[Harvey Specter]

I was over on the Camaro forum and I came across this comment regarding the Genesis coupe;

When I first heard about this car they were talking about the V8 being in it but then it was dropped. Don't know why.

I'm not considering this car. I really don't like the way it looks.
I just thought I'd post this because I can tell you out where I live on the coast in B.C. there are a lot of people who feel no loyalty to the US/Canadian auto industry and there are many of these people who are considering this car and not considering a Camaro at all. I've had friends visit from back east and they can't believe the number of imports around here. We don't have any factories around here and we have a lot of Asian immigrants. Add in the domestic's quality rep., even if not valid nowadays and you end up with this situation.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13528



I really don't understand the loyalty nonsense in general. Toyotas are built in Canada so aren't we supporting Canadian workers? I just find it funny how people are quick to judge someone who buys an import over a domestic. I doubt most people are thinking about the loyalty factor when they walk into a dealership, the only thing on most people’s mind is what car fits their budget and needs and what car manufacture can offer the best deals.

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

or watever doesnt break down, certain brand image, quality, best bang for the buck, resale. styling, power, performance

[Great68]

I have a couple uncles that have bought GM trucks all their lives, and will continue to buy GM trucks for as long as GM makes them.

[GLOW]

yes

[taylor192]

I really don't understand the loyalty nonsense in general. Toyotas are built in Canada so aren't we supporting Canadian workers? I just find it funny how people are quick to judge someone who buys an import over a domestic.
Considering 1/4 of Vancouver is Asian, there's going to be a bias.

Japan has strict import laws on foreign cars that makes selling NA cars there very difficult. This is unfair trade practice where Japan can sell cars here easily and we cannot sell there.

Some Toyotas may be made here, yet many we buy are not. Look at the dock yards for an estimate of how many are imported, its a LOT.
I doubt most people are thinking about the loyalty factor when they walk into a dealership, the only thing on most people’s mind is what car fits their budget and needs and what car manufacture can offer the best deals.
GM and Ford have next to 0% financing, are offering tons of incentives (free maintenance, huge discounts), and are building great cars (Malibu was COTY). Yet people are still not buying. They'd rather pay more, higher rates, and get less from Toyota/Honda/Mazda.

For instance the Pontiac Vibe and Toyota Matrix. They are the same car with different clothing, checkout the price differences and options and tell me which would you take. Then do a poll and see which most people would take.

Prediction: Financially the Pontiac wins, yet in the poll the Toyota will come ahead by far.

People just are not smart car shoppers.

[MR_BIGGS]

My dad bought a Toyota Corolla in 1990 and he bought another one in 2003. Loyalist through and through.

I hear the domestic / import chatter all the time..often, the people who buy imports will argue - "I would buy a ford if they built one like an import (I guess in terms of gas milage, bang for buck, dependabilty etc).....for me - when I buy a car - chances are I'm going to buy an import.
WIth that being said, like the post above me - cars made these days - are pretty close to each other in terms of factors people look for. I think that import car companies have put more money in research and development and therefore have adapted to changes whereas domestics have not..just a thought

[BlackZRoadster]

^ factor in resell value of the vibe and that scares away buyers

[BNR32_Coupe]

Considering 1/4 of Vancouver is Asian, there's going to be a bias.

Japan has strict import laws on foreign cars that makes selling NA cars there very difficult. This is unfair trade practice where Japan can sell cars here easily and we cannot sell there.

Some Toyotas may be made here, yet many we buy are not. Look at the dock yards for an estimate of how many are imported, its a LOT.

GM and Ford have next to 0% financing, are offering tons of incentives (free maintenance, huge discounts), and are building great cars (Malibu was COTY). Yet people are still not buying. They'd rather pay more, higher rates, and get less from Toyota/Honda/Mazda.

For instance the Pontiac Vibe and Toyota Matrix. They are the same car with different clothing, checkout the price differences and options and tell me which would you take. Then do a poll and see which most people would take.

Prediction: Financially the Pontiac wins, yet in the poll the Toyota will come ahead by far.

People just are not smart car shoppers.

I think the car buy you is associated with image. People feel safe about their image in a Toyota. Cars are just like clothes, if TnA or lululemon made jeans for men, and they're the exact same as Diesel pair of jeans but with a cheaper price tag, guys will still pay premium for the Diesel name.

Likewise, (example only) I prefer to be seen driving in a Toyota because I heard Toyota has a good name. I don't want to seem like a fool for stepping away from the crowd and buying a Pontiac.

btw, Obama's team prefers imports: http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090223/AUTO01/902230327/1148

[Ikkaku]

for a construction/rugged vehicle, my father would never consider anything import, however, for a family car he would never consider anything domestic.

I guess it really is about catering to your needs or the images portrayed by the brand. I think for my father, domestics (well, jeep, vans and trucks) will always be the solid, rugged, powerful, gas guzzlers.

For japanese cars, he goes for reliability and fuel economy. Euro-brands he just goes for the name :lol

[Eclypz]

- My dad's old car was a domestic and it was ridiculously unreliable.
- My first car was a domestic and it also was ridiculously unreliable.
- My grandma owns a domestic and surprise...it also was unreliable. (although it was the most reliable of the domestics we've had).

And its because of those reasons, our family refuses to buy domestic again. Call it bad luck, but until we run into bad experiences with imports, I doubt we'll be going back to domestic.

[unit]

I doubt most people are thinking about the loyalty factor when they walk into a dealership, the only thing on most people’s mind is what car fits their budget and needs and what car manufacture can offer the best deals.

that is simply not true. if it were, why are people buying cars like the RSX-S, civic si, and other $30k sports coupes instead of cars like cobalt SS, srt-4, etc...? Hmmmm, not fully loaded acura TL, vs fully loaded buick lucerne? brand loyalty is huge in the car industry.

[MR_BIGGS]

Hmmmm, not fully loaded acura TL, vs fully loaded buick lucerne? brand loyalty is huge in the car industry.

Who would want to buy a Buick though?

I know for a fact when it comes to my dad - he would only buy an import. He drives an import, his friends drive imports, his friends kids drive imports and so on and so on..His friends who drive domestics always have the car in the shop, or are always complaining about has milage...granted that we're east indian and most folks from Asia are loyal to imports...

I don't think it's the safe choice in terms of image..maybe it is..cause everyone else is driving them...but could it be that there better cars>? and to change this would be a step back ?? Theres nothing out there for my dad that suggests he should change his buying patterns..

You have a domestic hybrid in the ford focus and the honda hybrid...which one is my dad going to choose?

[taylor192]

^ factor in resell value of the vibe and that scares away buyers
That's only compounding the same problem. Why would you pay more for a used Toyota that is the SAME CAR as the Pontiac?

[taylor192]

I think the car buy you is associated with image. People feel safe about their image in a Toyota. Cars are just like clothes, if TnA or lululemon made jeans for men, and they're the exact same as Diesel pair of jeans but with a cheaper price tag, guys will still pay premium for the Diesel name.

Likewise, (example only) I prefer to be seen driving in a Toyota because I heard Toyota has a good name. I don't want to seem like a fool for stepping away from the crowd and buying a Pontiac.

Of course its associated with image, that image needs to change to say "I'm dumb for paying too much" rather than "bling bling yo".

As for steeping away from the crowd... well sheep do flock together, yet I'd prefer not to be called a sheep.

I made the mistake of buying a car on brand name, and its been very unreliable. My next car will be much more researched.

[MR_BIGGS]

That's only compounding the same problem. Why would you pay more for a used Toyota that is the SAME CAR as the Pontiac?

The Toyota Matrix is manufactured in Cambridge, Ontario where as the Vibe is assembled in Fremont, California?? Just a thought.

[BoneThug]

Considering 1/4 of Vancouver is Asian, there's going to be a bias.

Japan has strict import laws on foreign cars that makes selling NA cars there very difficult. This is unfair trade practice where Japan can sell cars here easily and we cannot sell there.

Some Toyotas may be made here, yet many we buy are not. Look at the dock yards for an estimate of how many are imported, its a LOT.

GM and Ford have next to 0% financing, are offering tons of incentives (free maintenance, huge discounts), and are building great cars (Malibu was COTY). Yet people are still not buying. They'd rather pay more, higher rates, and get less from Toyota/Honda/Mazda.

For instance the Pontiac Vibe and Toyota Matrix. They are the same car with different clothing, checkout the price differences and options and tell me which would you take. Then do a poll and see which most people would take.

Prediction: Financially the Pontiac wins, yet in the poll the Toyota will come ahead by far.

People just are not smart car shoppers.

thats cause domestics have had such a bad rep for the past decade and a half. its going to take a LONG time before people start to feel good about them again, but that time will come.

[taylor192]

Who would want to buy a Buick though?

I know for a fact when it comes to my dad - he would only buy an import. He drives an import, his friends drive imports, his friends kids drive imports and so on and so on..His friends who drive domestics always have the car in the shop, or are always complaining about has milage...granted that we're east indian and most folks from Asia are loyal to imports...

I don't think it's the safe choice in terms of image..maybe it is..cause everyone else is driving them...but could it be that there better cars>? and to change this would be a step back ?? Theres nothing out there for my dad that suggests he should change his buying patterns..
Many many Chinese like Buicks, its about the brand name and Buick did well lining up some high profile celebs to drive Buicks.

There's nothing to suggest changing his buying patterns? Hmmmm Toyota's declining reliability, Honda's increasing price, both Honda and Toyota increasing the size of their "small" cars, both charging high finance rates and unwilling to negotiate prices, ... compared to GMs improved reliability and cheap financing?

My GMs of the 80s were bullet-proof (while Honda and Toyota were making garbage small cars), the GM cars of the 90s were unreliable rust buckets (while Civics/Camrys were selling like hotcakes). Things change, don't let attitudes keep you stagnant.

[BoneThug]

I think the car buy you is associated with image. People feel safe about their image in a Toyota. Cars are just like clothes, if TnA or lululemon made jeans for men, and they're the exact same as Diesel pair of jeans but with a cheaper price tag, guys will still pay premium for the Diesel name.

Likewise, (example only) I prefer to be seen driving in a Toyota because I heard Toyota has a good name. I don't want to seem like a fool for stepping away from the crowd and buying a Pontiac.


do people honestly buy toyotas for the name?

thats like bragging to your friends about getting a frigidare fridge.

"cool appliance man. glad you enjoy it"

if cars are like clothes toyotas are walmart branded.

[taylor192]

The Toyota Matrix is manufactured in Cambridge, Ontario where as the Vibe is assembled in Fremont, California?? Just a thought.
Good point!

[L-S-D]

dude taylor the fact of the matter is toyota > pontiac in every way.. the name , the quality... the whole line up of cars they have to offer .. and the reliability, end of story.

[taylor192]

do people honestly buy toyotas for the name?

thats like bragging to your friends about getting a frigidare fridge.

"cool appliance man. glad you enjoy it"

if cars are like clothes toyotas are walmart branded.
Awesome! :thumbsup:

Devil's Advocate: Lexus doesn't exist overseas, everything is a Toyota. So loyalty is with a manufacturer, not a made up luxury brand.

[taylor192]

dude taylor the fact of the matter is toyota > pontiac in every way.. the name , the quality... the whole line up of cars they have to offer .. and the reliability, end of story.
What "fact" would that be?

Fact is the Vibe and Matrix are the same car. Please tell me the "facts" that make the Matrix more reliable.

[Domani]

aren't half of the german/japanese lux suv's u see on the streets built in alabama anyways, inclouding the new rx in ont.

[L-S-D]

What "fact" would that be?

Fact is the Vibe and Matrix are the same car. Please tell me the "facts" that make the Matrix more reliable.


that maybe so but in the end both those cars are crap, u get what u pay. those cars are like 15 gs my rims cost almost that much, and in the end ppl would still rather have a toyota over a pontiac becus of the name and reliability rep of it, name 1 car by pontiac that has been around for over 10 years like a camry through the 90's and had a rep till now ???:confused:

[TracerFX]

do people honestly buy toyotas for the name?

thats like bragging to your friends about getting a frigidare fridge.

"cool appliance man. glad you enjoy it"

if cars are like clothes toyotas are walmart branded.

QFT.

unless of course you are getting an 90's Supra, then its like that super awesome old fridge that was the first to come up with the instant ice maker w/ water dispenser combo or something lol

[fT-z33wor]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v205/gilbertgilly/gmrental.jpg

[BNR32_Coupe]

do people honestly buy toyotas for the name?

thats like bragging to your friends about getting a frigidare fridge.

"cool appliance man. glad you enjoy it"

if cars are like clothes toyotas are walmart branded.

yeah they do, unless you can think of another reason. they trust the name in reliability. whether other manufacturers are as reliable or not, toyota has a reputation associated with it. ask any joe schmoe walking down the street if they think toyota is reliable.

[thumper]

Devil's Advocate: Lexus doesn't exist overseas, everything is a Toyota. So loyalty is with a manufacturer, not a made up luxury brand.

um, lexus is a brand overseas (but obviously as part of the toyota corporation):

http://www.toyota.co.jp/worldwide/lexus/index.html

[MR_BIGGS]

What "fact" would that be?

Fact is the Vibe and Matrix are the same car. Please tell me the "facts" that make the Matrix more reliable.


He's right - essentially they are the same car!

case in point:
The Matrix is the Toyota version of a joint venture between Toyota and General Motors; the GM version being the Pontiac Vibe, which is assembled by New United Motor Manufacturing, Inc. (NUMMI) in Fremont, California. A third version, also assembled at NUMMI, was sold in Japan from 2002 to early 2004 as the Toyota Voltz. Almost 2000 cars were produced before production ceased.[1] Although the Voltz was sold under the Toyota brand there, the vehicle had the same exterior as the Vibe.

Identical mechanically, and nearly as much internally, the Matrix and Vibe are clothed in different sheetmetal designed by their respective brands. Both vehicles are narrow, yet tall station wagons styled in a quasi-SUV fashion (called a crossover utility vehicle or "CUV" by Toyota)[2] and marketed to a fairly youthful market segment. This type of car is also commonly referred to as a sport wagon.

From Wiki

[MR_BIGGS]

Toyota Corolla may be the "wal-mart brand" but when my dad bought his 1990 corolla brand new - he had an idea it would last him...its got more than 300,000 clicks on it...its a scary thought...but other than some minor rust right above where the tires are on the sides of the car....it amazes me how well the car runs...it has more years it in than Chris Chelios......if he put new shocks on the car....it would be like a new car...of course..ppl will laugh..cause its such an old car and its not teh greatest looking car anymore...but from 1990 to now..it got my dad from point A to point B and his family...can't argue with that...

[Presto]

A lot of people lost faith in the domestics. It will take awhile to get some of them to look at domestics again. My family was loyal to Chrysler for quite a while (+20 years). We've had the odd GM and Ford, as well. Their final car was the Neon. It was such a shitty car. Crap/cramped interior, fuel consumption, and poor visibility convinced me to help them out. I bought them a Yaris, and sold the piece of shit for a loss. I'm sure the loss has been made up for with gas savings. I don't think they'll be looking at a Chrysler or any domestic for quite a while.

[Lomac]

that maybe so but in the end both those cars are crap, u get what u pay. those cars are like 15 gs my rims cost almost that much, and in the end ppl would still rather have a toyota over a pontiac becus of the name and reliability rep of it, name 1 car by pontiac that has been around for over 10 years like a camry through the 90's and had a rep till now ???:confused:

Ooo, rims that cost almost as much as a new car. Whoopty-fucking-doo.

Toyota had a reputation for reliability, just as GM had a reputation for making quality, long-lasting vehicles. It wasn't until the 90's that GM's reputation began to sink due to cost cutting in materials and now Toyota is beginning to follow the same pattern. I know quite a few people who have new Toyota's ('05 and newer) and they've all had problems with 'em, whereas I know other people who have new GM's and they've had nothing go wrong.

Japanese vehicles used to be absolute crap. The Corolla, Camry, Accord, Civic, etc., all had horrible reputations for being absolute rust buckets. Then, yes, they all started to improve in the 90's. American companies began to feel the pinch and decided to cut costs in order to maintain competitive pricing. Unfortunately this is the same trap that Toyota is beginning to find itself in now.

As for a car from Pontiac... well, the G6 is simply a renamed Grand Prix, and that was always a decent vehicle. Just because a car doesn't keep the same name over a number of decades doesn't mean anything. Look at the Golf/Rabbit... the name has been switched four times in North America and the sales are still very strong.

And what about other joint ventures between the Americans and Japanese? Ford Fusion vs Mazda6? Ford Ranger vs Mazda B-Series? Chrysler vs Mercedes? Would you choose one over the other based on "reliability" despite the fact that everything that powers the car is the exact same?

[roastpuff]

What "fact" would that be?

Fact is the Vibe and Matrix are the same car. Please tell me the "facts" that make the Matrix more reliable.

It's assembled in a different plant, with different people? Made by Canadians yo! :haha:

I'd buy the Matrix because I think it looks a lot better, and is probably better made with better QC.

However, I wouldn't buy Toyotas - they're reliable but very bland. Like driving a fridge, like someone mentioned.

[taylor192]

that maybe so but in the end both those cars are crap, u get what u pay. those cars are like 15 gs my rims cost almost that much, and in the end ppl would still rather have a toyota over a pontiac becus of the name and reliability rep of it, name 1 car by pontiac that has been around for over 10 years like a camry through the 90's and had a rep till now ???:confused:
Prior to the 1989 Camry, Toyota basically made junk: square ugly econoboxes. I owned a 1990 Camry, awesome car, yet would not buy a 2009 Camry, its too big and has lost the fun factor that car had. If I was buying today I'd take a Malibu.

Ever driven a 1970 GTO "The Judge"? My brother had this one (same year, colour, ...)
http://www.gtoalley.com/gtopics/pjgto2.jpg

Find me one Toyota that matches the history of The Judge.

Time change, stop being a sheep.

[taylor192]

I'd buy the Matrix because I think it looks a lot better, and is probably better made with better QC.
I agree, I prefer the Matrix too, yet the price difference would easily sway my decision if I were buying a DD.

[taylor192]

And what about other joint ventures between the Americans and Japanese? Ford Fusion vs Mazda6? Ford Ranger vs Mazda B-Series? Chrysler vs Mercedes? Would you choose one over the other based on "reliability" despite the fact that everything that powers the car is the exact same?
How about:
Mazda 3 vs Volvo S40
Subaru WRX vs SAAB 9-2X

or my favourite:
Mercedes CLK320 vs C320 coupe, $25K difference in sticker price for the same chassis, engine, drivetrain, ... the $25K pays for some sheet metal, better interior and a couple of options.

[KinseySS]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v205/gilbertgilly/gmrental.jpg

Im a huge GM guy and I can still laugh at this.

I actually laughed my ass off. :haha:

[roastpuff]

Prior to the 1989 Camry, Toyota basically made junk: square ugly econoboxes. I owned a 1990 Camry, awesome car, yet would not buy a 2009 Camry, its too big and has lost the fun factor that car had. If I was buying today I'd take a Malibu.

Ever driven a 1970 GTO "The Judge"? My brother had this one (same year, colour, ...)
http://www.gtoalley.com/gtopics/pjgto2.jpg

Find me one Toyota that matches the history of The Judge.

Time change, stop being a sheep.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_2000GT

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/TOYOTA_2000GT.jpg/800px-TOYOTA_2000GT.jpg

Too bad very few were made. :cry: Such a gorgeous car!

I agree, I prefer the Matrix too, yet the price difference would easily sway my decision if I were buying a DD.

Actually, price difference MSRP-wise is very little. Content-wise they're almost the same, though the Toyota offers auto-dimming rearview mirror and heated side mirrors which I really like.

Of course, when you talk about dealer incentives YMMV. At any rate if I had to look at the car every day, I'd get the Toyota and screw the price difference. The resale value difference will make up for it, too.

[hk20000]

Prior to the 1989 Camry, Toyota basically made junk: square ugly econoboxes. I owned a 1990 Camry, awesome car, yet would not buy a 2009 Camry, its too big and has lost the fun factor that car had. If I was buying today I'd take a Malibu.

Ever driven a 1970 GTO "The Judge"? My brother had this one (same year, colour, ...)
http://www.gtoalley.com/gtopics/pjgto2.jpg

Find me one Toyota that matches the history of The Judge.

Time change, stop being a sheep.
Toyota Sprinter Trueno / Corolla Levin series. circa 1972 - 2001 then went to hell.
TE51 shown:
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/4883/rwdcorolla_files/te51gt.jpg
TE27 shown:
http://www.burnoutsunlimited.net/feature/corolla/COROLLA3.JPG
Toyota Corolla itself 1966 - present.
TE10 shown:
http://www.toyota.co.jp/Museum/data_e/images/a03_10_1_5_2.jpg
Mitsubishi Galant series. 1969-present.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Mitsubish_Galant_Yellow_on_a_driveway.jpg/250px-Mitsubish_Galant_Yellow_on_a_driveway.jpg
The Z cars. 1976-present
http://www.hadesomega.info/Zpic.jpg
Nissan GTR. 1966-present
http://www.gtr-world.net/media/1/20080318-pgc10.jpg
Just cos you don't speak the language doesn't mean they don't have heritage. There are so many stories behind these fine automobiles. Best of all, they all have better HP/L than that hulk of a car you posted.

The number of 70s Z imported vs the number of them "still alive" today says a lot about their reliability and desirabilty (is that a word?).

[PHRiSCo]

In 2001 both my mom and i bought 2 brand new cars. I bought a 2002 Mazda Protege 5 and she bought a 2002 Chevrolet Cavalier. We both paid roughly the same price, about $16k. Only major difference that would effect the cost is that mine was a 5-speed and hers an automatic.

With my purchase I received 140hp, power windows, powers door, power sunroof, cruise control, decent suspension, nice interior, nice exterior, etc..., and don't forget a decent resale value after 3-4 years.

She got basically nothing, 115hp, she had to roll down her windows, had no sunroof, the car is ugly as shit and she didn't even get floor mats. Oh yeah, her resale value after 5 years? I think she got $1400 for it on trade in?

I will never buy a domestic. North American car manufacturers are garbage, I don't care what media reviews say.

[BoneThug]

yeah they do, unless you can think of another reason. they trust the name in reliability. whether other manufacturers are as reliable or not, toyota has a reputation associated with it. ask any joe schmoe walking down the street if they think toyota is reliable.

yeah but so is honda, so are a lot of companies. me and you know a bit more indepth infor on both but the average consumer just knows that both cars dont need a lot of maintenance. regardless of that fact, i still dont think anyone, even if they do think toyotas are the tits of reliability, buys it with the intention of thinking people will think they are smart or cool. for them its just an appliance to get them from point A to point B. if they actually cared they'd buy a car with more personality.

disclaimer, nothing against the MR2 or supra or soarer or lexai. i just mean current gen toyota cars.

[Rich Sandor]

Most of you know I currently sell Fords, so I may seem biased. However, I own & drive 2 Porsches, and I've also worked at a Toyota store, and I'd love to work at a BMW store. Pretty much every major brand out there has a few cars that I really like.

I am NOT biased in any way. I don't diss other makes when people come into my store.

The reality is, that ALL new cars sold in North America these days are VERY reliable, and VERY safe.

Styling, and material quality is a subjective thing. Some people think imports are better in that regard. In the mid 90's, the imports had way better styling than any of the domestics. I think that's changing now. I think BNR32 & Taylor above both nailed it when they said it's an image thing. It is an image thing when people buy a Lincoln or Lexus, people don't want to be seen driving a "cheap" car; but, some people don't care about image.

If you want to talk about patriotism, buying a Toyota made in Canada is no different than buying a Ford made in Canada. The GDP goes to Japan or US, not Canada. BUT, it's better than buying a car made in any other country (as far as patriotism is concerned.)

However, how many people in Vancouver have a drop of patriotism for Canada in them? There are LOTS of immigrants (and locally borns) that just don't give a fuck about their current country. Honestly, what kind of car you drive is not as important as at least speaking the fucking language, paying your taxes, and having some freaking respect for your country!!!

I don't really care what cars people drive, I just don't like ignorant statements like "Imports are better" or "Ford is going out of business because they build shitty cars" Well then I guess Toyota builds shitty cars too since it's asking the Japanese government for money too.

[taylor192]

Just cos you don't speak the language doesn't mean they don't have heritage. There are so many stories behind these fine automobiles. Best of all, they all have better HP/L than that hulk of a car you posted.
I wasn't being a hater, just trying to make a point.

I'll give you the Z-cars, even the early Skylines, yet the rest you posted are fugly. That GTO is gorgeous in comparison.

[taylor192]

In 2001 both my mom and i bought 2 brand new cars. I bought a 2002 Mazda Protege 5 and she bought a 2002 Chevrolet Cavalier. We both paid roughly the same price, about $16k. Only major difference that would effect the cost is that mine was a 5-speed and hers an automatic.

With my purchase I received 140hp, power windows, powers door, power sunroof, cruise control, decent suspension, nice interior, nice exterior, etc..., and don't forget a decent resale value after 3-4 years.

She got basically nothing, 115hp, she had to roll down her windows, had no sunroof, the car is ugly as shit and she didn't even get floor mats. Oh yeah, her resale value after 5 years? I think she got $1400 for it on trade in?

I will never buy a domestic. North American car manufacturers are garbage, I don't care what media reviews say.
Compare a Cobalt and the new Mazda 3 and you'll find its reversed since 2004. The Mazda is more expensive for less options, and those Proteges had some serious engine problems while the Cavalier may be a POS, yet it was a reliable POS.

The new Mazda 3 is fugly, the new Cobalt is decent looking.

[hk20000]

Beauty is in the eye of beholder.

Also we are talking about all imports right, how about Mercedes BMW and Audi etc when it comes to heritage and gorgeous cars? They also put the US cars to shame....

So heritage really isn't a strong point of US cars. It's only ever so true for the genXers who actually experienced how it was back in the 60s and lived to tell it. Newer generation knows better that V8 OHV was not ideal and it isn't something to be really proud of.

Whereas, look in 1976 the Skyline GTR made 150bhp out of 2L, the Corolla series made 115HP out of 1.6L back in the days of the 2T-G with fuel injection (EFI!) in 1970s...If you think of cars as more than "presence" and appreciate their contribution to the automotive world, there is a lot more to write about for German/Japanese auto than US/British automobiles (other than maybe the Mini?)

Just coz those Brits and Yanks speak the loudest in the international stage doesn't mean they made the best automobile....And people know that all too well now to still buy them. British automotive industry is entirely owned by other European countries (other than Aerial, Ascari and Caterham?)....but GM doesn't have the soul or image that is at all desirable in investor's view....I can't see how GM can get out of this one, even after billions of free money...

[BoneThug]

with the exception of the Z cars and the skyline very few of those cars still ilve up to that heritage. no one buys a gallant or a corrola because of its pedigree

[hk20000]

The new Mazda 3 is fugly, the new Cobalt is decent looking.

REALLY? Go drive one.

Mazda3 has totally upped the ante on this generation. It drives and feels very much like a premium subcompact that used to be exclusive to the european market, it feels like a Peugeot 207, it drives like a Peugeot 207 and it even looks like a Peugeot 207.
http://media.aol.hk/drupal/files/images/200808/03/mazda3_la_render_450op.preview.jpghttp://l.yimg.com/dv/i/articles/peugeot_207rc_207cc/peugeot_207rc_x.jpg

Comes with all sorts of stuff you just don't expect in a car at this price range, heated powered seats, in-dash navigation, smart key, 18" rims and all that....

the 2.5 is quite a lot more powerful than the 2.3 as well.

I rented a Cobalt LS for courtesy car and that car is the anatomy of why GM is going to ride the PHAIL boat. It's priced like a Corolla but it's far worse than a Corolla. Everything on the car feels like it's made to a budget, the steering wheel is numb, the gear change is bad there is no control for 2nd and 3rd gear because the gear pattern is PRNDIL what the hell is I? You have 0 control into what gear it's going to use when you slot it in I...The gear gates are vague (yes I'm talking about automatic!) and I can't be sure what gear I'm in without looking down. Once you look down it's just another bit of disappoinment, the gear indicator is basically a piece of red paper that's slid under the plastic window.....in 2009? Come on....
http://l.yimg.com/dv/izp/chevrolet_cobalt_ss_turbocharged_sedan_2009_interi or_gearshift.jpg
Every time I get into the car I'm very glad and very depressed at the same time. I'm depressed that I can't afford a better car, but I'm glad it's not really my car. There is no "pleasant surprise" after I sunk some miles into it either.... A corolla is actually surprising that it handles quite truthfully to your inputs, and you can enjoy playing with it somewhat. The Cobalt - WTF? I don't know about the SS but the base LS chassis is so unsorted I don't know where to start.

The seats are fat and wide and thick, making rear seats super uncomfortable because the knee room is compromised... the trunk is not small but the opening is.

It just doesn't feel like it's a product that has gone through enough time in the R&D lab. R&D+cheap material can still be decent, but no R&D = no way is the product going to end up ok....Just my 2 cents.

That's what's been putting GM and Chrysler cars into a tight spot now - less money, less R&D, less quality, less buyers less money. It's a viscous cycle that will eventually eat them alive.

The 2009 Ford Focus my sister rented was ooooo kkkkkkkk but I still wouldn't own one. It does come with satellite radio, pretty good stereo and some oomph when you press the loud pedal. Ford Focus is a good car for its money. But it has the image problem like GM and Chrysler just coz they make so many rentals.

[taylor192]

Beauty is in the eye of beer-holder.
Fixed
If you think of cars as more than "presence" and appreciate their contribution to the automotive world, there is a lot more to write about for German/Japanese auto than US/British automobiles (other than maybe the Mini?)
Agreed.
Just coz those Yanks speak the loudest in the international stage doesn't mean they made the best automobile....And people know that all too well now to still buy them. I can't see how GM can get out of this one, even after billions of free money...
America has one thing going for it: pride.

Americans proudly display their flags, and once they realize new GMs are just as reliable and stylish, they'll be loving domestic cars again.

The imports had their chance to flourish in America with unfair import taxation and associated domestic cost-cutting of the 80s and 90s. This crisis will finally level the playing field, then game's on.

[orange7]

noo.. please stay GM!!

I actually like the corvette, even though i wouldn't buy it if i have the money.. unless i'm a billionair! ahah

but seriously.. corvette is the gtr killer.. with that gone.. gtr fanboys would be jumping

[orange7]

i like the new mazda 3 and 6...

[taylor192]

REALLY? Go drive one.

Mazda3 has totally upped the ante on this generation.

My apologies, I just looked up the differences on the 2009/10.
My coworker had a 2008 GS and it didn't have power windows/... nice to see the price is lower for the 2009s and power windows/... have been added.

[hk20000]

yeah they upped the price too.

It's a strategy thing we'll see how it pans out. The middle grade is quite well priced (the grade with power group but no fat alloys and navi)

Pride is great but it's time they looked down from over their heads and think what is there to be proud of for cars to come....

Also I'd like to mention that the interior problem of domestic cars is not really that they are cheap - with all sorts of recycling laws most cars have cheap ass plastics interior, but in US cars you are more likely to find small nuiances that just annoys the hell out of you. For example, I can't recline my seat in the Cobalt without opening the door, when the handbrake is down on the Focus it's resting on the seat cushion..... If cars are softwares I feel like buying an open-beta car if I buy domestic, and a fully tested software if I buy imports. For Europeans it's more like buying a subscription and you have to get "firmware updates" every now and then.

But public beta is usually free, and people are not that willing to pay for them, this pretty much is what people are thinking.

[RenoMan]

Problem Fucken solved:
http://www.carcomplaints.com/

thats the mainsite

heres the cars now tell me how many are domestic and how many are imports?
below are the worst:

http://www.carcomplaints.com/worst_complaints.shtml

http://www.carcomplaints.com/top_vehicles.shtml


why would you get something with bad rep?

[MR_BIGGS]

END THREAD!

[q0192837465]

I dunno, I'd still pay more for a BMW/Merc/Audi. Either I buy another Euro or I dun buy 1 at all. For me, a car is a statement. It's an extension of who I am. Therefore, I wouldnt buy a domestic just cuz it's a couple of grand cheaper.

For example. I understand full well that a CTS is as good of a car as a 5 series but significantly cheaper. Yet I still won't buy a CTS cuz I'd rather have a BMW. We spend so much time each day in a car and I think it's important to really like wut u drive cuz u'r gonna be stuck with it for a long time.

[RenoMan]

stupid thread its so obvious why. all about money and what your uses are.

[L-S-D]

hahahahaha that taylor kid got pwnt


thats what i thot.

[taylor192]

hahahahaha that taylor kid got pwnt


thats what i thot.
How so?

The only kid here is you, the one that cannot type a proper sentence. Did mommy buy your car too? Ask her to type your posts as well.

[BoneThug]

I dunno, I'd still pay more for a BMW/Merc/Audi. Either I buy another Euro or I dun buy 1 at all. For me, a car is a statement. It's an extension of who I am. Therefore, I wouldnt buy a domestic just cuz it's a couple of grand cheaper.

For example. I understand full well that a CTS is as good of a car as a 5 series but significantly cheaper. Yet I still won't buy a CTS cuz I'd rather have a BMW. We spend so much time each day in a car and I think it's important to really like wut u drive cuz u'r gonna be stuck with it for a long time.

partially agree with this. id get euro cause they are more enjoyable to drive. why waste money (even if its 10k cheaper its still a waste) on something you wont enjoy

[Rich Sandor]

Problem Fucken solved:
http://www.carcomplaints.com/

thats the mainsite

heres the cars now tell me how many are domestic and how many are imports?
below are the worst:

http://www.carcomplaints.com/worst_complaints.shtml

http://www.carcomplaints.com/top_vehicles.shtml


why would you get something with bad rep?

Umm, you're over simplifying it a bit. That site is great to see what the common complaints on a particular make & model are, but you shouldn't use it to gauge reliability, because you don't know how many are sold vs the other vehicles of similar make/model/year. Data is useless if you don't know how to interpret it.

There are definately some vehicles that are more problematic than others, but that doesn't mean the brand sucks either. There's a civic and accord on that list too - I highly doubt anyone on here would agree they are shitty cars just because they made the list.

[taylor192]

stupid thread its so obvious why. all about money and what your uses are.
Only if your mindset is everyone drives an Acura/Lexus/Audi/BMW/... despite what you think, that's only a small fragment of the population.

There was a thread about "How do people get so rich in Vancouver" http://www.revscene.net/forums/do-people-get-t566835.html?t=566835
Conclusion: only a few are rich, we just notice them more often.

Most people drive a Corolla, Civic, Camry, Cavalier, Focus, Yaris, ... daily drivers that aren't exactly high on style, and more about practical reliable transportation. The question is why do more Vancouverites choose Asian brands over domestic?

[taylor192]

Problem Fucken solved:
http://www.carcomplaints.com/

That site sucks, there's only 1 year of C230s on it, and the C230 has been around for a decade. Any site with that low of volume cannot be statistically trusted.

JD Powers is a better gauge, yet I gave up after reading that Hummer gets ranked poorly for quality cause people complain about the gas mileage! WTF! You buy a Hummer you don't get to complain about gas mileage!

[Harvey Specter]

Yup, carcomplaints.com sucks. You are better off with JD Power but they're also known to be bias at times.

[!LittleDragon]

Prior to the 1989 Camry, Toyota basically made junk: square ugly econoboxes. I owned a 1990 Camry, awesome car, yet would not buy a 2009 Camry, its too big and has lost the fun factor that car had. If I was buying today I'd take a Malibu.

Ever driven a 1970 GTO "The Judge"? My brother had this one (same year, colour, ...)
http://www.gtoalley.com/gtopics/pjgto2.jpg

Find me one Toyota that matches the history of The Judge.

Time change, stop being a sheep.



The Celica... then they kinda went downhill when Toyota changed it to FWD... Toyota did at one time build products I would buy, in the 90's they had 3 sports cars (Alltrac, MR2, Supra) in their lineup not counting the Lexus SC.

There's a lot of misconception in this thread, the Vibe and Matrix have similar resale prices and domestics don't do fleet sales to rental companies anymore (the past 3-4 years I rented a car, I was given a Camry, Hyundai, Volvo and an X3). Since GM has pulled out of rental cars, Toyota has taken over that spot, go have a look at the cars that Hertz has to offer, take a drive to the airport car rentals and see for yourself. I'm taking a drive to California next month and I hope I get the Chevy Malibu that I booked instead of another Camry. I just want to see how GM has improved cuz I could tell how Toyota has cut corners. In a Camry with 300kms, I can see parts of the dash starting to peel up, parts of the interior just seem unfinished, etc...

[RenoMan]

a couple of bad apples in 1 brand does not mean much. But to ignore the models made by the brand itself. Ignorance. <<-------- that you just proved it yourself by saying " There's a civic and accord on that list too" I'm not saying that the particular brand who make the different models is list of shit cars. I'm saying generally do you wanna buy something that is known to have a bad rep???either way when you buy a car your gona have this stuff in the back of your mind, right? example, If you were one day told to choose between the two brands, which would you choose Chinese vs Other Brand?WE THRIVE ON NEGATIVITY and human nature to just avoid trouble in the future.
Personally i like some Ford cars and some chevys but they just have a bad rep and the facts show it .

[RenoMan]

Only if your mindset is everyone drives an Acura/Lexus/Audi/BMW/... despite what you think, that's only a small fragment of the population.

There was a thread about "How do people get so rich in Vancouver" http://www.revscene.net/forums/do-people-get-t566835.html?t=566835
Conclusion: only a few are rich, we just notice them more often.

Most people drive a Corolla, Civic, Camry, Cavalier, Focus, Yaris, ... daily drivers that aren't exactly high on style, and more about practical reliable transportation. The question is why do more Vancouverites choose Asian brands over domestic?


Why?? reliability spreads the WORD which equals to good rep and reviews, which results in more sales.

[InvisibleSoul]

I couldn't care less where my vehicle is made or whether it's domestic or imported.

I care about getting the best overall value for my dollar.

[Lomac]

[/B]


Why?? reliability spreads the WORD which equals to good rep and reviews, which results in more sales.

But then car companies try to play off of that presumed reliability (again, I bring up the point of GM doing this in the past and Toyota's current downward quality trend), even when it's not deserved.

[Nightwalker]

I couldn't care less where my vehicle is made or whether it's domestic or imported.

I care about getting the best overall value for my dollar.

Exactly, and we're in a capitalist society. Sink or swim guys!

It's not like any of the companies are Canadian either.

My first brand new vehicle I bought last year was a Jeep, but it had nothing to do with domestic or import or anything like that. They had the best vehicle for what I needed, at the best price.

[fT-z33wor]

Im a huge GM guy and I can still laugh at this.

I actually laughed my ass off. :haha:

Haha I actually don't have anything against GM either, I just couldn't help but post it cause the opportunity arose :haha:

[toyota86]

i have no loyalty towards the US/Canadian auto industry. there i've said it. What I really mean is that I will not buy anything designed for or built specifically for the north american market. So obviously almost all of the GM, chrysler, ford products. I will also never buy the US only imports for example, newer toyota camry, US only honda accord, bmw x5. you get the picture. I dont hate gm, chrysler, ford at all. i would love to have to have a g8 gxp (holden commodore hsv), an euro ford cosworth escort (closest thing is a merkur xr4ti), or a dodge sprinter van (mercedes made) for hauling stuff. i think the arguement is not import or domestics. but whether or not manufacturers from all over the globe are supplying the us/canadian market with what they really want.

[taylor192]

Why?? reliability spreads the WORD which equals to good rep and reviews, which results in more sales.
GM and Ford are just as reliable lately, and if you visit Ontario or eastern Canada you'll find domestics outnumber imports.

Toyota just barely had more worldwide sales than GM, and that's with Japanese protectionism preventing GM sales there.

So why do imports outnumber domestics so much in this city? The answer is simple: immigrants. The same people that cheer for their own countries rather than Canada at the Olympics also buy cars not made in North America. Toyota and Honda may build cars here, yet GM and Ford put Ontario cities on the map and have done far more for our country for far longer.

[!LittleDragon]

So why do imports outnumber domestics so much in this city? The answer is simple: immigrants. The same people that cheer for their own countries rather than Canada at the Olympics also buy cars not made in North America.

I dunno how you came to that conclusion when you don't see the same phenomenon in other big immigrant cities like San Francisco. The numbers don't even add up. According to Wikipedia, eastern and southeaster asians are the biggest visible minority group in Vancouver but they only make up roughly 1/4 the population, are you saying 1/4 the population makes up more than 50% of the car buying population? FYI, the majority of Vancouver's immigrants are from.... Europe..

[Kang19]

Find me a domestic car that actually competes with a BMW or an Audi and I will consider it.

[Great68]

Find me a domestic car that actually competes with a BMW or an Audi and I will consider it.

2008 car of the year Cadillac CTS-V?

http://image.motortrend.com/f/8213945/112_0803_05z+2009_cadillac_CTS_V+interior_driver_s ide.jpg

You really can't say they can't build a decent interior anymore

[Kang19]

handling/performance doesn't compare

[hk20000]

^ they do, but as soon as that interior pic popped up I thought "hey nice Genesis coupe.....wait what?"
http://www.orbitcast.com/archives/genesis-coupe-interior-2.jpg
Damn they look the freaking same other than one having 3 gauges and one has 2...

No the interior doesn't stack up.
http://image.motortrend.com/f/9236615/112_0704_19z+2009_bmw_m3+interior.jpg

[Great68]

*cough*

handling/performance doesn't compare

"The CTS-V achieved a lap time of 7:59.32 at the famed Nürburgring Nordschleife, which is the fastest documented time for a production sedan on factory tires."

No, doesn't even compare at all....

[Kang19]

*cough*



"The CTS-V achieved a lap time of 7:59.32 at the famed Nürburgring Nordschleife, which is the fastest documented time for a production sedan on factory tires."

No, doesn't even compare at all....


I don't know much about numbers and that shit. All I'm saying is, when I drive a BMW/Audi, it feels a lot better than when I drive a cadillac. I dunno, I guess that's just one man's opinion then...

[Meowjin]

thats because your mom is a fucking idiot for buying a cavalier.

[taylor192]

I don't know much about numbers and that shit. All I'm saying is, when I drive a BMW/Audi, it feels a lot better than when I drive a cadillac. I dunno, I guess that's just one man's opinion then...

One wrong opinion. What's the last Cadillac you've driven? I bet you're ignorantly stating a wrong opinion without having driven one lately.

[taylor192]

I dunno how you came to that conclusion when you don't see the same phenomenon in other big immigrant cities like San Francisco. The numbers don't even add up. According to Wikipedia, eastern and southeaster asians are the biggest visible minority group in Vancouver but they only make up roughly 1/4 the population, are you saying 1/4 the population makes up more than 50% of the car buying population? FYI, the majority of Vancouver's immigrants are from.... Europe..
Shall I highlight the word "imports" in my post. I didn't pick on just Asian imports.

Have you been to San Francisco? I just got back, and can tell you its not much different than here, yet certainly not Dallas where most of the cars are domestic.

Any city (especially port cities) with a significant immigrant population is going to show similar stats.

[Great68]

^ they do, but as soon as that interior pic popped up I thought "hey nice Genesis coupe.....wait what?"

Damn they look the freaking same other than one having 3 gauges and one has 2...



You can't blame Hyundai for trying to copy Cadillac.



No the interior doesn't stack up.
http://image.motortrend.com/f/9236615/112_0704_19z+2009_bmw_m3+interior.jpg

What's so spectacular about that?

[some_punk]

cause too many people are morons, and will immediately find a problem with anything with a domestic badge. even if it is a rebadged toyota.

[heleu]

If you want to talk about patriotism, buying a Toyota made in Canada is no different than buying a Ford made in Canada. The GDP goes to Japan or US, not Canada. BUT, it's better than buying a car made in any other country (as far as patriotism is concerned.)

However, how many people in Vancouver have a drop of patriotism for Canada in them? There are LOTS of immigrants (and locally borns) that just don't give a fuck about their current country. Honestly, what kind of car you drive is not as important as at least speaking the fucking language, paying your taxes, and having some freaking respect for your country!!!


If patriotism is defined as buying a car that benefits a country's economy, you can't just look at GDP. At the end of the day, Toyota (in Japan) reaps the profits from the plants in Canada/US. GDP just measures the total value of goods produced in a country.

Up until 1992, the GNP was used; The GNP measures all domestic outputs regardless of where the products are made.

As for the other aspects; this is so subjective. I'm in agreement that if you can't appreciate something about all brands, you're close-minded.

You might hate the current Hyundai Accent because it has a cheap image, but then again, it's hard to argue that it doesn't have one of the best "Bang for the buck" of any new car.

By the same token, you might hate the CTS-V for not having refinement, a nice interior, or a "euro" look, but you can't dispute the performance.

[!LittleDragon]

Shall I highlight the word "imports" in my post. I didn't pick on just Asian imports.

I didn't "pick" on them either. In fact, I never differentiated in my post between Asian and Euro imports. I was speaking of the immigrant population and Asians stand out as the biggest group of visible immigrants here. The biggest group of immigrants are Europeans however they don't stand out in a mostly Caucasian population so it's hard to say when you see one driving an Audi or Toyota that he/she is an immigrant.

Have you been to San Francisco? I just got back, and can tell you its not much different than here, yet certainly not Dallas where most of the cars are domestic.

I spend about a month there every year and it's nowhere near the same proportions of imports to domestics over there. They're about equal depending on what part of the city you're in.

Any city (especially port cities) with a significant immigrant population is going to show similar stats.


NYC, huge amounts of European immigrants yet mostly American cars are driven. Noticed the same thing in Boston as well. BMW's and Mercs aren't as common and there are still a lot of old Cadillacs on the road. I think it has a lot to do with the American dream being shoved down your throat as soon as you enter the country. You know, the little house with the white picket fence for your 1.5 kids and the big American sedan... I'll let you know how it's like in Missoula, MT when I go visit our head office next month... lol

[taylor192]

I think it has a lot to do with the American dream being shoved down your throat as soon as you enter the country. You know, the little house with the white picket fence for your 1.5 kids and the big American sedan...
Better than Japanese protectionism, at least people have a choice.

[Meowjin]

handling/performance doesn't compare

so have you driven one?

[Kang19]

so have you driven one?

Yes...

[MarkyMark]

Yes...

Perhaps you were so biased that you didn't even try to like the car?

Or perhaps you have never actually driven it and you just said you have so you don't look like you're just making shit up lol

[Meowjin]

Yes...

bull fucking shit.

[hk20000]

What's so spectacular about that?
iDrive bitches! :haha:

No that's a joke. But at least BMW always tries to be innovative. Cadillac was like that back in the 90s actually just walk up to those really old barges Cadillac made back in the late 80s early 90s.....then the innovations start to disappear. Then it's just another GM product. :(

[hk20000]

bull fucking shit.

Maybe he was like James May. Never understood the point of a CTS-V until he took it up some twisties.

And there are no twisties around here. :haha:

[Kang19]

Why would you ask me when you've already decided that I haven't driven it? You're basically telling me that I am not allowed to have the opinion that driving a BMW/Audi feels better than a Cadillac...Cool.

[q0192837465]

Why would you ask me when you've already decided that I haven't driven it? You're basically telling me that I am not allowed to have the opinion that driving a BMW/Audi feels better than a Cadillac...Cool.

Well, that's your opinion. And we respect that.

But the fact is that the new CTS is at least on par with the 5 series in most aspects. So saying that you dun like it is fine. But saying that it sucks is just ignorant.

[MR_BIGGS]

But ignorance is bliss? just saying..

[ELITE_TRAYUNZE]

Why would you ask me when you've already decided that I haven't driven it? You're basically telling me that I am not allowed to have the opinion that driving a BMW/Audi feels better than a Cadillac...Cool.

Sorry guys, I'm gonna have to agree with him.

Last Caddi I drove was the 2008 CTS. The clutch pedal was very stiff with inconsistent engagement. The shifter was rather clunky and requires a lot of effort and most importantly, it resists smooth, quick gearchanges. Everytime you change the throttle position, the car lets out this strange moaning sound. Fix the powertrain, and shit, cut some weight off and I am all up for the CTS, but until then there is no way I choose it over a 3 series. Keep in mind though, I drove an 08 model so I am not sure if they improved with the 09.

[Lomac]

Maybe he was like James May. Never understood the point of a CTS-V until he took it up some twisties.

And there are no twisties around here. :haha:

There are plenty. You just need to know where to look. ;)

[Great68]

Perhaps you were so biased that you didn't even try to like the car?

Or perhaps you have never actually driven it and you just said you have so you don't look like you're just making shit up lol

Motortrend named the Cadillac car of the year, not the BMW.

Personally I'd put more trust on the opinion of a professional car magazine over some dude on Revscene (Kang)

[Meowjin]

you really have to be insane. If cadillac had better lease rates when I was looking for a car (acura at .9 percent blew it out of the water) i would have purchased the much nicer CTS.

[Kang19]

2008 or 2009? The cadillac I drove was also a manual 6-speed CTS DI. I would rather have a 2008 BMW 328i than a 2008 Cadillac CTS. I don't think it's insane for me to say so.

[BoneThug]

its not insane at all considering the 3 is the bench mark. if other cars are as good thats cool but it doesnt make liking the 3 more a weird thing.

[Kang19]

CarAndDriver.com takes the 2008 328i over the 2009 CTS-DI. Are they insane too?

[fetched]

^ they do, but as soon as that interior pic popped up I thought "hey nice Genesis coupe.....wait what?"
http://www.orbitcast.com/archives/genesis-coupe-interior-2.jpg
Damn they look the freaking same other than one having 3 gauges and one has 2...

No the interior doesn't stack up.
http://image.motortrend.com/f/9236615/112_0704_19z+2009_bmw_m3+interior.jpg

Out of all the cars to compare, you chose the bimmer's interior. bmw's are known for their ugly interiors compared with other german manufactures. But then i guess your trying to make a point, the ugliest german is still better than the prettiest american. =D

[fetched]

Motortrend named the Cadillac car of the year, not the BMW.

Personally I'd put more trust on the opinion of a professional car magazine over some dude on Revscene (Kang)

The E90 3 Series, which is the current one on the market, was named World Car of the year in 2006. If your comparing the new Cadillac to the out dated 3 series, I believe most people would still pick the out dated 3 series, as many journalist will as well.

[Great68]

The E90 3 Series, which is the current one on the market, was named World Car of the year in 2006. If your comparing the new Cadillac to the out dated 3 series, I believe most people would still pick the out dated 3 series, as many journalist will as well.

Regardless, the original comment was:

"Find me a domestic car that actually competes with a BMW or an Audi "

Clearly there is, the accolades prove it.

But if those people want to live in a shroud of ignorance, then so be it.

[LanEvoVII]

The Celica... then they kinda went downhill when Toyota changed it to FWD... Toyota did at one time build products I would buy, in the 90's they had 3 sports cars (Alltrac, MR2, Supra) in their lineup not counting the Lexus SC.

There's a lot of misconception in this thread, the Vibe and Matrix have similar resale prices and domestics don't do fleet sales to rental companies anymore (the past 3-4 years I rented a car, I was given a Camry, Hyundai, Volvo and an X3). Since GM has pulled out of rental cars, Toyota has taken over that spot, go have a look at the cars that Hertz has to offer, take a drive to the airport car rentals and see for yourself. I'm taking a drive to California next month and I hope I get the Chevy Malibu that I booked instead of another Camry. I just want to see how GM has improved cuz I could tell how Toyota has cut corners. In a Camry with 300kms, I can see parts of the dash starting to peel up, parts of the interior just seem unfinished, etc...

sorry to let you know but domestics still do fleet sales to rental car companies. the cars i get for my customers range from domestics to nissans, mazdas, and toyotas. It really depends what the rental car companies want to buy or negotiate.

[Rich Sandor]

sorry to let you know but domestics still do fleet sales to rental car companies. the cars i get for my customers range from domestics to nissans, mazdas, and toyotas. It really depends what the rental car companies want to buy or negotiate.

Ford has scaled back it's rental fleet sales DRASTICALLY. Yes Ford still supplies some rentals, but the majority of them are now Econolines, whereas the majority used to be medium-large sedans.

Toyota has essentially picked up that ball, and will have similar experiences with product depreciation as their ex-rentals start hitting the auction blocks.

[kc1337]

This guy I know choose the CTS-V over an AMG C63. And hes never been more happier.

Slalom, skidpad, 1/4mile, 0-60 times are better than any of the German rivals be it M3, M5, M6, AMG.

[XtC-604]

noo.. please stay GM!!

I actually like the corvette, even though i wouldn't buy it if i have the money.. unless i'm a billionair! ahah

but seriously.. corvette is the gtr killer.. with that gone.. gtr fanboys would be jumping
Its not only about track times, trust me if you are given a GT-R and a Corvette to drive on the track, you would achieve much faster times with the GT-R. Truth of the matter is, unless you're the stig the Corvette is either going to kill you when you try to push it or you will too scared shitless. Not to mention you also get a bumper on the GT-R that doesn't bend from me leaning into it

Problem Fucken solved:
http://www.carcomplaints.com/

thats the mainsite

heres the cars now tell me how many are domestic and how many are imports?
below are the worst:

http://www.carcomplaints.com/worst_complaints.shtml

http://www.carcomplaints.com/top_vehicles.shtml


why would you get something with bad rep?
Except you dont have a sample size, its just submitted by people. There could've been 3213214214 hondas sold and 3000 reported problems. And 23123 fords and 4000 reported problems. Data is useless without a sample size.

*cough*



"The CTS-V achieved a lap time of 7:59.32 at the famed Nürburgring Nordschleife, which is the fastest documented time for a production sedan on factory tires."

No, doesn't even compare at all....
lol @ factory tires, that has gotta be the most dictionary copy and past comment lol. The BMWs use off the shelf PS2s. The Cadillac on the other hand uses special patterned and compound PS2s made specifically for the CTS-V. Incase you dont know the PS2s are also found on pretty much an coupe/sedan BMW has to offer. So if you gave the M5 better tires as stock equipment i'm sure it would out lap the CTS-V

Regardless, the original comment was:

"Find me a domestic car that actually competes with a BMW or an Audi "

Clearly there is, the accolades prove it.

But if those people want to live in a shroud of ignorance, then so be it.
Lolololol being in the competition IE price range doesn't make it a competitor. Sorry when i look at cars i look at the FOCUS of the car. In Domestics such as the corvette, its all about the straight line speed, the interior is shit, the trim is crap and every piece of that body feels like plastic.

This guy I know choose the CTS-V over an AMG C63. And hes never been more happier.

Slalom, skidpad, 1/4mile, 0-60 times are better than any of the German rivals be it M3, M5, M6, AMG.
I'd trade some laptime and straight line for some nice interior and a SICK devillish look.

[slammer111]

Wow, and the thread is officially revived. :D

Maybe I'm just oldschool, but after having domestics for 25 years in the family growing up and watching car after car die on us (our record is 140000km), both my sister and I picked up imports as our 1st cars. Sure dumb things have broken here and there, but unlike pretty much every domestic we've had, these ones so far haven't left us stranded on the road repeatedly.

Mind you, I'm only at 88000km right now, so only time will tell. Ask me in a few years. Personally I've sworn off domestics. It took a long time patience to push me over the edge, but now that it's happened, it'll take a while to convince me back, even if their domestics are now 100% reliable. I will admit I am extremely biased against domestics right now, and unless that changes, GM and Chrysler are not getting another dime from me. It's all about perception.

[.Renn.Sport]

*cough*



"The CTS-V achieved a lap time of 7:59.32 at the famed Nürburgring Nordschleife, which is the fastest documented time for a production sedan on factory tires."

No, doesn't even compare at all....

the fastest production sedan now belong to the Panamera

[fishing666]

needs good reliability through data or word of mouth
needs good resale value even if i dont plan on selling
needs to look good
needs luxury features. powered everything. sunroof. a/c. cd mp3 radio
needs powerful engine w/ good efficiency
needs to be safe
needs to cheap

but u know that's a lot of work.

just word of mouth and something that everybody already has or want is enough for the purchase

[ilvtofu]

lol @ factory tires, that has gotta be the most dictionary copy and past comment lol. The BMWs use off the shelf PS2s. The Cadillac on the other hand uses special patterned and compound PS2s made specifically for the CTS-V. Incase you dont know the PS2s are also found on pretty much an coupe/sedan BMW has to offer. So if you gave the M5 better tires as stock equipment i'm sure it would out lap the CTS-V


Lolololol being in the competition IE price range doesn't make it a competitor. Sorry when i look at cars i look at the FOCUS of the car. In Domestics such as the corvette, its all about the straight line speed, the interior is shit, the trim is crap and every piece of that body feels like plastic.


I'd trade some laptime and straight line for some nice interior and a SICK devillish look.

What do you base the M5 with better tires out lapping the CTS-V on the nurburgring on? It's almost 15 seconds slower as is. The difference between the 997 Turbo and GT2 is less than 10 seconds... For some reason an equivalent tire would improve the M5 that much?

Lol corvette is all about straight line speed? You need to get out more my friend

Are you saying the C63 has a nicer interior than the CTS-V? if so :haha::haha::haha::haha:

Oh and BTW thanks for bumping an ancient thread

[Meowjin]

it's still 9 months later, and anyone who thinks the cadillac has an inferior interior is clearly a moron.

sat in my friends 335i the other day, and it didn't compete, and i sat in his brothers new a4 and it doesn't even come close.

[XtC-604]

What do you base the M5 with better tires out lapping the CTS-V on the nurburgring on? It's almost 15 seconds slower as is. The difference between the 997 Turbo and GT2 is less than 10 seconds... For some reason an equivalent tire would improve the M5 that much?

Lol corvette is all about straight line speed? You need to get out more my friend

Are you saying the C63 has a nicer interior than the CTS-V? if so :haha::haha::haha::haha:

Oh and BTW thanks for bumping an ancient thread
Have you ever driven on the PS2s? they are NOTHING for any performance car. I don't think it will give it the 14s it needs but i can be hopeful on that. When i meant the Corvette is for straight line speed, i meant the people who buy them are really looking for that. Sure it can handle but as the Stig demonstrated most people that are non professional won't be able to throw it around a track like that. And interiors aren't only about feel and look its also about the experience of being inside. The fucking bonging sound on that caddy is annoying at best and the in dash they used looks like it came out of a fisher price toy. Sorry i'm still going to say the C63 Amg interior is better http://preview.subscribers.wardsauto.com/images/2008/03/mercedes-c63-amg-2008-interior.jpg

Not to mention the Cadillac that pulled the 7:59 is also the 09 model with a much bigger engine, 6.2L supercharged V8. If you want to be fair about it compare the current M5 which is going to be replaced soon with the 1st gen Cadillac CTS-V, oh woops those didn't even make it on the fastest times board :( The new M5 is coming 2011 or end of 2010 so we'll see then

[Timpo]

Japan has strict import laws on foreign cars that makes selling NA cars there very difficult. This is unfair trade practice where Japan can sell cars here easily and we cannot sell there.
ok I don't understand this part, and I hear this all time how Japan has some rules not to sell American cars.

But when I visited Japan, I saw a lot of BMW, Jaguar, Ferrari, Mercedes, and some Lambos.
Not many American cars except Chrysler 300 and Corvette.

Is that because of strict rules towards American vehicle? :confused:

[falcon]

Because they realize how shitty they are and don't want them in their country.

[dread604]

"Patriotic" rednecks are the dumbest people on earth :haha:

If they're so "patriotic" they should stop eating since modern food is grown and processed throughout the world and sold internationally. They should STFU until they grow all their own food.

These same patriotic dickwads should make their own clothes, stop using all electronics, live on the street since their homes ALL contain imported components.

These same dumb fucks that buy only "Domestic cars" because "it's patriotic" should be shot for being so stupid. Their "patriotic" POS cars are made with components and materials sourced from OTHER countries and many are very often ASSEMBLED in other countries LOL!

Theses same people are almost always of lower class who don't understand business and don't understand economics.. or anything pertaining to reason LOL!

[!LittleDragon]

Not to mention the Cadillac that pulled the 7:59 is also the 09 model with a much bigger engine, 6.2L supercharged V8. If you want to be fair about it compare the current M5 which is going to be replaced soon with the 1st gen Cadillac CTS-V, oh woops those didn't even make it on the fastest times board :( The new M5 is coming 2011 or end of 2010 so we'll see then

So you don't think it's fair to compare a 2009 CTS-V with the current M5 because it's a few years older? Yet you think it's more fair to compare the current M5 with the 1st gen CTS-V that came out years before the M5 did?

[spenny]

Loyalty? To what?

I'm pretty sure my Si was made in Ontario... does that make me loyal to my country?

[jlenko]

Do Lower Mainlanders really have no loyalty towards the US/Canadian auto industry?

Loyal to the countries you all came from... though why you came here to begin with, when all you do is fucking bitch about it all day every day, is beyond me.

[XtC-604]

So you don't think it's fair to compare a 2009 CTS-V with the current M5 because it's a few years older? Yet you think it's more fair to compare the current M5 with the 1st gen CTS-V that came out years before the M5 did?
uh, the 1st gen CTS-V came out 1 and half year earlier than the current M5, the 2nd gen CTS-V is 3.5 years newer than the current M5.

[!LittleDragon]

uh, the 1st gen CTS-V came out 1 and half year earlier than the current M5, the 2nd gen CTS-V is 3.5 years newer than the current M5.

It's still a generation back. When the CTS-V came out, the E60 5 series already came out. At 400hp, the 1st generation CTS-V was developed as competition for the E39 M5.

[falcon]

Why does it matter? Not like any of you will buy one anyways.

[dread604]

Why does it matter? Not like any of you will buy one anyways.

I will never buy a POS Chevy that's for sure! :D

[hk20000]

we are loyal to our conveniences.

stopping by the roadside and wait for BCAA is not part of that, capiche?

Not to mention somehow Ford has the guts to charge the same PDI and delivery as Japanese vehicle which clearly came from another continent.

[Lomac]

we are loyal to our conveniences.

stopping by the roadside and wait for BCAA is not part of that, capiche?

Not to mention somehow Ford has the guts to charge the same PDI and delivery as Japanese vehicle which clearly came from another continent.

Funny you should say that...

Here's a list of Japanese cars made in North America:
Honda CRV
Honda Civic
Honda Element
Honda Odyssey
Honda Pilot
Honda Accord

Acura ZDX
Acura MDX
Acura CSX
Acura TL

Toyota Corolla
Toyota Matrix
Toyota Rav4
Toyota Camry
Toyota Avalon
Toyota Solara 'vert
Toyota Venza
Toyota Prius

Lexus RX



...etc, etc, etc...

And that's just a fraction of Japanese cars made here in North America.

[El Bastardo]

Loyal to the countries you all came from... though why you came here to begin with, when all you do is fucking bitch about it all day every day, is beyond me.


RS is especially awesome for this....


Theses same people are almost always of lower class who don't understand business and don't understand economics.. or anything pertaining to reason LOL!


I think communities that saw tens of thousands of layoffs as a result of auto plant closures would disagree with your elitist sentiment. They're trying to support an industry which has put countless families into hardship due to plant closures (which themselves were a result of oil disputes and automotive retail wars).

Sure some "car patriots" cling to the glory days of the 50s to early 70s when American cars were functional pieces of art. Sure some of these people are out of touch. But that doesn't mean they're wrong.