[the_law82]

So, I've been considering an mr2 for some time now as a summer car. I am considering a turbo version.

I have read lots of information on the net, including on mr2oc, about the snap oversteer.

I know about the differences in 93+ editions, but those are rare and expensive.

I'd just like to hear some experiences and opinions on the topic and how I should prepare for these situations (driving school)?

It will strictly be a summer (sunny day) car, perhaps to the track a few times. I will have my 6th gen celica for those nasty days. My assumptions are that if I keep the rubber up to par and drive sanely, I should be okay.

Thanks for your input.

PS. I have never driven a RWD car before, let alone a MR car.

[Peturbo]

To respond to the feedback they had received, Toyota changed the 1993 model to include wider rear tires and changed the rear suspension, so that the car would be less prone to "snap oversteer".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_MR2
MR2's are sweet. Hope to grab one myself one day.

[the_law82]

Thanks for the quick reply.

I have read a lot of the available information online.

Just looking for some additional personal experiences/opinions to add to my research.

[mmmk]

I wouldn't worry too much about oversteer if you're just planning to drive the car on sunny days. You should be fine.

[«CD^^®»]

It is more common in MR's 'n they drive different to RWD's too. Common thing that causes it is people lifting off the throttle in the corners which makes the tail light.

[the_law82]

Ya I know about the counter intuitive throttle around corners. Chances are I'll be a big grandma driver around corners.

[InvisibleSoul]

If you're going to be a grandma around corners on sunny days, it's probably not going to be a problem. I've driven an RX8 never broke the rear wheels loose at any point, but managed to do it with an MR2 Spyder pretty easily on wet pavement under moderate throttle...

[SuperSlowSS]

I was just reading about this the other day... it doesn't really exist :)
http://www.jekylhyderacing.com/snapoversteer.htm

[Alphamale]

I was just reading about this the other day... it doesn't really exist :)
http://www.jekylhyderacing.com/snapoversteer.htm

I don't know about that. It DOES exist, he's merely arguing that it's all driver error/inexperience, which it is. However, that doesn't mean that the term doesn't exist. The term is applied when certain conditions are met while driving the car.

It clearly exists. It clearly is driver error and inexperience.

Happens more often on MR than RWD but I can make it happen anytime on Miata if I wanted to. There are plenty of videos out there that show driver error resulting in snap throttle oversteer. It's an inherent characteristic of RWD...although it can happen in FWD as well.

[the_law82]

Good read.

I completely agree with it.

I guess I can get one, grandma drive for a bit and try autox to learn to drive it properly.

[SuperSlowSS]

I don't know about that. It DOES exist, he's merely arguing that it's all driver error/inexperience, which it is. However, that doesn't mean that the term doesn't exist. The term is applied when certain conditions are met while driving the car.

It clearly exists. It clearly is driver error and inexperience.

Happens more often on MR than RWD but I can make it happen anytime on Miata if I wanted to. There are plenty of videos out there that show driver error resulting in snap throttle oversteer. It's an inherent characteristic of RWD...although it can happen in FWD as well.

is there something called snap oversteer? yes.
is that a "problem"? don't think so

[Alphamale]

is there something called snap oversteer? yes.
is that a "problem"? don't think so

Yes, it is a problem. A problem that can be mitigated.

Don't believe?

91-92 MR2's vs 93+ MR2's, and we're just talking about streetablility here. Not that I have any personal experience, it is a consensus amongst the MR2 community.


Not to mention, there are aftermarket solutions as well.

It all depends on the scope of how you'll be driving your car.

[Leopold Stotch]

I wouldn't worry about it. as long as you're giving it a consistent amount of power through a corner, IE, don't let off too suddenly or accelerate, then you should be fine

i thought when i bought my first RWD car i'd be going sideways all day long, not quite true. haha


there are times when i give it a little bit of throttle and i go sideways accidently but that only ever happens in the dry.

[heleu]

I have a 91 MR2.

When I first bought the car, the rear tires only had ~30% tread. Dry was okay; you would have to do something really outrageous to get the rear to slide out.

However in the wet, the tail can slide out quite easily. A little too much throttle across white lines in the intersection and you'll be countersteering. I remember one time driving with my girlfriend, and I had to countersteer a bit after I went into a corner a little too fast in the rain...she wasn't too happy to say the least. Having said that, I've never come close to doing a full 180....I think I was too chicken to take corners too fast.

After I changed my rear tires, it was a huge difference. I really have to be messing with the throttle mid corner for the tail to come out at all.

Anyways, don't mean to scare you or anything. The MR2 is a great car - fun to drive, looks good, reliable. I've owned it for almost 3 years now and still look forward to driving it daily.

[!LittleDragon]

I've experienced it in mine when I didn't know how to drive it. Never let go of the throttle around a corner... do not shift around a corner and do not brake around a corner. If the rear end breaks loose around a corner, give it throttle and steer with the wheel. Basically, don't do anything to upset the balance of the car when you're turning. Once you get used to driving it, you'll be fine.

The 91-92's are more prone to snap oversteer, it's setup more to be a race car. When people started wrecking their cars, they blamed a design flaw and Toyota dumbed down the suspension in the 93+ models.

[SuperSlowSS]

Yes, it is a problem. A problem that can be mitigated.

Don't believe?

91-92 MR2's vs 93+ MR2's, and we're just talking about streetablility here. Not that I have any personal experience, it is a consensus amongst the MR2 community.


Not to mention, there are aftermarket solutions as well.

It all depends on the scope of how you'll be driving your car.

why is it a problem? so same kind of "problem" s2k had, which honda fixed?

[mpr]

I had a chance to drive a mild modified 91 mr2 on mission raceway. I believe it it supercharged. in the sun, I don't really see any problem with snap oversteer.

If you are a beginner for mr or fr vehicle and if you do not have that much experience on track. You will not be pushing too hard anyways. To snap oversteer you will need to be pushing smoothly 9/10 on track or you can snap oversteer with 5/10 on track with poor driving ( not being smooth ).

The only thing I think there would be problems is when it rains. On a MR vehicle equipped with summer, bald, or semi track tires, it will be very difficult driving it in the rain. Even if your driving slowly. I pretty much spin my car in 1st and 2nd gear going straight or turning when I don't have my traction control on. The key is get a tire that works with rain.

[Volvo-brickster]

I've driven an RX8 never broke the rear wheels loose at any point

with 159 ft/lbs of torque its not surprising :haha:

[LowTEC]

with 159 ft/lbs of torque at 900000000000rpm its not surprising :haha:

Ownage :lol

[bcrdukes]

*hahaha*

After reading this thread, I'm laughing in disgust.

To the OP - the bottomline is - don't drive like a you own the streets and you'll be fine. This whole "snap oversteer" stigma is far too hyped caused by MR2 owner kingshit syndrome. It's an inherant issue with 91/92 MR2s but really, you'd really have to do something really stupid to experience "snap oversteer."

No. Toyota never fixed this problem. They just made some changes to the suspension setup in 93+ but it still exists. Toyota did a piss-ass job in designing the suspension geometry - it sucks dick which is why MR2 owners should shut the hell up and stop thinking their cars were designed by God.

There was a JDM company called Phoenix power who designed rear traction/control arms for the MR2s and it "fixed" this snap oversteer issue. Basically, you have a suspension piece designed like a triangle and any 3rd grader knows better that a triangle is strong. Toyota engineers overlooked this and to this day, never "fixed" the problem. They just did a good job of masking it. The only other person I know of on this planet who ever designed this simple suspension piece was Alex Pfiefer of Battle Version but too bad his attitude sucked, otherwise, he would've been a millionaire by now but MR2 owners are cheap fucks who think their cars are God's gift to the automotive world.

My recommendation to the OP - buy a better car. :lol

[Alphamale]

why is it a problem? so same kind of "problem" s2k had, which honda fixed?

I did say it depends on the scope of how you'll be driving your car.

For the average joe, this can present itself as a problem.

For someone who's more experienced, this may not present itself as a problem.


/thread?

Individual drivers all find little tweaks and setups that best fit their driving characteristics on the track (bounded by general knowledge, of course).

I think it is a problem. You may not, and that's fine. But I think we can all agree that it is a problem for the "average joe" who doesn't know dickall about anything and just buys the car because it's cool (which is fine, really).

Does that sound like a happy medium?

[Rich Sandor]

To add to what most everyone else said, it's not a problem if you're driving casually.

It'll only ever bite you if you're going too fast on a wet day and you don't have the experience to catch it before you leave the road.

Do lots of autoX in the wet, get used to going to sideways, and you'll fall in love with the car.

I'd be willing to venture a guess that if you "lost it" in an MR2, you probably would have lost it in any other RWD car too.

[SuperSlowSS]

I did say it depends on the scope of how you'll be driving your car.

For the average joe, this can present itself as a problem.

For someone who's more experienced, this may not present itself as a problem.


/thread?

Individual drivers all find little tweaks and setups that best fit their driving characteristics on the track (bounded by general knowledge, of course).

I think it is a problem. You may not, and that's fine. But I think we can all agree that it is a problem for the "average joe" who doesn't know dickall about anything and just buys the car because it's cool (which is fine, really).

Does that sound like a happy medium?


:) so it is more or less a driver problem... and can be fixed by doing autox or taking driving lessons.

[hk20000]

I'd be willing to venture a guess that if you "lost it" in an MR2, you probably would have lost it in any other RWD car too.

Ah no you've seen how they autoX right? They have the error tolerance of laser eye surgery. ;)

I mean stock for stock MR2s are more of a death trap than many RWD cars. Anyway moving on do you know why that automobile from god is such a bad car to drive hard on? It's because it's a Camry with front and rear suspension swapped around.

If the Camry is the most boring car to drive it's the same reason why MR2s are the most difficult cars to drive - try driving the Camry backwards through traffic at 60mph you'll get similar effects. ROFL.

[cosworth]

Snap oversteer as mentioned is not a problem. It's driver inexperience. Understanding available traction is key.

If you can't figure out this link and the "traction circle" you should drive NA fwd for the rest of you life or until you do so.

A tire has %100 grip. Every tire does. If you use %92 of of that grip in neutral throttle cornering then apply power and the power uses %19 of the forward grip, it has to steal %11 grip from lateral traction. It's called power oversteer and you can see it in action every day on Top Gear car reviews :) .

So let's look at this "snap oversteer". You are cornering at say %94 of available traction for lateral cornering with a bit of power applied using %5 forward traction for power. you are usung %99 of traction available. Tire should be making noises here. Remember, you can't exceed %100 (ever!) so if you suddenly lift throttle and go into a decel mode where you are using %24 traction, you have to steal %18 of traction from lateral and you oversteer.

A 275/30 ZR19 or a 165/75 H14 from Canadian tire.... they all have %100 traction. You can never get away from that.

http://image.sportrider.com/f/10397523/146_0805_04_z+data_acquisition+traction_circle.jpg

http://www.teamassociated.com/racerhub/techhelp/marc/Handling.2.html

[heleu]

^ Interesting analogy, never heard that before! I guess MR2 NAs have the Camry engine, so that helps the analogy.

The OP asked about people's concerns, so a few people listed them.

HOWEVER, the bottom line is, most people EVEN on a rainy day driving a MR2 will be fine.

[cosworth]

MR2s are not the hardest car to drive. Not even by a long shot. A challenge for some.

Maybe the hardest to drive japanese import from the 90s available for under 10k that is mid engined and from a manufacturer called Toyota.

[Blinky]

cosworth has some of the right ideas (the traction circle) but what is missing is the role of weight transfer, which is universally applicable, and polar moment of inertia, which is more significant in mid-engined vehicles, especially ones with a short wheelbase.

Let's assume that a car is cornering near the limit, at constant throttle. Additional throttle can cause on-power oversteer. Weight is transferred to the rear which increases rear traction, but the additional power can break the rear wheels free. If the amount of throttle that is applied is *just right* the car will drift on four wheels -- the absolute limit. Check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kCvGLxmMgk at 0:27 for an example.

If the driver lifts mid-corner, rear traction is reduced as weight shifts to the front of the car. The car rotates. It seems so counterintuitive so it is more likely to catch an inexperienced driver. To complicate things, the same thing that makes a mid-engine car handle well (turn in well), makes it spin quickly too.

Simply put it's easier to spin a 10 kg weight, if the 10kg is in the middle of a 10 cm long bar shaped like: --0-- , than it is to spin a 10 kg weight that consists of two 5kg weights connected by a 10cm long bar: 0----0.

[cosworth]

Blinky, car handling takes that into account. But weight transfer etc does not affect a tire's ability to hold %100 traction. How you plant that tire to the ground affects how much lateral G you can extract, but it still only has %100 traction.

You have to think of these are two completely separate things. Failure to do so results in not "getting it". The weight transfer is what moves the percentage around.

Blinky is right, but understand that a tire always has %100 traction. Even in the wet. It has reduced traction, but still %100.

Weight transfer moves the X and Y axis of a certain %. Lateral is X and forward rearward (power, braking) are Y. Weight transfer affects BOTH.

[Rich Sandor]

I don't think a confusing 20 page thread on tire physics is going to help our friend here looking at MR2's.

The Porsche 911 turbo came under harsh criticism in the late 70's when it came out; after several wrecks, people complained it was dangerous and unsafe. It wasn't anymore dangerous than an airplane - you just have to know how to operate it properly.

[RabidRat]

had an MR2. will definitely say that it's not a friendly car for the inexperienced. but you seem to have the right attitude and a healthy amount of respect for what can happen, so I think you'll be fine. i like that you're being proactive about this, asking for others' experience and budgeting for good tires! very commendable.

the snap oversteer issue honestly is blown out of proportion. all this bitching and moaning about it, all it really means is that there's a lot of bad drivers out there. the margin for error with weight transfer is just smaller than usual and you have to be more careful about it. that's all.

if I had to give you one specific piece of advice, it'd be to get good tires for the rain. Z1 *Spec over the Azenis RT-615, for instance. the car can be a nightmare in the rain. it caught me off guard a couple times and got me into a lot of trouble.

I also wanted to add that FF can snap oversteer. in fact, FF cars can *only* snap oversteer. when I needed slip angle on the Mazda3, i would lift off the throttle and the rear would come out, like clockwork. just a question of weight transfer. and a big enough rear swaybar. =)

[Lomac]

I also wanted to add that FF can snap oversteer. in fact, FF cars can *only* snap oversteer. when I needed slip angle on the Mazda3, i would lift off the throttle and the rear would come out, like clockwork. just a question of weight transfer. and a big enough rear swaybar. =)

Yup. Happened on one of my track VW's a few years back. Too thick of a rear swaybar = rear end constantly breaking free.

I've never driven an MR2 but I have driven a few Pontiac Fiero's (another MR car). Snap oversteer is also an issue with those vehicles but only if you lift off the throttle in mid-turn and experience a fair amount of weight transfer. It's just something you need to watch out for when driving. In the dry, it's barely even an issue unless you're pushing it hard.

[TommyT]

If you're just gonna cruise in the sun than it shouldn't be an issue at all. Just stay on speed limit and have some healthy tires and its just like any other car. If you're tracking it than that's another story.

The snap oversteer thing is just overly hyped and shouldn't scare anyone who has good common driving sense who just like to enjoy a spirited ride.

[68style]

I've got 3 MR2 Turbo's... 93, 94 and 95... never had problems with any of them, it's totally blown out of proportion.

The only things that can get you into trouble are things that get you in trouble in ANY car... ie: flooring it around corners in the rain, trying to go into a corner carrying too much speed and then trying to get the car to carry you around -> can't power out in a controlled manner like you could with a Miata or a Mustang or something more "conventional" it will spin.

The only thing I see being unpredictable in my experience 5 years daily driving the MR2 are with the Turbo model in the rain if you are driving in a spirited fashion, sometimes the surge of power from the turbo rushing on rather suddenly can make you break treaction at weird or unexpected times especially if you happen to go over painted lines like a crosswalk or something hahaha... oh and in the snow, MR2 has awesome grip with the engine being over the drive wheels... except for stopping... rearend likes to try to pass the front ;)

By the way I have a totally restored '93 Turbo for sale if you are interested... check the Members Projects section to see the build :)

[saiko]

Kingshit syndrome, it gets the best of most people.

As most have already said, MR2's are designed by God. And if you obey God, he will not punish you up the ass. They're fun cars, but not one that can easily forgive some drivers.

I believe for anything, if you repect it, it will respect you. In the sense that you don't drive like you own the road, you'll be just fine.

68style's 93 was painted by one of the best. He's done numerous MR2's and they're high above the Kingshit Totem Pole.

[hk20000]

The idea of "snap oversteer" on the MR2 is none of those romantic theories you guys posted about the guy driving it over the limit or what not.

It was a suspension geometry flaw that caused the rear suspension to stop working at near limit cornering situation. A rigid suspension = instant reduction of grip causing immediate traction loss. Hence the word SNAP. It's nothing like the 911 ailment which is purely caused by snobs driving them.

Look it up. It's something that can be fixed and toyota fixed it with a 1992+ geometry. But old ones will still do the snap like it's a casual fun thing to do. Either get suspension that doesn't travel with as much stroke at the limit or stiffen up the rear for the engine weight load will drastically reduce the effect.