Jackygor
05-11-2009, 12:58 PM
http://blogs.edmunds.com/roadtests/2009/05/2008-mitsubishi-lancer-evolution-x-mr-are-shift-paddles-for-wimps.html#more
2008 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X MR: Are Shift Paddles for Wimps?
http://blogs.edmunds.com/roadtests/TGIRacingbyGetrag.jpg
It's hard to know whether a dual-clutch automated manual transmission is a high-performance gearbox or just a more fuel-efficient automatic. And even after the introduction in the last year of dual-clutch transmissions from BMW, Mitsubishi and Porsche, there's still no resolution of the question.
When BMW introduced its SMG (Sequential Manual Gearbox), single-clutch automated transmission for the M3 and M5, I found myself one of the few who thought of it as an aid to quicker lap times. Everyone else whined endlessly about shift shock, which tells you that their frame of reference was the automatic transmission.
The Getrag-built, PowerShift 6DCT470 transmission in the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution (which Mitsubishi calls Twin-Clutch Sportronic Shift Transmission, or TC-SST), is a dual-clutch design that combines the best of automatic and manual operation. In automatic mode, you just drive around and the gearbox upshifts and downshifts by itself. When you really leg the Evo in automatic mode, the transmission kicks down pretty rapidly. And this dual-clutch transmission creeps forward effectively at low speed, something that single-clutch automated manuals struggle with. (Although the latest Grazino single-clutch automated manual with Magneti Marelli software as used by the Aston Martin Vantage has been programmed with a very smart creep mode that even compensates for speed bumps in parking lots.)
Around town, you engage TC-SST's Normal mode, which shifts at relatively low rpm for good fuel economy and optimal comfort. Once you engage Sport mode, the shift points climb higher in the rpm range and the shifting action is quicker. And then the S-Sport mode executes the quickest shifts possible, so there's a detectable amount of shift shock. You can shift manually or let the electronics shift for you in any of the modes, and you can change from automatic to manual mode simply by tugging at one of the shift paddles on the steering wheel.
It's a pretty great transmission by any measure. BMW clearly thinks so as well, because this Getrag design is featured in the new M3, only in a configuration rated for the rear-wheel-drive M3's 400-hp 4.0-liter V8. And dual-clutch designs are getting even better, as those of us who have driven the new Porsche 911 Carrera with its ZF-designed PDK transmission report.
Yet there's still no resolution of the central question about the automated manual transmission. It is a performance transmission or just a unique automatic? BMW seems to regard it as performance device, while Porsche admits that its PDK option is simply a replacement for its former Tiptronic automatic. Meanwhile Mitsubishi makes available a conventional five-speed manual transmission for the Evolution, because the manual has more a substantial gearset that can withstand the anticipated torque loads in racing or when the engine is modified for more power.
In fact, our decision to not specify the dual-clutch option in our 2009 BMW M3 long-term test car had much to do with our preference for using a clutch and a shift lever, even though it's essentially a dead technology that delivers neither better performance nor acceptable utility.
You'd think that Formula 1 racing and WRC rally would bless the automated manual transmission with the right kind of image for performance-minded guys, but so far it isn't working. Maybe things will change once we see more production-derived cars with these transmissions on the race track, like the TIC Racing Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution pictured here. It's already competed in a couple of minor German races in preparation for the annual ADAC Nurburgring 24 hours, which is scheduled for May 23-24. It's going to be driven by former rally champion Uwe Nittel, Mitsubishi works driver Takako Matsui, and TIC Racing's Karsten Quadder.
So the question remains: Do real drivers use the shift lever and clutch, or are these simply the tools of ignorance -- one step removed from tractor technology -- that are bound to be ultimately replaced by magnesium shift paddles?
http://blogs.edmunds.com/roadtests/TS-SSTbyMitsubishiCars.jpg
What I think is true
There are a lot of people who are simply set in their old ways. There are those who think driving a manual makes them cool and somehow better than others. Then there are the highly skilled drivers who can actually consistantly manipulate the clutch pedal to make the car do whatever they want.
I have driven the Ferrari F1 box, I have driven some of the finest manual transmissions made, I have driven DSG, and traditional automatics. Only thing I don't know what is like to drive is a built automatic with high stall torque converter, which is why I am building one right now. I see merits in all of these and there is no replacing any of them.
Traditional automatic is far smoother than any others, even aging technology. Traditional automatics can be built to hold far more power than anything else here.
Manual offers the most control.
F1 and DSG are faster around a track. F1 has the advantage of being lighter and stronger of the two, but driveability is horrid in automatic mode. its so bad i only drive in manual, but as a manual you still have to get used to shifting with paddles. DSG can be strong but it will have to be larger and heavier. (like in the Bugatti Veyron and Nissan GTR) DSG is very smooth in auto, but still not as smooth as a traditional automatic and there IS lag from when you floor it to where it gets moving, so its not an ideal manual replacement in that regard. Personally, I just leave the DSG in sport and drive. Neither paddles nor shifter get much love on the track, so even open-minded me cannot get used to it.
Porsche replacing Tiptronic with PDK is perhaps OK since they have a sporting image, but it is bound to garner some criticism for not being as smooth.
The F1 belongs on Ferrari, but even they know its not ideal for anything less racey. They also have a dual clutch used on the California and the ZF traditional automatic used on Maserati's. And they offer manual, as well.
Basically it comes down to you and what you prefer and what your goals are. There is still no perfect option that does everything best. If you want the fastest most consistent lap times, then yes a manual is obsolete. Drag racing and the traditional auto is still king. Proper drifting still requires a clutch.
By huyracing
By huyracing
2008 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X MR: Are Shift Paddles for Wimps?
http://blogs.edmunds.com/roadtests/TGIRacingbyGetrag.jpg
It's hard to know whether a dual-clutch automated manual transmission is a high-performance gearbox or just a more fuel-efficient automatic. And even after the introduction in the last year of dual-clutch transmissions from BMW, Mitsubishi and Porsche, there's still no resolution of the question.
When BMW introduced its SMG (Sequential Manual Gearbox), single-clutch automated transmission for the M3 and M5, I found myself one of the few who thought of it as an aid to quicker lap times. Everyone else whined endlessly about shift shock, which tells you that their frame of reference was the automatic transmission.
The Getrag-built, PowerShift 6DCT470 transmission in the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution (which Mitsubishi calls Twin-Clutch Sportronic Shift Transmission, or TC-SST), is a dual-clutch design that combines the best of automatic and manual operation. In automatic mode, you just drive around and the gearbox upshifts and downshifts by itself. When you really leg the Evo in automatic mode, the transmission kicks down pretty rapidly. And this dual-clutch transmission creeps forward effectively at low speed, something that single-clutch automated manuals struggle with. (Although the latest Grazino single-clutch automated manual with Magneti Marelli software as used by the Aston Martin Vantage has been programmed with a very smart creep mode that even compensates for speed bumps in parking lots.)
Around town, you engage TC-SST's Normal mode, which shifts at relatively low rpm for good fuel economy and optimal comfort. Once you engage Sport mode, the shift points climb higher in the rpm range and the shifting action is quicker. And then the S-Sport mode executes the quickest shifts possible, so there's a detectable amount of shift shock. You can shift manually or let the electronics shift for you in any of the modes, and you can change from automatic to manual mode simply by tugging at one of the shift paddles on the steering wheel.
It's a pretty great transmission by any measure. BMW clearly thinks so as well, because this Getrag design is featured in the new M3, only in a configuration rated for the rear-wheel-drive M3's 400-hp 4.0-liter V8. And dual-clutch designs are getting even better, as those of us who have driven the new Porsche 911 Carrera with its ZF-designed PDK transmission report.
Yet there's still no resolution of the central question about the automated manual transmission. It is a performance transmission or just a unique automatic? BMW seems to regard it as performance device, while Porsche admits that its PDK option is simply a replacement for its former Tiptronic automatic. Meanwhile Mitsubishi makes available a conventional five-speed manual transmission for the Evolution, because the manual has more a substantial gearset that can withstand the anticipated torque loads in racing or when the engine is modified for more power.
In fact, our decision to not specify the dual-clutch option in our 2009 BMW M3 long-term test car had much to do with our preference for using a clutch and a shift lever, even though it's essentially a dead technology that delivers neither better performance nor acceptable utility.
You'd think that Formula 1 racing and WRC rally would bless the automated manual transmission with the right kind of image for performance-minded guys, but so far it isn't working. Maybe things will change once we see more production-derived cars with these transmissions on the race track, like the TIC Racing Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution pictured here. It's already competed in a couple of minor German races in preparation for the annual ADAC Nurburgring 24 hours, which is scheduled for May 23-24. It's going to be driven by former rally champion Uwe Nittel, Mitsubishi works driver Takako Matsui, and TIC Racing's Karsten Quadder.
So the question remains: Do real drivers use the shift lever and clutch, or are these simply the tools of ignorance -- one step removed from tractor technology -- that are bound to be ultimately replaced by magnesium shift paddles?
http://blogs.edmunds.com/roadtests/TS-SSTbyMitsubishiCars.jpg
What I think is true
There are a lot of people who are simply set in their old ways. There are those who think driving a manual makes them cool and somehow better than others. Then there are the highly skilled drivers who can actually consistantly manipulate the clutch pedal to make the car do whatever they want.
I have driven the Ferrari F1 box, I have driven some of the finest manual transmissions made, I have driven DSG, and traditional automatics. Only thing I don't know what is like to drive is a built automatic with high stall torque converter, which is why I am building one right now. I see merits in all of these and there is no replacing any of them.
Traditional automatic is far smoother than any others, even aging technology. Traditional automatics can be built to hold far more power than anything else here.
Manual offers the most control.
F1 and DSG are faster around a track. F1 has the advantage of being lighter and stronger of the two, but driveability is horrid in automatic mode. its so bad i only drive in manual, but as a manual you still have to get used to shifting with paddles. DSG can be strong but it will have to be larger and heavier. (like in the Bugatti Veyron and Nissan GTR) DSG is very smooth in auto, but still not as smooth as a traditional automatic and there IS lag from when you floor it to where it gets moving, so its not an ideal manual replacement in that regard. Personally, I just leave the DSG in sport and drive. Neither paddles nor shifter get much love on the track, so even open-minded me cannot get used to it.
Porsche replacing Tiptronic with PDK is perhaps OK since they have a sporting image, but it is bound to garner some criticism for not being as smooth.
The F1 belongs on Ferrari, but even they know its not ideal for anything less racey. They also have a dual clutch used on the California and the ZF traditional automatic used on Maserati's. And they offer manual, as well.
Basically it comes down to you and what you prefer and what your goals are. There is still no perfect option that does everything best. If you want the fastest most consistent lap times, then yes a manual is obsolete. Drag racing and the traditional auto is still king. Proper drifting still requires a clutch.
By huyracing
By huyracing