[+Kardboard+]

No thread yet or am I blind? I still remember this, watching it on TV in Hong Kong and not really understanding, then later on the VHS recordings my folks made of the news. Call it surreal, call it naive, call it irresponsible, whatever, those students made an impact on history that will not soon be forgotten.

http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/04/behind-the-scenes-a-new-angle-on-history/

Never before published. Terril Jones's view of Changan Avenue on Jun. 5, 1989, shows "tank man," in the distance at left, framed by two tree trunks, on the verge of his confrontation with the tanks in the distance at right.http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/7328/20090604091935.jpg (http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=20090604091935.jpg)

[Meowjin]

CHINA IS THE BEST COUNTRY ON EARTH. WE ARE BETTER THAN EVERYTHING THAT EVER HAPPENS HERE.

LONG LIVE THE COMMUNIST GOVERNMENT

LONG LIVE CORRUPTION AS LONG AS IT BENEFITS ME

[/ddgauge]

[Presto]

Wow.... has it been 20 years already? That is a great photo in the OP.

[hung_low]

http://ramblingsofpassion.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/051201_tiananmen-square_ex.jpg

[dutch]

the Chinese stayin classy:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8082604.stm

[static]

i was there, went at 4 in the afternoon. There was an insane amount of police presence. "Undercover" police with badges were out in even greater number. You could NOT look around 20 meters at any point within the square and not see a government drone.

They carried umbrellas, at first we thought they were for the overcast conditions which could turn to slight rain. Then my friend say a woman kneel and possibly prey, she was surrounded by security who then opened their umbrella's to shield her from view.

She was taken away by an awaiting police van. China has come a long way in 20 years, but not in this regard. Also met a German girl that was apparently speaking to reporters around the square as journalists/reporters were denied access to the square. Security she said smacked her around and told her to mind her own countries business.

[124Y]

I've done a research paper on media censorship in China and this really pissed me off. The Chinese government is "brainwashing" their citizens ever since they're young by only teaching them a part of the history, making them think their government is superior and great. They don't teach you the Six-Four incident in school. It's sad that people from all around the world knows about this incident and you may not even know in your own country.

[Yc]

u dont think the developed countries do the same thing?

in highschool we learn communism is bad, we read books about how bad they are, "1984?? or is it 86??" and whenever media mention about china, it says the communist China...so its like indirectly saying the China is bad..

with that much population, it's even harder to control if the gov't does not censor the media.. China has been going astonishingly for the past decade, ethically, it might not be a good thing, but overall it's doing alright. Its GNI increase 113% since 2000.

[Meowjin]

^^:rolleyes:

Every person should have right to freedom of information and general freedom in general.

[124Y]

u dont think the developed countries do the same thing?

in highschool we learn communism is bad, we read books about how bad they are, "1984?? or is it 86??" and whenever media mention about china, it says the communist China...so its like indirectly saying the China is bad..

with that much population, it's even harder to control if the gov't does not censor the media.. China has been going astonishingly for the past decade, ethically, it might not be a good thing, but overall it's doing alright. Its GNI increase 113% since 2000.

It is an inevitable fact that there are more media censorship in China than here, in Canada. Yes, economical and social stability is what they want. However, doing so only benefits the state and not the citizens. I guess there are no better ways to contain such a large population without sacrificing some freedom...

[crummy]

China has been going astonishingly for the past decade, ethically, it might not be a good thing, but overall it's doing alright. Its GNI increase 113% since 2000.

This is exactly what is wrong with China, money above all else. Screw human rights, screw the environment. They put on a front like everything is ok just so other countries will trade with them.

[liu13]

is wikipedia still banned there?

[Gt-R R34]

This is exactly what is wrong with China, money above all else. Screw human rights, screw the environment. They put on a front like everything is ok just so other countries will trade with them.

hate to say it - Industrial Revolution was the same type of deal.

With the information we have now, plus the MASSIVE population, china'sjust going to burn itself out.

[124Y]

This is exactly what is wrong with China, money above all else. Screw human rights, screw the environment. They put on a front like everything is ok just so other countries will trade with them.

Don't forget military too ;)

[q0192837465]

RIP to the students. But I think sometimes you cannot have everything. There needs to be a balance between freedom & control. You cannot truly have freedom if u dunno where the boundaries are. Every governement is struggling to find that balance. No one knows what is the ideal trade-off between freedom & control. But at least the Chinese ppl r getting more freedom than 20 years ago. Nothing can or should happen overnight. Radical changes are detrimental to any society. U can't just go from very limited rights to complete freedom, it'll cause the entire society to breakdown. Just give it some time

[nightkid]

I was too young to understand anything. After some studying about it, I am starting to feel upset for those who died. RIP

[Yc]

^^:rolleyes:

Every person should have right to freedom of information and general freedom in general.

sometimes having these freedom will lead to circumstances that put harm into sth that delay the growth of a country.

people are easily influenced by what others are saying..so it might not be the best thing..

i believe what China have done might not be the best solution, but given what we have at the time.. it's probably the best thing to do..

Everything country should have its own gov't policies, and what we have definitely would not work in China, as you have seen some other developing countries have tried that (RUSSIA)..

[dna82]

oh, i wonder how long before revscene gets behind the Great Firewall of China.

[dna82]

u dont think the developed countries do the same thing?

in highschool we learn communism is bad, we read books about how bad they are, "1984?? or is it 86??" and whenever media mention about china, it says the communist China...so its like indirectly saying the China is bad..

with that much population, it's even harder to control if the gov't does not censor the media.. China has been going astonishingly for the past decade, ethically, it might not be a good thing, but overall it's doing alright. Its GNI increase 113% since 2000.

holy fuck i'm going to drop the F-bomb. of course we're taught communism is bad, because IT IS A FUCKIN SHIT FORM OF GOVERNMENT. holy fuckin shit i can't believe you can be this stupid and still type in english, what the fuck are you thinking? economic freedom =/= political freedom, yeah keep buying those LV bags and BMW's i'm sure you can buy your way into happiness you dumb fuck. geeze fuckin christ, you sir, are a fuckin genius. don't you fuckin dare try and give some bullshit reason to defend censorship.

China is better off NOW then before, but that's comparing shit to piss.

and, FUCK YOU.

[impactX]

RIP to the students. But I think sometimes you cannot have everything. There needs to be a balance between freedom & control. You cannot truly have freedom if u dunno where the boundaries are. Every governement is struggling to find that balance. No one knows what is the ideal trade-off between freedom & control. But at least the Chinese ppl r getting more freedom than 20 years ago. Nothing can or should happen overnight. Radical changes are detrimental to any society. U can't just go from very limited rights to complete freedom, it'll cause the entire society to breakdown. Just give it some time

Er, it's not about freedom and control. What the fuck is "just give it some time?"

The June 4th movement started out as mourning for the death of Hu Yaobang, the previous leader for China who openly criticize government corruption and he was also forced to resign. After the social reform by Deng Xiaoping, people thought that the political environment (with only the communist party) was lagging behind.

The next leader Zhao Ziyang was anti-government corruption. He was very sympathetic with the students before, during and after the June 4th movement and he was also against the use of military against the students. However, Deng Xiaoping was the chairman of China's Central Military Commission at the time and Zhao Ziyang was only the vice chair. Deng, as the elder of the communist party, illegally forced the decision to "clean up" Tiananmen Square.

After June 4th, Zhao Ziyang showed up at Tiananmen Square to apologize to the students. Needless to say, he was fired by the Communist Party and was stripped of his power. Zhao was asked by his peers to admit that he was wrong in sympathizing with the students in order to retain some of his positions in the communisty party. He turned it down. He was criminalized and was placed under house arrest.

China had good leaders like Hu and Zhao; but they were all forced out of power. So don't give me the "oh just give it some time!"

Anyone who says "June 4th? That's 20 years ago and look at how prosperous China is now" or made the massacre the cause of the economic power China has today, is obviously a fucking retard.

FYI, Zhao was also responsible for the economic reform (to fix the fuckups by Deng) in the 80s.

[Yc]

holy fuck i'm going to drop the F-bomb. of course we're taught communism is bad, because IT IS A FUCKIN SHIT FORM OF GOVERNMENT. holy fuckin shit i can't believe you can be this stupid and still type in english, what the fuck are you thinking? economic freedom =/= political freedom, yeah keep buying those LV bags and BMW's i'm sure you can buy your way into happiness you dumb fuck. geeze fuckin christ, you sir, are a fuckin genius. don't you fuckin dare try and give some bullshit reason to defend censorship.

China is better off NOW then before, but that's comparing shit to piss.

and, FUCK YOU.


so communism is bad, how so? ..the theory behind it isn't bad, its just when it comes to reality, it turns bad..thats all..

if you had to choose btw economic freedom and political freedom, which one do u want??

censorship is needed, i am sure every country does it..but not to that greater extend

and individual vs whole, it's two different things, individual might suffer, but as a whole it's a win

[dna82]

so communism is bad, how so? ..the theory behind it isn't bad, its just when it comes to reality, it turns bad..thats all..

if you had to choose btw economic freedom and political freedom, which one do u want??

censorship is needed, i am sure every country does it..but not to that greater extend

and individual vs whole, it's two different things, individual might suffer, but as a whole it's a win

communism works REAL well, i mean look at all the thriving, great societies that communism creates.

fuck, god damn, read a book.

a state without individuals is NOTHING, an individual without a state is STILL A PERSON. fuck your zerg mentality.

[impactX]

so communism is bad, how so? ..the theory behind it isn't bad, its just when it comes to reality, it turns bad..thats all..

if you had to choose btw economic freedom and political freedom, which one do u want??

censorship is needed, i am sure every country does it..but not to that greater extend

and individual vs whole, it's two different things, individual might suffer, but as a whole it's a win

Welcome to Canada, where you can choose to have both kinds of freedom, where the government has a responsibility for its people, and where you can have (a) freedom of conscience and religion; (b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication; (c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and (d) freedom of association, guaranteed by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms without the RCMP or CSIS knocking on your door as you replied to this thread.

[SkinnyPupp]

Yc has set a new new low for Revscene.

[Yc]

Welcome to Canada, where you can choose to have both kinds of freedom, where the government has a responsibility for its people, and where you can have (a) freedom of conscience and religion; (b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication; (c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and (d) freedom of association, guaranteed by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms without the RCMP or CSIS knocking on your door as you replied to this thread.

yes what u said is right..
and a few threads down, i see ppl complaining how justice system in canada is fucked up
how slow it is..etc..

both system have its bad and good..
there is no real absolute answer, rather the relative of it....
i am not saying which system is good or bad..
i am saying there isn't a absolute system..u guys think how the system in canada can be applied to everywhere in the world just b/c it works so well in canada

[+Kardboard+]

You make it seem like that our magical Canadian ground and magical Canadian air somehow magically makes magical democracy work.

OK.

Granted, you are right, neither end of the political spectrum would be very good, hence them being called 'extreme.' Our system works pretty darn well, but then, rampant stupidity is a signature of being human. Humans are stupid, but some just more stupid than others. We live in a society where we can learn about so much and then choose, without violent persecution, what to believe.

In China, one doesn't have that privilege. Great Firewall of China, the oppression of free discussion and flow of ideologies, dreams, what have you.

Choice? Sure, they still have choice. It's binary: accept the status quo or reap the consequences of opposing it.

[Ludepower]

I love these sellout chinaman who defend their communist country. Newflash...you're only in Canada cause your parents are rich....while you turn a blind eye on the corruption and oppressed enviroment your 'people" are suffering in.

[Yc]

You make it seem like that our magical Canadian ground and magical Canadian air somehow magically makes magical democracy work.

OK.

Granted, you are right, neither end of the political spectrum would be very good, hence them being called 'extreme.' Our system works pretty darn well, but then, rampant stupidity is a signature of being human. Humans are stupid, but some just more stupid than others. We live in a society where we can learn about so much and then choose, without violent persecution, what to believe.

In China, one doesn't have that privilege. Great Firewall of China, the oppression of free discussion and flow of ideologies, dreams, what have you.

Choice? Sure, they still have choice. It's binary: accept the status quo or reap the consequences of opposing it.


well China is still developing, so i think for them to get to where Canada is, is going to take another 20 or 30 years..
everyone makes mistakes, including governments...in this case it might went a little overboard, but look what China is now, not one country can ignore China's growth, so..in a way I think they did a good thing but in a bad way..
if the movement was sucessful, and the gov't changed its course..no one will know what China will be, the closest thing we can assume is comparing what other Countries that have done sth similar..say Russia, so in a way..I think the way the government is running is quite alright...

yes there are corruptions, and others, but what other developing country doesnt?...China can still develope quite successfully even with THAT much corruption..I would say the gov't did its job fairly good

[Yc]

I love these sellout chinaman who defend their communist country. Newflash...you're only in Canada cause your parents are rich....while you turn a blind eye on the corruption and oppressed enviroment your 'people" are suffering in.

I am sorry, I don't really get ur point..

I have never turn a blind eye on the corruption..

and you are saying i am selling out China, b/c I came here?..

[dna82]

well China is still developing, so i think for them to get to where Canada is, is going to take another 20 or 30 years..
everyone makes mistakes, including governments...in this case it might went a little overboard, but look what China is now, not one country can ignore China's growth, so..in a way I think they did a good thing but in a bad way..
if the movement was sucessful, and the gov't changed its course..no one will know what China will be, the closest thing we can assume is comparing what other Countries that have done sth similar..say Russia, so in a way..I think the way the government is running is quite alright...

yes there are corruptions, and others, but what other developing country doesnt?...China can still develope quite successfully even with THAT much corruption..I would say the gov't did its job fairly good

oh god, more like russia? christ this just gets worse and worse.

[twitchyzero]

u dont think the developed countries do the same thing?

in highschool we learn communism is bad, we read books about how bad they are, "1984?? or is it 86??" and

read Animal Farm..it's even better

ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL, BUT SOME ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS:)

[Yc]

oh god, more like russia? christ this just gets worse and worse.

I am sorry, not to offend you or anything

just wondering whats ur education level?

so i can decide whether to use normative or positive statments

[dna82]

I am sorry, not to offend you or anything

just wondering whats ur education level?

so i can decide whether to use normative or positive statments

kinnergartan

[carisear]

i agree wholeheartedly with Yc. i understand exactly what he is saying.

you think canadians aren't being censored? actually that was rhetorical because i KNOW you don't think we are.

communism as an ideal in it's purest form should work well. it's not my ideal form of gov't, but from what i remember of grade 10 social studies in highschool (which was many many many moons ago) it definitely wasn't 'a shit form'

yc, i would just ignore dna82 since you'll just hurt your brain trying to have a discussion with him.

[twitchyzero]

Yc, please justify how censorship is beneficial with a large population.

I've seen many Pro-china advocates tell me Westerners think China's a shit hole because "well if we have 1.3 billion people, wouldn't there be more 'shit' news coming from China?"

Well if China has 1.3b people, wouldn't their good news be amplified as well?

[dna82]

i agree wholeheartedly with Yc. i understand exactly what he is saying.

you think canadians aren't being censored? actually that was rhetorical because i KNOW you don't think we are.

communism as an ideal in it's purest form should work well. it's not my ideal form of gov't, but from what i remember of grade 10 social studies in highschool (which was many many many moons ago) it definitely wasn't 'a shit form'

yc, i would just ignore dna82 since you'll just hurt your brain trying to have a discussion with him.

oh dear dear dear, communism as an ideal in its purest form should work well. lol. yes, an idea transferred into reality would be perfect because, well, it would be in essense, just an idea. understand? the problem does not herein lie with the idea, but with the idealist who has not factored in the harsh realities.

communism does not work, never has, never will, all attempts are met with failure and all tainted by its presence become, what is known as, shit countries. Russia, China, Vietnam, Cuba and the rest of the backwater nations.

now that we got that out of the way.

your an idiot just like yc. lol communism as an ideal in it's purest form should work well, I got a good chuckle out of that one.

[124Y]

i agree wholeheartedly with Yc. i understand exactly what he is saying.

you think canadians aren't being censored? actually that was rhetorical because i KNOW you don't think we are.

communism as an ideal in it's purest form should work well. it's not my ideal form of gov't, but from what i remember of grade 10 social studies in highschool (which was many many many moons ago) it definitely wasn't 'a shit form'

yc, i would just ignore dna82 since you'll just hurt your brain trying to have a discussion with him.

Communism as an ideal in it's purest form may work, but only for emotionless robots. We all have individuality and want to have the freedom of choice as we are human. China's communism ways turned their government wealthy and powerful yet neglecting the living standards in every citizen's lives. The disparity between the rich and the poor is getting greater and greater.

[124Y]

well China is still developing, so i think for them to get to where Canada is, is going to take another 20 or 30 years..
everyone makes mistakes, including governments...in this case it might went a little overboard, but look what China is now, not one country can ignore China's growth, so..in a way I think they did a good thing but in a bad way..
if the movement was sucessful, and the gov't changed its course..no one will know what China will be, the closest thing we can assume is comparing what other Countries that have done sth similar..say Russia, so in a way..I think the way the government is running is quite alright...

yes there are corruptions, and others, but what other developing country doesnt?...China can still develope quite successfully even with THAT much corruption..I would say the gov't did its job fairly good

Why are you wondering about other people's education level when you cannot use proper grammar?

[Culture_Vulture]

^humanitarianism aside, these same 'shit countries' can probably wipe Canada right off the map.

Besides, nobody ever gave 'ideal' a clear definition.

[dna82]

^humanitarianism aside, these same 'shit countries' can probably wipe Canada right off the map.

Besides, nobody ever gave 'ideal' a clear definition.

NATO

gg.

p.s you just butchered the definition of 'ideal'

[+Kardboard+]

well China is still developing, so i think for them to get to where Canada is, is going to take another 20 or 30 years..
everyone makes mistakes, including governments...in this case it might went a little overboard, but look what China is now, not one country can ignore China's growth, so..in a way I think they did a good thing but in a bad way..
if the movement was sucessful, and the gov't changed its course..no one will know what China will be, the closest thing we can assume is comparing what other Countries that have done sth similar..say Russia, so in a way..I think the way the government is running is quite alright...

yes there are corruptions, and others, but what other developing country doesnt?...China can still develope quite successfully even with THAT much corruption..I would say the gov't did its job fairly good
Totally agree. Are they Communist there in the purest sense of the word? No, not at all. They're a different animal altogether, and while I don't agree with how they handle a lot of things, I realize more and more that a) I don't know that much and b) China is still moving forward.
i agree wholeheartedly with Yc. i understand exactly what he is saying.

you think canadians aren't being censored? actually that was rhetorical because i KNOW you don't think we are.

communism as an ideal in it's purest form should work well. it's not my ideal form of gov't, but from what i remember of grade 10 social studies in highschool (which was many many many moons ago) it definitely wasn't 'a shit form'

yc, i would just ignore dna82 since you'll just hurt your brain trying to have a discussion with him.
dna82 is just rageful. :p Communism as an ideal is awesome. Will it ever work? No. What 124Y says below:
Communism as an ideal in it's purest form may work, but only for emotionless robots. We all have individuality and want to have the freedom of choice as we are human. China's communism ways turned their government wealthy and powerful yet neglecting the living standards in every citizen's lives. The disparity between the rich and the poor is getting greater and greater.
It's true, but there is a burgeoning middle class (I know that much :p) and people there are educated. Educated enough to know better, to know what's going on. Some take extreme measures, some not so much. Hmm...for better or worse, China's the future. You don't ignore 1.3B Chinese...who make everything. :p

6/4 was a tragedy, no denying that. Could it have been handled differently? I'd like to think so. Could it have been worse? Most definitely. I'm gonna stop pretending I know what to say, but in the end, just remember what happened that day, know what happened that day and form your own opinion from that.

[124Y]

^humanitarianism aside, these same 'shit countries' can probably wipe Canada right off the map.

Besides, nobody ever gave 'ideal' a clear definition.

Yeah...because they put military development before caring for their citizens... :rolleyes:

[Lomac]

Communism as an ideal in it's purest form may work, but only for emotionless robots. We all have individuality and want to have the freedom of choice as we are human. China's communism ways turned their government wealthy and powerful yet neglecting the living standards in every citizen's lives. The disparity between the rich and the poor is getting greater and greater.

Canada has a form of Social Democracy which in itself is a branch of Marxist Communism. Many other countries have this form of government as well, such as the UK, Germany, and India. Marxist Communism, which is the Grand Daddy of Communism, doesn't prevent or stunt individualism or personal freedoms. In fact, it embraces them. The theory is that by following the ideals of Communism, the ability for someone to stunt another person through class conflicts and the exploitation of others is diminished, thus allowing an individual to follow their own goals and dreams. It wasn't until others like Mao, Tito and Stalin warped it into their own ideals of what Communism should be that it became much worse.

There's nothing wrong with the original ideals behind Communism; it's simply that human nature, be it $$$$$, jealousy, or just plain hate, can never Communism work.

[Lomac]

i agree wholeheartedly with Yc. i understand exactly what he is saying.

you think canadians aren't being censored? actually that was rhetorical because i KNOW you don't think we are.

communism as an ideal in it's purest form should work well. it's not my ideal form of gov't, but from what i remember of grade 10 social studies in highschool (which was many many many moons ago) it definitely wasn't 'a shit form'

yc, i would just ignore dna82 since you'll just hurt your brain trying to have a discussion with him.

Of course Canadians are being censored when it comes to the media. However, it's just not as blatant or obvious.

Yc, please justify how censorship is beneficial with a large population.

I've seen many Pro-china advocates tell me Westerners think China's a shit hole because "well if we have 1.3 billion people, wouldn't there be more 'shit' news coming from China?"

Well if China has 1.3b people, wouldn't their good news be amplified as well?

I'm anti-censorship, but there are simply some things that need to be controlled, unless you want mass panic on your hands. I've seen first hand how our media censors various news stories, or at least twists them into something that sounds better than it truly is.

[124Y]

6/4 was a tragedy, no denying that. Could it have been handled differently? I'd like to think so. Could it have been worse? Most definitely. I'm gonna stop pretending I know what to say, but in the end, just remember what happened that day, know what happened that day and form your own opinion from that.

The sad truth is that even to this day, the majority of the 1.3B people does not know what happened back then. Since the news station is state-owned, they hide or alter the truth from the people watching.

[+Kardboard+]

Yeah...because they put military development before caring for their citizens... :rolleyes:
You try feeding a billion hungry mouths. :(

Someone reminded me about a point in China's past. Remember how it was the king of the hill, pwning everyone else in its technology and culture? Then...somehow collapsed into bickering within itself and then was consequently oppressed by the West? Something like that, to Coles-Notes it. They're a unique culture, forged by circumstance so I don't expect any one of us (other than a select few closely tied to China) to really understand, properly comprehend just what the heehaw they're thinking.

A lot of things we take for granted here are easier said than done over there... :(

EDIT:

The sad truth is that even to this day, the majority of the 1.3B people does not know what happened back then. Since the news station is state-owned, they hide or alter the truth from the people watching.

I know people who know people there and who themselves are close to what I kinda affectionately call the "Uncleland" now (get it? Uncle...land? Like Motherland, but Chinese? OK I stop. -_-). People know. Word of mouth, passed down by those who were there, others who know. Hmm, they may not think the same way that many of us do, but they know.

[Carl Johnson]

pretty good video on youtube showing how events unfolded which lead to June 4th

s9A51jN19zw

[impactX]

well China is still developing, so i think for them to get to where Canada is, is going to take another 20 or 30 years..
everyone makes mistakes, including governments...in this case it might went a little overboard, but look what China is now, not one country can ignore China's growth, so..in a way I think they did a good thing but in a bad way..
if the movement was sucessful, and the gov't changed its course..no one will know what China will be, the closest thing we can assume is comparing what other Countries that have done sth similar..say Russia, so in a way..I think the way the government is running is quite alright...

yes there are corruptions, and others, but what other developing country doesnt?...China can still develope quite successfully even with THAT much corruption..I would say the gov't did its job fairly good

Here you go, ignoring my post about Zhao Ziyang, who was in charge of the economy reform and paved the road to China's properous economy today after Deng Xiaoping fucked it up. He's also openly supportive of reforming the political environment and trying to rid of government corruption in China. The corruption was part of why the June 4th movement had taken place.

Your speculation of how China wouldn't be as prosperous today if democracy was allowed is illogical. It's almost as retarded as saying that the massacre was what led to the prosperous China we see today.

Sure, governments make mistake; but they admit it. China wanted Japan to recognize the Nanjing massacre during WW2; yet they won't even admit that June 4th movement took place in which they killed their own people.

[Yc]

well..i said uncertain, meaning we are not sure of..it might be good or bad..so in this case we need to compare countries that are similar to China and has used democracy..


u have to realize that it's not just a day thing, it takes years and years of change

i am not sure if they have admited or not..but giving what technology has to offer, as long as they dont openly deny what they have done, i consider it as a "okay we fucked up and sorry...."..
Its China we are talking about..since when does the King ever apologize to his actions..it's part of cultural. thing...

i dont know if its morally right to say this..sometimes its okay to kill ur own ppl(family)..but not alright to let others(in this case, someone outside of the family) to kill..

[Yc]

Why are you wondering about other people's education level when you cannot use proper grammar?

i admit my grammar isn't great.i am not an english major nor am I a native speaker..but if i can get my points across and you guys understand it..i am happy


just curious where he gets his points from..

[impactX]

well..i said uncertain, meaning we are not sure of..it might be good or bad..so in this case we need to compare countries that are similar to China and has used democracy..


u have to realize that it's not just a day thing, it takes years and years of change

i am not sure if they have admited or not..but giving what technology has to offer, as long as they dont openly deny what they have done, i consider it as a "okay we fucked up and sorry...."..
Its China we are talking about..since when does the King ever apologize to his actions..it's part of cultural. thing...

i dont know if its morally right to say this..sometimes its okay to kill ur own ppl(family)..but not alright to let others(in this case, someone outside of the family) to kill..

See Germany. For everything, there's always a start.

LMAO, I won't respond to you anymore... and I'd hate to be a part of your family. You need medical help.

[bcrdukes]

Did any of you ever think that at work, why you're not allowed to visit the NWS forum? Or post comments about how you hate George in accounting? Or how big of a slut Jane is on the 14th floor? Or that you couldn't surf the Web on work time? Did you ever think for a second that maybe, just maybe, that in itself is censorship?

[Hehe]

Seriously, China is one fucked up place. Sure every country has some form of censorship in place to prevent their citizen be discomforted by the information.

Nevertheless, the difference between China to Canada or US (just an example) is China is doing it to prevent any gathering of power. Be it political or social, there should never be a force strong enough to shake the communist party. And for god sake, is that really what's good for the people? millions of people in China still lives in horrible conditions, Chinese government suppress their monetary policy and trading rules to prevent a surge in manufacturing cost in China. They buy tons of USD bonds to control the currency rate.

All these actions are only benefiting very small percentage of individuals in China. Yes, for those fortunate Chinese who benefited from this, they live in Canada, drives a nice car and have a house at west van, but all these come from the suffering of millions more Chinese in China. Communism is like all economic theories (trust me, I did my BA in Econ, I know what I'm talking) they are formed in perfect world. Where there are no variables. In the real life, however, doesn't exactly work as they intend to be... at least not 100% efficient.

[scheng924]

Did any of you ever think that at work, why you're not allowed to visit the NWS forum? Or post comments about how you hate George in accounting? Or how big of a slut Jane is on the 14th floor? Or that you couldn't surf the Web on work time? Did you ever think for a second that maybe, just maybe, that in itself is censorship?

lol love your take!

[scheng924]

Seriously, China is one fucked up place. Sure every country has some form of censorship in place to prevent their citizen be discomforted by the information.

Nevertheless, the difference between China to Canada or US (just an example) is China is doing it to prevent any gathering of power. Be it political or social, there should never be a force strong enough to shake the communist party. And for god sake, is that really what's good for the people? millions of people in China still lives in horrible conditions, Chinese government suppress their monetary policy and trading rules to prevent a surge in manufacturing cost in China. They buy tons of USD bonds to control the currency rate.

All these actions are only benefiting very small percentage of individuals in China. Yes, for those fortunate Chinese who benefited from this, they live in Canada, drives a nice car and have a house at west van, but all these come from the suffering of millions more Chinese in China. Communism is like all economic theories (trust me, I did my BA in Econ, I know what I'm talking) they are formed in perfect world. Where there are no variables. In the real life, however, doesn't exactly work as they intend to be... at least not 100% efficient.

good, so now we have defined why communism in REALITY doesn't work but works in theory...

[Nightwalker]

I can't even believe people are trying to compare censorship in Canada to China. When's the last time someone disappeared or caught a beatdown for criticizing the government here?

In a democratic society the governments role is to serve the people. It is not the role of the people to serve the government.

[Hehe]

good, so now we have defined why communism in REALITY doesn't work but works in theory...

It's not why it doesn't work, it's why it shouldn't be considered it could work.

Pure communism is based on that everyone do what they have to do or what they are good doing and contribute to the pool of total. Then the pool gets divided into equal portions and each person gets his/her share of it.

Ideally, this is the perfect world, you contribute to everyone and everyone contribute to you. Nevertheless, the very important thing is that variables exist in real world. Be it $$$$$ (lol, didn't know gree d censors into $$$$$), jealousy, love, hate... etc, these are variables beyond control. And when such emotional variables interfere with people with power, the perfect world ceases to exist. Hence the idea of communism no longer works.

For those who spent their childhood in China (elementary and/or highschool) I'm sure the lesson mentioned above (you contribute to the good of the mass) is part of your lectures. In reality, that theory is BS. What you have is responsibilities. Taking responsibilities is what should have been taught and not some all for one, one for all BS.

[goo3]

well..i said uncertain, meaning we are not sure of..it might be good or bad..so in this case we need to compare countries that are similar to China and has used democracy..


u have to realize that it's not just a day thing, it takes years and years of change

i am not sure if they have admited or not..but giving what technology has to offer, as long as they dont openly deny what they have done, i consider it as a "okay we fucked up and sorry...."..


Isn't all that exactly what the gov't wants you to think? Like word for word? Those points conveniently benefit them, strangely.

They got a monopoly on power. They control the tanks AND the information stream. Of course things not in their direct interest will take years and years. What is exactly there to keep them honest? All they have to do is set expectations lower than where it could be (as long as it's above zero), "overdeliver," and they give off the impression that they're doing a great job. Everybody's happy - none the wiser. It's not like somebody can go double check what they tell you.

This has nothing to do with political systems, big populations, or cultural values. Those are excuses. It's about human nature when you are your own boss and you cntrl where the money and guns go. Holding on to that power trumps everything else. Throwing meat over the side to the population is just a means to an end.

[goo3]

Did any of you ever think that at work, why you're not allowed to visit the NWS forum? Or post comments about how you hate George in accounting? Or how big of a slut Jane is on the 14th floor? Or that you couldn't surf the Web on work time? Did you ever think for a second that maybe, just maybe, that in itself is censorship?

But when 5pm rolls around, things change. And your boss doesn't control the military or police, just the security dude @ the gate :D

[wouwou]

Yc, as much as I love China, I think you are confusing China, the country, and the Party.

My friend wrote "Sons of Liberty" on his signiture on a knockoff Facebook, and his profile was deleted 2 minutes after updating that.

P.S, Sons of Liberty is the title for the 2nd Metal Gear Solid game. The censorship is unbelieveable and so fucked up and people are outraged

[Mancini]

Deleted

[Carl Johnson]

Did any of you ever think that at work, why you're not allowed to visit the NWS forum? Or post comments about how you hate George in accounting? Or how big of a slut Jane is on the 14th floor? Or that you couldn't surf the Web on work time? Did you ever think for a second that maybe, just maybe, that in itself is censorship?

there are certain rules and guidelines we have to follow at work or as a society in general which make all of us more efficient & productive. that is not the same thing as government censorship which makes us ignorant and foolish.

[dark0821]

haha.. YAY.. china staying strong.. in a good way kinda.. haha

[impactX]

haha.. YAY.. china staying strong.. in a good way kinda.. haha

WTF?

[bcrdukes]

But when 5pm rolls around, things change. And your boss doesn't control the military or police, just the security dude @ the gate :D

How about we think of IT as the police and management as the military/govt. You obviously aren't going to oppose them, are you? If you did, you'd be out of a job. Don't bite the hand that feeds you but after 5pm, okay, sure, but when Monday morning rolls around at 8:30am, you're back in the same shit hole you were in last Friday.

In the end, Communism or Capitalism is just a systematic means to an end. Do you remember as a child protesting against your parents demand that you eat your veggies? Yeah? And if you opposed them, did they give you a beating? Do you still oppose or beat your parents? No, because I'm sure they'd want you out of the house right away.

[dna82]

How about we think of IT as the police and management as the military/govt. You obviously aren't going to oppose them, are you? If you did, you'd be out of a job. Don't bite the hand that feeds you but after 5pm, okay, sure, but when Monday morning rolls around at 8:30am, you're back in the same shit hole you were in last Friday.

In the end, Communism or Capitalism is just a systematic means to an end. Do you remember as a child protesting against your parents demand that you eat your veggies? Yeah? And if you opposed them, did they give you a beating? Do you still oppose or beat your parents? No, because I'm sure they'd want you out of the house right away.

then quit the job and find a better one, that's the freedom given to you. nobody can force you to work.

the same can't be said about governments...

[RFlush]

Seriously, China is one fucked up place. Sure every country has some form of censorship in place to prevent their citizen be discomforted by the information.

Nevertheless, the difference between China to Canada or US (just an example) is China is doing it to prevent any gathering of power. Be it political or social, there should never be a force strong enough to shake the communist party. And for god sake, is that really what's good for the people? millions of people in China still lives in horrible conditions, Chinese government suppress their monetary policy and trading rules to prevent a surge in manufacturing cost in China. They buy tons of USD bonds to control the currency rate.

All these actions are only benefiting very small percentage of individuals in China. Yes, for those fortunate Chinese who benefited from this, they live in Canada, drives a nice car and have a house at west van, but all these come from the suffering of millions more Chinese in China. Communism is like all economic theories (trust me, I did my BA in Econ, I know what I'm talking) they are formed in perfect world. Where there are no variables. In the real life, however, doesn't exactly work as they intend to be... at least not 100% efficient.

I am not picking a side, but where did you do your BA in Econ from? Have you not taken any economic development courses or any marxist theory courses? It sure sounds like it.

[bcrdukes]

then quit the job and find a better one, that's the freedom given to you. nobody can force you to work.

Uhh...okay? Right. Just up and leave. Good one. You have failed to comprehend my parallelism.

[hk20000]

Communism what? Try to do anything, anything at all, in China without a stash of RMB.

You foolish people don't understand how it is like in China at all. I just flew back from Beijing and I saw how extreme contrast between those who "do have" and those who "don't have". Seriously, You think capitalism works well? A fully capitalistic society is what you get in the capital city.

Other than the fact that there is no voting and no representation of the people in the government, there is nothing communism about how China runs things now.

Like seriously, go there and come back and talk. Geez.

There is no voting for the people in China and no representation of its people in the government but the government sends agencies and parties down to the cities and provinces to manage things. When there are 13 billion people (and don't give me that hungry mouths bullshit they are ballin' out of control) that you need to manage, you better make sure they all believe in ONE thing and one government management. It makes a lot of sense to them because in the old days, when the government was actually split by more than one party (there are different "kings" during the Ming Dynasty era where provinces and lands get full control of themselves, only reporting to the "King" when summoned), hidden agendas caused civil wars eventually lead to the demise of the dynasty.

In review to THAT, some wisdom from back when America and Canada were still occupied by Indians, they decided that this current system is most fit for the nature of the Chinese people. In details it makes a lot of freaking sense, the government does not intervene as long as you believe in "one party and two principles". What you do with your talent and money is none of their concern. You do own your properties, and you do own your own business. Sure there are national ran business that get extra benefit and "pass cards" when it comes to contracting but soon we'll see the same with Obama's auto industry so in essense every government is moving to the same direction.

as for 6-4 thing, name me one government that hasn't killed people, and I'll say how foolish you are. Denying that they have done it is not an internationally accepted thing, but using that to bring out how China is a shit country is a western propaganda and tunnel vision that CNN wants to sell you.

I was AT Tiananmen Square on 6-4, and most people were not too keen or interested in this thing, it's only the Western society that wants to defame China for this. For the locals, there are so many instances where the government had lethally suppressed movements before n after 1989 (at least that's what the victims have been claiming) this event has no particular significance to them. To them, life just goes on.

There is media censorship in China but this whole "believe in one party" thing will not hold up if media is opened up. Either way this censorship doesn't really work that well as travelling is free-for-all in China (if other countries don't ask for damned visas when entering THEIR country with a China passport, which is a shame) you cannot bar what people will see and hear when they are abroad.

[bengy]

Did any of you ever think that at work, why you're not allowed to visit the NWS forum? Or post comments about how you hate George in accounting? Or how big of a slut Jane is on the 14th floor? Or that you couldn't surf the Web on work time? Did you ever think for a second that maybe, just maybe, that in itself is censorship?

Wow, this is so bad it's not even funny.

You are allowed to do whatever the fuck you want at work. The only thing is, depending on what you do, there will be repercussions.

You are there getting paid to perform a certain job you applied for and have a written contract for. You also agreed to certain policies of how to behave and how to look at the office when you took the job.

When you are at work, you are working most likely for a private company. They don't regulate how you live your life. Also, I'm pretty sure you can criticize anyone in your office as long as you are civil about it and have valid points.

[+Kardboard+]

Wow, this is so bad it's not even funny.

You are allowed to do whatever the fuck you want at work. The only thing is, depending on what you do, there will be repercussions.

You are there getting paid to perform a certain job you applied for and have a written contract for. You also agreed to certain policies of how to behave and how to look at the office when you took the job.

When you are at work, you are working most likely for a private company. They don't regulate how you live your life. Also, I'm pretty sure you can criticize anyone in your office as long as you are civil about it and have valid points.
And you're not getting where he's coming from. Devil's advocate, parallelism, yeah?

The Chinese in China can do whatever the fuck they want. The only thing is, depending on what they do, there will be repercussions.

You read between the lines.

Mind you, China isn't some crazy state under martial law where nothing's allowed. It's not perfect there, nowhere in the world is perfect, but we can still hold our opinions, like you say, as long as it's civil and we have valid points.

[bengy]

Yeah, I guess living in China is a full time job. Everyone working for that one goal right? Poor sobs.

[Yc]

See Germany. For everything, there's always a start.

LMAO, I won't respond to you anymore... and I'd hate to be a part of your family. You need medical help.

it's okay...i dont want to be wrongfully accused by someone i have never met

[Yc]

Isn't all that exactly what the gov't wants you to think? Like word for word? Those points conveniently benefit them, strangely.

They got a monopoly on power. They control the tanks AND the information stream. Of course things not in their direct interest will take years and years. What is exactly there to keep them honest? All they have to do is set expectations lower than where it could be (as long as it's above zero), "overdeliver," and they give off the impression that they're doing a great job. Everybody's happy - none the wiser. It's not like somebody can go double check what they tell you.

This has nothing to do with political systems, big populations, or cultural values. Those are excuses. It's about human nature when you are your own boss and you cntrl where the money and guns go. Holding on to that power trumps everything else. Throwing meat over the side to the population is just a means to an end.


sorry i am not sure when u mean..
but sometimes individual powers or right might not help the growth of a country..everyone is selfish in a way.they want the best of themself not for the society..

the goal here are different..
in canada, where it is already developed..we sorta reach the top
in China, it's still developing, it will be faster if one person controls everything and everyone just follow along, of course it's easier say than done, but if by chance the leader is a good one..majority of ppl well be alright...China, there is a huge inequality gap..but if u look at the past..where developed countries like Canada, there were inequality as well....

[Yc]

Yc, as much as I love China, I think you are confusing China, the country, and the Party.

My friend wrote "Sons of Liberty" on his signiture on a knockoff Facebook, and his profile was deleted 2 minutes after updating that.

P.S, Sons of Liberty is the title for the 2nd Metal Gear Solid game. The censorship is unbelieveable and so fucked up and people are outraged

lol..u mean xiaonei?? haha i use it too


maybe i guess..i will just read more on that..

[Yc]

Yeah, I guess living in China is a full time job. Everyone working for that one goal right? Poor sobs.

have u been to China?

[dna82]

Uhh...okay? Right. Just up and leave. Good one. You have failed to comprehend my parallelism.

your parallelism is flawed.

work is a choice, you exchange your time for money. spending company time doing personal shit is theft. management of course, allows for some discretion.

just because your company says you can't access certain information while on company time is in no way similiar to censorship. read above.

p.s yes it's that simple, you can walk away from any job. if you're not happy, you should try it.

[dna82]

sorry i am not sure when u mean..
but sometimes individual powers or right might not help the growth of a country..everyone is selfish in a way.they want the best of themself not for the society..
the goal here are different..
in canada, where it is already developed..we sorta reach the top
in China, it's still developing, it will be faster if one person controls everything and everyone just follow along, of course it's easier say than done, but if by chance the leader is a good one..majority of ppl well be alright...China, there is a huge inequality gap..but if u look at the past..where developed countries like Canada, there were inequality as well....

oh, and now he finally gets it! that's the beauty of capitalism. It takes into account people are selfish. It creates a system where the selfish can realize their dreams AND help realize the dreams of those around them.

p.s same arguements again and again, 'china's growing, we need strong leadership'. 'omg, we're too big for a democracy'. 'omg, give it some time it'll happen soon'. so...how long are people supposed to wait....

[Blinky]

And you're not getting where he's coming from. Devil's advocate, parallelism, yeah?

I know you're not replying to me, but the analogy fails.

You don't need to work for anybody (start your own business or live off the land... I'll leave alone social services for the time being ;) ). Be your own boss and you can do and say whatever the hell you want. Hell, I could start a newspaper (a business!) saying how much monkey nut Stephen Harper sucks.

Working for somebody else is a choice. When that choice is made, one's behaviour is governed by what is best for that organization. If I choose to work for myself (or not even work), I can set my own rules, within the rules of a civil society... or I can look for an organization that tolerates or allows my viewpoints.

The Chinese in China can do whatever the fuck they want. The only thing is, depending on what they do, there will be repercussions.

They are persecuted for doing "whatever the fuck they want". This is wrong.


Mind you, China isn't some crazy state under martial law where nothing's allowed. It's not perfect there, nowhere in the world is perfect, but we can still hold our opinions, like you say, as long as it's civil and we have valid points.

Why can I not publish my own newspaper that criticizes the government? Why could I not light a candle in Tiananmen on 6/4?

[bcrdukes]

work is a choice, you exchange your time for money. spending company time doing personal shit is theft. management of course, allows for some discretion.

Work is a choice. Okay. Fine. But what if one chose not to work? They won't have money for basic necessities (food/clothing/shelter.) Hey, living on the streets is a choice, too, right? If I recall correctly, for you to receive social assistance from the gov't, you need an address. Oh wait. You'd have to have a job to start in order to pay rent. Duh! :eek:

just because your company says you can't access certain information while on company time is in no way similiar to censorship. read above.

But fundamentally, it's still censorship, no? So what if I wanted to post my hatred towards Asians, Blacks, and Jews on my White Supremacist forum? Is that not censorship? What the hell happened to freedom of speech? I'd say, the company I work for, or heck, any company for that matter, is censoring my right to express my beliefs. Oh noes! :eek:

And going back to my original point, you need to work in order to survive or you can be one of many crack addicts along Main and Hastings. But hey, that's freedom of choice. Hurray! :thumbsup:

p.s yes it's that simple, you can walk away from any job. if you're not happy, you should try it.

No, I'm quite happy with my job. There are pros and cons to what I do but by no means will I make that decision to live on the streets, thank you very much. And it's not about being happy or not. It's whether you want to play the game or not. So rather than suggest I try leaving my job, perhaps you should heed our own advice before suggesting others to do so. ;)

[Carl Johnson]

Communism what? Try to do anything, anything at all, in China without a stash of RMB.

You foolish people don't understand how it is like in China at all. I just flew back from Beijing and I saw how extreme contrast between those who "do have" and those who "don't have". Seriously, You think capitalism works well? A fully capitalistic society is what you get in the capital city.

Other than the fact that there is no voting and no representation of the people in the government, there is nothing communism about how China runs things now.

Like seriously, go there and come back and talk. Geez.

There is no voting for the people in China and no representation of its people in the government but the government sends agencies and parties down to the cities and provinces to manage things. When there are 13 billion people (and don't give me that hungry mouths bullshit they are ballin' out of control) that you need to manage, you better make sure they all believe in ONE thing and one government management. It makes a lot of sense to them because in the old days, when the government was actually split by more than one party (there are different "kings" during the Ming Dynasty era where provinces and lands get full control of themselves, only reporting to the "King" when summoned), hidden agendas caused civil wars eventually lead to the demise of the dynasty.

In review to THAT, some wisdom from back when America and Canada were still occupied by Indians, they decided that this current system is most fit for the nature of the Chinese people. In details it makes a lot of freaking sense, the government does not intervene as long as you believe in "one party and two principles". What you do with your talent and money is none of their concern. You do own your properties, and you do own your own business. Sure there are national ran business that get extra benefit and "pass cards" when it comes to contracting but soon we'll see the same with Obama's auto industry so in essense every government is moving to the same direction.

as for 6-4 thing, name me one government that hasn't killed people, and I'll say how foolish you are. Denying that they have done it is not an internationally accepted thing, but using that to bring out how China is a shit country is a western propaganda and tunnel vision that CNN wants to sell you.

I was AT Tiananmen Square on 6-4, and most people were not too keen or interested in this thing, it's only the Western society that wants to defame China for this. For the locals, there are so many instances where the government had lethally suppressed movements before n after 1989 (at least that's what the victims have been claiming) this event has no particular significance to them. To them, life just goes on.

There is media censorship in China but this whole "believe in one party" thing will not hold up if media is opened up. Either way this censorship doesn't really work that well as travelling is free-for-all in China (if other countries don't ask for damned visas when entering THEIR country with a China passport, which is a shame) you cannot bar what people will see and hear when they are abroad.

That is the very definition of communism you just laid out. I was at China last year and yes China is probably more capitalistic than most western countries. The economic growth there is astonishing with double digit growth for the last decade until recently. However, I very much doubt China will be standing where it is today without the millions and millions of migrant workers that goes into city every year and basically work their lives out and not getting very much in return at all (some were not even paid after they finished the contract).

Oh sure China is the new land of opportunities with tons of money to make. I am not disagreeing you one bit in terms of how business have changed in China. If you have good education and good experience in NA you can probably go back to China and find great position openings.

But ultimately I disagree with a dictatorship government that filters out information and not letting people express freely. I almost puked after flipping through different CCTV channels(party TV station) for 10 minutes with the amount of brainwash and propaganda going on.

[bcrdukes]

I know you're not replying to me, but the analogy fails.

You don't need to work for anybody (start your own business or live off the land... I'll leave alone social services for the time being ;) ). Be your own boss and you can do and say whatever the hell you want. Hell, I could start a newspaper (a business!) saying how much monkey nut Stephen Harper sucks.

No. You can't do whatever you want nor say whatever the hell you want to say. Ultimately, you will fail.


They are persecuted for doing "whatever the fuck they want". This is wrong.

Whose to say what's right and what's wrong?

Why can I not publish my own newspaper that criticizes the government? Why could I not light a candle in Tiananmen on 6/4?

Yes, you can. You have a choice. It's just that there will be repercussions to your actions. I can take a can of paint and spray the VAG with something like "Fuck you!" and if I get caught and go to jail, no? Is that not the same in China? People there are making and selling counterfeit CDs and I'm sure thousands of people get away with it.

[RFlush]

Why is there a debate about communist economic systems vs capitalist economic systems? I don't think that is what the issue is, it is about the government. The economic system, in my opinion, has a less impact on what the issue was about during June 4th. Wasn't it more for more democratic reforms? Against a single one party ruler?

I mean even in capitalist countries there are/were dictatorships. Capitalism or communism does not play a big role. This can be seen as how China's communism is not true Marxist communism and America's capitalism is not true Smith's capitalism. So why talk about it?

Anyhow, carry on.

[bcrdukes]

^
Fuck you for ruining my fun.

Anywhoo...I'm done replying to this thread. Thank you Blinky and dna82. You got my brains crunching again but I just want to say you are blinded by capitalism and are both ideal candidates of being a superstar model for capitalism. You both should have your own capitalism posters along Sunset Boulevard in Los Angeles.

Good night. :)

[dna82]

Work is a choice. Okay. Fine. But what if one chose not to work? They won't have money for basic necessities (food/clothing/shelter.) Hey, living on the streets is a choice, too, right? If I recall correctly, for you to receive social assistance from the gov't, you need an address. Oh wait. You'd have to have a job to start in order to pay rent. Duh! :eek:



But fundamentally, it's still censorship, no? So what if I wanted to post my hatred towards Asians, Blacks, and Jews on my White Supremacist forum? Is that not censorship? What the hell happened to freedom of speech? I'd say, the company I work for, or heck, any company for that matter, is censoring my right to express my beliefs.

And going back to my original point, you need to work in order to survive or you can be one of many crack addicts along Main and Hastings. But hey, that's freedom of choice. Hurray! :thumbsup:



No, I'm quite happy with my job. There are pros and cons to what I do but by no means will I make that decision to live on the streets, thank you very much. And it's not about being happy or not. It's whether you want to play the game or not. So rather than suggest I try leaving my job, perhaps you should heed our own advice before suggesting others to do so. ;)

first point. it is your choice to work. if you hold your personal time so valuable that you'd rather live on social assistance then find a basic job, then you're fucked. but nobody can force you to work but yourself. you can always find a job that can balance both your personal life and work life.

2nd point, again. nobody is saying you can't access those sites. if the government comes in and says nobody can visit this website on work time or personal time then that's censorship. but when you take up a job, you sacrifice your personal time for the organization. doing your personal work on company time when you could just as easily do it from home is redundant. Also using company equipment for personal benefit is... meh. the company creates policies on how to use their equipment and what is considered proper use. you cannot use other peoples equipment as if it were your own.

if you want to watch porn while at work, i suggest you find a career that matches you, instead of screaming bloody censorship.

work is not a requirement, the government has no laws governing that all individuals MUST work. but if you want to have a happy life, then i suggest you find work that suits your needs.

p.s screaming 'fire' in a crowded movie theater is not considered an expression of free speech. Not being able to use the internet is not considered censorship.

[RFlush]

The best form of censorship is when people don't know that they are being censored. Seems like it is working :)

[+Kardboard+]

If only more people knew the differences between those political differences RFlush listed earlier. I tell people I'm a Conservative and they freak out, then I explain that I'm a Classical Conservative, and they just don't get it.

Same deal here.

The media, our educational system, what have you, have given us a certain presentation of how China is, how its government is, how its people are. Going through this thread and talking to friends about this just makes it all the more apparent that half of us don't know what the heck we're talking about. We think we do, but we don't. Not completely, anyway. It really shouldn't be that easy to form a rock-solid opinion on something without testing it, challenging it first.

Hmm, I'll just watch this for a while. :)

[Blinky]

No. You can't do whatever you want nor say whatever the hell you want to say. Ultimately, you will fail.

But the reasons for failure will be different. I will fail if I'm an idiotic publishing bastard because my product sucks (it fails because it does meet a societal norm). Note I said societal norm -- societal norms are not something regulated by the government. I am free to do it, and society decides that it "doesn't work". Not government.

Let's take another example - I can publish midget porn. I could probably make money doing it. It fails most societal norms but it fits Lomac's (and others of his ilk), but in no way does the government disallow me from publishing consensual adult midget porn.

Whose to say what's right and what's wrong?

A very philosophical question. But let's step back. Who is to say what's right and wrong? Let's start with the United Nations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights

Yes, you can. You have a choice. It's just that there will be repercussions to your actions. I can take a can of paint and spray the VAG with something like "Fuck you!" and if I get caught and go to jail, no? Is that not the same in China? People there are making and selling counterfeit CDs and I'm sure thousands of people get away with it.

Getting fined for spraypainting public property and getting persecuted for political dissent are on entirely different planets.

Which one are you on?

[Manic!]

W If I recall correctly, for you to receive social assistance from the gov't, you need an address. Oh wait. You'd have to have a job to start in order to pay rent. Duh! :eek:




You can stay at a shelter for free and use that as a address. I am an apartment manager and have had people do that.

[Culture_Vulture]

Yeah...because they put military development before caring for their citizens... :rolleyes:

The United States does that too. Except they're better at hiding it.

Regardless though, the keypoint of my post was the last sentence.

[LengJai]

your parallelism is flawed.

work is a choice, you exchange your time for money. spending company time doing personal shit is theft. management of course, allows for some discretion.

just because your company says you can't access certain information while on company time is in no way similiar to censorship. read above.

p.s yes it's that simple, you can walk away from any job. if you're not happy, you should try it.

because a company says you can't, means you can't. i work at a place (can't say ironically), that intentionally blocks certain sites, (emails, videostream, etc) and they track what you surf, how long etc etc. remind you of this whole discussion? even if i wanted to fucking try, i can't, and believe, me, i've tried. some have surfed other sites, got tracked, got in trouble.

to whoever else posted "out of work, u do whatever". sorry, not at my job. i remember a thread here, saying "interesting shit at work no one knows" or something. i wanted to, but i'd get in shit. i can't talk about what i do, where or when i work. remind you of anything in this thread?

man, i can't even talk a few words in my own language without getting heat. i can't wear certain shirts that are not even in the least bit offensive (and i'm sure alot of jobs require this) even though I don't see clients or customers.

bcrdukes' parallel is a good one, simple and to the point. think of the workplace as the country, not a job. you don't like.... well, you can't up and leave and find another right away. i've been trying.
people in china can't just say, "fuck it, let's go to canada". if they could, they would in a heartbeat.
as easy-e once said, "eazy-r said than dun"

[m4k4v4li]

...

[RFlush]

The problem with people trying to justify some political or economic goals of China, is that it is often those who speak so blindly and stupid are the ones who get recognized. RS has had many posts about China from the last 2 years, often people just start calling each other names and then the thread starts to turn into shit.

Personally, I try to stay away from the China threads as the debates go no where. In my opinion, people who want to argue so much about the rights and wrongs of China and America should first read some books about the history of each country, the economic systems, the political systems and most important should visit each country. Try opening your eyes to BOTH sides, and not just one side. Travel to each country, and experience it yourself instead of what you see and hear from the media; don't be so biased.

As an economics major and someone who has lived in Canada my whole life, I have recently been to China a few times and have seen how parts of China is like. I cannot say I have been to all parts, most importantly I have not been to the rural parts of China, but I have also not been in rural parts of Canada and have not seen the harshness that this country and government has caused. I understand many of the development theories and that many countries are still behind. China itself is not a developed country, so comparing them to us is on an uneven level. One of the first things we learn in economics is that often western society imposes their ideals and morals onto other countries. Whether this is good or bad, that is for you to decide.

I just urge that people actually understand all the factors before talking about what is "right" and what is "wrong" and try to keep an open mind that both sides have valid points.

[dna82]

because a company says you can't, means you can't. i work at a place (can't say ironically), that intentionally blocks certain sites, (emails, videostream, etc) and they track what you surf, how long etc etc. remind you of this whole discussion? even if i wanted to fucking try, i can't, and believe, me, i've tried. some have surfed other sites, got tracked, got in trouble.

to whoever else posted "out of work, u do whatever". sorry, not at my job. i remember a thread here, saying "interesting shit at work no one knows" or something. i wanted to, but i'd get in shit. i can't talk about what i do, where or when i work. remind you of anything in this thread?

man, i can't even talk a few words in my own language without getting heat. i can't wear certain shirts that are not even in the least bit offensive (and i'm sure alot of jobs require this) even though I don't see clients or customers.

bcrdukes' parallel is a good one, simple and to the point. think of the workplace as the country, not a job. you don't like.... well, you can't up and leave and find another right away. i've been trying.
people in china can't just say, "fuck it, let's go to canada". if they could, they would in a heartbeat.
as easy-e once said, "eazy-r said than dun"


use your own computer on your own time and you wouldn't have this problem.
using company time on company computers is not. that is not censorship.

[RFlush]

use your own computer on your own time and you wouldn't have this problem.
using company time on company computers is not. that is not censorship.

How about censorship that happens that you might not even know? Such as in the media?

[SkinnyPupp]

I can't believe people are comparing the rape of an entire culture, to looking at NSFW threads at work. Wow.

[fetched]

I can't believe people are comparing the rape of an entire culture, to looking at NSFW threads at work. Wow.

I know eh?
Canada and United States harsh raped the Natives :thumbsup:
Please stay on the current topic (Year 1989)
And speaking of history, China is one of the good guys.

[goo3]

How about we think of IT as the police and management as the military/govt. You obviously aren't going to oppose them, are you? If you did, you'd be out of a job. Don't bite the hand that feeds you but after 5pm, okay, sure, but when Monday morning rolls around at 8:30am, you're back in the same shit hole you were in last Friday.

In the end, Communism or Capitalism is just a systematic means to an end. Do you remember as a child protesting against your parents demand that you eat your veggies? Yeah? And if you opposed them, did they give you a beating? Do you still oppose or beat your parents? No, because I'm sure they'd want you out of the house right away.

Not exactly sure I follow you. We've got roles to fill / rules to follow when we're part of an organization, a sports team, even as drivers on the road, etc. if we want to do well and succeed. Just the way it is.. seems that's what ur saying..

I don't see how this type of "can't do whatever the fuck" compares in magnitude to the one where you have a 2nd boss when you get off work. Maybe you have a lenient one now, what if you get a Kim Jong-il or Mahmoud Ahmedinojad? Then what? Take it up the ass before, during, and after work cuz you have no cards to play.

[SkinnyPupp]

I know eh?
Canada and United States harsh raped the Natives :thumbsup:
Please stay on the current topic (Year 1989)
And speaking of history, China is one of the good guys.
The current topic is how the Communists essentially raped the nation of all its culture and identity. Do you really think it's as simple as "not being able to vote"? Do you think that guy stood in front of the tank because he wanted to view Wikipedia? Look at mainland people (generally). It goes far beyond just that. They have no more class, no more culture, because everything has been bleached away (nothing against Mainland people, they simply don't know any better. That's why I don't bother arguing with them any more). Instead of amazing historical monuments and fascinating places of history, they have posters and statues of Chairman Mao, other "feats" that the PRC built, and the stupid fucking bird's nest stadium.

All that's left are brainwashed people who don't know any better, and all they give a shit about any more is the latest LV bag and shiny BMW. They have been fooled into thinking economy is everything, and the nation has basically turned into a bunch of classless brainwashed money grubbing drones.

China has an amazing history. I love China. Anything before 1949 or so is amazing to learn about and discover. The country itself has some amazing things to see, and people to meet, as long as you stay far away from the shithole phony cities.

[Nightwalker]

The parallel is FUCKING BULLSHIT because that's NOT the government, and there are labor laws here to PROTECT employees. You're free to pursue any career, and every one is run differently.

Guess what you need to deal with in either country, with or without a job? The government! Is life here (if you have a shitty job with a lot of corporate pressure) like government censorship? NO! They are only interested in the time that they are PAYING you for.

[m4k4v4li]

The current topic is how the Communists essentially raped the nation of all its culture and identity. Do you really think it's as simple as "not being able to vote"? Do you think that guy stood in front of the tank because he wanted to view Wikipedia? Look at mainland people (generally). It goes far beyond just that. They have no more class, no more culture, because everything has been bleached away (nothing against Mainland people, they simply don't know any better. That's why I don't bother arguing with them any more). Instead of amazing historical monuments and fascinating places of history, they have posters and statues of Chairman Mao, other "feats" that the PRC built, and the stupid fucking bird's nest stadium.

All that's left are brainwashed people who don't know any better, and all they give a shit about any more is the latest LV bag and shiny BMW. They have been fooled into thinking economy is everything, and the nation has basically turned into a bunch of classless brainwashed money grubbing drones.

China has an amazing history. I love China. Anything before 1949 or so is amazing to learn about and discover. The country itself has some amazing things to see, and people to meet, as long as you stay far away from the shithole phony cities.

ha ha ha

people aren't as brainwashed as you think. stop fucking talking about mao because thats HISTORY. the majority do not idolize mao, nor do they hate him. its mixed. how can you be a sheep when you live through something like the cultural revolution, or tiananmen square massacre
even tho theres censorship, everybody still knows

and NA does not have money loving, porsche driving, laguna beach, vip bottle service, tailored suits, platnum card, country club, holt renfrew buying snotty fucks either huh? where is the culture in corporate america? if you call being shallow and carrying yourself with a mannerism that looks down upon others CLASS then sure, behind those gucci shades we're still of the same kind

gtfo if you think chinese people have been raped of their culture, its something you'll never fully understand. no matter how much time you spend in china or how ever many chinese people you befriend if you hold the attitude you hold

"i believe that our educatiaaaan like such as south africuhhh and the iraq everywhere such as and should help the US uhh iraq and asian countries"
theres your culture
http://georgenet.net/bigcorporateflag.gif

[El Bastardo]

This thread solved all the world's problems. Rated A++
Would read again. Can't wait for the sequel.

[StylinRed]

too much to read and to little care in reading it


sooo..... this happened when i was a little kid and i remember my mom engrossed with the television at that time, and im sad to say i understand very little of it aside from the point that the students wanted china to open up


but from what i recently learned of it is the students at the time (who were the prosperous in china at that time) wanted china to open up to world for them so that they could prosper more; Chinas beliefs at that time were the country shouldn't open up yet until more of the populace could prosper and the students didn't like that and revolted and got taken down

that about it?






anyway i hear there's pictures that were released of Tanks actually running over students and ppl with flame throwers torching them, anyone have a link?

[Carl Johnson]

^
see the link i had posted

[dna82]

How about censorship that happens that you might not even know? Such as in the media?

not reporting things is not censorship.

if the government steps in and says you CAN'T report on this, that's censorship

if media companies say 'we DON'T want to report on this' that is NOT censorship.

[dna82]

I was banned for a week for revealing the shitty ending to terminator salvation

funny how someone was mentioning how immigrants should some how feel guilty because their parents are rich while millions of other Chinese people are suffering

what makes Canadians exempt from this? Where do you think the wealth and freedoms we enjoy come from? The same source, the exploitation of a large and poor working class in a 3rd world country and a shit load of natural resources. Here we are sitting fat pointing our fingers being apart of the small percentage of the world that isn’t living like shit. How the fuck do you think capitalism works? Sorry but there are few countries where you can work 40 hours a week doing labor with no education and still enjoy living in a nice home, drive a car, plasma tv, retirement package and all the other crazy useless shit you want to buy in between. Don’t get your panties all up in a twist cuz chinks want what you have too

Someone mentioned political vs economic freedom, and someone went ape shit about how luckily in Canada we can enjoy both because we don’t have a corrupted fucked up government, geez, why can’t people in china have the freedom of choice to be able to enjoy everything we have over here too! Obviously they’re fucked up if they cant have both political and economic freedom, that I cherish so much evidently from how easy I think it comes. All the gov’t has to do is give it too them, what greedy bastards keeping it for themselves.

Ever stop to think what happens when 1 billion Chinese people living below the poverty line with no education start believing they have a voice in government affairs? I want political freedom! Im gonna strike and quit my job till I get better benefits! I want to vote for an assortment of political parties!! I want political stability and freedom!!! Sorry but political freedom and economic freedom can not happen simultaneously in china. At least not yet. Utter chaos would ensue, GLOBALLY. if you keep the majority of ur population dumbed down through censorship its easier to control, especially when it consist of 1/3 of the worlds population. Its harsh but its reality. Its for your own fucking good too.

And why the fuck are we talking so much about communism? O wait, that’s cuz all the white boys here think they know it all. China = big baddd commies, just like they were in the 80s! lets go smoke weed and advocate for world peace dude. The gov’t may still run under a communist headline, but that’s about it, LOL @ ur face if you think that’s how they operate. China is pushing so hard to promote a prosperous middle class and free private enterprise, you know… the ones investing heavily in NA. Please don’t bring human rights into the argument, the overall living standard is being raised significantly year after year. The average joe (or wong) bad joke I know… suddenly has an internet connection, and a tv, and is thinking about maybe buying a pair of nikes and sending his/her child to school. People are being fed on 3% fertile land and can drink clean water under a roof. They’re starting to have things, lots more things. That is the biggest human rights justification you can do for your people as a nation. They run just like how Canada run$. Its all about the RMB ^_^

you are an idiot and a racist. nobody in this thread even bashed chinese people. we're talking about the chinese government. but there you go, pulling out the race card.

go die in a fire.

you, yc, ddgauge, and whoever the fuck are all too stubborn to admit the very simple and glaring fact.

Unprecedented economic growth is not an excuse to abuse basic human rights.
Giving more time to an authoritarian government to consolidate power is not an effective means for democratic reform.
China supports Iran, Sudan, N.Korea, Myanmar. wow, is there any other shit country I haven't labeled?

list goes on, but im sure you guys will think of some assinine, obscure and evasive means to avoid the core issues.

[m4k4v4li]

you wouldnt have a computer to type out that post if china was a democracy

[dna82]

you wouldnt have a computer to type out that post if china was a democracy



list goes on, but im sure you guys will think of some assinine, obscure and evasive means to avoid the core issues.

I rest, my case.

[m4k4v4li]

fair enough
maybe I am just too stubborn to actually believe China is trying to progress forward

lol its a pity how pissed off you get dna, hopefully one day you'll be able to see beyond black and white

[dna82]

fair enough
maybe I am just too stubborn to actually believe China is trying to progress forward

lol its a pity how pissed off you get dna, hopefully one day you'll be able to see beyond black and white



list goes on, but im sure you guys will think of some assinine, obscure and evasive means to avoid the core issues.

wow, how many times do you want me to qoute myself?

ask yourself this.
China is progressing towards what exactly? the richest authoritarian state in the world? congrats! your competition for this illustrious title is, Vietnam, Myanmar, Nkorea, Cuba, Saudia Arabia. i'm sure they'll be the smartest kid in the special ed's class.

[Nightwalker]

ha ha ha

people aren't as brainwashed as you think. stop fucking talking about mao because thats HISTORY. the majority do not idolize mao, nor do they hate him. its mixed. how can you be a sheep when you live through something like the cultural revolution, or tiananmen square massacre
even tho theres censorship, everybody still knows

and NA does not have money loving, porsche driving, laguna beach, vip bottle service, tailored suits, platnum card, country club, holt renfrew buying snotty fucks either huh? where is the culture in corporate america? if you call being shallow and carrying yourself with a mannerism that looks down upon others CLASS then sure, behind those gucci shades we're still of the same kind

gtfo if you think chinese people have been raped of their culture, its something you'll never fully understand. no matter how much time you spend in china or how ever many chinese people you befriend if you hold the attitude you hold

"i believe that our educatiaaaan like such as south africuhhh and the iraq everywhere such as and should help the US uhh iraq and asian countries"
theres your culture
http://georgenet.net/bigcorporateflag.gif

Protip: We're not American.

[StylinRed]

the USA stifles Democracy too, look at Russia the USA helped Yeltsin crush Democracy because those democrats didn't believe in Capitalism(etc etc, Shock Doctrine)

[m4k4v4li]

haha ill agree to disagree

[m4k4v4li]

Protip: We're not American.

thats true. but we're also the size of california

[RFlush]

not reporting things is not censorship.

if the government steps in and says you CAN'T report on this, that's censorship

if media companies say 'we DON'T want to report on this' that is NOT censorship.

media reporting in a biased way and alterating interviews is pretty much censorship. Maybe you should look at the definition of censorship. In my opinion, censorship and proaganda go hand and hand.

[dna82]

media reporting in a biased way and alterating interviews is pretty much censorship. Maybe you should look at the definition of censorship. In my opinion, censorship and proaganda go hand and hand.

Censorship, the control of speech and other forms of human expression.
by this broad definition, there is no escape from it. everything is censored. is that what you wanted to hear? what exactly are you trying to say?

semantics, geezes.

[fetched]

The current topic is how the Communists essentially raped the nation of all its culture and identity. Do you really think it's as simple as "not being able to vote"? Do you think that guy stood in front of the tank because he wanted to view Wikipedia? Look at mainland people (generally). It goes far beyond just that. They have no more class, no more culture, because everything has been bleached away (nothing against Mainland people, they simply don't know any better. That's why I don't bother arguing with them any more). Instead of amazing historical monuments and fascinating places of history, they have posters and statues of Chairman Mao, other "feats" that the PRC built, and the stupid fucking bird's nest stadium.

All that's left are brainwashed people who don't know any better, and all they give a shit about any more is the latest LV bag and shiny BMW. They have been fooled into thinking economy is everything, and the nation has basically turned into a bunch of classless brainwashed money grubbing drones.

China has an amazing history. I love China. Anything before 1949 or so is amazing to learn about and discover. The country itself has some amazing things to see, and people to meet, as long as you stay far away from the shithole phony cities.

I'm feel sorry for you, because you don't know anything about China. What makes you think they have no class, no more culture? Ask most people about China's history before 1949, they will tell you the dynasties and opium smoking China men.
China still has most historic structures (some were burnt and destroyed by the Japanese and the British) and have become tourist attractions. Chairman Mao's picture no longer exists anywhere besides historic government buildings, only classic quotes from him are hanging in normal government buildings and etc.
Bird Nest is not a fucking stupid building, any stadium that can fit over 80,000 people is an architectural marvel. Besides, it's not even designed by the Chinese.
Canada/US is no better than China, see all the ricers with no taste? And bling this chrome that? You call that class? White guys wearing Ed Hardy Dom Rebel thinking their the shit? C'mon.. China is still in it's industrial age, just like what Canada and the United States gone through decades ago. No matter how much you complain about human rights blah blah blah, things are going to happen that will overlook human rights for economic gain, hence Canada/US(Chinese railroad workers vs Black Slaves).
You guys cry about how it is not right to say that China needs time for things to change, but it is the inconvenient truth. China just like any other developing country will go through moderate changes through out it's phase into a developed country, although China has more problem than what Can/US have, it is also expected that in a country that inhabits 1.3billion people, things are bound to be different.
History of China is anything before June 6th, 2009. Anyone will tell you Capitalism in 2009 in China is better than it was in 1949.

DNA:
China supports Sudan, N Korea, Venezuela, Russia
US supports Israel, Pakistan, Afghanistan(before 911) other rogue countries.

It's all about World Power!

[+Kardboard+]

C'mon.. China is still in it's industrial age, just like what Canada and the United States gone through decades ago. No matter how much you complain about human rights blah blah blah, things are going to happen that will overlook human rights for economic gain, hence Canada/US(Chinese railroad workers vs Black Slaves).
You guys cry about how it is not right to say that China needs time for things to change, but it is the inconvenient truth. China just like any other developing country will go through moderate changes through out it's phase into a developed country, although China has more problem than what Can/US have, it is also expected that in a country that inhabits 1.3billion people

Ding ding ding ding, even though I don't agree with all that you said, you hit the hammer on the nail right there. I minored in econ, specifically economic history, so I can attest to the horrors of what the Industrial Revolution brought about.

If anything, perhaps some of us don't want the same to happen to China during their transition, at least that's the case for me.

[SkinnyPupp]

Ask most people about China's history before 1949, they will tell you the dynasties and opium smoking China men.
Yup, before the communists came around to make things perfect, China was nothing but a bunch of shit eating opium smoking crackheads. Nothing good came out of China before that. No art, no literature, no major inventions. Thanks Mao, for making China such a great place! :thumbsup:

BTW thanks for proving my point :)

[Hehe]

Some of you don't get the criticism that most of us are trying to discuss here is about Chinese government rather than China as a whole.

6-4 was an unfortunate event due to a conflict in political interest. Fast forward 20 years later, the Chinese government is still crap in term of anything that go against its interest.

It doesn't matter what age China is, industrial or what not, it's just the Chinese government is still doing everything it can to protect itself from collapsing (or even slightly chance). They have been brainwashing their citizens for years to ensure that events like industrial revolutions in the western worlds does not occur to them. They are not doing this in the best interest of Chinese people, but the interest of the communist party.

[fetched]

Yup, before the communists came around to make things perfect, China was nothing but a bunch of shit eating opium smoking crackheads. Nothing good came out of China before that. No art, no literature, no major inventions. Thanks Mao, for making China such a great place! :thumbsup:

BTW thanks for proving my point :)

um..what?
Dynasties
Which included all the art, literature, and inventions.
hahahahaha
Thanks for proving my point.

[Hehe]

^

I believe it was sarcasm.....

[fetched]

^
You
Are
Clueless
He thought i was brainwashed where I only know about opium blah blah, and pointed out there are arts lit other stuff in China's history hence Dynasties.
Aiii These threads are pointless, going back and forth back and forth. Same topic every time and i can't stop myself from typing lol

[Carl Johnson]

Some of you don't get the criticism that most of us are trying to discuss here is about Chinese government rather than China as a whole.

6-4 was an unfortunate event due to a conflict in political interest. Fast forward 20 years later, the Chinese government is still crap in term of anything that go against its interest.

It doesn't matter what age China is, industrial or what not, it's just the Chinese government is still doing everything it can to protect itself from collapsing (or even slightly chance). They have been brainwashing their citizens for years to ensure that events like industrial revolutions in the western worlds does not occur to them. They are not doing this in the best interest of Chinese people, but the interest of the communist party.

and the government is building up the largest army in the world and spending crap load of money on developing military technologies and are damn proud of it. but they don't want you to hear about all the unsafe school buildings in the rural areas. thousands of young student died last year from earthquake because school builders and province officials kept most of the project monies to themselves. kids? who cares the babies can to born again right

[dna82]

I'm feel sorry for you, because you don't know anything about China. What makes you think they have no class, no more culture? Ask most people about China's history before 1949, they will tell you the dynasties and opium smoking China men.
China still has most historic structures (some were burnt and destroyed by the Japanese and the British) and have become tourist attractions. Chairman Mao's picture no longer exists anywhere besides historic government buildings, only classic quotes from him are hanging in normal government buildings and etc.
Bird Nest is not a fucking stupid building, any stadium that can fit over 80,000 people is an architectural marvel. Besides, it's not even designed by the Chinese.
Canada/US is no better than China, see all the ricers with no taste? And bling this chrome that? You call that class? White guys wearing Ed Hardy Dom Rebel thinking their the shit? C'mon.. China is still in it's industrial age, just like what Canada and the United States gone through decades ago. No matter how much you complain about human rights blah blah blah, things are going to happen that will overlook human rights for economic gain, hence Canada/US(Chinese railroad workers vs Black Slaves).
You guys cry about how it is not right to say that China needs time for things to change, but it is the inconvenient truth. China just like any other developing country will go through moderate changes through out it's phase into a developed country, although China has more problem than what Can/US have, it is also expected that in a country that inhabits 1.3billion people, things are bound to be different.
History of China is anything before June 6th, 2009. Anyone will tell you Capitalism in 2009 in China is better than it was in 1949.

DNA:
China supports Sudan, N Korea, Venezuela, Russia
US supports Israel, Pakistan, Afghanistan(before 911) other rogue countries.

It's all about World Power!


o, pakistan, yes, the us supports them. what did they get in return? money to fight militants and a civilian elected government. that's progress.
us supported afghanistan to repel a russian invasion. gg.
isreal? whats wrong with them? sure they do some fucked up shit, but their people are generally happy, and have a say in their political sphere. hell, if you were surrounded by countries that literally don't believe you have the right to exist, it's hard to play nicely.
name me another country. the us isn't perfect, far from it. but it's still one of the best countries in the world.

you do realize that the Chinese Government has not made one step towards democratic reform since....ever.
what makes you have faith in the Chinese government? to let go of so much unchecked power...

you do realize your entire post can be condensed to.
'we're growing, so we should be allowed to do whatever the fuck we want, when we grow up, then we'll play by the rules set out by our peers.' pointing out other people's histories does not justify your own atrocities. if anything, you should learn from our mistakes and move on.

you are a child.

[+Kardboard+]

Wrong, when they grow up, they want to play by their own rules. They want the world to go by their rules and the mildly alarming thing is, that might just end up being the case.

EDIT: Interpret that as you will.

[hk20000]

That is the very definition of communism you just laid out. I was at China last year and yes China is probably more capitalistic than most western countries. The economic growth there is astonishing with double digit growth for the last decade until recently. However, I very much doubt China will be standing where it is today without the millions and millions of migrant workers that goes into city every year and basically work their lives out and not getting very much in return at all (some were not even paid after they finished the contract).

Oh sure China is the new land of opportunities with tons of money to make. I am not disagreeing you one bit in terms of how business have changed in China. If you have good education and good experience in NA you can probably go back to China and find great position openings.

But ultimately I disagree with a dictatorship government that filters out information and not letting people express freely. I almost puked after flipping through different CCTV channels(party TV station) for 10 minutes with the amount of brainwash and propaganda going on.

Yes I understand that you don't like that style, but like I said, there is very little barrage if you decide to travel to more "free" places around China which is like Taiwan, Japan, HK, etc for like peanuts money. So the brainwashing is difficult, if not arguably useless in this day and age.

It is a bit of a brainwash I agree, but with much of its population moving in and out of the brainwash salon they'll figure it out eventually.

If you were in China recently, the brainwash is a lot less profound. There's no morning singing of "hail Director Mao" or any dictator worshipping, there is no more funny patriotic songs playing on the radio any more. The new leader in China pretty much runs his country how the Conservatives here would run it.... Subtle control is the new name of the game.

But I still abhor the fact how everyone in the democratic society deem that "life in China must be shit" because of separate events like the 6-4.....because it just is not so. If you remember that the true motives of the democratic movement in 1989 it was not so much of "get rid of this communistic government" more like "make this government more responsive to its people, and be open about its policies, then maybe let us vote"......it's a sign that they don't really think everything was shit with how things were run.

It is sad that the army got involved to suppress them, but when your front yard is crowded by a tour of lunatics, you take out your shotgun too.

[+Kardboard+]

It is sad that the army got involved to suppress them, but when your front yard is crowded by a tour of lunatics, you take out your shotgun too.
So we're all rednecks now?

[Lomac]

It's easy to sit behind a computer, or even just sit on the park bench with a friend in a first world country, and criticize other countries that aren't on par -- economically, politically or socially -- with the one you're in. North America and the majority of the Western European countries either began as a democracy (no matter how restricted it was, what with making it illegal for many people to have a vote), or went from a form of monarchy or oligarchy into a democracy. Many of these democratic countries have had decades, if not hundreds of years, to have proper "democratic" political systems put into place. They've had time to get their general population used to the idea, regardless of how many millions or billions of people are in the country.

For a country with over 1.1 billion people, India’s form of democracy seems to work just fine. Yes, they have their own hurdles to overcome but, just like every other country in the world, it’s not unique to them or the country’s political hemisphere. Just like China, despite an economic growth, India suffers from wide famine, poverty and illiteracy. Yet, somehow, they’re managing to hold onto the “democratic dream” However, they’ve had a few decades to try to get it right.

I guess what I’m trying to state here is that no matter how many people there are in the country, nor what it’s like economically or socially, it’s never “too late” to give it a shot. Saying that it wont work simply, well, doesn’t work.

[m4k4v4li]

democracy works well where its relatively easy to find a well paying 40+ hour a week job with minimal education if any at all and not many others to compete with

it works even better when theres money leftover from your paycheck to buy clothes or that new ipod or to throwdown on payments towards leasing a nicer ride or maybe going out for dinner

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

the world isn't fair, boohoo, that's too bad. someone's gotta get the short end of the stick.

[dna82]

[QUOTE=hk20000;6455485]Yes I understand that you don't like that style, but like I said, there is very little barrage if you decide to travel to more "free" places around China which is like Taiwan, Japan, HK, etc for like peanuts money. So the brainwashing is difficult, if not arguably useless in this day and age.
It is a bit of a brainwash I agree, but with much of its population moving in and out of the brainwash salon they'll figure it out eventually.

If you were in China recently, the brainwash is a lot less profound. There's no morning singing of "hail Director Mao" or any dictator worshipping, there is no more funny patriotic songs playing on the radio any more. The new leader in China pretty much runs his country how the Conservatives here would run it.... Subtle control is the new name of the game.

But I still abhor the fact how everyone in the democratic society deem that "life in China must be shit" because of separate events like the 6-4.....because it just is not so. If you remember that the true motives of the democratic movement in 1989 it was not so much of "get rid of this communistic government" more like "make this government more responsive to its people, and be open about its policies, then maybe let us vote"......it's a sign that they don't really think everything was shit with how things were run.

It is sad that the army got involved to suppress them, but when your front yard is crowded by a tour of lunatics, you take out your shotgun too.QUOTE]

on china's population, how many do you think would qualify for a visa to Taiwan, Japan, Canada, or any other developed nation for that matter.

that's lunancy?

[Hehe]

democracy works well where its relatively easy to find a well paying 40+ hour a week job with minimal education if any at all and not many others to compete with

it works even better when theres money leftover from your paycheck to buy clothes or that new ipod or to throwdown on payments towards leasing a nicer ride or maybe going out for dinner

I don't see why having labor market stability has anything to do with democracy or any sort of political system for that matter.

As a matter of fact, democracy allows people to really get what they need, if they actually need some reform on labor laws to facilitate their life, they would elect proper representatives to go according to their plan. In China, however, the communist party decides what's good for the country. They want to keep their low wage to compete in the manufacturing area, they put a wage ceiling (it's actually a wage floor, but most companies just put it as the standard, hence the floor no longer works as it intended to be)

For politically advanced countries (you can check some northern european countries like Denmark)... they have a system so well developed, that politicians are really like public servant (literally)... they serve their people and if they don't get the job done accordingly, they get swapped out on the next election.

In China, high-ranked public officers are like gods, as long as they have enough power, they can virtually control anything they want, and people are afraid of messing up with them... in contrast, Canada or US politicians, you better watch out yourself or you could very well be on the next front cover on gossip magazines for scandals.

[goo3]

sorry i am not sure when u mean..
but sometimes individual powers or right might not help the growth of a country..everyone is selfish in a way.they want the best of themself not for the society..

the goal here are different..
in canada, where it is already developed..we sorta reach the top
in China, it's still developing, it will be faster if one person controls everything and everyone just follow along, of course it's easier say than done, but if by chance the leader is a good one..majority of ppl well be alright...China, there is a huge inequality gap..but if u look at the past..where developed countries like Canada, there were inequality as well....

What I'm saying is you need to have your BS antennas up more and not believe everything you hear from the gov't. They are their own boss. Nobody can force them to be honest. If they screw up, they can just cover it up, easily.

Look at it this way.. remember the polish dude who got tasered to death? What was the RCMP's first reaction? He attacked first, self-defense, blah, blah, blah.. For some reason, they're allowed to investigate themselves. The cops can say whatever they want and no one will ever know about it.

But wait, it got filmed! Then it got on the news. And all hell broke loose. As much as the defensive China losers like to minimize the importance of free media, that's just one reason why free media is such a big deal, as imperfect and biased and filled with money driven lazy ppl as it is.

There's nothing ppl can do about the gov't, so they should just live their lives. That's fine. But that doesn't mean you should eat up their excuses. How much of the power they have now do they honestly need to grow China? How do you know they haven't been low-balling targets and only giving the minimum to the population so that they don't complain? Believe me, if I was them, I'd be doing that and keeping the money in reserve.. why give up power and make it harder on myself? If you say different, then your either really street dumb or a poor politician, haha.

[m4k4v4li]

I agree^

but it is slowly progressing and improving, especially with all of the outside pressure for democratic reform

although there is censorship on the internet, when corrupted officials get caught doing dirty business, it still gets widely published

our new generation is a lot more open minded and accustomed to the idea of democracy, as the values and attitude of the new breed change, so will governing policies and the status quo imo... maybe not at the same rate, but surely they will. keep in mind there is also a lot of internal fighting and politics within the communist party, although it may be easier to cover up... politicians still try to exploit and jump on scandals and corruption. also note china only opened its doors to the world 20 years ago

even democracy in the west has taken centuries to develop and form into what it is today, and historically has had more accomodating socio-economic circumstances that bring about democracy

what the international community needs to do is really try and understand how China operates, assist and guide it, not bash and condemn them on every chance they get

China is essentially still a developing country, and the western world seems to forget that and hold them to the same standards as other g8 countries and expect them to adpot western values overnight

whats scary is that with the enormous growth seen recently, china can flip the bird at the rest of the world and call its own shots, nobody can do anything about it either but bitch and whine

[Meowjin]

Because india is not a democracy :rolleyes:

[Carl Johnson]

I agree^

but it is slowly progressing and improving, especially with all of the outside pressure for democratic reform

although there is censorship on the internet, when corrupted officials get caught doing dirty business, it still gets widely published

our new generation is a lot more open minded and accustomed to the idea of democracy, as the values and attitude of the new breed change, so will governing policies and the status quo imo... maybe not at the same rate, but surely they will. keep in mind there is also a lot of internal fighting and politics within the communist party, although it may be easier to cover up... politicians still try to exploit and jump on scandals and corruption. also note china only opened its doors to the world 20 years ago

even democracy in the west has taken centuries to develop and form into what it is today, and historically has had more accomodating socio-economic circumstances that bring about democracy

what the international community needs to do is really try and understand how China operates, assist and guide it, not bash and condemn them on every chance they get

China is essentially still a developing country, and the western world seems to forget that and hold them to the same standards as other g8 countries and expect them to adpot western values overnight

whats scary is that with the enormous growth seen recently, china can flip the bird at the rest of the world and call its own shots, nobody can do anything about it either but bitch and whine


China is still developing countries and western countries are expecting too much of them in a short period of time is BS. Those students demanded basic human rights such as: freedom of the press, freedom to express, freedom of gathering, and freedom to travel. Things we don't even think about it here.

And guess what I found today whiling looking through the news: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/09/world/asia/09china.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss

China has not made a single positive step towards in opening themselves up as far as politics & government control goes for last 20 years. In fact they are moving backward.

[m4k4v4li]

India was also colonized by Britain for close to 2 centuries

copy and pasted off a pm from another rs'er

"money talks so whether it be so-called Communism or American Capitalism, such systems are just a means to an end of some sort open to interpretation. I'd say most of the idiots posting have no clue what happened before WW2 with the countries mentioned or what socio-economic impact historic events have played into shaping the world it is today"

I find it strange how the majority posting with opposing views are white or white washed asians that haven't lived and experienced life in China. and no im not talking about vacationing or touring around, im talking about really living day to day life and interacting with locals, from the rural countryside to the glamorous metropolitan areas like shanghai

by your theory, all the asian immigrints that move to Canada for a better life should hate the chinese gov't even more

i love how when anyone defends the chinese gov't they're automatically labelled as being "brain washed" or how they think the chinese gov't is perfect

think about it, its like if fresh off the boat chinese people started running their mouth like they know everything about the canadian gov't and telling canadians what ought to be

lol u must be blind if you think the chinese gov't has backtracked in the last 20 years

[Ludepower]

I find it strange how the majority posting with opposing views are white or white washed asians that haven't lived and experienced life in China. and no im not talking about vacationing or touring around, im talking about really living day to day life and interacting with locals, from the rural countryside to the glamorous metropolitan areas like shanghai



My mother has her parents and 6 brothers/sisters she still supports...Do you support any family members back home? Let me gues...your whole family is the lucky few that are rich or you cut ties with them cause you're cheap.

So traitor....did the average worker tell you he enjoys working $5-10 a day in shit conditions? You know about the bribery and corrpution amongst local officails right? Protection tax charged for business by the cops?

Seems to me you're the one that hasn't fully witness what's really going...instead you shit on your own country not demanding basic rights for them.

[impactX]

I agree^

but it is slowly progressing and improving, especially with all of the outside pressure for democratic reform

although there is censorship on the internet, when corrupted officials get caught doing dirty business, it still gets widely published

Name one instance where the PEOPLE/GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS responsible for the school buildings destruction (because the buildings don't meet standards) got charged or sentenced after the Sichuan earthquake. Hundreds of innocent children died as a result of this. Even the parents of the dead are trying to make the government take responsibility, but instead of doing that, the government pocketed millions of donations coming from all over the world.

our new generation is a lot more open minded and accustomed to the idea of democracy, as the values and attitude of the new breed change, so will governing policies and the status quo imo... maybe not at the same rate, but surely they will. keep in mind there is also a lot of internal fighting and politics within the communist party, although it may be easier to cover up... politicians still try to exploit and jump on scandals and corruption. also note china only opened its doors to the world 20 years ago

Anyone who wants to talk about corruption and politics should first read the book "Prisoner of the State" which is the secret journal of Premier Zhao Ziyang, leader of China at the time who sympathized with the student, got stripped of his power and got sentenced to house-arrest till death.

even democracy in the west has taken centuries to develop and form into what it is today, and historically has had more accomodating socio-economic circumstances that bring about democracy

No. When the leader of the country is supporting democratic movement (see Russia), democracy is bound to happen. But some people make unlawful decisions and made what happened happen.

what the international community needs to do is really try and understand how China operates, assist and guide it, not bash and condemn them on every chance they get

China is essentially still a developing country, and the western world seems to forget that and hold them to the same standards as other g8 countries and expect them to adpot western values overnight

whats scary is that with the enormous growth seen recently, china can flip the bird at the rest of the world and call its own shots, nobody can do anything about it either but bitch and whine

Stop using "developing country" as an excuse because China has been using that as an excuse for basically everything.

As you said, China's economic importance can influence the whole world; then it's time to act like a world leader and take responsibility of its actions.

[dna82]

India was also colonized by Britain for close to 2 centuries

copy and pasted off a pm from another rs'er

"money talks so whether it be so-called Communism or American Capitalism, such systems are just a means to an end of some sort open to interpretation. I'd say most of the idiots posting have no clue what happened before WW2 with the countries mentioned or what socio-economic impact historic events have played into shaping the world it is today"

I find it strange how the majority posting with opposing views are white or white washed asians that haven't lived and experienced life in China. and no im not talking about vacationing or touring around, im talking about really living day to day life and interacting with locals, from the rural countryside to the glamorous metropolitan areas like shanghai

by your theory, all the asian immigrints that move to Canada for a better life should hate the chinese gov't even more

i love how when anyone defends the chinese gov't they're automatically labelled as being "brain washed" or how they think the chinese gov't is perfect

think about it, its like if fresh off the boat chinese people started running their mouth like they know everything about the canadian gov't and telling canadians what ought to be

lol u must be blind if you think the chinese gov't has backtracked in the last 20 years

meet 6chr0nic4, the new ddagauge, SFUdropout, Fetched, now with twice the racism!

[m4k4v4li]

haha sure ill gladly take that tittle

As you said, China's economic importance can influence the whole world; then it's time to act like a world leader and take responsibility of its actions.

+1
but approaching it with a confrontational type of attitude the west does is not the way to get China to listen. this is seen with any other developing country the US feels the need to police in hopes they will adopt western values, IE in the middle east, do you actually believe the majority of local afghanis / iraqis respect and see US militants as heros there to liberate them? har har har. if anything there has been an even greater and deeper hatred that has been sparked post 9/11. money talks, when you have money you don't need to own up to your decisions, you can convince your citizens to wage a full out war on "terrorism" for political gains. but hey... we're the goodfellas

i see where all you guys posting are coming from and just because I play devils advocate doesn't mean I disagree

I think you need to be able to analyze something from both angles to truly understand it, I don't see how that equates to being brain washed or ignorant

I believe there will be significant political reform seen within our lifetime that will grant the average citizen more freedom, it seems many of you posting don't believe this evident in posts like how china has backtracked within the last 20 years
but hey... if it happens they have us to thank for liberating them right xD

oh ya im totally racist!! haha just because I wasn't raised to be politically correct in order not to offend strangers on the internet like you white boys have definately means im a racist! behind your mannerism lies the same discriminating, generalizing innate human nature. didn't someone make fob mainlander comments earlier? ZOMG THATS RACIST!! ME SO SHALLY

[goo3]

I agree^
but it is slowly progressing and improving, especially with all of the outside pressure for democratic reform

although there is censorship on the internet, when corrupted officials get caught doing dirty business, it still gets widely published


Except there's a ceiling on how high it goes.

If I was in gov't with that kinda power, believe me, there would be a floor beneath me too. Keeping those underlings in check is not in my job description. Fuck that shit. In fact, I hope they cheat more ppl. It takes the attention off me. And then I can use the media tell everybody what a jackass that guy was. It's like being a producer of a reality show.

These sort of faux-openness moves still favor me by a wide margin.

[fetched]

LOL.
Skinnypup just thanked someone for calling me racist, rather than give him infraction. I have never referenced race/racial comments in any of my comments but oh wells. Don't really care about that but it's just funny that I got infraction for calling Skinnypup "uneducated"=D
I guess DNA is Skinnypup's little bitch:haha:
The way you moderate is starting to look more like the Chinese Government :)
Love the people that support you, ban the people that tries to overthrow you =D

[fetched]

Fight Club Please.

[SkinnyPupp]

Just a reminder: Not a good idea to cut and paste from locked threads. Locked threads are locked. Leave them that way :)

[m4k4v4li]

lol wait why did he get banned

[Alphamale]

How about you stop being a fag, you information censoring motherfucker.

If anything RS should end the "ninja edits" from mods.

In regards to the backtracking comments, it's possible to say Canada is headed the same way in regards to it's humble social goals of the Trudeau era.