[slammer111]

Hi all,

If an auto mechanic can chime in on this one, it'd be greatly appreciated. Seriously posts only please.

I was doing an oil change by sucking it out with a plastic tube through the dipstick hole. (standard method for many European cars). Got all the oil out, but then the tube got stuck this time for some reason. Twisted and pulled unsuccessfully to get it unstuck. Ended up breaking off a piece of hose (flexible plastic, possibly nylon or polyethlyene) maybe 20-30cm long inside. (about the size + thickness of a drinking straw from McDs) :eek:

Pump was a Mityvac 7400 if that helps.

My questions:

1. Would such a piece cause any damage if this is left inside the engine? My understanding is that this vehicle has a strainer before anything leaves the pan, so there's a chance this tube may not even melt, and sit in there harmlessly forever.

2. The tube may melt though I am not sure (if it's polyethylene, Wiki shows the melting point is around 125C). Would something like this get caught in the oil filter (harmless), or is there a chance it'll gunk up the oil pump + a ton of internals (bad)?

3. Am I best off getting this thing towed and coughing up the $$$$? Or is a better idea to run the engine hard + hot and try to get it all caught in the filter? Then I can simply change the filter.

Thanks in advance.

[godwin]

Drop the oil pan and get it?

1. Yes.. what if it gunks up and block the pan return? then your engine will not have enough oil and might cause oil starvation.
2. Yes, but limited to where it melts.
3. No. DO NOT START THE CAR get a new pan gasket, raise the car, drop the pan.. put in a neodymium screw plug while you are at it.

[dustinb]

The best thing to do is to take the pan on and remove that tube. And yes, while it's off, get a shop to weld a drain bung onto the pan, so you don't have to do this anymore. The only instance where I wouldn't remove the pan, would be if I had to pull the motor or drop the subframe to get the pan off. Then I'd probably just risk it.

[Rich Sandor]

You would be an idiot to leave it in there.

TAKE

IT

OUT.

[hk20000]

LOL the heat from the engine will melt it into some unrecognizable goo if you drive it....

and then jam all your crank bearings and cam bearings for good. Either that or it films up your oil filter and sudden oil starvation could happen.

can you make out how long of a tube went into the engine? if it's like 2-3 inches maybe you can get away with it if it's any more than that......nah.

Can't you remove the dipstick to oil pan assy like Japanese engines? (*run away*)

Also I don't think the Euro engines have no drain plugs yes it is a European way to suck oil out but it's also not the North American way to do it LOL. Japanese does that too at their express oil change places....Just nobody would try that at home.

[!SG]

what car is this that u need to suck the oil out from the dip stick?

[Ohkun]

says "2003 C-coupe" in his profile

[CivicTypeRice]

Just leave it in there:D

[woozzle]

turn it on and see what happens

[3seriesBeeM]

if the straw melts it will end up costing you alot of money. i wouldnt risk it take it out b4 you drive it

[!SG]

whats wrong with draining the oil from the drain plug?

[godwin]

Nothing really.. just not as convenient for cars with oil filters where they are accessible from the engine bay.

I think all post 2003 engines from Mercedes don't have a pan plug release.

Honestly, it saves hoist time. Instead of having the car on a hoist, the service station can change oil, just by having the car on a level surface... (since the oil filter is facing up).

Princess Auto sells a pneumatic version (with plugs into the compressor).. for about $200.. it is all metal.. takes 2 minutes to suck out 12+L of oil from my X5. The other argument is unless you drop the oil pan, there might be varnish etc hanging about on the pan. A vacuum just gets those things out too.

whats wrong with draining the oil from the drain plug?

[blacK20]

I can't even start to imagine how some of you guys are saying to leave it inside. Under no circumstance would I ever do that. Do what you have to do to take it out whether it be dropping the pan, taking off the valve cover, or towing it to a mechanic.

[DC5-S]

ya man dont leave it in there u WILL fuck up the engine.. no question about that.. even if it melts you could possibly have it flow through your engine through the oil lines and fuck up even more shit.. take it to a mechanic or do it yourself..

[Leopold Stotch]

try taking off the dip stick holder. it might just be lodged in there.

[hk20000]

I think all post 2003 engines from Mercedes don't have a pan plug release.


http://autoparts.cardomain.com/auto-part/158102-mercedes-benz-febi-w0133-1643669-oil-drain-plug

you can't fool us.....you can't.

and the OP who decide to do the no plug oil change at home on a Mercedes - you are a cheap bastard who just performed epic self ownage. Replacing your oil at a local Mercedes dealer is under $80 CDN....

[Volvo-brickster]

Nothing really.. just not as convenient for cars with oil filters where they are accessible from the engine bay.

I think all post 2003 engines from Mercedes don't have a pan plug release.

Honestly, it saves hoist time. Instead of having the car on a hoist, the service station can change oil, just by having the car on a level surface... (since the oil filter is facing up).

Princess Auto sells a pneumatic version (with plugs into the compressor).. for about $200.. it is all metal.. takes 2 minutes to suck out 12+L of oil from my X5. The other argument is unless you drop the oil pan, there might be varnish etc hanging about on the pan. A vacuum just gets those things out too.


Good god... Is that how Mercedes and BMW can get away with charging $300 for an oil change ? Something that a 14 year old in highschool can do the conventional way ?

[godwin]

Are you sure that it is under $80 (I assume synthetic?)?? I mean 6 litres of Mobil1 0W40 is about $40 cost already.. then you add up the filter.. what about labour? taxes, environmental levy etc?

[url]
and the OP who decide to do the no plug oil change at home on a Mercedes - you are a cheap bastard who just performed epic self ownage. Replacing your oil at a local Mercedes dealer is under $80 CDN....

[godwin]

Or would you prefer BMW's method, delete the dipstick (n54) replace it with an oil level sensor (vs a switch) but have a drain plug?

It is not getting away or anything special.. marine engines have been using dipstick to change oil like forever.

Good god... Is that how Mercedes and BMW can get away with charging $300 for an oil change ? Something that a 14 year old in highschool can do the conventional way ?

[godwin]

http://autoparts.cardomain.com/auto-part/158102-mercedes-benz-febi-w0133-1643669-oil-drain-plug


I assumed all M272 is drain plugless but apparently only cars with tight clearance don't have them... I always forget Mercedes is slightly different from BMW, where it is the same engine / features across all model lines.. Mercedes slightly modify feature list depending on requirement of the specific models.

[hk20000]

Mercedes oil changes are really reasonably priced man.

That is, if you don't let them sell you up for "service plan" or other odd plans.... they always get a way to do it if you aren't careful. Talk to the service advisor like you know your cars, and then ask them to give you a "straight change, no other BS. Don't even inspect the belts or anything around there" then it's about $80.

[slammer111]

Hey guys, thanks for the info! Found a place that will open up the pan and remove it without digging too much of a hole in one's wallet. They even said they can even save/reuse the brand-new oil too! w00t!

Contrary to what many of you Jap owners think, MB does NOT recommend using the drain plug (oldschool) method on the W203 C-class (or probably their entire lineup). I'll try to find the link to the bulletin. I forget why but from an engineering standpoint I'd imagine it has something to do with potential stripping of the aluminum engine block threads. Some guy on one of the forums also claims the hose method removes MORE oil compared to the drain (who knows if this is true). Surely the dealership technicians aren't avoiding the hoist to save 30s. The engine actually has a tube specifically for sucking up oil. It doesn't even have a dipstick. Just a lid you pull off and stick a hose into. Our oil is measured electronically through the instrument cluster. And my understanding is that the drain pan bolt was just put in to keep the oldschool people happy until they die off. ;)

German cars are rather peculiar. The SA had to argue with my (oldschool) parents who at the time didn't believe my car had a 15000km service interval (aka oil/filter change) and thought MB was trying to blow up my engine so they could sell another car. :lol The newest MBs were at 20000km per oil change last time I checked, and it may be even higher now. From what I read in the forums, the synthetic oils in modern MBs (and most likely other many other cars) can actually easily go 30000km per change, but people are just so used to 5000 that they can't just suddenly crank it up 6x in one shot. Hence this "phasing-in" period over the years. The only things that changed for MB so far (as far as I can tell) is the oil filter material and the oil itself. In theory, there's no reason why these changes can't be applied to any other car.

Looking back, my mistake this time was feeding in TOO much hose, such that it developed a kink somewhere which then caught somewhere where the hose was not supposed to go. I've done this change before, without a problem. Marked the hose so it won't happen again :D

hk20000, please show me where you can get the oil for an MB changed for $80. My invoice from the dealer shows $52 for the oil and $15 for the filter, before taxes. I'd be VERY interested.

And for those of you who haven't doing a top-down oil change, try it once (if your engine allows for it) and see how much freaking EASIER it is than the oldschool way. No more crawling under your car with a pan or mopping up a big puddle of engine oil.

[Leopold Stotch]

^ i do a lot of oil changes. and for the most part you can't get as much oil out, sometimes it's just easier to take off the plug. hard to believe that sucking it out, gets as much crap out.

as for filters, for the most part, only BMW AUDI and some GM's have filters you can access upstairs without making a huge mess.

[hk20000]

as for filters, for the most part, only BMW AUDI and some GM's have filters you can access upstairs without making a huge mess.

Cartridge filters on W202s are the bomb it's just a lid on top, pull out filter and put a new one in. No spill no drama. :thumbsup:

I'll stick to my dipstick and drainplug if that translates to my $80 stealership oil change. ;)

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

ugh good luck changing ur engine oil every 30,000km guyz

:rolleyes:

[!SG]

wow, didnt know that about the benz's.

imagine if they adopted this years back, before suction devices. ud need a mechanic with a not so popular repuation for being "good at sucking" to get at all those liters of oil...

[hk20000]

^ huh? Dude what are you smoking lemme have some.

It' just a vaccuum pump hooked up to a thin tube....

[slammer111]

http://autoparts.cardomain.com/auto-part/158102-mercedes-benz-febi-w0133-1643669-oil-drain-plug

you can't fool us.....you can't.

and the OP who decide to do the no plug oil change at home on a Mercedes - you are a cheap bastard who just performed epic self ownage. Replacing your oil at a local Mercedes dealer is under $80 CDN....I call your bluff. Tell me which dealer. Shouldn't be too hard since there are only 4 in GVRD right? Or do you just get all your information off car magazines? :rolleyes:

[taylor192]

slammer, what suction pump are you using? I got one from princess auto, hand pump, that works well.

[slammer111]

^ Mityvac 7400. Normally it works well but this time I think I got too excited and stuck in too much hose.. :rolleyes:

[Supafly]

http://autoparts.cardomain.com/auto-part/158102-mercedes-benz-febi-w0133-1643669-oil-drain-plug

you can't fool us.....you can't.

and the OP who decide to do the no plug oil change at home on a Mercedes - you are a cheap bastard who just performed epic self ownage. Replacing your oil at a local Mercedes dealer is under $80 CDN....

maybe 80 bucks if you drive a smartcar.....my oil for 0w40 mobil 1 is already exeeds $80...shop rate is 125/hr and the filter is 20 bucks....

tell me which approved mb dealership that does oil changes for 80 bucks before taxes.


edit: im gonna to call your bluff and say if you can find me a mb dealership to do my oil/filter change for 80 bucks, i will GIVE YOU 80 bucks...

[taylor192]

^ Mityvac 7400. Normally it works well but this time I think I got too excited and stuck in too much hose.. :rolleyes:I've only used mine once, and found the hose not long enough to use from the ground without kinking it.

I'm going to sell it and buy the powered one.

[godwin]

12V powered ones suck.

Get pneumatic ones for best performance.. and no small ass containers to worry about.

I've only used mine once, and found the hose not long enough to use from the ground without kinking it.

I'm going to sell it and buy the powered one.

[ericthehalfbee]

I've dropped countless pans over the years and found all sorts of stuff inside (including lots of plastic bits and pieces), and not one of those engines ever had a problem.

Too many "experts" here who obviously never rip engines apart.

Why would plastic melt? Run through your bearings? Give me a break. Do you know how many parts on your engine are plastic?

The only reason I'd drop the pan is if there's a problem putting the dipstick back in because the hose is jammed inside the dipstick tube. In that case, I'd just change the tube itself.

And I also don't buy that sucking the oil out is better than the drain plug. How do you know if your hose is actually on the bottom of the pan, and not only that, but in the lowest part of the pan (where the drain plug would be located). I call 100% BS on the idea you can suck more oil out than what would come out through a drain plug.

As to plugging up the oil pickup screen, the only things I've seen plug a screen are silcone (way too much used on an oil pan gasket) and sludge. I've never seen any other material clog a strainer.

[godwin]

You do know there are near infinitesimal variations of plastic since they are hydrocarbons in the end. They have a huge variations of melting points right? from low 70s to high 300C? That's part of the versatility.

There are tons of plastic applications for engines (intake, belts etc).. eg the latest Mercedes 4 cylinder has a nylon reinforced zytel oil pan.. But can you honestly guarantee any plastic any tubing one use to evacuate fluid can survive 200C? Most polypropylene variations you find only have a melting point of 150C (if you are lucky).

Draining vs Sucking oil (we are talking about).. yields nearly the same results.. plenty of people in e92 tried it, ie drain / pour / suck = same amount of oil.. the only difference for BMW / MB and VW TDI drivers is just convenience.. since the filter is on the top, if you have the oil evacuator you don't have to lift the car.. and as I've said, it improves the turn around at the dealership too, since you don't have to put the car on the hoist.



Why would plastic melt? Run through your bearings? Give me a break. Do you know how many parts on your engine are plastic?
.

[taylor192]

Most polypropylene variations you find only have a melting point of 150C (if you are lucky).
The mitivac suggests warming up the oil by running the engine first. I assume it has a high melting point.

[godwin]

Actually no it doesnt really.. once it gets hot it degrades and becomes brittle. How else do you think they are able to mold them into tubes using relatively low temperature in an industrial setting?

Engine warm = more oil goes to the heads of the engine + weaken your tube = more spare parts for mityvac.

The mitivac suggests warming up the oil by running the engine first. I assume it has a high melting point.

[ericthehalfbee]

godwin: Mityvac actually does recommend warming up your engine - it's right in their manual. They also recommend not to evacuate fluids hotter than 80C. Both of these are interesting facts, which we'll get to later.

I checked all our lines/hoses at work. One thing you will note is that everything in your shop is rated several times higher than what you would use it at. Air lines carrying shop air at 150 PSI have hoses/lines rated at 300 or 600 PSI. Tubing that is used to handle fluids of 100C is often capable of handling fluids at 200 to 300C.


I thought you were an engineer or something? If you have a product designed to operate with a "load" of 100 units, you don't use a component that can only handle a "load" of 101 units - you need a safety margin. This is why you see things like lines/hoses being used to handle "loads" that are at least 2 and often 3 or more times lower than what they are capable of.


Getting back to the Mityvac and their suggestion of 80C for fluid temps. Firstly, by telling you to warm your engine up they're not expecting ridiculously high oil temps as that would go against their 80C recommendation. In fact, letting your engine idle (no load) would never get the oil very hot (only driving under load would get oil really hot). Secondly, since they recommend use up to 80C we can assume that the tubing/components they've used can handle temperatures far higher (probably at least 2 times and maybe higher). Which means the tubing they use could easily operate under 160C and probably higher.


Therefore, there is no way in hell Mityvac tubing would ever melt inside an engine.

[godwin]

Err you might want to read up on the original post. I am talking about the tube that the original poster "lost" in the pan. If the original poster had driven it to the dealer/ shop.. it will get warm enough for the plastic to get warm and melt. Of course unless he lives close enough to the dealer (ie practically next door).

Think about how an engine works.. especially if you don't have dry sump.. when the car is off, most of the oil get dumps into the oil pan.. if you warm up the car, yes you oil pressure and some oil recirculating to the top of the engine, but does it achieve anything beneficial? Sometimes manual is not right that's where critical thinking comes in.

The heat temp of polypropylene I quoted is general material specs.. no engineering limit. Like it or not they all have similar melting points. When you quote MityVac.. 80 degrees vs 160 degrees of course it won't melt.. however if the OP needed to drive the car to the dealer.. please don't tell me it won't reach the region of the melting point.

godwin: .
Therefore, there is no way in hell Mityvac tubing would ever melt inside an engine.

[!LittleDragon]

Wait... if crap settles at the bottom and you're siphoning from the top... wouldn't the crap just stay there?

[godwin]

Depends on what stuff.. Most oil evacuator has a small flex tube, which I think the OP broke/drop.. which allow some movement on the pan.

Here is what i do besides using the oil evacuator:
1. Replaced drain plug with neodymium one.
2. Send oil sample to Blackstone labs.
3. Drop pan about every 5 oil changes (I change oil ~8500km).. my oldest car is my e36 which I got since new and it just turn 16, I think I have only dropped the pan 3 times. Just a visual inspection and to get an additional sample..

So far everything the report indicates everything is normal. I usually get about 8.3L out.. which is about how much I put in, 8L initially and perhaps half a can during the year to top up. The only pain about the evacuator is stupid Mobil10W40 comes in 1L can, and it makes filling out waste oil a bit of a pain.. which in the end I just resort to milk jugs.

Wait... if crap settles at the bottom and you're siphoning from the top... wouldn't the crap just stay there?

[taylor192]

Actually no it doesnt really.. once it gets hot it degrades and becomes brittle. How else do you think they are able to mold them into tubes using relatively low temperature in an industrial setting?

Engine warm = more oil goes to the heads of the engine + weaken your tube = more spare parts for mityvac.
For your reading pleasure. BTW, its step 1 incase you miss it.

http://www.mityvac.com/user_manuals/07400.pdf

[godwin]

Again I would only use the manual only as a guideline.. and it seems to only give the ceiling of the operation temperature.. (ie not to go over 80C).

In my application, I use 0 weight oil and all my cars are kept in temperature regulated structures.. I just can't see oil to congeal to a state and require warming up for an oil change.

Of course YMMV but we live in lower mainland I just can't see oil freeze. I rather get the most oil rather than warming the car up.

The pertinent section:

Extracting motor oil through the dipstick tube
1. Operate the vehicle to warm the engine oil to a normal operating temperature.
Caution: Do not attempt to extract fluids at temperatures greater than 175° Fahrenheit (80° Celsius).


For your reading pleasure. BTW, its step 1 incase you miss it.

http://www.mityvac.com/user_manuals/07400.pdf

[ericthehalfbee]

godwin: I don't know why you think the tubing will melt. There is no way in hell the temperature in the oil pan is going to reach 150C. Did you know many oil temp sensors are mounted in the pan? How many cars have you driven where the oil temperature reached 150C?

Sometimes you engineers overcomplicate things, so I'm going to prove this the easy way without talking about what the tubing is made of.

I'll take a piece of the tubing from one of our Mityvacs and I'll heat it until it melts. I'll measure how hot it gets before it a) starts to get soft and bend easily, and b) when it breaks down into something that could get sucked into the oil pump.


But I already know the answer - the temps needed to melt the plastic are going to be substantially higher than you'd ever see inside an engine.



All that piece of tubing is going to do is lie in the bottom of the oil pan and do nothing. It's not going to melt, it's not going to plug the strainer and it's not going to damage anything.

[godwin]

For someone who doesn't believe suction is better than dropping pan.. you sure have a lot of mityvac at work! ;)

If you are measuring the melting point, make sure you are using a calorimeter, so that you can normalize ambient temperature. It is much more accurate to be converting from Joules, than just putting a torch to it.

I am not sure about other engines, but on my own engines that I play with on the e39 M5, e46 M3 and my gf's 335i, the temp sensors are mounted as a module along with the oil pumps.. It is much less accurate but it seems that's where BMW like to put it. Even though there are kits that can relocate to the pan for the most accurate reading. Not sure about Mercedes, but the pans I deal with don't have that many wires sprouting from it.


godwin: I don't know why you think the tubing will melt. There is no way in hell the temperature in the oil pan is going to reach 150C. Did you know many oil temp sensors are mounted in the pan? How many cars have you driven where the oil temperature reached 150C?

Sometimes you engineers overcomplicate things, so I'm going to prove this the easy way without talking about what the tubing is made of.

I'll take a piece of the tubing from one of our Mityvacs and I'll heat it until it melts. I'll measure how hot it gets before it a) starts to get soft and bend easily, and b) when it breaks down into something that could get sucked into the oil pump.


But I already know the answer - the temps needed to melt the plastic are going to be substantially higher than you'd ever see inside an engine.



All that piece of tubing is going to do is lie in the bottom of the oil pan and do nothing. It's not going to melt, it's not going to plug the strainer and it's not going to damage anything.

[taylor192]

Not sure about Mercedes, but the pans I deal with don't have that many wires sprouting from it.
Why must you comment if you're not sure.

MB's oil level sensor is at the bottom of the block usually next to the drain plug.

That aside, we're all arguing about whether the tube will melt or not. Personally I wouldn't care. There's something stuck inside my engine and I'd want it out, especially if its only going to cost 2 hrs labour to drop the pan.

[godwin]

That's the thing, erichalfbee asked me half many sensors are on the pan.. and other than oil level sensor on the pan (and one temperature sensor if relocated).. I can't think of any other sensors (usually) on the pan.

Most of those sensors are made out of plastic similiar to zytel which and handle ~300C.. they are definitely not polypropylene.

My point is huge family of plastics out there.. ones with low melting point and ones with high melting point.. polypropylene which mityvac uses as piping belongs to low melting point type.. that's why they are cheap, easy to mold and what I say can melt. As I've said before Mercedes is using plastic as its oil pan in its 250 CDI, that can obviously handle the high temperature.

Why must you comment if you're not sure.

MB's oil level sensor is at the bottom of the block usually next to the drain plug.

That aside, we're all arguing about whether the tube will melt or not. Personally I wouldn't care. There's something stuck inside my engine and I'd want it out, especially if its only going to cost 2 hrs labour to drop the pan.

[Drift_Monkey]

if you run the car for 5 minutes, i think most of the crap gets mixed evenly into oil.

[BEEB]

I would say, on certain MB models, suction at the dip stick is the same as drain plug if not better. I'm sure that on a W163 ML430 V8 engine, there is no different, I'd personally opened up the drain plug hoping for at least 1/2 quarts of oil to drain, but not even a drop came out. However, on a 05' W203 I4 supercharged engine, there's at least 2/3 quarts pour out from the drain plug even after using suction from dip stick.
On non-MB cars, I've tried Subaru WRX, Honda H22A engine, Ferrari F360, BMW E46 330i, Porsche 993, etc. They are all designed to be drained from the bottom, let alone the dry sump on the Ferrari and Porsche which require extra care.