back within 10 minutes with a new key to unlock car.
- "you didn't see this"

[underscore]

yes but that's a dealership doing it for dealership personal-based errors. I highly doubt any of you have cars so nuts that people are paying off dealership management to get a key based on the VIN.

[03c0upe]

I guess ill take my car back to the body shop they replaced my dash and said they forgot to remove the VIN plate off my old dash and attach it to the new one. And now its gone in the trash.

[skidmark]

Unfortunately it is not so simple. Once you have removed a VIN, you are supposed to replace it with an assigned VIN. An officer finding a VIN plate reattached with pop rivets may consider the vehicle stolen according to the Criminal Code. A search should find the thread where this was discussed.

[jlenko]

"reattached"? My original VIN plate is still attached, with pop rivets... as supplied by the factory.

[Bath Tussue]

I know i am bumping another old thread in additional to the rebadging thread.
The last post i made in this thread, I said i haven't been given trouble over the sticker over the vin.
Things have changed. A few days ago, a VPD officer told me he could have ticketed me for covering my VIN with a sticker.
The sticker is just a sticker placed on the windshield. I also have a piece of foam covering it from the inside.
At the officer's request, I removed both in under 10 seconds so he could run a check on the VIN to match the plate.

I am wondering if there is an exact law saying I can or can't cover my VIN with a sticker?

[zulutango]

illegible [ɪˈlɛdʒɪbəl]
adj
unable to be read or deciphered
illegibility , illegibleness n
illegibly adv
Collins English Dictionary – Complete

(a) the vehicle identification number on a motor vehicle or trailer has become illegible or has been removed or obliterated;

I believe that a case could be made for a hidden VIN being illegible if it is unable to be read? It would be up to the J.P. to decide. In the meantime, why are you driving around with it being "unable to be read"? Why attract heat? I know if I couldn't easliy see the VIN I would be taking a very close look at the vehicle, as that is very suspicious.

[MWR34]

illegible [ɪˈlɛdʒɪbəl]
adj
unable to be read or deciphered
illegibility , illegibleness n
illegibly adv
Collins English Dictionary – Complete

(a) the vehicle identification number on a motor vehicle or trailer has become illegible or has been removed or obliterated;

I believe that a case could be made for a hidden VIN being illegible if it is unable to be read? It would be up to the J.P. to decide. In the meantime, why are you driving around with it being "unable to be read"? Why attract heat? I know if I couldn't easliy see the VIN I would be taking a very close look at the vehicle, as that is very suspicious.

I think this doesnt matter.

take for instance a Japanese Car, like a Toyota Soarer. There is no VIN on the dash, or any at all facing the outside of the car. Without opening the door or hood, it is impossible to verify the VIN. Just because it isnt visible, doesn't mean its Illegible. Illegible is more like, I cant read it when I can see it, like scratching, grinding, rubbed off/partially removed VIN's in the correct spot.
If a Cop cannot see the VIN from walking around and inspecting it, and he can run the plates, its his duty to contact the owner and have him pop the hood or where-ever its located. Not issue a ticket.... geez.

try reading a car's VIN at 6am, with condensation on the window. You Cant.. That but doesn't make it illegible.

[03c0upe]

got my dash replaced. new vin has to be placed in jamb according to icbc ,so should be fine to have it covered cuz i dont even have one visible.

[zulutango]

If a Cop cannot see the VIN from walking around and inspecting it, and he can run the plates, its his duty to contact the owner and have him pop the hood or where-ever its located. Not issue a ticket.... geez

Running the plates gives them the information for those plates on file, and the VIN number attached to those plates....however, if you can't find the VIN on the vehicle itself to confirm that the car is the one listed on the plates, then you have nothing. It is not uncommon to have people take plates from one similar car & run with them on another.

I know one company that used a series of pickup trucks to collect oysters on the beach and they were all Chevy. They would just flip the same plate from truck to truck instead of registering them all. The only way you could tell was by the VIN numbers. I used to check them, write a no insurance VT and call a tow truck. After the second time I began seizing the plates as well. If a plate is regsitered to a blue Civic and it's on a blue Civic how can you tell if it's the correct one unless you have a visible VIN? I'm not going to spend a lot of time playing VIN hide and seek. It must be there and it must be visible. If I can't find it then the car gets removed until the driver can prove that the plates belong to that car.

[underscore]

^ so what would happen to a car with no VIN on the dash? I don't think JDM cars came with them.

[TrueDreams]

JDM cars gets a vin plate made when they're registered in bc I believe.

[underscore]

nope, that changed years ago. I still have the JDM VIN

[rriggi]

Same with eurospec cars, no VIN.

I must say I love it when I see authority figures looking around the dash for a good minute or so, then go open the door and do the same and still have no idea where it is. Its under the hood held on by two phillips screws, so if I had two identical cars I'd only need one plate..

However same car, same year, but US spec has the VIN stamped on the dash, on the rear trunk, door jamb, motor head, underneath on the frame and probably a ton more I didnt see

[MWR34]

I'm not going to spend a lot of time playing VIN hide and seek. It must be there and it must be visible. If I can't find it then the car gets removed until the driver can prove that the plates belong to that car.

But that is being claimed "Guilty until proven Innocent". who is gonna pay for the tow truck fee when you start towing wrongfully accused cars? You cant just tow every vehicle cause you cant see the VIN. Like someone elses mentioned, BC assigned VINs are in the doorjam. not visible to the outside. and also fully legal. Probably 0.25% of cars on the road or even less are driven in a manner which you are talking about, but yet 100% of cars without VINs will be towed?

[Edison_Chen]

JDM cars: if these cars have 2 same VIN's on the vehicle, then it will not need an BC assign vin.

There are certain cars, only manufactured with 1 vin. If these vehicles only have 1 vin, ICBC still allows the vehicle to be registered. ICBC can look up which vehicles which only have 1 vin.

[zulutango]

But that is being claimed "Guilty until proven Innocent". who is gonna pay for the tow truck fee when you start towing wrongfully accused cars? You cant just tow every vehicle cause you cant see the VIN. Like someone elses mentioned, BC assigned VINs are in the doorjam. not visible to the outside. and also fully legal. Probably 0.25% of cars on the road or even less are driven in a manner which you are talking about, but yet 100% of cars without VINs will be towed?

Criminal Code of Canada says any vehicle not bearing a VIN or has one that has been removed or defaced is considered stolen. The onus of proving it is not stolen, is on the owner. That means, in short, if the VIN is not present, your car is stolen and you have to prove it is not.

354. (1) Every one commits an offence who has in his possession any property or thing or any proceeds of any property or thing knowing that all or part of the property or thing or of the proceeds was obtained by or derived directly or indirectly from

(a) the commission in Canada of an offence punishable by indictment; or

(b) an act or omission anywhere that, if it had occurred in Canada, would have constituted an offence punishable by indictment.

Obliterated vehicle identification number
(2) In proceedings in respect of an offence under subsection (1), evidence that a person has in his possession a motor vehicle the vehicle identification number of which has been wholly or partially removed or obliterated or a part of a motor vehicle being a part bearing a vehicle identification number that has been wholly or partially removed or obliterated is, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, proof that the motor vehicle or part, as the case may be, was obtained, and that such person had the motor vehicle or part, as the case may be, in his possession knowing that it was obtained,

[MWR34]

Criminal Code of Canada says any vehicle not bearing a VIN or has one that has been removed or defaced is considered stolen. The onus of proving it is not stolen, is on the owner. That means, in short, if the VIN is not present, your car is stolen and you have to prove it is not.

354. (1) Every one commits an offence who has in his possession any property or thing or any proceeds of any property or thing knowing that all or part of the property or thing or of the proceeds was obtained by or derived directly or indirectly from

(a) the commission in Canada of an offence punishable by indictment; or

(b) an act or omission anywhere that, if it had occurred in Canada, would have constituted an offence punishable by indictment.

Obliterated vehicle identification number
(2) In proceedings in respect of an offence under subsection (1), evidence that a person has in his possession a motor vehicle the vehicle identification number of which has been wholly or partially removed or obliterated or a part of a motor vehicle being a part bearing a vehicle identification number that has been wholly or partially removed or obliterated is, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, proof that the motor vehicle or part, as the case may be, was obtained, and that such person had the motor vehicle or part, as the case may be, in his possession knowing that it was obtained,


The Section of the MVA or CCC you just quoted does not apply here.

The vehicle does bear a VIN, but it is under the hood. It is not damaged, defaced, or removed. Just not visible from the outside.
I doesnt look like there is a law that is being broken by not having a Visible VIN, otherwise, why would ICBC tell all the Designated Inspection facilities to install new VINs to doorjams as opposed to Dashboards. A pop rivet or special screw can be applied to almost any smooth surface on the car, and the dashboard would be a convenient spot if there was a law to demand all vehicles show their VINs.

[1exotic]

I registered a fresh JDM import last week, just helping someone out with it..

From my experience and registering some cars, autoplan just checks the vehicle for 2 seperate vins. This particular car was an R33 which only had 2 VIN's, both were almost side by side on the firewall under the hood.

As long as there's 2 VIN's in place ICBC lets it go through. Autoplan issues an ICBC letter stating that they accept the short VIN on the vehicle yada yada......

Doesn't really seem like they care if its visible or not.

[zulutango]

[QUOTE=MWR34;7563102]The Section of the MVA or CCC you just quoted does not apply here.



I was replying to MWR34's earlier post, # 30. "But that is being claimed "Guilty until proven Innocent". who is gonna pay for the tow truck fee when you start towing wrongfully accused cars? You cant just tow every vehicle cause you cant see the VIN

The VIN must be visible, wherever regulation requires or permits it to be. For example, Japanese imported Minis have the VIN plate in the trunk (boot). If it is not there to be easily viewed, then the owner must be able to point it out. If the owner can not, the law says that if there is no VIN, the car is considered stolden property and the reverse onus requires the owner to prove otherwise...in other words, point out the VIN. It is beyond reason to expect every Cop to know the various possible locations of the VIN plate on every single different make and model of motor vehicle ever made and on the road and to be able to find them at roadside under every possible condition.

[Gumby]

Guys, I think we're arguing over semantics here.

In 99% of cases, your VIN should be visible from outside in the corner of your dashboard. Blocking it will only raise suspicion.

If your car is one of those rare cases where the VIN is hidden behind a door, trunk lid, hood, etc. then that is permissible as well. Just make sure you point it out to an officer when asked.

[Bath Tussue]

ya, but that doesn't explain why the cop gave me problem even after i showed him the VIN on my door jam and removed the sticker over my window to expose the dashboard VIN again.

[MWR34]

The VIN must be visible, wherever regulation requires or permits it to be. For example, Japanese imported Minis have the VIN plate in the trunk (boot). If it is not there to be easily viewed, then the owner must be able to point it out. If the owner can not, the law says that if there is no VIN, the car is considered stolden property and the reverse onus requires the owner to prove otherwise...in other words, point out the VIN. It is beyond reason to expect every Cop to know the various possible locations of the VIN plate on every single different make and model of motor vehicle ever made and on the road and to be able to find them at roadside under every possible condition.

Yes I understand this point, which involves a police man, with or confronting the owner near the vehicle. but your previous comment, made it sound like, A police officer can run my plate in a parking lot, and they proceed further to find the VIN on his own... if cant find it on the outside, he tows it.

meanwhile, im in the mall, and come out to my car missing and find out it was towed and deemed stolen. Thats what I had problems with. While the owner is not present.


I had a neighbor report I had a stolen vehicle or something in my sideyard, cops called me at work, asked to see the white cars VIN (cause it was a soarer, and didnt have the VIN on the outside) when I came home. I agreed, and they came, I popped my hood, and showed it, and i even offered the Customs paperwork ( it wasnt BC legal yet ) but they didnt bother inspecting too much. So my point was, they dont just tow it, cause they cant find the VIN, or atleast till they confront the owner etc..

[Gumby]

ya, but that doesn't explain why the cop gave me problem even after i showed him the VIN on my door jam and removed the sticker over my window to expose the dashboard VIN again.
By covering the dashboard VIN with a sticker, the cop isn't able to do his job easily - in this case, check to make sure your car isn't stolen. And he doesn't know that the VIN is also printed on the door jam.

If you make his job difficult, he will give you a problem! :p

[zulutango]

ya, but that doesn't explain why the cop gave me problem even after i showed him the VIN on my door jam and removed the sticker over my window to expose the dashboard VIN again.

Probably because the fact that you had covered it up lead him to believe that there was a possible "stolen vehicle" and he had to spend time investigating something that could have been avoided by you having your VIN visible. The Brits have a phrase that covers it...."wasting Police time".

MRW34, I can't see any Cop towing an unoccupied vehicle without doing some investigation first. If the plates belong to a green Toyota and the vehicle is a green Toyota then there should be some reasonable efforts made to locate the owner first, if the VIN is not visible. If the Toyota is over 15 years old and has left hand drive, then the expectation is that it is JDM and the VIN may be somewhere else. If it is 3 years old and right hand drive, then I would be seriously suspicious if the VIN was not visible.