Officer regrets what happened to Dziekanski, but thinks he acted properly [Archive]

wahyinghung

02-24-2009, 09:58 PM

James Keller, THE CANADIAN PRESS
VANCOUVER, B.C. - One of the Mounties who confronted Robert Dziekanski at Vancouver's airport the night he was stunned by a Taser and died says he regrets the Polish man's death.

But Const. Gerry Rundel told a public inquiry into Dziekanski's death that there was nothing he could have done differently.

Rundel said Tuesday that the death in October 2007 was a "terrible outcome."

Still, he said when he and three officers approached Dziekanski and shocked him with a Taser seconds later, they acted according to their training and did the best they could under the circumstances.

Rundel said he's sure everyone involved has wondered if they could have done something differently.

"But given the fact that we came in without all that prior knowledge and had to deal with the situation with the limited information we had, I can't say I could have done anything differently," he said.

"That's unfortunate, but that is how it is."

By the time police arrived, Dziekanski had been travelling for more than a day and had been at the airport for nearly 10 hours.

When he finally cleared immigration and customs, his mother had already returned home to Kamloops, B.C.

He had a loud confrontation with a limo driver and then started throwing furniture around.

But Rundel said he and his fellow officers didn't know any of that, and had to act quickly because they believed Dziekanski posed a threat as he clenched his fist around a stapler.

The officers' reaction has been a central issue in the inquiry, and Rundel has said he has thought about it, as well.

"You regret what happened, of course," said Ravi Hira, the lawyer for one of the other officers.

"Of course," replied Rundel.

Earlier, the lawyer for Dziekanski's mother, Walter Kosteckyj, questioned whether Rundel and the other officers acted according to their training in how they interacted with Dziekanski.

Rundel testified that they didn't speak a word to each other or ask any witnesses for information before they confronted Dziekansi.

Rundel agreed with Kosteckyj that physical force is supposed to be a last resort, and that RCMP training emphasized the importance of communication and the need to analyze a scene upon arriving.

However, Rundel said there simply wasn't enough time for any of that before the first shock of the Taser.

"Time did not allow that," said Rundel. "Everything was happening very fast."

Rundel said that he, Const. Bill Bentley, Const. Kwesi Millington and Cpl. Benjamin Robinson were on a dinner break at the RCMP's airport detachment when they received a call about a man throwing furniture at the airport.

He said none of the officers said anything to each other as they stood up, went to their police cruisers, drove to the airport and walked toward Dziekanski.

The supervising officer, Robinson, didn't assign tasks to any of his constables or discuss how they might respond, said Rundel.

He said a distressed woman approached and pointed out Dziekanski, and another shouted that the man didn't speak English, but that was the end of the officers' interaction with the public.

Kosteckyj asked why none of the officers spoke to witnesses, tried to find out why Dziekanski was agitated or even looked at the man's luggage tags to find out where he was from.

"I'm just curious as to why one of you didn't gather some information?" said Kosteckyj.

"If the opportunity presented itself, that would have happened," replied Rundel.

Rundel, who had been on the force for two years at the time, repeatedly referred to his training throughout his testimony - training that will be a central issue at the inquiry. Questions abound about the RCMP's use-of-force guidelines and training in the use of shock weapons.

In December, Crown prosecutors announced that the use of force was reasonable in the circumstances and that none of the officers would face criminal charges.

However, the inquiry's final report can still make findings of misconduct against the officers or anyone else involved.

Rundel said at the time, Tasers were considered safe and were on the lower end of the use-of-force guidelines, below pepper spray and batons.

The Canadian Police Association and the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police came out in defence of Tasers Tuesday, declaring that every officer in the country should be authorized to carry one.

But they also admitted that officers have used Tasers too often, stunned peaceful suspects, and not been transparent enough in reporting how they've used the weapon.

The RCMP has changed its policies since Dziekanski's death, noting the devices can kill and restricting their use to cases involving threats to officers or public safety.

It's not clear, however, how those changes would have altered what happened to Dziekanski.

Rundel has testified that he feared for his safety and believed Dziekanski posed a threat.

Durrann1984

02-24-2009, 10:46 PM

they still dont admit that what they did was wrong...unbelievable

Razor Ramon HG

02-24-2009, 10:51 PM

Fucking cocksucker, he needs a wok to his head.

Lude S

02-25-2009, 12:11 AM

i wonder which of the officer at the inquiry is the one that killed the Ladner man while driving under the influence...

fucking usless trash cops, they should be protecting, not killing....

Harvey Specter

02-25-2009, 12:39 AM

Fuck this asshole. I wish karma pays him back.

Grimist

02-25-2009, 01:18 AM

achiam

02-25-2009, 11:56 AM

^I too agree.
The police officers were indeed following their training, which I'm sure will be scrutinized by the Courts.
Its obvious that none of them would have wanted this outcome to occur. And although everyone is angry with the death, frustration shouldn't be funneled at the officers.
If blame should be squared off at all, it should be at the system.

bubba_g

02-25-2009, 12:17 PM

When the story first came out, I was sympathetic with the officers, but with more info coming out the last few months my views are totally opposite now. On the news today, they reported a total of 30 seconds of tazering. Tell me how that's not going to kill someone or that's not use of excessive force?

tool001

02-25-2009, 01:05 PM

training is one thing, tazing the guy 5 times is another.
of course they will not admin, better to deny, that way its easy to live with oneself and no civil lawsuites agains RCMP

Durrann1984

02-25-2009, 01:11 PM

No apology as first Mountie wraps up at Taser inquiry

The first RCMP officer to testify at the Braidwood inquiry into the death of Robert Dziekanski ended his evidence at noon Wednesday by refusing to apologize, even when offered an opportunity to do so by a lawyer for the Polish government.

The inquiry also heard evidence for the first time this morning that the actual Taser used against Dziekanski cycled for 31 seconds, including at least three jolts directly attached to the man's skin, one of which lasted as long as nine seconds.

"I never heard anything from this officer other than words in defence of what he had done," said Don Rosenbloom, lawyer for the Polish government.

Great68

02-25-2009, 01:15 PM

I thought their training would have would have taught them to evaluate a situation, maybe develop a plan to handle the situation....

But apparently they didn't even say a word to each other before confronting Dziekanski

Durrann1984

02-25-2009, 01:15 PM

"The officer's statement was patently absurd, as it is clear from the video that Mr. Dziekanski never raised the stapler above his head or made any threatening gestures before he was hit the first time by the Taser," said Rosenbloom.

we all understand no one wanted him to die and the officers did what they were trained to do but NOT admitting that they made a mistake justifies that what they didnt do ne thing wrong...

Durrann1984

02-25-2009, 01:16 PM

not to mention the officers lied that he was confrontational.

unit

02-25-2009, 01:17 PM

it was a little excessive... they say tasers are less forceful than pepperspray and batons, but when was the last time a baton or pepperspray (when used correctly) killed someone? a lot of people have died from taser use in the past due to prior health conditions or police misuse.

donot521

02-25-2009, 01:30 PM

I find two things really ridiculous....

1. Dziekanski raising his arms in the air and backing off(from his suitcase) is considered 'taking a combative stance'.

2. Cop felt his life was in danger seeing a stapler in Dziekanski's hand.

Sigh...you cops....what a way to make a new immigrant feel welcomed in our eh-hem...wonderful country.

Our city has been going to the shits in the past few years and I hope justice will prevail.

SoulCrusher

02-25-2009, 01:40 PM

Ya exactly they weren't trying to kill him. Hitting him 5 times with the taser (even when he was laying on the ground) was just for shits and giggles. [/sarcasm]

Justify that... CopLover

What the fuck, lay off the guy...they had NO INTENTION of killing him.

donot521

02-25-2009, 01:45 PM

Ya exactly they weren't trying to kill him. Hitting him 5 times with the taser (even when he was laying on the ground) was just for shits and giggles. [/sarcasm]

Justify that... CopLover

Word.

StylinRed

02-25-2009, 01:48 PM

was watching the news and the lawyer asked one of the officers/guards

"don't you take both arms up as a sign of surrender?" and the reply was "no"

also found out officers were taught to use the taser to calm people down -_-

nelnel

02-25-2009, 01:51 PM

i think the cop should get tazer five times to see how it feels in return. 2 years in the force, what a newb. His ego is what killed the guy.

ynot-llat

02-25-2009, 02:27 PM

hearing about this punk*ass b*itch cop making excuses FUCK*ING ENRAGES ME

FUC*K THE POLICE, THEM F@GGOTS

never around when you need them, and when they're around they're killing innocent victims

FUCK THE COP-s PUNK BiTCH3S

Sky_2000

02-25-2009, 04:44 PM

What the fuck, lay off the guy.

The cop REGRETS what happened, he had no intention of killing the guy. In a situation like that, a tazer seems perfectly sensible. It ends a seemingly violent situation without violence. I'd bet if the tazer didn't kill the guy (WHICH, it shouldn't have, but that's not the cop's fault), we would just go on with our lives and just said "Cops did what they're suppose to do"

All this shit happened because the tazer killed the guy. The cops just wanted to calm the situation by knocking the guy unconscious, they had NO INTENTION of killing him. Being regretful is probably the best thing they can feel, the tazer didn't do what it was suppose to.

Have you even seeen the video or been following the news about this trail?

Here watch the video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6nx0Cx3uMk

Do you see the lady talking to the guy at 2:22? She's trying to calm him down. He's twice her size but she said in the trial that at no time did she feel like he was going to attack her. Notice how all the airport security is standing around like dumbasses and don't even brother trying to talk to the guy? Turns out there was a person who was working at the airport at the time that did speak Russian and when he asked airport operations if they needed help translating they told him to bugger off. The worker was fired a couple months after the incident by the way. At no time in the video do you even see a stapler used. Also do you notice at 5:00 when the police come in they don't brother talking to anyone they all just walk towards the man all reach for there guns and tazers. NO WARNING NO NOTHING! 4 professionally trained officers couldn't deal with one angry airport traveller!

I travel a lot and know that the airport is the last place you want to fuck around at all but in all reality YVR airport workers are a bunch of morons. More then half of them can't even speak English so I'm not surpised that they couldn't deal with this.

m4k4v4li

02-25-2009, 04:57 PM

theres fuckin 4 of them lmao u dont even need anything to take him down, even then
shouldnt that be the last option, couldnt they have just gotten a translator to calm him down, how hard is it to calm someone down

Sid Vicious

02-25-2009, 04:59 PM

Bouncing Bettys

02-25-2009, 06:11 PM

haven't heard much from the cop-defender/blame Dziekanski crowd lately on here except for one saying he has switched his opinion.

- kT

02-25-2009, 06:59 PM

haven't heard much from the cop-defender/blame Dziekanski crowd lately on here except for one saying he has switched his opinion.

Cause there he wasn't really doing anything wrong.

He was mentally unstable, and distressed about something.

Even a guy rushing at the cops with fists clenched only needs to get tazed ONCE. This guy wasnt even posing a threat, and he got tased for 30 seconds total, and once for 9 seconds. It seems like a short amt of time, but watch your clock for 9 seconds and imagine having 50,000 volts going through your body for that entire time.

There's nothing the cops can say to justify this. He regrets it, but from what he was saying, he didn't feel bad that he killed a guy.

And holding 2 arms extended in the air isn't a sign of surrender?
That's just fucking ridiculous.

AzNightmare

02-25-2009, 07:40 PM

After all this, I still fail to understand why no translator was brought over to talk to the guy.
The tasers were definately not necessary.

Vansterdam

02-25-2009, 08:25 PM

fuck the police

t8v6

02-25-2009, 11:28 PM

maybe they should go back to using normal guns..=/

m4k4v4li

02-26-2009, 12:14 AM

zomg r u being sarcastic? phail attempt at being witty

donot521

02-26-2009, 08:00 AM

fucking pigs...

they show up at 5:24 and taz him at 5:34. None of them even understood what D. was saying....and they fucking killed him

It took well trained cops 10 seconds to determine A)Tackle Him B)Baton/Pepper Spray C)Let's just taz him so we can hurry up and grab some donuts when we're done

GLOW

02-26-2009, 08:31 AM

don't cops also carry a can of mace? coulda maced him and 4 guys tackle and cuff him. not sure why they needed to taze him like that.

or even taze him once and have 4 guys sit in him until cuffed. though i agree cops need to be careful while on the job, i think they need to understand how much force is 'necessary'

Ferra

02-26-2009, 09:38 AM

Don't think taser should have been used in the first place, guy was obviously backing off already..

but the biggest question is...5 times?? why the hell they need to tase a guy 5 times?? and watching the vid, it seems like they probably tased him 2-3 more times after he dropped on the floor twitching :(

Maybe he would've lived if they cop only tase him once or twice? I know taser is generally considered safe, but I am sure it will become lethal if you over use it...even a perfectly healthy person will probably die or suffered serious long-term injury if he was tasered 10-20 times continuously

superdennis

02-26-2009, 03:59 PM

this isnt about tasering or not tasering

i think this case sets a good example for every police officer out there who abuses their power... im sure a lot of members on this board have had an account with an officer one point in their lives and ill say ive run into my fair share of police who abuses their power.

there are times when you need to be serious, (for example, trying to catch gansters on our streets) but i dont think they need to be pricks at times when they dont need to be.

the police in BC in general needs better training in what they do.

tool001

02-26-2009, 09:18 PM

as per the news, two officers, changed thr stories.. go figure,, 4 charges of taser were while the guy was on the ground.

fucking police, no accountability. cant even expect to be honest anymore.

Sky_2000

02-26-2009, 10:12 PM

Mr. Kosteckyj pointed out that parts of Constable Bentley's testimony differed from what he wrote in his police notebook that night and in statements he later gave to investigations.

He told police investigators that day that Mr. Dziekanski began looking for a weapon as soon as police approached him. However, after watching the video, Constable Bentley acknowledged Mr. Dziekanski didn't pick up the stapler until after interacting with the officers.

His notes said Mr. Dziekanski was screaming and coming at the officers before the Taser was used, the officers had to tackle him to bring him to the ground, and one of the officers was checking Mr. Dziekanski's pulse.

He has since said those notes were incorrect, that he was tired when he wrote them and the a witness's video refreshed his memory.

Mr. Kosteckyj suggested the officer was trying to “cover your butt.”

The crown also found that these officers will not face criminal charges. This is exactly why all these cops are such assholes to the general public. They know no matter what they do they aren't going to get punished. These 4 assholes are all prolee all on paid leave. It sickens me that my tax dollars are paying for these low lives to live their lives.

Sky_2000

02-26-2009, 11:12 PM

Turns out the leader of the Taser Gang, RCMP Cpl. Benjamin Monty Robinson was arrest for drinking and drive while having 2 kids in the car. The officer hit a 21 your old man on his motorcycle and then proceeded to leave the scene of the accident.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/10/29/bc-mountie-crash-named.html

the more i read about this class the more outrage I get.

azzurro32

02-28-2009, 08:30 AM

Sky_2000

02-28-2009, 08:56 AM

Cops over reacted but this guy did have some type of thing coming to him. I mean come on, if I go to Poland, I am not going to start throwing chairs in the airport. And better yet, when the cops come talk to me, make MORE aggravated gestures. Look at 5:30ish in that video, he was wailing his arms like a madman. He did back up, but at one point he was going towards an officer wailing his arms (I cant tell if its cause he was getting tazed or not)

Tasered 5 times? Sure, excessive. Tasered once? Right or wrong?. Who knows. Its easy to make judgement now since we all know the intentions of Robert. But at the time, it could have gone either way. Remember, cops were called out to a hostile yelling guy throwing furniture in an airport of all places.

As much as I agree even tasering the guy once would not be the correct situation, but at the same time, this wouldnt have happened if he didnt act like such an idiot.

People should stop blaming their mistakes on other peoples mistakes.

do you know any of the details of this case at all azzurro32? At 5:30 he is being tasered that is why his arms are up waving around like a mad man.

At no point in the video is he going towards any of the officer that much has already been proven in the courts, the officers even had the guts to write in his notebook after the killing that Robert Dziekański came scream and yelling towards them which he never did. When asked about why what they had written in the notebook and what appear on tape didn't match up the officer said he was tried and didn't remember things right, even thou officers are trained to take correct notes. Does anyone smell a cover up? This smell so much like a cover up that the Canadian govt refuses to share any tapes, papers or other evidence regarding the case with the Polish govt.

Robert Dziekański did not kill or hurt anyone that night. He damaged a wooden stool and a computer monitor. The only one that killed anyone that night was the 4 RCMP officers. So who's to blame for what? Do you think Robert Dziekański deserved to die because he was upset and confused? He was coming to CANADA to start a new life. What did he see in this new life? Death by a police force who single duty is to protect the lives of its civilians.

Here azzurro32 read the wiki it might help you understand more about what happened: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Dziekanski

come back when your more informed.

azzurro32

02-28-2009, 09:21 AM

do you know any of the details of this case at all azzurro32? At 5:30 he is being tasered that is why his arms are up waving around like a mad man.

At no point in the video is he going towards any of the officer that much has already been proven in the courts, the officers even had the guts to write in his notebook after the killing that Robert Dziekański came scream and yelling towards them which he never did. When asked about why what they had written in the notebook and what appear on tape didn't match up the officer said he was tried and didn't remember things right, even thou officers are trained to take correct notes. Does anyone smell a cover up? This smell so much like a cover up that the Canadian govt refuses to share any tapes, papers or other evidence regarding the case with the Polish govt.

Robert Dziekański did not kill or hurt anyone that night. He damaged a wooden stool and a computer monitor. The only one that killed anyone that night was the 4 RCMP officers. So who's to blame for what? Do you think Robert Dziekański deserved to die because he was upset and confused? He was coming to CANADA to start a new life. What did he see in this new life? Death by a police force who single duty is to protect the lives of its civilians.

Here azzurro32 read the wiki it might help you understand more about what happened: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Dziekanski

come back when your more informed.

No, I dont know what happened (that's why I wrote in brackets 'not sure if hes being tazed or not').

All I know is that some dude was acting hysterical in an airport. Like I said, he probably shouldn't have been tasered, but the cops werent the only ones that made a mistake that night. His mistake cost him his life.

Ferra

02-28-2009, 09:40 AM

No, I dont know what happened (that's why I wrote in brackets 'not sure if hes being tazed or not').

All I know is that some dude was acting hysterical in an airport. Like I said, he probably shouldn't have been tasered, but the cops werent the only ones that made a mistake that night. His mistake cost him his life.
That apart, these cops also tried to cover up and bend the facts to legitimize their killing
If it werent' for the video tape, these guys would just lie and claim Dziekanski was holding a weapon charging at them...no inquiry would even be held...witness account from the airport would be worthless because the crown always believe an officer testimonial to be more reliable.

Shit like this probably happens a lot but gets covered up because the police lie their way out of the situation.

I think this really shows the integrity (or the lack of) from RCMP officer.

Sky_2000

02-28-2009, 09:53 AM

azzurro32

02-28-2009, 10:55 AM

And you think that his killing was warrantied. How can you make an informed opinon if you don't know what happened or even know all the facts? Stop spouting ignorance in a serious matter.

Lol, when did I say his killing was warranted? Did I say the cops should have taken him out back and popped a bullit in his head for tossing chairs around?

A taser is not meant to kill someone. A gun is. If the cops wanted him dead, they would have shot him, not tased him (yes, yes, I know, 5 times tasered is excessive - and they should be punished).

Read again. I said they probably shouldn't have even tased him. But judging by the way he was acting, I am not surprised he was tased.

Should they receive some type of punishment? Sure. But should they get all the blame? People are talking like this Robert guy was some type of hero or innocent victim. Remember that the moments leading up to the taser, he had a choice to remain calm.

Hell, he even had a choice to throw chairs around. He decided to throw chairs, become irate, and unfortunatly his decisions were paired with bad judgment from the cops.

Bad judgement from both parties.

Durrann1984

02-28-2009, 11:15 AM

azzurro32

02-28-2009, 11:27 AM

thats cuz he was an innocent victim.

he didnt do anything threatening when RCMP came
as a matter of fact he even put his hands up as a way of surrendering

there were 4 officers against 1 man

why arent u suprised that he got tasered?

Well, I say that as a Vancouverite cause I know how fast cops are to pull out the taser.

I'm not saying Robert deserved to be tased by any means, but come on, you gotta put SOME blame on the guy for acting how he did. Especially if you cannot speak the mother language of the country you are in, you shouldn't be throwing things around. Airports especially.

SoulCrusher

02-28-2009, 11:34 AM

Ludepower

02-28-2009, 12:01 PM

If you don't know the details, you're best to keep your opinions to yourself. Read up on the sequence of events and the court procedure and then come back in here and tell us what you think..... coplover

So who ever agrees saying it was Roberts fault too...is a coplover?

Havn't you heard...DONT FUCK WITH COPS? We dont have to read jack shit about events and court procedures...They are legalized gangsters...they always win.

So you sir STFU and hug your charter of rights...because nothings gonna change...they'll just cover their asses better next time.

tool001

02-28-2009, 12:08 PM

well, 1 good development, another case, about cops beating the guy in downtown,
1 of the cops will testify against the two cops charged. due to which they have added more charges.

Noir

02-28-2009, 02:30 PM

thats cuz he was an innocent victim.
He didn't deserve to die, but no he's not.

he didnt do anything threatening when RCMP came
as a matter of fact he even put his hands up as a way of surrendering
Yes he was, but the police officers also have to factor the variable that he's also erratic, unstable, and therefore unpredictable. Hence the tazer. The intent was to subdue, not to kill.

The intense public outcry is only the result of society's growing sentiment that one should never be responsible of one's own actions, which our very letigious culture strongly suggests. What happened to Dziekanski was a simple cause and effect.

Don't know why you guys are afraid of cops but I certainly am not.

Sky_2000

02-28-2009, 03:31 PM

Lol, when did I say his killing was warranted? Did I say the cops should have taken him out back and popped a bullit in his head for tossing chairs around?

A taser is not meant to kill someone. A gun is. If the cops wanted him dead, they would have shot him, not tased him (yes, yes, I know, 5 times tasered is excessive - and they should be punished).

Read again. I said they probably shouldn't have even tased him. But judging by the way he was acting, I am not surprised he was tased.

Should they receive some type of punishment? Sure. But should they get all the blame? People are talking like this Robert guy was some type of hero or innocent victim. Remember that the moments leading up to the taser, he had a choice to remain calm.

Hell, he even had a choice to throw chairs around. He decided to throw chairs, become irate, and unfortunatly his decisions were paired with bad judgment from the cops.

Bad judgement from both parties.

You did suggest that the killing was warrantied and here the quote in your first post

this wouldnt have happened if he didnt act like such an idiot.

He was an idiot and that's why he got killed right. You pretty much just
suggested that it's his own fault for being killed and that the officers killed him for being an idiot.

Yes, the officers we're told that a taser is not a weapon but the RCMP itself released a statement to it's own departments a mere 1-2 months before Dziekanski was killed warning against mulitple uses towards some subjects could seriously injury or even kill so extreme cautious when using the weapon. RCMP training even states to their officers that when using a taser gun one should let the victim recover before shocking them again.

He was not acting in a offensive matter when the officers came in. If he was then this trial would have never happened.

The main problem here is that the RCMP and these officers don't want to take any blame for this incident. Time and time again they have said it wasn't there fault. Even thou every other part that has been invovled with this incident have stated that in some way or another they faulted to ad Mr.Dziekanski properly and to the best of there ability.

It's also doesn't help thing that the RCMP has repeated lied to the public at this incident. At first the RCMP told the public that only 3 officers were involved in the altercation, which in fact there were 4 and they knew this. They also stated that he reason that the officed taser mr.Dziekanski was because he was yelling and screaming and was about to attack the officers when they arrived at the scene they also knew this wasn't the case either because they had see the video i had posted in this thread. Then there was the incident in which the RCMP refused to return the tape of the incident to the man who shot the tape even thou they promised him they would give it back to him in 48 hours. . He had to hire a lawyer to get the tape in question back. They also lied about a baton not being used in the incident when you can clearly see one being used in the video. Even with all this evidence against these officers and that indeed they were partically to blame for Mr.Dziekanski death, the crown still found the officers innocent and did not press any charges or punishment towards these officers. Is that ustice for you?

How do you know he threw "chairs" around? in the video you see him throw one chair and that wasn't even towards any one. The RCMP officers didn't even see that so how can you say they were just because he threw a chair that they themselves did not see? The officers in question didn't even know what was happening because they did not try to talk to any witness or even Mr.Dziekanski when they appeared on the scene. The only words any of them said to each other was "YOU GOT A TASER?"

Now is that the words of innoccent officers who were there to serve and protect. Those are the words of 4 men looking for a fight!

Finally do you know why he was so confused or in your words irate? He spend 24 hours fly then another 10 hours trying to clear customs. He was unstable because he just wanted to find his mom and go home to his new life. But instead he got no help from anyone that was able to communicate with him and the people that were sent to deal with the situation and possible help him killed him instead.

TELL ME WHERE IN THE ANY VIDEO OF THIS INCIDENT DO YOU SEE MR.Dziekanski DO ANYTHING THAT IS CONSIDERED THREATING OR AN ATTACK TOWARDS RCMP OR ANYONE ELSE? You can't!

Sky_2000

02-28-2009, 03:47 PM

So who ever agrees saying it was Roberts fault too...is a coplover?

Havn't you heard...DONT FUCK WITH COPS? We dont have to read jack shit about events and court procedures...They are legalized gangsters...they always win.

So you sir STFU and hug your charter of rights...because nothings gonna change...they'll just cover their asses better next time.

He's a coplover because even with all the information present to him he still can't get over the fact that the RCMP officer have partical or a big part in the blame game at the moment. They refuse to admit to any wrong doing and even show public contept towards anyone who doesn't believe them, because as we all know the police can never be wrong!

Yes don't fuck with the police cause they are always right!! Yes we should never question people in position of power cause they are always right!!! That the same self serving attitude that the majority of Germans had when Hitler comminted genocide on a whole race of people. Yes if we didn't have the Charter of Rights then what would we have? A country run by police and politictions who play by their own rules? Things will change because people will always strived for a better future.

PS. If you don't want to read what happened why do you think you have a right to be part of a conversation? Is it because you think you are so much smarter then everyone else? and that facts and reason do not matter in this society?

Sky_2000

02-28-2009, 04:02 PM

He didn't deserve to die, but no he's not.

Yes he was, but the police officers also have to factor the variable that he's also erratic, unstable, and therefore unpredictable. Hence the tazer. The intent was to subdue, not to kill.

The intense public outcry is only the result of society's growing sentiment that one should never be responsible of one's own actions, which our very letigious culture strongly suggests. What happened to Dziekanski was a simple cause and effect.

Don't know why you guys are afraid of cops but I certainly am not.

Yes, the big bad Polish rasied a staple over his head, because he was going to kill 4 high trained officers with 4 guns, 4 batons, Prepper Spray and who knows what else. How do you know the RCMP knew he was erratic and unstable and therefore unpredictible? Did they talk to him? Did they stand back and watch to see what he was up to? Did they talk to any witness that were there to see what he was up to?
The intent to subdue could have been argued the first 2 maybe 3 shocks but once he was down on the ground and had two RCMP officers on top of him there was no reason to shock him another 2 times.

No, the growing public sentiment is that these men in position of power highly dangerous weapons should be responsible for their actions and should not be above the law. Mr.Dziekanski has already paid with his life for his part in this transaction. Seeing that life is the ulitmate price that someone can pay for his mistake i think it's fair to say that Mr.Dziekanski has paid for his mistakes in full. So what about the officers responsible for his death?

welfare

02-28-2009, 04:34 PM

to anyone who still firmly believes that this man deserved to be tased, ask yourself this simple question:
would the officer have used lethal force, such as his handgun?
no. i don't think he would have.
anytime that anybody at all is tased, ever, that question should play through the officers head first.
the proof is in the pudding. officers are not capable of making the conscious choice to use this weapon exclusively in place of lethal force. especially if the weapon has been deemed non-lethal. IMO, it's not the weapon itself, but rather it's classification and use which makes it just as damaging as any gun

Noir

02-28-2009, 04:35 PM

Yes, the big bad Polish rasied a staple over his head, because he was going to kill 4 high trained officers with 4 guns, 4 batons, Prepper Spray and who knows what else. How do you know the RCMP knew he was erratic and unstable and therefore unpredictible? Did they talk to him? Did they stand back and watch to see what he was up to? Did they talk to any witness that were there to see what he was up to?
The intent to subdue could have been argued the first 2 maybe 3 shocks but once he was down on the ground and had two RCMP officers on top of him there was no reason to shock him another 2 times.

No, the growing public sentiment is that these men in position of power highly dangerous weapons should be responsible for their actions and should not be above the law. Mr.Dziekanski has already paid with his life for his part in this transaction. Seeing that life is the ulitmate price that someone can pay for his mistake i think it's fair to say that Mr.Dziekanski has paid for his mistakes in full. So what about the officers responsible for his death?

1. Why the emphasis on the stapler and not the incident as a whole?

2. To the bolded question: To be called in to aid an emergency, an incident must have already escalated to such proportions, as per reported by who called it in. Otherwise, I don't see why standard Airport Security could not have defused the situation themselves and detain Dzienkanski until the transfer of custody to authorities.

3. Simple common sense should indicate that Airports are one of the high-security establishments, along with Federal Banks, Treasury, etc (and rightfully so). If one doesn't believe me, one should try running through the metal detectors past security and see if they'll spare anyone any courtesy or extend someone a margin of doubt.

(I'm done arguing sentiments in the past thread, but these are the basis of my objective POV's)

welfare

02-28-2009, 04:45 PM

Otherwise, I don't see why standard Airport Security could not have defused the situation themselves and detain Dzienkanski until the transfer of custody to authorities.

there was actually something behind this, IIRC. look into it. whatever it was, i recall it had a foul stench

Ludepower

02-28-2009, 04:48 PM

He's a coplover because even with all the information present to him he still can't get over the fact that the RCMP officer have partical or a big part in the blame game at the moment. They refuse to admit to any wrong doing and even show public contept towards anyone who doesn't believe them, because as we all know the police can never be wrong!

Yes don't fuck with the police cause they are always right!! Yes we should never question people in position of power cause they are always right!!! That the same self serving attitude that the majority of Germans had when Hitler comminted genocide on a whole race of people. Yes if we didn't have the Charter of Rights then what would we have? A country run by police and politictions who play by their own rules? Things will change because people will always strived for a better future.

PS. If you don't want to read what happened why do you think you have a right to be part of a conversation? Is it because you think you are so much smarter then everyone else? and that facts and reason do not matter in this society?

HAHA Look at you go..your on FIRE!

Is this Rodney King? Why dont you go find more people like yourself and demontrate about this police brutality? That's right..there's not many of you cause the whole world CLEARLY saw what happen.

We dont have to read shit or follow court proceedings...spoken in any language...you dont walk away from the cops or your gettin burned.

LOL..i love how your took my charter of rights remake so literally and brought Hitler into this...get off your soapbox...we all have opinions...Robert has part blame to this...so dont tell me otherwise.

Sky_2000

02-28-2009, 05:13 PM

1. Why the emphasis on the stapler and not the incident as a whole?

2. To the bolded question: To be called in to aid an emergency, an incident must have already escalated to such proportions, as per reported by who called it in. Otherwise, I don't see why standard Airport Security could not have defused the situation themselves and detain Dzienkanski until the transfer of custody to authorities.

3. Simple common sense should indicate that Airports are one of the high-security establishments, along with Federal Banks, Treasury, etc (and rightfully so). If one doesn't believe me, one should try running through the metal detectors past security and see if they'll spare anyone any courtesy or extend someone a margin of doubt.

(I'm done arguing sentiments in the past thread, but these are the basis of my objective POV's)

1. Did the RCMP see him throwing chairs? No. Did they see him throwing a monitor? No. RCMP officers are trained to asset a situtation before they get 100 percent invovled in any altercation but clearly they did not brother asking anyone what was happening, they just rushed in with tasers a blazing. So the only parts that the officers really witness was when Mr.Dziekanski raised the stapler that is why I put such emphasis on it. So anything else that happened before they came isn't really relevant because the RCMP did not know exactly what had happened before they came. Every organization that was invovled in this incident has said that YES they were partly to blame and have issued formal apologizes to Mr.Dziekanski family. Are you looking at Airport Security failing to see that there was a strange man walking around there area for 10 hours? Are you asking yourself why RCMP officers didn't prepare themselves better with more information before engaging Mr.Dziekanski? Are you asking yourself why they had to taser Mr.Dziekanski even thou he didn't seem like he was fighting back after he was on the ground? Are you asking yourself why the RCMP has lied to many times about facts in this incident? I could go on and on but i have one question for you: "Are you looking at the whole incident?"

2. By the looks of your question you don't seem like you know a lot about the situation either. Airport Security calls the RCMP for ever little thing! Airport Security did not talk to the man at all. Have you ever dealt with CBRS or airport security? They usually don't take shit from no one and usually won't even listen to any one else point of views except their owns. So usually when people don't agree with them they just call RCMP so they can deal with it. He was in international customs for 10 hours, You would think Airport Security would have notice a man walking around for 10 hours looking lost and disorientated but they didn't. Even if Airport Security had tired to detain Mr.Dziekanski and failed to and called the RCMP for help, the RCMP are still at fault for not properly asseting the the incident before they went in with guns blazing. They are trained to asset all situations before acting upon it. They have stated from the time they recieved the call to come to the time they kill Mr.Dziekanski they only said one thing to each other "DO YOU HAVE A TASER?"

3. Common sense also dictates that if a man is walking around in a so called "high-security establishments" he should be noticed and be helped or escorted out in a reasonsible matter of time. He was there for 10 hours with no help or assistants from workers at the airport. And when they finally noticed him in disstressed they called RCMP right away without trying to deal with the man themselves. The fact is the Airport and the RCMP has a faulted system that should be addressed with. But the fact that he RCMP refuses to admit any fault is what really pisses off the public.

Sky_2000

02-28-2009, 05:23 PM

HAHA Look at you go..your on FIRE!

Is this Rodney King? Why dont you go find more people like yourself and demontrate about this police brutality? That's right..there's not many of you cause the whole world CLEARLY saw what happen.

We dont have to read shit or follow court proceedings...spoken in any language...you dont walk away from the cops or your gettin burned.

LOL..i love how your took my charter of rights remake so literally and brought Hitler into this...get off your soapbox...we all have opinions...Robert has part blame to this...so dont tell me otherwise.

There are alot of people who are outrage about this just as I am. If you did a simple google search you would see that most of Canada's major news networks are following this case very closely.

I agree you don't have to read shit or follow court proceeding but if your going to talk about something you should at least know what your talking about? You obivously don't.

Yes most of the world clearly saw what happen but you don't seem to have seen the same thing didn't you. He didn't walk away from the officer he was told/finger pointed by the commanding officer in the video to go over there. If you had been following the news or the links i have posted up for you then you would have known that. Good for you for having your own opinon but that doesn't stop you from looking like a moron.

He's dead what more punishment can you give him. The fact still remains that the RCMP officers have some liability to this matter but refuse to admit fault.

Do you think Robert deserved to die because of what he did?

welfare

02-28-2009, 05:40 PM

i don't think anybody in their right mind believes he deserved to die. and the officers didn't intentionally kill him.
honestly, we need to get rid of these fucking tasers. all they do is add more bruises to the already battered reputation of the rcmp and police forces.

Great68

02-28-2009, 06:21 PM

Noir

02-28-2009, 06:42 PM

1. Did the RCMP see him throwing chairs? No. Did they see him throwing a monitor? No. RCMP officers are trained to asset a situtation before they get 100 percent invovled in any altercation but clearly they did not brother asking anyone what was happening, they just rushed in with tasers a blazing. So the only parts that the officers really witness was when Mr.Dziekanski raised the stapler that is why I put such emphasis on it. So anything else that happened before they came isn't really relevant because the RCMP did not know exactly what had happened before they came. Every organization that was invovled in this incident has said that YES they were partly to blame and have issued formal apologizes to Mr.Dziekanski family. Are you looking at Airport Security failing to see that there was a strange man walking around there area for 10 hours? Are you asking yourself why RCMP officers didn't prepare themselves better with more information before engaging Mr.Dziekanski? Are you asking yourself why they had to taser Mr.Dziekanski even thou he didn't seem like he was fighting back after he was on the ground? Are you asking yourself why the RCMP has lied to many times about facts in this incident? I could go on and on but i have one question for you: "Are you looking at the whole incident?"

2. By the looks of your question you don't seem like you know a lot about the situation either. Airport Security calls the RCMP for ever little thing! Airport Security did not talk to the man at all. Have you ever dealt with CBRS or airport security? They usually don't take shit from no one and usually won't even listen to any one else point of views except their owns. So usually when people don't agree with them they just call RCMP so they can deal with it. He was in international customs for 10 hours, You would think Airport Security would have notice a man walking around for 10 hours looking lost and disorientated but they didn't. Even if Airport Security had tired to detain Mr.Dziekanski and failed to and called the RCMP for help, the RCMP are still at fault for not properly asseting the the incident before they went in with guns blazing. They are trained to asset all situations before acting upon it. They have stated from the time they recieved the call to come to the time they kill Mr.Dziekanski they only said one thing to each other "DO YOU HAVE A TASER?"

3. Common sense also dictates that if a man is walking around in a so called "high-security establishments" he should be noticed and be helped or escorted out in a reasonsible matter of time. He was there for 10 hours with no help or assistants from workers at the airport. And when they finally noticed him in disstressed they called RCMP right away without trying to deal with the man themselves. The fact is the Airport and the RCMP has a faulted system that should be addressed with. But the fact that he RCMP refuses to admit any fault is what really pisses off the public.

It's like arguing with Vmec.

Your points are still the same, you just altered it to a form of tirade. My original rebuttal can still more or less refute your points (with a fraction of the verbage). ;)

welfare

02-28-2009, 06:53 PM

tom smith is a dirty, treacherous piece of trash. right up there with schwarzenegger, bush and hitler

SumAznGuy

02-28-2009, 10:39 PM

Hate to point to the obvious, but the RCMP will never admit to any fault in the death whether they were at fault or not.

That being said, a few things that I noticed following the inquiry.
1) Perhaps the RCMP acted in haste, but if the call into 911 was shots fired, do you think the police will show up and spend the time to ask all witnesses what happened? You may argue that this is apples to oranges. So I will give you another example. Try calling the police and tell them someone broke into your house and see how long the response time is. Then try it again and say the perp is still in the house.

In this case, it was called in that some irate person was throwing things around in the airport. That is all the media has told us. Did they post the exact 911 call? Do we know what other information was given to 911 from the airport personel that called it in? I'm sure they talked about it in the inquiry yet no one in the media has posted it, and it doesn't seem like most of the poeple here know either.

2) The police show up and there is a man who was acting irate before they showed up. When the police approach him, from what I could see in the video, the guy clearly has a stapler in his hand. For those people that say "whoopdy ding it is a stapler" well if it is a metal stapler, that shit can hurt as much as a brick if it is used as a weapon or thrown at you.
As much as I don't like the police, I have met my share of officers that I felt went above and beyond the required minimum. Look at the officers that patrol the Police Forums. That being said, good cops or bad cops, they are all doing a job and should never have to put their own lives/safety at risk. Hence the bullet proof vest and non-lethal weapons besides the guns.
For those that ask why the police didn't use pepper spray or their batons? The police want to end the situation and subdue the man, not to escalade the situation. how do you think an irate violent person will react when they are attacked with a buton or pepper sprayed? Ever heard of the fight or flight response?
How many people remember the case where the VPD were trying to subdue a known car their with their butons and the guy ended up dying? Yes it happens. And afterwards, the police changed their procedure on baton usage.

3) The victim puts his hands up and walks away. I don't know about you, but I think that is grounds to use non-lethal force. What are you going to do, jump him from behind and get into a fist fight with the guy? But hey, what do I know? I never took any police training, so all these experts on RS must know something. Tazering him 5 times, now I give you that. I know it wasn't mentioned here, but someone else on the intraweb mentioned how the officers had their knees on the guys back and neck while they cuffed him. This is called subduing the person so they can cuff him. When there is someone on your neck, it is kinda hard to fight off the police.

4) The police realize the vicim is not breathing and calls for an ambulance. According to the inquiry, proper protocal was not followed. the ambulance was down graded so their lights were not flashing, and the airport ambulance wasn't called which would have been proper procedure.

5) Victim's mom was at the airport waiting for her son. When he never showed up, she asked the people for help and little help was offered. Fustrated, she returned to her home in Kelowna. Gee, how long of a bus ride was that?

There is some cover up, and I will not refute that. Was the officers wrong, perhaps because they used the tazer 5 times. Victim and mother could have co-ordinated things better. Airport needs to revise their procedures so instances like this will never happen again.
RCMP has already changed their policy on the tazer. How many people remember the 94 Stanley cup riots? How many people remember the person who was shot with a rubber bullet by the police? How mamy people know the guy suffered brain damage from the rubber bullet?

I am sick and tired of all the people bitching and crying about the whole incident. [/rant]

SumAznGuy

02-28-2009, 10:45 PM

Just flipping through channels, they are showing Guinie Pig on discovery and they are talking about less lethal weapons. AS i type this, they have already talked about pepper spray and the tazer. Up next the the bean bag gun.

supersaag

03-01-2009, 12:21 AM

^ Good Post.

Here are a few point I will add:

In an enclosed building, the use of pepper spray is not recommended as the spread of the spray can be harmful.

While being trained for the RCMP you are taught the 1+1 rule. You (Police Officer) are allowed to use force one step up from the force being used against yourself. Example: If someone is being verbally abusive, the PO is allowed to use their body to subdue the individual. If someone is using something small EG. a stick, bottle, stapler etc. the PO is supposed to use one step up which could be their baton, pepper spray and now the taser. It all falls into a chain where it is under the officers discretion on which weapon to use.

While looking into the events leading up to the volatile incident, there is a "ten" hour time period where something erupted in Mr.D. We as the general public dont know much about the leading events. An example is he doesnt speak English so if a customs officer asks him if he is bringing any drugs and he just knods his head, they have no choice but to search him. What if a security officer told him to pull down his pants to check for drugs in his ass?

Saying this, I believe that if there was sufficient "traveler/visitor information" provided by YVR, the situation wouldnt have gotten to that point. Did anyone notice the renovations done by YVR after the incident? From what ive heard, they spent a great deal of money installing phones and other tools for "visitors/travelers" who dont speak Canadas mother language.

I could also argue that Mr.D could have come to Canada more prepared. I dont remember where he was coming from but i guarantee that he could have found one of those translating books.

This leads me onto my next question, what kindof individual goes to a new country and throws stuff around? Either the individual is extremely stubborn, really stupid and/or retarded. I will speak from a personal example. I was flying to India with a stop somewhere in between, after the stop we took off and experienced some turbulance, winds and ice which made the aircraft use more fuel. We had to make a pitstop in some small city. Sounded like everything would be fine. An hour later we get a notice that the air crew ran out of "air time" or whatever its called. They werent allowed to fly the plane. We couldnt leave the plane because of some "rules". We ended up staying in the plane for a total of 25 hours before departing to the final destination.

Couldnt I have been justified for having a fit? I felt like throwing the crying fucking babies out of the plane but what good would have come from that. I believe that any sane, sober person would realize that. Why didnt Mr.D?

Many of you have been to other countries and will recognize a police officer right off the bat. If someone is wearing body armour in the public, you know there important. Any sane, sober person would recognize a PO. Why didnt Mr.D? Why did he turn around after being approached by four "marked" Police Officers? Will anyone agree with me when I say that him waving his hands and turning away from the police officers could be interpretated as a "Fuck Off"?

Another question. Have any of you had a slack day at work? When you didnt put your full effort into something just to get it done. Being a cop is like every other job. One could say the cops used the taser cause they were too lazy to subdue Mr.D by hand.

I heard that the POs involved were on their lunch/dinner break when the incident was reported to them. Im going to say that if it was me, i would be choked to be bothered on my lunch break to deal with some idiot throwing shit in a fucking airport. Do you know how emotionally hard it is to put down a half eaten boston cream donut or not being able to finish the last meaty part of a chili bowl. Yea, i would be rattled.

Now on the other side, i know a few officers who have worked at the airport and they will all say its "boring". Now just imagine having this shiny new taser and not being able to test it out. HEY, COPS ARE HUMANS! Give a guy something shiny and new and he will be dieing to use it. The young cop probably didnt pay attention in class when they talked about the RISK of the taser, hes a guy, he was probably thinking about the hunny sitting next to him. He gets to finally use his taser, hes really excited and he gives Mr.D a few extra jolts for fun. WHERE DO WE START BLAMING PEOPLE? Blame the cops mom, blame his teachers, what if the taser was faulty so lets blame that fucking thing too.

Finally, onto the "Police Brutality part of this". How many of you believe that the punishment system in Canada is shitty? Well let me remind you that cops are just like you:) They get angry too. I bet that every one of you would like to torture every child molester out there. I bet every cop would too. And they can! And they do but when some cops makes a judgement mistake like every other human out there, they deserve to be ridiculed? Tortured, as someone said earlier? Blame the cop for wanting to make an example of Mr.D. Dont cause a ruckus at an airport.

Simply put, if we are going to blame someone for this incident, it has to be the individual who made mankind. The person that allowed us to make mistakes.

On October 14th 2007, mankind failed.

welfare

03-01-2009, 12:40 AM

mankind failed? hah! that's actually less sound than the twinkie defense.
i'm not a professional golfer because i don't have a snowballs chance in hell of hitting a hole in one from 200 yards. get my point?

simsimi1004

03-01-2009, 01:10 AM

wtf is mankind fail.... more like police fail. police are human too but BECAUSE they chose to be cops, they should be more calm and be able to CONTROL their emotions of Anger, urge to use a shiny toy. It's their choice that they became a cop and they should be responsible for it. Their choice of being a cop allowed them authority to use lethal weapons and they should be fucking responsible using it.
in other words, police are human but they are one step above civilians, meaning that they should also be more careful of what they do, especially if their MISTAKE can lead to death.

i see this case realy simple.
with the info presented

Using a taser was not justified.
cops using the taser killed the man.
The mans death was not justified.

cops job is to serve justice.
cops action was not justified.
cops fail.

to azzuro.
what your saying is that robert is somewhat at blame for cops using a taser.
BUT, it doesnt matter if roberts mistake to lead to cops taser.
its teh fact that cops tasering was a MISTAKE. one that should have not been made and shuold be punished serverly.

to supersagg.
if cops are like me, then im like a cop.
so if you verbally abuse me, i have the right to use force on you?
Obviously not, because i am not a cop.
Cops should not be able to make a mistake like me, especially as big as this one. it was their choice to become a cop and they should live up to higher standards.

SumAznGuy

03-01-2009, 03:37 PM

Simsim1004, you fail to see the most basic parts of what happened in this incident.
First off, you claim using the tazer was not justified. So in your expertise, how should the officers have handled the situation? Remember, all they know was a call about a violent person who was throwing furniture around in the airport was made. When they approached the man, they clearly saw that he had a weapon in the stapler. Would YOU jump the man and try to man handle him to subdue him with brute force? Do you not think this would anger the already angry person and in turn he would use the stapler against the police officer?

The police using the tazer indirectly led to the man's death, but so did the slow medical aid response that the airport said they called in as a non-emergency.

Sure the man's death was unjustified, it was a pure accident.

The police is to protect and serve the public, in this case they did what they were supposed to do, by subduing an agitated violent person at the airport. Kennedy airport, Peurto Viarta, Peurto Plata, all the same. Guards armed with machine guns. I'm pretty sure if I started throwing things around, I would have a cap in my ass.

welfare

03-01-2009, 04:21 PM

sorry, but 4 trained officers should be able to subdue one man "armed" with stapler. wtf is he gonna do with that anyways? the officer says he feared for his life? HA! what a joke. perjury is another crime he should be convicted of.
as for the non-emergency medical response, i hope this is scrutinized even further than the officer who fired that weapon.
IIRC, there were actually trained airport medical respondents within yards.
i understand that the officers are human. and that should be enough reason to rid them of these "completely non-lethal" weapons. regretfully, i don't see that happening in the near future. what with all the contracts between law enforcement agencies and taser international and all. with all those profits, they've got a whole slew of new and exciting fun toys to unleash on the public now

simsimi1004

03-01-2009, 04:35 PM

Simsim1004, you fail to see the most basic parts of what happened in this incident.
First off, you claim using the tazer was not justified. So in your expertise, how should the officers have handled the situation?
okay. maybe one shot was justified but definately not 5.

The police using the tazer indirectly led to the man's death, but so did the slow medical aid response that the airport said they called in as a non-emergency.
When i look at this with the most basic view, if the police didnt use taser 5 times, i doubt the man wouldve stopped breathing.

Sure the man's death was unjustified, it was a pure accident.
again taser 5 times is not an accident. its fucked up thinking of popo that shouldnt have been made.

The police is to protect and serve the public, in this case they did what they were supposed to do, by subduing an agitated violent person at the airport. Kennedy airport, Peurto Viarta, Peurto Plata, all the same. Guards armed with machine guns. I'm pretty sure if I started throwing things around, I would have a cap in my ass.
IMO, i think they did MORE than they were supposed to do. I'm sure just one or two cops with one/two taser couldve taken the man down. Popo couldve also subdued a man by shooting him with bullet, no? is that too brutal/harsh? im saying 5 shots is maybe excessive like using a gun?
if u start "tossing" (i dont think robert was really throwing), a cap in your ass is what u think u deserve? i think a 1 taser shot is more reasonable.

so what im trying to say is that 5 taser shots is not what the police shouldve done. I think you know this too.
Tazering him 5 times, now I give you that.
Was the officers wrong, perhaps because they used the tazer 5 times.
But because they did, it ultimately led to the man's death. So if you look at it from simple view, the police did wrong and it lead to man's death. popo fucked up.

and dont get me wrong, i respect popo, but the popo in this video fucked up.

Noir

03-01-2009, 05:26 PM

okay. maybe one shot was justified but definately not 5.

If IIRC, the 5x tazer is only a new revelation to the incident. The original outcry was the use of tazers = murder, and that whether or not tazers were justified.

Are you now saying tazers WERE justified, just not the amount?

as for the non-emergency medical response, i hope this is scrutinized even further than the officer who fired that weapon.

Werd. But still, the point is that there's enough blame to go around from Dziekanski + Airport Staff & Security + RCMP + Medical Aid. They all have contributed to the outcome of the incident. But what I disagree with is that I believe people are ONLY persecuting the police due to the general public bias against authorities and THAT reason alone; That this incident is only an opportunity to scorn figures of authority.

Despite the public demonization of our local police, I still think they're inline with or better than other 1st world policing from such nations as US, Britain, France or Germany. They are a far cry from the corrupt Nazi's from nations such as Mexico, Columbia, Slavic countries and the like.

simsimi1004

03-01-2009, 06:25 PM

SumAznGuy

03-01-2009, 07:01 PM

I meant taser as a incident of 5times cuz thats what happend.
i saw someone get tasered once right infront of me and know that it doesnt kill them.... but that was just 1 shot.

^^MAYBE 1 taser was OK. cuz seriously 4 trained cops vs 1 guy with stapler... i read somewhere the man was holding a stapler with fist. i was thinking and how else do u hold a stapler without using the whole hand to wrap around it.. but since cops are always shit scared for their life and their trained to expect the worst with stapler.

It is not uncommon to fire the tazer 2 times. First time puts the perp onto the ground, and the second time keeps the perp on the ground so the officers have time to get ontop of the person. Sometimes if the person is fighting back, a third zap will be used. That being said, I cannot tell from the video when the 5 zaps were used so I cannot comment on why 5 zaps were used. All I can say is if I was an officer and I had the tazer, I wouldn't think twice about using the zapper more than once to subdue the guy.

I said this once and I'll say it again. The police's job in this instance is to go and end the situation as soon as possible. Let's look at alternate forms of force they could have used. For one, shooting the guy in the leg is something you only see in the movies. The officers are trained to go for the biggest mass, ie his chest. Hmmm, shooting the guy in the chest. IMO not a really good idea.
Pepper spray, would subdue the guy, unless he was high on drugs. No one knew if he was or wasn't on drugs but there have been instances where a person high on crack/meth had super human strength and was able to fight back even after being shot 5 times. There was another instance where a person took heroin instead of cocain by mistake, fell from a roof and broke both her legs and was still walking around. But because they were indoors, the spray would become a fine mist and spread out in the air which could/would affect the 4 officers and innocent bystanders. ALso not a good idea.
Attack him with the buton, the irate person would most likely fight back which puts the officers in a dangerous position.

Ultimately, the police need to have the upper hand. That is just how it has to be. If you are not an officer, or taken the police training, it is hard to understand. For the people that say there was 4 officers against the one guy, remember what happened in Alberta where the 4 officers were murdered by the one guy? No officer should ever have to put their lives on the line like that. If it means they need a little extra protection, so be it. I am fine with that.

Once the perp was cuffed, if they tazered him or booted him with the buton, the I would cry foul.

As for the 5 tazers that lead the guys death, how do you know he didn't have a condition which added the extra stress of the trip, plus the tazer is what caused his heart to stop? But because the medical aid was so slow to respond due to other reasons, is it fair to say the tazering led to the guys death? I can only speculate, just like everyone else.

welfare

03-01-2009, 07:56 PM

I said this once and I'll say it again. The police's job in this instance is to go and end the situation as soon as possible.

you forgot a key word "safe"

Let's look at alternate forms of force they could have used. For one, shooting the guy in the leg is something you only see in the movies. The officers are trained to go for the biggest mass, ie his chest. Hmmm, shooting the guy in the chest. IMO not a really good idea.
Pepper spray, would subdue the guy, unless he was high on drugs. No one knew if he was or wasn't on drugs but there have been instances where a person high on crack/meth had super human strength and was able to fight back even after being shot 5 times. There was another instance where a person took heroin instead of cocain by mistake, fell from a roof and broke both her legs and was still walking around. But because they were indoors, the spray would become a fine mist and spread out in the air which could/would affect the 4 officers and innocent bystanders. ALso not a good idea.
Attack him with the buton, the irate person would most likely fight back which puts the officers in a dangerous position.

you really do prefer stating freak occurrences, don't you?
how about using there 8 trained hands and legs? i really don't see why that would have been so difficult.

Ultimately, the police need to have the upper hand. That is just how it has to be. If you are not an officer, or taken the police training, it is hard to understand. For the people that say there was 4 officers against the one guy, remember what happened in Alberta where the 4 officers were murdered by the one guy? No officer should ever have to put their lives on the line like that. If it means they need a little extra protection, so be it. I am fine with that.

once again, another freak occurrence. and they already had the upper hand x4

SumAznGuy

03-01-2009, 11:53 PM

you forgot a key word "safe"

you really do prefer stating freak occurrences, don't you?
how about using there 8 trained hands and legs? i really don't see why that would have been so difficult.

once again, another freak occurrence. and they already had the upper hand x4

So what would you recommend? Shooting the perp in the leg?
Or asking him to lie down so they could cuff him?

Believe it or not, they are not that freak of an occurance. I know people who work at 222 Main st. and it happens quite a bit.

Remember the term fight or flight? If the 4 officers tried to man handle the 6 ft+ individual with a metal stapler in his hand, how do you think he will respond? Lie down and play dead? The police knew the man was agitated and showed violent tendencies when he was throwing furniture around.

And in regards to the 4 officers who were killed in the line of duty, it may be a rare occurance, but no one wants it to happen again. Which is why the RCMP changed some of their protocals after that incident. That is why officers wear bullet proof vest. Hell, even police dogs have bullet proof vest.

Senna4ever

03-02-2009, 01:51 AM

I took some photos at the rally held to honour Robert last year.

http://www.revscene.net/forums/rally-honour-robert-t504716.html?t=504716

supersaag

03-02-2009, 09:59 AM

Get rid of the taser. Get the baton out. Make the guy hurt for the next month.

Jason00S2000

03-02-2009, 11:00 AM

Get rid of the taser. Get the baton out. Make the guy hurt for the next month.

Cops are too pussy these days to do that.

Cops = gang

Gangs and cops... no difference. Neither are on your side, they both have their own interests to look after.

supersaag

03-02-2009, 12:24 PM

Cops are too pussy these days to do that.

Cops = gang

Gangs and cops... no difference. Neither are on your side, they both have their own interests to look after.

Whaaaa? "Neither are on your side" If your mom/sister/wife/daughter got kidnapped/murdered whose going to help you? I bet the next thing your going to say is parking patrol is a gang right?

welfare

03-02-2009, 10:06 PM

Whaaaa? "Neither are on your side" If your mom/sister/wife/daughter got kidnapped/murdered whose going to help you? I bet the next thing your going to say is parking patrol is a gang right?

all depends, really. how rich/well known is your family?

Gh0stRider

03-02-2009, 10:07 PM

fuck Dziekanski

welfare

03-02-2009, 10:18 PM

fuck Dziekanski

way to go, sport. comments like that speak volumes of your level of intelligence

Hondaracer

03-02-2009, 10:28 PM

i say fuck Dziekanski and fuck his stupid ass mother as well

the inquiry today that they showed on the news was absolutely disgusting, questioning the officers integrity and the whole story was posed like they were in the wrong

I'm going to take my camera and record 2 different little spots from COPS i watched today

in one an asian man who was 20 years old, who couldnt have been more then 150lb's was behind a glass little patio door and the cops just wanted to talk to him, he was saying get out, why are u in my home? bla bla bla, he then tried to shut the glass door and when he did the cop kicked it down and tazered him like no tommarow, no warning given, no questions asked

i think it's an absolute joke this inquiry is even going on, and if there was no video tape of the incident, this would never be happening

again ill say it, fuck Dziekanski and fuck his dumb ass cunt mother.

Gh0stRider

03-02-2009, 10:44 PM

just voicing my opinion, idiot

falcon

03-02-2009, 11:09 PM

.....You did suggest that the killing was warrantied and here the quote in your first post......
<snip>
.........He was an idiot and that's why he got killed right......
<snip>
...... situation and possible help him killed him instead.....

The thing that you guys don't seem to get is that this was not a "killing". No body got killed... but yes someone DIED.

dude got tazed... dude died. the RCMP officers were not thinking "hey lets kill this guy, grab your tazer!".. if they wanted to do real damaged they would have pulled out guns.

Jason00S2000

03-02-2009, 11:19 PM

Whaaaa? "Neither are on your side" If your mom/sister/wife/daughter got kidnapped/murdered whose going to help you? I bet the next thing your going to say is parking patrol is a gang right?

Heh, if I were allowed a gun, I would find the people who kidnapped my sister/wife/daughter and slaughter their entire bloodline

welfare

03-03-2009, 05:39 AM

just voicing my opinion, idiot

and i was just stating a fact.
how about elaborating a little more?

taylor192

03-03-2009, 08:17 AM

20 years ago people complained police officers didn't carry a non-lethal weapon capable of taking down criminals. Today they do, and unfortunately people still complain even though police killings have been reduced to virtually nil.

Mistakes are going to happen, especially when dealing with mentally unstable people. The cops cannot admit to their mistake without opening a huge can of whoop-ass for civil suits and dismissal, so they have to stick to their story. When I commit a mistake at work it doesn't cost my company millions and me my job, its just the consequences of a mistake for a police officer are much higher.

Perhaps if we locked up the mentally unstable in institutions rather than let them roam society, we wouldn't have these problems... yet the latte-liberal lefties would have you believe its wrong to keep mentally challenged people out of society, even if its for their own good.

To everyone complaining: have you ever been on a ride-along? I have, my close friends are police and RCMP officers so I wanted to see what their jobs are like. Their jobs such, dealing with the worse people in society, those who disrespect them, those who are incapable of reason, ... so I give officers a bit more leniency for their conduct and I wish more people would too.

tool001

03-03-2009, 09:30 AM

i guess its ok, till it happens close to home,
cops have shitty job, well deal with it, they are trained for it, mentally and physically, to deal with scum, if they have problems, they shouldnt be doing it.

its not about person being killed, its about they using excessive force on a guy who didn't understand a word .

IF i chinese person was in the same situation, a translator will be provided. For fuck sakes they even have immigration exams in CHINESE and other languages. This city is planning to host the games. They just showed, if u cant speak english/chinese u'r gonna have a hard time in the city.
The guy was in the airport for 10 fucking hrs. U guys should try that out next time ur thr. and on top of that , nobody tried to help him with a translator.
AS far as RCMP goes, yes they are accountable, most of the public opinion is against them cause in the inq. they are changing the story.

of course this wont be a issue if it wasn't caught on tape, but does that mean these fucking cops should get away with it?

Jason00S2000

03-03-2009, 10:19 AM

Their jobs such, dealing with the worse people in society, those who disrespect them, those who are incapable of reason, ...

Instead of dealing with this with 20th century mentality, let's move into a 21st century mentality.

Let's enact a license to reproduce, and some other measures designed to encourage those type of people to not even be born in the first place.

Less quantity of people, but of a higher quality.

Noir

03-03-2009, 10:45 AM

^^^ Whow, slow your role there.

i guess its ok, till it happens close to home,
cops have shitty job, well deal with it, they are trained for it, mentally and physically, to deal with scum, if they have problems, they shouldnt be doing it.

Cops aren't complaining about the nature their work subjects them to. The only complaints existing are the ones arising from people who think they can do a better job of law enforcement than the PD themselves.

its not about person being killed, its about they using excessive force on a guy who didn't understand a word .

IF i chinese person was in the same situation, a translator will be provided. For fuck sakes they even have immigration exams in CHINESE and other languages. This city is planning to host the games. They just showed, if u cant speak english/chinese u'r gonna have a hard time in the city.
The guy was in the airport for 10 fucking hrs. U guys should try that out next time ur thr. and on top of that , nobody tried to help him with a translator.
AS far as RCMP goes, yes they are accountable, most of the public opinion is against them cause in the inq. they are changing the story.

:drama:

Millions of non-english speaking tourists and immigrants arrive to YVR annually. Whereas some have a pleasant experience, I don't doubt that countless of them also experience extended travel hours, communications frustrations, Customs complications. How many of them die @ YVR each year?

People are spinning this incident as if it's not isolated, it's a common occurrence, and that the police are out of control.

of course this wont be a issue if it wasn't caught on tape, but does that mean these fucking cops should get away with it?

Get away with what? There has been no determination of guilt yet. Innocent until proven guilty remember? Or have all of RS suddenly forgotten the most vital lesson learned in the "ImpactX vs Kspec" thread? Basing it on the "RS consensus of wisdom", until a judge in a court of law has found them legally liable for their actions, these guys are innocent, are they not? :D

Jason00S2000

03-03-2009, 10:52 AM

until a judge in a court of law has found them legally liable for their actions, these guys are innocent, are they not? :D

Cops and judges protect their own, they will get 0 punishment for a man they basically murdered.

Noir

03-03-2009, 11:00 AM

Cops and judges protect their own, they will get 0 punishment for a man they basically murdered.

I think you may have missed the point there.

Jason00S2000

03-03-2009, 11:16 AM

I think you may have missed the point there.

I think you may have missed the fact that this was caught on tape.

taylor192

03-03-2009, 11:41 AM

Let's enact a license to reproduce, and some other measures designed to encourage those type of people to not even be born in the first place.

Less quantity of people, but of a higher quality.
OK Hitler.

Noir

03-03-2009, 11:44 AM

I think you may have missed the fact that this was caught on tape.

okayyyyy. I guess I have to spell things out a little.

That statement had nothing to with tapes, argument whether the use of tazers were warranted, or dziekanski's death should be considered an accident or murder.

That statement was in reference to this:

I'M SORRY KSPEC, I SHOULDN'T HAVE CALLED YOU A THIEF
http://www.revscene.net/forums/im-sorry-kspec-t564633.html

It was an allusion to the determination of guilt. And with the reference above, I'm just using the "RS Standard" of innocent until found guilty by a court of law, as per determined by the thread above. Apparently, it doesn't matter the opinion, doesn't matter how convincing the guilt looks, doesn't matter the evidence behind it. So using this so-called wisdom of RS, these officers are considered innocent by RS Standards.

If people don't like those standards, then everyone must re-evaluate themselves lest they accept being called hypocrites or hypocrites in denial.

taylor192

03-03-2009, 11:47 AM

its not about person being killed, its about they using excessive force on a guy who didn't understand a word .

IF i chinese person was in the same situation, a translator will be provided. For fuck sakes they even have immigration exams in CHINESE and other languages. This city is planning to host the games. They just showed, if u cant speak english/chinese u'r gonna have a hard time in the city.

We are kind enough to provide services in other languages besides English/French, yet don't mistake that for "have to" provide these services.

Its not our fault a foreign citizen visits without any knowledge of our languages and without someone to guide them. He's lucky he was not shot, as he would have been at other airports throughout the world in countries without the same standard of policing.

I'll agree the officers used excessive force, I will not agree we should have done more to help him.

unit

03-03-2009, 12:00 PM

^hmm... getting shot, or getting tazed for over 30 seconds... honestly, i'll take the bullet.

tool001

03-03-2009, 01:08 PM

guys whatever u say,
in the end all have to agree,

dying the way he did is not a good way to go. his last 5-10 hr were miserable. Getting tazzed 5 time in another country where he didnt speak the language. He was gonna meet his mother after no wonder how long.
just not the right way to go.

Mugen EvOlutioN

03-03-2009, 01:30 PM

Jason00S2000

03-03-2009, 01:41 PM

fuck the police

no seriously fuck them

the cop should be tasered to death and see how it feels, tasered 5 times :rolleyes::rolleyes:

stapler as a threat? give me a motherfucknig break, wat are u? 5? jesus christ

next time i bet i will get shot by the cops for having a scissor in my hand as a lethal weapon
:rolleyes::rolleyes:

fucking pigs

I know, I've been more worried about sparring my jiu jitsu buddy than some dorky polak at the airport with a stapler.

Whatever happened to 4 cops just tackling someone? A stapler is NOT a threat. Fucking murdering pigs.

taylor192

03-03-2009, 01:46 PM

Whatever happened to 4 cops just tackling someone?
That ended the day people started strapping bombs to themselves, or crack addicts pricking people with HIV infected needles.

I do not blame any police officer that chooses a method to take down someone where they do not have to put themselves at risk, especially since these methods exist.

Read the trial of the crazy greyhound bus dude, they tasered him several times, and good for them.

Mugen EvOlutioN

03-03-2009, 01:47 PM

werd

tats exactly wat i felt

seriously, just because a cop has to cover their fuck up so they have to lie? lie after lie? cover up the media? N plz, who u tryin to fool?

god damn
:rolleyes: staplers... :haha::haha: first time i hear tat shit in my life

guess back in high school if i was walking aronud in the hallway with a stapler in my hand i will get suspended and a group of SWAT will be taking down my ass i suppose

taylor192

03-03-2009, 01:48 PM

The guy was in the airport for 10 fucking hrs. U guys should try that out next time ur thr.
Tom Hanks did it. :thumbsup:

I've spent 8 hrs waiting on standby during a snowstorm in Chicago. YVR is heaven compared to OHare.

Jason00S2000

03-03-2009, 02:03 PM

That ended the day people started strapping bombs to themselves, or crack addicts pricking people with HIV infected needles.

I do not blame any police officer that chooses a method to take down someone where they do not have to put themselves at risk, especially since these methods exist.

Read the trial of the crazy greyhound bus dude, they tasered him several times, and good for them.

Muslim crazed suicide bomber/DTES crackhead with needle != Angry guy with stapler.

Yes, because decapitating someone is similar to holding a stapler and speaking loudly.

I suppose then, you could not blame me, and many others, when we have 0 faith and 0 trust in the police. They are just as bad as gangsters, if not worse. Police get off from power and control over others, where as gangsters usually only lust after money.

Jason00S2000

03-03-2009, 02:05 PM

BoneThug

03-03-2009, 02:14 PM

^

In reality, the only difference between a gang and a corporation are some laws

The only thing keeping the police from becoming a gestapo / the next SS, is a few laws that protect our rights.

If these cops are found not guilty, be prepared, cops will get a LOT more trigger happy when they know they can get away with murder scot-free.

i dont think any cop is going to go "sweet our buddy got off so now we can all do what we want with impunity!!!" real life doesnt really end up working like that. just cause someone didnt get fired doesnt mean the next person who does it also wont be. if anything the next person will be extra fucked. this sets a precedent for nothing.

Noir

03-03-2009, 02:21 PM

In reality, the only difference between a gang and a corporation are some laws

The only thing keeping the police from becoming a gestapo / the next SS, is a few laws that protect our rights.

If these cops are found not guilty, be prepared, cops will get a LOT more trigger happy when they know they can get away with murder scot-free.

WTF??? Now I understand why you incite so much animosity from CivicBlues.

All your statements above are nothing but mere exaggerations to push your anti-establishmentarianistic agendas. They only hold a small margin of truth to it at best for a supposed well-travelled person. Maybe it's time to get off the drugs Jase.

taylor192

03-03-2009, 02:30 PM

Muslim crazed suicide bomber/DTES crackhead with needle != Angry guy with stapler.

Yes, because decapitating someone is similar to holding a stapler and speaking loudly.

I suppose then, you could not blame me, and many others, when we have 0 faith and 0 trust in the police. They are just as bad as gangsters, if not worse. Police get off from power and control over others, where as gangsters usually only lust after money.
Can you tell the difference between someone with a bomb strapped to their chest or not? Would you walk the DTES at night?

Have you ever gone on a ride-along to see what the life of a cop is like? If not, please don't judging. Ride-alongs are easily booked, and an interesting experience, take one then come back and comment.

You have 0 faith in the police, probably cause you've been ticketed for some illegal mods to your ride that you thought the police should overlook. I have the utmost faith in the police and have been well-served by them when I have needed them. Treat them with respect and you get it back, treat them like assholes, and well you get tasered.

Tell me why the police should have to deal with a crazy man and a stapler at all? and why this went on for as long as it did after the guy started throwing furniture. Lets not forget the wreckage surrounding the guy that indicates he's been violent recently, its not just about a stapler as those here and the media would suggest.

This man deserved to be tasered, yet not tasered 5 times. The taser did its job, taking down the man, while the officer did not do his job and use his training to stop the use of the taser.

Jason00S2000

03-03-2009, 02:54 PM

WTF??? Now I understand why you incite so much animosity from CivicBlues.

All your statements above are nothing but mere exaggerations to push your anti-establishmentarianistic agendas. They only hold a small margin of truth to it at best for a supposed well-travelled person. Maybe it's time to get off the drugs Jase.

Noir, do some research on pre-WW2 Germany and you can see how, little by little, rights are taken away and the people eventually fear and distrust the police.

Not to mention how drug money has already been used to corrupt the political system here:

http://lailayuile.wordpress.com/2009/02/13/gang-violence-government-corruption-and-the-bc-legislature-sounds-like-an-old-school-mob-movie-no-just-business-as-usual-in-victoria/

Keep in mind alot of what I say is a bit tongue in cheek to bait CivicBlues to give me a spanking. I like to fire people up by saying some pretty out-there things, but I do temper what I say with a couple grains of honest truth here and there ;)

Jason00S2000

03-03-2009, 03:07 PM

Can you tell the difference between someone with a bomb strapped to their chest or not? Would you walk the DTES at night?

Yes, and yes.

First off, people who strap bombs to their chests are either tamils or muslims.

Find me a case where one wasn't?

Have you ever gone on a ride-along to see what the life of a cop is like? If not, please don't judging. Ride-alongs are easily booked, and an interesting experience, take one then come back and comment.

I have actually, and I dated a cop when I was 19.

Police work was far easier a few decades ago. Far, far easier. Do some research on how violence in society has skyrocketed, the family unit broken down, and violence as mainstream entertainment:

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/295/5564/2377

UFC, anyone?

Not to mention that there is a lot less respect for laws, due to the illegality of what people perceive as harmless. ( Marijuana use )

There is a lot of people who have written and spoke on this subject.

You have 0 faith in the police, probably cause you've been ticketed for some illegal mods to your ride that you thought the police should overlook. I have the utmost faith in the police and have been well-served by them when I have needed them. Treat them with respect and you get it back, treat them like assholes, and well you get tasered.

No you silly goose, I base this on the fact that in the news you are constantly bombarded with evidence that police abuse their powers.

I have been fucked over by a short-man-syndrome cop before, and my ex girlfriend's friend who is a cop, is a drunk driver who has been caught and released without charge many times.

There are some respectable police out there for sure, people who want the world to be a better place, but the system is broken and merely fuels the corruption we see.

Tell me why the police should have to deal with a crazy man and a stapler at all? and why this went on for as long as it did after the guy started throwing furniture. Lets not forget the wreckage surrounding the guy that indicates he's been violent recently, its not just about a stapler as those here and the media would suggest.

Ever been through customs man? They are failed cops with chips on their shoulders. If they don't like you, you're fucked. They'll just make you sit there for hours and ignore you as punishment if they don't like your haircut.

Ever heard of the Lightspeed girls?

I came back from Phoenix Forum once, with a video tape of the chicks bouncing naked on a trampoline, the customs officers reviewed it, and then 4 approached me and started calling me "twisted" and "sick" among other things. They asked me if I liked young girls, and hinted that I was some sort of pervert. I told them to FUCK OFF because they're all obviously over 18, and in at least 1:00 of the video YOU CAN SEE TWO PHOENIX COPS WATCHING THE SHOW TOO. I was held in customs for 4 hours while they were trying to figure out what to do with me after trying to berate me for being some sort of pervert. IDIOTS.

This man deserved to be tasered, yet not tasered 5 times. The taser did its job, taking down the man, while the officer did not do his job and use his training to stop the use of the taser.

How about just 4 cops with clubs? Dude, I could take out that fat old angry polak myself, let alone with a club or 3 guys helping me.

It was at least involuntary manslaughter and those cops need to be fired and jailed.

Jason00S2000

03-03-2009, 03:09 PM

If life were a D&D game, my alignment would be true neutral

Ok ok, neutral evil :D

Noir

03-03-2009, 03:29 PM

Noir, do some research on pre-WW2 Germany and you can see how, little by little, rights are taken away and the people eventually fear and distrust the police.

What rights are we taking away from the tourists and immigrants that frequent the YVR? We're certainly not looting them and shipping them off to concentrations camps in the interior.

We're not holding them to ultimatums of absolute compliance. They're not immediately tazered for merely arousing suspicion or for breaches of regulations. The tazering of Dziekanski was the result of an escalated incident.

Not to mention how drug money has already been used to corrupt the political system here:

http://lailayuile.wordpress.com/2009/02/13/gang-violence-government-corruption-and-the-bc-legislature-sounds-like-an-old-school-mob-movie-no-just-business-as-usual-in-victoria/

Who the hell is Laila Yuile? She's a journalist and blogger and I'd hardly consider her qualified to be an expert. Granted that no government is immune to corruption, but we're still far from likes of Columbia, Panama and Mexico that you seem to equate Canada to.

Keep in mind alot of what I say is a bit tongue in cheek to bait CivicBlues to give me a spanking. I like to fire people up by saying some pretty out-there things, but I do temper what I say with a couple grains of honest truth here and there ;)

Keep it up, I quite enjoy both your exchanges to each other. I do see those little bits of truths in your statements though, so don't worry, it's not like its completely overlooked or discounted. ;)

SumAznGuy

03-03-2009, 04:00 PM

Keep it up, I quite enjoy both your exchanges to each other. I do see those little bits of truths in your statements though, so don't worry, it's not like its completely overlooked or discounted. ;)

Get a room!!!! Dammmm it!!!! :gayfight:

Lomac

03-03-2009, 04:08 PM

Yes, and yes.

First off, people who strap bombs to their chests are either tamils or muslims.

Find me a case where one wasn't?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article598536.ece

SumAznGuy

03-03-2009, 04:11 PM

How about just 4 cops with clubs? Dude, I could take out that fat old angry polak myself, let alone with a club or 3 guys helping me.

It was at least involuntary manslaughter and those cops need to be fired and jailed.

This is where part of the whole debate lies. So you think you are big and strong. So you think you are a tough guy and take down that one polak? Would you risk your life to show to us how big your e-penis is? How many officers have died in the line of duty? How many officers have been hurt from fighting with a perp? Police procedures have been put in place so that these officers can avoid such unnecessary risks.

Take for example getting pulled over on the side of a busy highway? You ever wonder why they have flashing red and blue lights on their cars? Ever wonder why they pull over and have half of their cars over the line into the other lanes?

By charging them with involuntary man slaughter, would it be fair to charge the officer with dangerous driving, assult with a dangerous weapon when he used his police SUV to run over the dranged driver of the stolen 5 ton farm truck who was driving eratically down Hwy 1 a few months back?

This last one truely opens a great big can of worms. Charging them with involuntary manslaughter while doing their jobs on duty. Hmmmm For the guys who say tazered 5 times, in total the guy was 31 seconds in the 5 zaps. So, is that normal for police protocol? I dunno, I was never trained. Maybe most people are tazered for 30 seconds, all in one zapping?
In the end, this mark will show up on those 4 officer's permenant record and that mark will show up everytime they go for an interview for a promotion. To fire them, it's not like they broke police procedure so that will never fly. If they did break procedure, then the media would have told us already.

Jason00S2000

03-03-2009, 04:13 PM

This is where part of the whole debate lies. So you think you are big and strong. So you think you are a tough guy and take down that one polak? Would you risk your life to show to us how big your e-penis is? How many officers have died in the line of duty? How many officers have been hurt from fighting with a perp? Police procedures have been put in place so that these officers can avoid such unnecessary risks.

IT WAS A FUCKING STAPLER.

Jason00S2000

03-03-2009, 04:15 PM

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article598536.ece

Lomac, did you not see:

"In one of the most extraordinary tales of Islamic radicalisation"

right at the start?

SumAznGuy

03-03-2009, 04:20 PM

IT WAS A FUCKING STAPLER.

And what are staplers made of? Sugar and spice?

And for the record, there was that dude on Grandville and 14th ave way back who had a pad lock on the end of the chain. That fuktard was gunned down by the police. I don't see no out cry for him.

Jason00S2000

03-03-2009, 04:28 PM

And what are staplers made of? Sugar and spice?

And for the record, there was that dude on Grandville and 14th ave way back who had a pad lock on the end of the chain. That fuktard was gunned down by the police. I don't see no out cry for him.

Hey Azy Guy

How about this, since a stapler, in your mind, is as threatening as a chain with a padlock on the end ( otherwise known as a flail, an actual medieval weapon )

You and I, we meet somewhere, you bring the biggest, baddest stapler you can find, I'll bring a chain with a nice metal padlock on the end. We can find and see who wins! Sounds fair? ;)

Jason00S2000

03-03-2009, 04:29 PM

And what are staplers made of? Sugar and spice?

Was it a london drugs type plastic stapler, or one of those staplers I remember from elementary school that were like the size of a toaster and made of cast iron?

Noir

03-03-2009, 04:35 PM

Lomac, did you not see:

"In one of the most extraordinary tales of Islamic radicalisation"

right at the start?

Well, you did say...

Yes, and yes.

First off, people who strap bombs to their chests are either tamils or muslims.

Find me a case where one wasn't?

You were only asking for one. :)

SumAznGuy

03-03-2009, 04:37 PM

Hey Azy Guy

How about this, since a stapler, in your mind, is as threatening as a chain with a padlock on the end ( otherwise known as a flail, an actual medieval weapon )

You and I, we meet somewhere, you bring the biggest, baddest stapler you can find, I'll bring a chain with a nice metal padlock on the end. We can find and see who wins! Sounds fair? ;)

Sure. I will bring the one I use at work. It has an extended arm and uses the industrial grade cardboard staples.

You will be carrying the tiny chain that they use to keep the pens from being stolen. The chain cannot be longer than 2 inches, and the pad lock is the tiny sized ones that come with suitcases. :eek:

Hondaracer

03-03-2009, 04:38 PM

I think that your a little too hung up on the stapler, who gives a shit even if it was a stuffed teddy bear, it were his actions that ultimately cost him his life and in a place like an airport those actions are not taken lightly

Watch an hour of cops Jason and I guarantee you, you will see 3-5 incidents that were recorded, approved by the cops for use on the show, and shown in that hour that are 10000 times worse then this dumb ass polak

Ppl get tasered on cops for taking their hand off the car, this idiots actions waranted everything he got

SumAznGuy

03-03-2009, 04:40 PM

Was it a london drugs type plastic stapler, or one of those staplers I remember from elementary school that were like the size of a toaster and made of cast iron?

Maybe it was one of those Red Swingline ones from "office space"?

Excuse me, I believe you have my stapler....

Jason00S2000

03-03-2009, 04:58 PM

Well, you did say...

You were only asking for one. :)

Yeah and he provided a case where the woman was a muslim, a white, western muslim, but a muslim

I know the Japanese killed themselves during WW2 using kamikaze attacks, but aside from tamils and muslims I don't know of any other particular groups that have used suicide bomb tactics?

Jason00S2000

03-03-2009, 05:00 PM

Ppl get tasered on cops for taking their hand off the car, this idiots actions waranted everything he got

What's next, getting tasered for photographing them?

http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=836675

Extremely dangerous to be in a society where being in possession of video or photographic evidence of police abuse, is a crime.

impactX

03-03-2009, 05:06 PM

People suddenly became Use of Force experts after Dziekanski's death.

What the RCMP did as shown in the video is pretty standard for an arrest to be made. Police didn't show up to have tea with Dziekanski, they were there to make an arrest, possibly for "Mischief under $5000" or "Breach of the Peace". Dziekanski had the choice to put his hands in the back and get cuffed. Instead, he chose to walk away, agitated, with a stapler in his hand. That pretty much rules out a physical take down unless the officers want to have staples jammed in their necks. OC spray is really a hit or miss weapon depending on the subject, the mist-type spray wasn't an option in an enclosed area. The best force option was the taser to generate compliance in order to restrain Dziekanski.

The whole Canadian Use of Force Theory is based on "when the use of a lower level of force is ineffective and the use of a higher level of force is unjustified." The use of taser is considered to be a low level use of force, lower than the intermediate weapons such as baton.

Things to think about: When you go to Poland, get stuck/detained at the airport for over 10 hours, and no one at the airport speaks a word of English, are you going to throw things around? Are you going to walk away with a stapler in your hand when the uniformed officers are trying to arrest you? And are you going to resist arrest?

Personally, I think it's unfortunate that Dziekanski lost his life over this incident when the taser is meant to save lives.

Durrann1984

03-03-2009, 07:27 PM