[Timpo]

GM Loses Almost $31 Billion In 2008, How Will It Ever Repay Federal Loans?
Agent009 submitted on 2/26/2009 Official AutoSpies Timestamp: 12:17:44 PM

General Motors Corp.

today reported a $30.9 billion loss last year, the troubled automaker's fourth straight annual loss, as deteriorating economic and market conditions and questions about the company's viability continued.

Its fourth-quarter net loss last year was $9.6 billion. For the quarter, GM said it lost $15.71 per share, compared to a net loss of $1.5 billion, or $2.70 a share for the same period a year earlier.

The results underscore GM's need for up to $16.6 billion in additional federal loans, a case chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner will make later today during a meeting with President Obama's autos team, which is overseeing the automaker's restructuring and federal loan repayment. GM already has received $13.4 billion, which helped the troubled automaker avoid running out of money in December and survive the weakest sales market since the early 1980s.

[Timpo]

GM posts $9.6 billion fourth quarter loss, $30.9 billion loss for the year
Posted Today, 9:03 AM by Ralph Hanson

http://www.motorauthority.com/content/thumbs/g/m/gmlogorencenbuilding_main630_02-0122-630x360.jpg

General Motors today announced its fourth quarter and calendar year 2008 financial results, confirming what everyone already knew – that the ailing carmaker is haemorrhaging cash by the billions and is unlikely to turn a profit anytime soon. Citing a dramatic deterioration in global economy, declining consumer confidence, and record lows for vehicle sales both in the U.S. and aboard, GM posted a net loss of $9.6 billion for the fourth quarter of 2008.

This brings the combined loss for all of 2008 to a staggering $30.9 billion, however, this figure shrinks to $16.8 billion if you ignore one-off and special items. This is in stark contrast to the relatively small adjusted net loss of $1.9 billion realized in 2007.

Total revenue for 2008 was $149 billion, compared with $180 billion in 2007. This was on sales of 8.35 million vehicles, down 11%, or 1.01 million vehicles, and was driven by an industry-wide contraction in global vehicle sales. According to GM’s own figures, global vehicle sales for the entire auto industry in 2008 were down 5%, or 3.6 million vehicles, versus 2007 levels.

“2008 was an extremely difficult year for the U.S. and global auto markets, especially the second half, ” GM CEO Rick Wagoner said in a statement.“ These conditions created a very challenging environment for GM and other automakers, and led us to take further aggressive and difficult measures to restructure our business.

It will be interesting to see if these latest results will have an impact on the final decision expected from the Obama administration at the end of March regarding the payback of bailout funds by Detroit’s carmakers.

[Timpo]

GM Losses Continue to Mount
Date posted: 02-26-2009

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com//media/il/news/2009/0226/gmlogo3.500.jpg

DETROIT — General Motors has announced losses of $9.6 billion in the fourth quarter and $30.9 billion for the year as the ravaged automaker lurches ever closer to bankruptcy.

GM last week told the federal government that it may need up to $30 billion in government loans to survive and that a bankruptcy filing could cost taxpayers as much as $100 billion.

The automaker has racked up four straight years of losses, but 2008 was far and away the most dismal year yet.

GM saw worldwide revenues plummet 34 percent in the fourth quarter, to $30.8 billion from $46.8 billion a year earlier. Revenues for the full year tumbled 17 percent, to $149 billion from $180 billion in 2007.

The company said it continues to burn through cash at a furious pace — $6.2 billion in the fourth quarter, on top of $6.9 billion in the third quarter.

GM already has received $13.4 billion in government loans, but last week said it needs another $16.6 billion to survive. Unless it is able to significantly slow its cash-burn rate, however, the additional funds could be exhausted by the end of the year.

A GM bankruptcy ultimately may be the only way to salvage some remnants of the company. — Paul Lienert, Correspondent

[Timpo]

oops, I thought 3 articles may not be necessary so I was trying to delete 2 of them but apparently I have no authority to do so...

[cococly]

When was the last time there's some good news from GM?? It's always loosing everything they have..

Meanwhile, I lost $20 at Starlight casino last weekend :(

I also won $40 at RiverRock :)

[!Yaminashi]

When was the last time there's some good news from GM?? It's always loosing everything they have..

Meanwhile, I lost $20 at Starlight casino last weekend :(

I also won $40 at RiverRock :)

Shit you made more profit than GM :lol

[Adsdeman]

Shit you made more profit than GM :lol

lol, thats funny!

[Nvasion]

die dueck!!

[asian_XL]

30bilion is nothing...AIG is worse.

[orange7]

When was the last time there's some good news from GM?? It's always loosing everything they have..

Meanwhile, I lost $20 at Starlight casino last weekend :(

I also won $40 at RiverRock :)

Shit you made more profit than GM :lol


HAHAHAAH!!! this was actually funny.. :haha:

[tool001]

lost? lost where .. did somebody find it yet?

if they woke up to reality long time ago, this wouldn't have happened. I think long time ago -1 -2 years ago, in the news , i saw a docu. about how people prefer to buy japanese as oppose to american. I think that should have been wake up call.

poor management and poor product, thats how u lose money

[LowTEC]

if they woke up to reality long time ago, this wouldn't have happened. I think long time ago -1 -2 years ago, in the news , i saw a docu. about how people prefer to buy japanese as oppose to american. I think that should have been wake up call.

poor management and poor product, thats how u lose money

You do know Toyota sold 1,843,669 cars in 08. Chevrolet sold 1,790,519 cars right? right?

It's not like no one buys their product, it's the union and overhead cost that is dragging them down, get your fact straight before you spilling out rumors like Timpo

[Carl Johnson]

UAW has been with the company for like 50 years or something now, so why is it GM really starting to show its competitive disadvantages in just the last 5 years? Is it really all union's fault or does it have something to do the of the management and their products? I think the latter is more like it.

[asian_XL]

You do know Toyota sold 1,843,669 cars in 08. Chevrolet sold 1,790,519 cars right? right?

It's not like no one buys their product, it's the union and overhead cost that is dragging them down, get your fact straight before you spilling out rumors like Timpo


Toyota sells their cars in almost every country on earth.
GM...only half.

Timpo is not 100% wrong this time...american like domestic cars, cause they
are designed according to their taste. You see NA has Toyota Tundra, and
not the rest of the world.

[Mancini]

The results underscore the need to let go of a dying dog and plug the drain.

[Harvey Specter]

What a bloody disgrace. How much more tax payers money will Obama paddle to GM so he can protect his votes (the unions).

[jackmeister]

UAW has been with the company for like 50 years or something now, so why is it GM really starting to show its competitive disadvantages in just the last 5 years? Is it really all union's fault or does it have something to do the of the management and their products? I think the latter is more like it.

1 employee for every 3 pensioners

[tool001]

You do know Toyota sold 1,843,669 cars in 08. Chevrolet sold 1,790,519 cars right? right?

It's not like no one buys their product, it's the union and overhead cost that is dragging them down, get your fact straight before you spilling out rumors like Timpo


rumors. bad product . poor managment,, thats no rumor.. get ur head out of ur ass

btw, toyota sold close to 9 mil cars worldwide in 08,, get ur facts straight.. ;)

[LowTEC]

rumors. bad product . poor managment,, thats no rumor.. get ur head out of ur ass

btw, toyota sold close to 9 mil cars worldwide in 08,, get ur facts straight.. ;)

"In 2008, GM sold 8.35 million cars and trucks globally under the following brands: Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GMC, GM Daewoo, Holden, Hummer, Opel, Pontiac, Saab, Saturn, Vauxhall and Wuling. GM's largest national market is the U.S., followed by China, Brazil, the United Kingdom, Canada, Russia and Germany. GM's OnStar subsidiary is the industry leader in vehicle safety, security and information services. More information on GM can be found at www.gm.com."

Fact remains, it is NOT that no one buys GM product, unless you call 8.35 million people = zero. That was my original argument point. Bad product? Very subjective, I wouldn't say the lastest Z06, ZR-1, Caddy's are all that bad. In fact the ZR-1 doing extremely good if not dominates pretty much every performance category out of any mass production car in the world, regardless of price. That sounds really bad doesn't it. Look at Timpo's beloved GTR, now that's a fucked up product right there

Another example: mighty toyota product (http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_engine.html)

http://www.freep.com/uploads/images/2008/12/1223_toyota.jpg
Oh noes? It is nothing we don't know about, but just wanting state, shit happens.
Futher more:
“The environment we’re in is extremely tough,” President Katsuaki Watanabe told reporters today in Nagoya. “We’re facing an unprecedented emergency situation. Unfortunately, we can’t see the bottom.”
“Toyota’s cost-cutting can’t match plummeting sales,” said Koichi Ogawa, chief portfolio manager at Tokyo-based Daiwa SB Investments Ltd., which manages $28 billion. “Everyone is getting hurt with this situation.”

Just because Timpo keeps bashing GM every single day with a new post, doesn't mean no one wants a GM product. Now he is bashing Hyundai everyday, doesn't mean Hyundai isn't glowing big

which part of my fact is not straight?

Back to reality, there is not much GM can do as long as the UAW keeps dragging them down to the grave, or perhaps net billions if not because of them. You think the management wouldn't want to get rid of those lazy fucktards and hire people that actually work? Thanx to the Union again. Stephen Harper foreseen the problem and tried to save the economy by shaving the power of our union, and see what happened. :( If only he had succeeded last year, our Ontario GM facility PROBABLY (probably!) wouldn't have to close and losing 60,000 job positions.

BTW, want me to give you a hand to pull your head out of Timpo's ass?

[Carl Johnson]

First of all, GM is not the largest maker of automotive anymore, that position was taken over by Toyota in December 2008. Secondly, you are giving the management way too much credit. Face it up man these guy blow it up. You can't say it's all Union's fault when you have two years loss totalling up to some $68 Billion. And Taken straight out your article of how many brands they have: Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GMC, GM Daewoo, Holden, Hummer, Opel, Pontiac, Saab, Saturn, Vauxhall and Wuling. They are like the Citigroup of Automotive Industry, way to much (inferior) products and business resources spread way too thin.

So is the union partly at fault? sure they got a little greedy. But you have to look at the whole picture, what is happening right now is the consequence of their bad-management and bad products over the decades. The economic crisis only quicken the process.

[orange7]

not sure if this help, but i would buy a zr-1 if i have the cash on me..

it's quite some power for it's price..

[tool001]

ha .so u are saying, take away the union and problem solved. get off it,
they have so many brands, but still cant compete with japanese automakers.

its all management. (wasn't it big when they showed up in Wash. in private jets)

and as far as brand integrity goes, how many people on this board would take a GM over equivalent japanaese/european brand.


lol, keep on dreamin guy.. its ur head in ur ass all the way. maybe a bit further in, try jiggling it a bit with lube, i might get loose

[LowTEC]

First of all, GM is not the largest maker of automotive anymore, that position was taken over by Toyota in December 2008. Secondly, you are giving the management way too much credit. Face it up man these guy blow it up. You can't say it's all Union's fault when you have two years loss totalling up to some $68 Billion. And Taken straight out your article of how many brands they have: Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GMC, GM Daewoo, Holden, Hummer, Opel, Pontiac, Saab, Saturn, Vauxhall and Wuling. They are like the Citigroup of Automotive Industry, way to much (inferior) products and business resources spread way too thin.

So is the union partly at fault? sure they got a little greedy. But you have to look at the whole picture, what is happening right now is the consequence of their bad-management and bad products over the decades. The economic crisis only quicken the process.

Now, part of that I can agree on, they should've close most of the low-volume brands long time ago, but then I guess they couldn't risk having rumors of shrinking of the entire business; stock starts to slide and shareholder start pointing fingers and more rumors coming out of tards like Timpo. I mean, we all know how easy it is to teach a CEO how to manage the 2nd biggest car company in the world thru RS with a keyboard right. Specially we are not the ones that get our both hands and legs tied up by the union crowd

[LowTEC]

ha .so u are saying, take away the union and problem solved. get off it
"And make no mistake, GM is in a horrible bind. That $1.1 billion loss in the first quarter doesn't begin to tell the whole story. The carmaker is saddled with a $1,600-per-vehicle handicap in so-called legacy costs, mostly retiree health and pension benefits"
"The UAW could find any number of ways to strike key supply factories and gum up the company. Wagoner knows that firsthand. While president of GM North America in 1998, he played hardball with the UAW over a dispute involving two union locals in Flint, Mich. Those workers, who made parts needed by every GM assembly plant, struck for 54 days over what they said were local issues. That shut down the entire company, costing it $2 billion and nine percentage points of market share, though GM recovered all but a point of that by yearend."

So I would says yes, if they able to get rid of the union and pensioners, they would have had a very big chance to solve the problem if not making net profit


and as far as brand integrity goes, how many people on this board would take a GM over equivalent japanaese/european brand.

That's right, we all know the entire world circles around the RS board, and us, RSer represents the rest of the 6.7 billion population, I'm sure.

Also GM is going down solely because there was only 8 million+ ppl bought GM bad products last year world wide (while Toyota sold the same amount) which they don't represent any one because, again, they don't get on RS, so none of them counted, I should've known Better. :rolleyes:

BTW, you started with the ass comment but it doesn't help you in anyway, so please just quit it and admit you are no difference than Timpo

[CanadaGoose]

I make more moola then one of America's hugest corporations

that's going in my autobiography

[Timpo]

I wouldn't say the lastest Z06, ZR-1, Caddy's are all that bad. In fact the ZR-1 doing extremely good if not dominates pretty much every performance category out of any mass production car in the world, regardless of price. That sounds really bad doesn't it. Look at Timpo's beloved GTR, now that's a fucked up product right there

According to Nissan, they did not build GT-R for profit...I think it was more like a status thing.

while GM make some impressive cars like Z06, ZR-1 or CTS-V, those vehicles aren't contributing to GM's profit.

Just like you, I have a feeling GM exectives are too occupied with performance vehicles. Seriously, who gives a shit about ZR-1? maybe car enthusiats? ok well that is not much of market right there. How much $ did they make by building ZR-1? I mean how profitable is a product like ZR-1? I bet Toyota and Honda made whole a lot more money by building Civics and Prius.
Also the new Honda Insight will sell like hot cake considering how it is going to be priced. Considering Honda's reputation of building fuel efficient reliable cars.

Those millions of $, not to mention millions of hours of time, that they have spent on Z06, ZR-1 or CTS-V, they should've spent on hybrids. You can blame on UAW as much as you want as we all know the high wage cost and pension plans are dragging the business down, but I think the management has some sort of problem too. They have been saying how they got Chevy Volt Concept, but if they were not occupied with those performance vehicles(including upcoming over 400hp Camaro), they could have released the Volt by now. In fact, that is what Honda and Toyota are doing, they react to customers' demand pretty quickly.
From what I can see, GM can not even keep operating, without government money they could brankrupt like what? tomorrow morning? If they don't have enough money to actually release the vehicle...maybe the Volt might just end up being something similar to the EV-1 electric car.

[tonyvu]

GM can lick my middle nut....

[Carl Johnson]

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2009/autos/0902/gallery.consumer_reports_top_picks/index.html

Check out the latest consumer report on Auto 2009. GM has won 1 spot out of the 10, and that only received a test score of 74. The testers were probably thinking well we better put at least one American car in there... so Chevrolet Avalanche it is.

[!LittleDragon]

UAW has been with the company for like 50 years or something now, so why is it GM really starting to show its competitive disadvantages in just the last 5 years? Is it really all union's fault or does it have something to do the of the management and their products? I think the latter is more like it.

It takes decades for people to start retiring and start collecting pension. Someone who started working for GM 50 years ago wouldn't start costing the company money until recently when they retire.

[!LittleDragon]

According to Nissan, they did not build GT-R for profit...I think it was more like a status thing.

while GM make some impressive cars like Z06, ZR-1 or CTS-V, those vehicles aren't contributing to GM's profit.

Just like you, I have a feeling GM exectives are too occupied with performance vehicles. Seriously, who gives a shit about ZR-1? maybe car enthusiats? ok well that is not much of market right there. How much $ did they make by building ZR-1? I mean how profitable is a product like ZR-1? I bet Toyota and Honda made whole a lot more money by building Civics and Prius.
Also the new Honda Insight will sell like hot cake considering how it is going to be priced. Considering Honda's reputation of building fuel efficient reliable cars.

Those millions of $, not to mention millions of hours of time, that they have spent on Z06, ZR-1 or CTS-V, they should've spent on hybrids. You can blame on UAW as much as you want as we all know the high wage cost and pension plans are dragging the business down, but I think the management has some sort of problem too. They have been saying how they got Chevy Volt Concept, but if they were not occupied with those performance vehicles(including upcoming over 400hp Camaro), they could have released the Volt by now. In fact, that is what Honda and Toyota are doing, they react to customers' demand pretty quickly.
From what I can see, GM can not even keep operating, without government money they could brankrupt like what? tomorrow morning? If they don't have enough money to actually release the vehicle...maybe the Volt might just end up being something similar to the EV-1 electric car.

The Z06, ZR-1 and CTS-V are advertisment products to sell more Corvettes and CTS'. I'm sure you know how a halo product works right?

I'm sure the domestics would have more hybrids in their lineup if freakin Honda and Toyota didn't hold patents on everything. Ford didn't even bother to develop hybrid technology because they were afraid of a patent infringment lawsuit. The hybrids that Ford has uses Toyota hybrid technology in a deal that sent Ford's diesel technology over to Toyota. If Honda and Toyota actually gave a crap for the environment, they would allow other manufactures to use their hybrid technology for free rather than license it out. Volvo for example holds the patents on the 3 point seatbelt but they don't charge other car manufacturers for using it because it saves lives. With the environment at stake, don't you think it would benefit everyone if Honda and Toyota shared their technology with everyone?

[Carl Johnson]

Just a little update on GM:

http://www.dailytech.com/GM+Says+It+Will+Pull+Bankruptcy+Trigger+Unless+It+ Gets+More+Money/article14493.htm

Looks like their days are numbered now unless Government pull something out

[wasabisashimi]

"Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GMC, GM Daewoo, Holden, Hummer, Opel, Pontiac, Saab, Saturn, Vauxhall and Wuling "

Will someone tell me why the FUCK do you need so many sub-branding to a company.
Can't it be just " GM (cheaper division), vs Cadillac (luxury division)

[wasabisashimi]

PS, who in the right mind will buy Saab?, Daewoo, Isuzu.,...etc.. Close out those brands already.

[taylor192]

For the record: I would buy a Malibu if I was looking for a mid-sized family sedan, and would nolonger by a Camry (and I've owned a Camry in the past).

[taylor192]

Salaries/benefits only make up 10% of GM's costs. GM needs to do a lot of soul searching and start making cuts across the board to trim the fat, they won't get anough from the union alone.

All domestics suffer from unfair taxation. Imports need to be taxed appropriately since these companies avoid many corporate taxes by having their headquarters elsewhere. Otherwise we will have outsourced everything, cause not only is labour cheaper, companies can pay low taxes to produce items elsewhere and minimal sales taxes to sell it here. The North American tax model is broken, we need to start paying the true price of the items we purchase from overseas.

[rcoccultwar]

Can it really be that bad to just file for bankruptcy:confused: It cant be that bad can it?

[too_slow]

^If Toyota declares bankruptcy in 2012, would you still walk into a Toyota dealership to buy a 2012 Supra?

[Mancini]

^If Toyota declares bankruptcy in 2012, would you still walk into a Toyota dealership to buy a 2012 Supra?

I know you're making an analogy but it triggered a thought.

About 10 years ago someone once told me that if Toyota were to cease production, but kept paying their employees, they could do so for 11 years. If so, they're well positioned to ride out this storm.

[Timpo]

Toyota haters make up all sorts of stories.
People are making up "Toyota Bailout" articles.

http://www.autospies.com/news/Talk-of-a-Toyota-Bailout-is-Ridiculous-and-Absurd-41636/

[orange7]

^If Toyota declares bankruptcy in 2012, would you still walk into a Toyota dealership to buy a 2012 Supra?

if i can get one for $100, then yes i would

[LowTEC]

1. Toyota is doing great Toyota is doing great (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JxvQJKP2VA)

2. Toyota doesn't seem to be affected one bit (http://www.autoblog.com/tag/toyota+layoffs/)

3. "Toyota is on track to post an operating loss of $4.95 billion for the year ending March 31, its first-ever group-wide operating loss.

The company last week announced a series of measures designed to confront the worst automotive slump in decades.

The measures, which will apply to San Antonio and other U.S. assembly plants and parts operations in Indiana, Alabama, Missouri and West Virginia, include cutting salaried employee bonuses, slashing executive pay by as much as 30 percent and cutting pay for some factory workers by 10 percent by reducing hours."

[hk20000]

whatever man this is what I am foreseeing:

1. more and more people lose jobs
2. but there will still be a need of vehicles to move people
3. People will continue to drive beat up beaters for the time being, while a small percentage will continue their car buying habit. Second hand trading will boom but new cars, as long as they are still priced the same way, use gas the same way and cost the same to run, will not be seeing many customers.
4. Whoever comes up with something LIKE a Mini of yesteryear with the soul of "a car for the masses" will come out ahead.

In any case I can't see GM coming into this foreseeable decline.... Toyota automotive division may be declining but they are also in many other industries.

And then some obscure brand (I'm thinking about brands like TATA, DACIA and that kind of companies with new management that is more fit to change to the market) that figures this game out will make money quickly instantaneously during this time, and then get bought out by another existing larger firm, in turn raking in profit for that larger firm.

Let's see how the game plays out.

[synchrocone]

I make more moola then one of America's hugest corporations

that's going in my autobiography

Are you saying you and your wife are both making $26.74 an hour?

[synchrocone]

I make more moola then one of America's hugest corporations

that's going in my autobiography

Are you implying that you and your wife are both making $26.74 an hour?